Byebye Latias! (An OU RMT, reached upper 40s on leaderboard)

[chewyourfood]

Have you tested Colbur Azelf for the lead position?
The on-site analysis for the set in the Strategy Pokedex is definitely worth reading.
Here's an RMT that goes into the advantages of the Colbur Berry set:
http://smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72915
You'll definitely find it helpful at least in the lead match-up against Tyranitar.

EDIT: I've also seen some good players using the Colbur set with Stealth Rock, Zen Headbutt, Fire Blast, and Explosion.

Aye, I have considered using Colbur Azelf lead. However I have been thinking of switching leads entirely because I am getting tired of everybody using gimmicky sets to kick my ass... (CB Azelf U-turn --> Flygon, CS Celebi U-turn --> Flygon, etc...)

Also, do you happen to know the EV spread for the Zen Headbutt Azelf?

 

[Doctor Who?]

I am concerned with whether or not Rotom-H could make a good replacement for Latias because T-bolt doesn't even ohko Infernape and Fire Blast has a good chance of a ohko after sr. Because of that I think that Rotom woudln't make a good replacement at all.

 

[Towelie]

cb azelf isn't a gimmick at all. zen headbutt/fire punch/u turn/and explosion make a great lead. u turn out of starmie winning speed tie hopefully, u turning on azelf to faster u turner. fire punch 2hkos metagross with occa or not. zen headbutt ohkos machamp. explosion kos heatran 100 % of the time which leaves them without rocks while you get to set them up later in the match. i don't really see how it's a gimmick; i use it on one of my best ou teams.

 

[chewyourfood]

I am concerned with whether or not Rotom-H could make a good replacement for Latias because T-bolt doesn't even ohko Infernape and Fire Blast has a good chance of a ohko after sr. Because of that I think that Rotom woudln't make a good replacement at all.

That is true, however I am rather reluctant to run Starmie over Rotom because without it, I could be torn apart by CS Flygon or even Aerodactyl.

cb azelf isn't a gimmick at all. zen headbutt/fire punch/u turn/and explosion make a great lead. u turn out of starmie winning speed tie hopefully, u turning on azelf to faster u turner. fire punch 2hkos metagross with occa or not. zen headbutt ohkos machamp. explosion kos heatran 100 % of the time which leaves them without rocks while you get to set them up later in the match. i don't really see how it's a gimmick; i use it on one of my best ou teams.

I was at a loss of what I should call it. To clear up the confusion, I get rather tired of seeing an Azelf lead and wondering if it is CB or something else, which is why I am considering replacing Azelf as a lead altogether.

But you know what they say, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe I'll test out CB Azelf myself.
EDIT: On second thought, CB Azelf wouldn't work out as much, considering that I have no faster U-turner to come in on the opposing Azelf after I have U-turned and the fact that I would have no Pokemon to lay Stealth Rock on the field.

 

[TubaKing]

cb azelf isn't a gimmick at all. zen headbutt/fire punch/u turn/and explosion make a great lead. u turn out of starmie winning speed tie hopefully, u turning on azelf to faster u turner. fire punch 2hkos metagross with occa or not. zen headbutt ohkos machamp. explosion kos heatran 100 % of the time which leaves them without rocks while you get to set them up later in the match. i don't really see how it's a gimmick; i use it on one of my best ou teams.

Dictionary.com:

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gim·mick
[gim-ik]
–noun 1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.

2. a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal: An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere.

3. a hidden mechanical device by which a magician works a trick or a gambler controls a game of chance.

4. Electronics Informal . a capacitor formed by intertwining two insulated wires.

Some gimmicks work. I don't think anyone in this thread is challenging the viability of Lead CB Azelf.
I've even seen Specs Heatran leads run Stealth Rock in the fourth move slot effectively.

Aye, I have considered using Colbur Azelf lead. However I have been thinking of switching leads entirely because I am getting tired of everybody using gimmicky sets to kick my ass... (CB Azelf U-turn --> Flygon, CS Celebi U-turn --> Flygon, etc...)

Also, do you happen to know the EV spread for the Zen Headbutt Azelf?

I don't know why I mentioned Colbur Berry on the Zen Headbutt set (although I think I'll do some experimenting with that idea later). With the Stealth Rock/Zen Headbutt/ Fire Blast/Explosion set, 4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE is probably the way to go with Life Orb and a Naive nature. Zen Headbutt cleanly OHKOs Machamp and Fire Blast even does 80.2% - 94.6% to Specially Defensive Skarmory (while the standard Taunt set takes 108.4% - 128.1%). Even though this set doesn't help all that much against TTar leads (even Explosion only does 78.5% - 92.3%), it can be great midgame.
This set and SDS's ColburElf (on-site) are what I would try-out before changing to an entirely different Pokemon.

 

[chewyourfood]

Dictionary.com:

Hide

gim·mick
[gim-ik]
–noun 1. an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.

2. a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal: An offer that good must have a gimmick in it somewhere.

3. a hidden mechanical device by which a magician works a trick or a gambler controls a game of chance.

4. Electronics Informal . a capacitor formed by intertwining two insulated wires.

Some gimmicks work. I don't think anyone in this thread is challenging the viability of Lead CB Azelf.
I've even seen Specs Heatran leads run Stealth Rock in the fourth move slot effectively.

<33 lol

I don't know why I mentioned Colbur Berry on the Zen Headbutt set (although I think I'll do some experimenting with that idea later). With the Stealth Rock/Zen Headbutt/ Fire Blast/Explosion set, 4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE is probably the way to go with Life Orb and a Naive nature. Zen Headbutt cleanly OHKOs Machamp and Fire Blast even does 80.2% - 94.6% to Specially Defensive Skarmory (while the standard Taunt set takes 108.4% - 128.1%). Even though this set doesn't help all that much against TTar leads (even Explosion only does 78.5% - 92.3%), it can be great midgame.
This set and SDS's ColburElf (on-site) are what I would try-out before changing to an entirely different Pokemon.

I definitely will try out this set. LO definitely puts me at a disadvantage in cases where Focus Sash is more helpful, but I think that LO's helpful aspects outweigh those of Focus Sash.

 

[Towelie]

ya i've also tried lo azelf as a lead, but with psychic/flamethrower/rocks/boom. psychic still ohkos machamp, but most importantly, provides a much better stab move than zen headbutt. another great thing is you don't have to split evs. even with no investment, a naive explosion with lo is killing a lot of shit.

 

[TubaKing]

ya i've also tried lo azelf as a lead, but with psychic/flamethrower/rocks/boom. psychic still ohkos machamp, but most importantly, provides a much better stab move than zen headbutt. another great thing is you don't have to split evs. even with no investment, a naive explosion with lo is killing a lot of shit.

The LO Azelf that I suggested has no and needs no investment in SpA. Fire Blast already does all it needs to do. Zen Headbutt is cool because it allows you to use Azelf midgame as a mixed attacker. I can't think of anything Psychic does that Zen Headbutt doesn't, but Zen Headbutt allows you to hit things like Blissey and Tentacruel much harder than a purely special set would.
Occa Berry Metagross is always 2HKOd by Naive LO Fire Blast no matter what your investment in SpA is. The same holds true for Occa Celebi, as well.
The 252 ATK EVs allow you to do cool shit like always OHKO Shuca Berry Heatran with Explosion (101.2% - 119.2% vs. 83% - 97.5%), as well as Physically Defensive Hippowdon (112.4% - 132.4% vs. 92.1% - 108.6%).
Not that specially based LO isn't viable too.
Fire Blast has a chance of OHKOing Lead Jirachi with 252 SpA, but with no investment, Fire Blast is always a 2HKO (not that LO Azelf should be staying in against LeadRachi anyway). The same holds true for Specially Defensive Skarmory (0 SpA needs to roll max damage after Skarmory has been hurt by Stealth Rocks to OHKO).
The most important thing in favor of 252 SpA, though, is that 252 SpA EVs are needed to guarantee the OHKO against Lum Berry Metagross. 0 SpA EV Azelf only does 81.3% - 96.2%. Well, it actually only takes 248 SpA EVs to KO 100% of the time, but I believe that my point is still understandable.
It seems to me that it all really depends on how well the team deals with individual threats. Because this team seems like it can handle Metagross, I think (and yes this is just my opinion) that Zen Headbutt and 252 Atk EVs are the way for this team to go.

 

[Towelie]

uh so you're saying that explosion doesn't allow you to hit them harder? it's fucking azelf. it's not going to be staying around long anyways, and who in their right minds would switch in a blissey on azelf? azelf commonly carries taunt and explosion so that's just retarded...

 

[chewyourfood]

who in their right minds would switch in a blissey on azelf? azelf commonly carries taunt and explosion so that's just retarded...

Just nitpicking here; I've seen many Blisseys come in on my Azelf. They either think that one, I don't have explosion, or that two, they can outsmart me and switch to a ghost type as I explode. Blissey admittedly does give me some problems, so on the chance that Blissey does come in on my Azelf, I think Zen HeadButt would just be a risk-free move, whether or not it stays in and I die to Seismic Toss/LO recoil, or if they switch to Rotom/Gengar/Dusknoir, etc.

 

[Towelie]

max jolly zen headbutt to standard wishbliss: 42% - 49.6%

case closed.

 

[TubaKing]

max jolly zen headbutt to standard wishbliss: 42% - 49.6%

case closed.

Only doing 42%-49.6% to Blissey is much better than uselessly sacrificing Azelf by Exploding on a Ghost switch-in. The thing about running max Attack, anyway, is that Explosion does noticeably more damage to physical walls than max Special Attack does. Psychic will do more to most Rotom-A that try to get cute by taking an Explosion, but that, to me, is less valuable than having a chance of taking on Blissey and Tentacruel (considering the possibility of flinch) than doing more to Rotom-A, which always wins, anyway.
I see your point and have also made arguments for max SpA and Psychic, but I feel that the benefits of max Atk (namely those beautiful, unexpected OHKOs to physical walls) and Zen Headbutt outweigh the benefits of max SpA (which are most importantly the OHKOs on SpD Skarmory and Lum Berry Metagross with Fire Blast).
You don't always have to go SR, then Explode right away, you know.
Azelf can have some utility later in the game.

Also, now that Mence is banned, it's probably time to start looking into replacements for him. Naturally the DDNite set is probably the closest thing you'll get to BulkyMence, but Kingdra may also have some sets worth testing.

 

[chewyourfood]

Also, now that Mence is banned, it's probably time to start looking into replacements for him. Naturally the DDNite set is probably the closest thing you'll get to BulkyMence, but Kingdra may also have some sets worth testing.

Yes, but now with the banning of Salamence, (And however cliche it sounds...) the metagame will change once more. That is why I think it is better to move on and try and take advantage of a Salamence-less game.

 

[Towelie]

what does max explosion ko that min doesnt? still kos hippo. (best physical wall in game) skarm and forry get raped by fire blast. scizor is still ohkod, but fb kos anyways. still kos crocune. what else d you need lol. and lo psychic does a FUCKTON more to defensive rotom. it also has perfect accuracy and that sexy SpDef drop rate. does more to GYARADOS WITHOUT HAVING TO BOOM. does way more to pert without having to boom. more to zappy. more to kingdra, more to gliscor, more to flygon, dnite, etc etc etc. i think psychic and max SpA wins