Cacturne (Full Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Jukain

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[Overview]

<p>When you first set your eyes upon NU's most popular cactus, you will likely wonder why anyone would use it. It has mediocre defenses and abysmal Speed&mdash;great offenses are not making up for that. If Cacturne's stats did not impress you, no one can place much of any blame on you, but you would be terribly mislead. Cacturne is one of the few Pokemon in NU that has been granted access to the coveted Spikes. This alone would skyrocket its usefulness tenfold, but just wait, there is still more to come. Cacturne also has STAB priority in Sucker Punch, which makes its Speed stat a second-rate concern. Armed with Swords Dance to boost its attack and Drain Punch to heal itself, Cacturne has the power of an armada in its arsenal. Cacturne even has a decent ability in Water Absorb, which makes it so Cacturne does not have to worry about being burned by Scald and can function as a pivot to absorb Water-type attacks. Water Absorb also helps against Aqua Jets from the likes of Samurott, Floatzel, and Basculin and wastes a turn of rain against rain teams, which can make all the difference in the world. Beware the cactus&mdash;otherwise it will coerce you into its dastardly ways and surprise you like the sucker you are.</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive Spiker
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Swords Dance / Substitute
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Sucker Punch
item: Focus Sash / Life Orb
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The focal point of Cacturne's niche is its ability to set up Spikes and hit hard while doing so, and this set is designed to take advantage of these traits. Therein lies its main advantage over Garbodor. At first, you might be confused as to the reason why one would even consider using both Spikes and Swords Dance on the same set. The answer to this is simply that there are some teams that setting up Spikes is not the correct course of action against. The time to analyze this is with Team Preview&mdash;utilize your capability to view the entirety of your opponent's team and look to see how many Pokemon Spikes are actually affecting. For example, if your opponent has a bunch of Pokemon that have the ability Levitate or a Flying typing, Spikes would not be the best course of action. Rather, setting up Swords Dance and punching some holes early in the match would be best. Against some teams, it might be wise to do both, such as against stall teams if you have a spinblocker waiting in the wings. This reward-reward dynamic removes any need to choose which types of teams Cacturne will do well against.</p>

<p>Before moving onto the meat of the moveset, it must be explained just how useful Spikes are for a plethora of teams. Stall teams, offensive Pokemon, and Cacturne alike can take advantage of Spikes in numerous different ways. The residual damage that they provide is simply invaluable. Swords Dance is an excellent move as well, allowing Cacturne to hit quite hard, break stall teams, and obtain some key KOs with Sucker Punch by virtue of its high base 115 Attack stat. Seed Bomb is Cacturne's main STAB move of choice, hitting an object of hatred for many physical attackers&mdash;Alomomola&mdash;hard as well as most Pokemon that do not resist it. Seed Bomb has enough power to 2HKO offensive Armaldo after Stealth Rock damage without Life Orb and 2HKOes regardless of Stealth Rock with Life Orb, which means that not even NU's best Rapid Spin user can switch into Cacturne freely. Sucker Punch occupies the final moveslot as a way to hit faster Pokemon. It can be unreliable, but being a STAB priority 80 Base Power move makes up for it. Sucker Punch allows Cacturne to perform intrinsically better against the majority of Pokemon that are commonly found leading and also to act as a revenge killer if it survives the early-game. Alternatively, Substitute can be used over Swords Dance&mdash;Cacturne loses the ability to sweep but gains protection from faster Pokemon, revenge killers, and burn status as well as an easier time predicting.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs are standard fare for an offensive Pokemon&mdash;maximum investment in Attack supplemented by an Adamant nature makes Cacturne pack a punch, while fully investing in Speed allows Cacturne to outrun many Pokemon near its Speed tier, such as Eelektross and Armaldo, that often choose not to invest in Speed. Focus Sash is the preferred item choice if Cacturne is intended to be used as a lead, particularly a suicide one. It allows Cacturne to take even the most powerful of attacks from full health guaranteed and set up, at the very least, two layers of Spikes in most scenarios. However, it is definitely not the only decent choice for an item. Substitute defeats the purpose of Focus Sash, so other items have greater ability alongside it. For instance, Life Orb provides greater power, while Leftovers can be used to set up more Substitutes. Alternatively, Cacturne can utilize a Dark Gem for a one-time boost to Sucker Punch. It has no negative repercussions to speak of, unless you count Cacturne not having an item once it is consumed as some sort of horrific tragedy.</p>

<p>When using this Cacturne set, there is one major piece of support that your team should include: a spinblocker. Regardless of the circumstances, it is a basic Pokemon law that Cacturne cannot set up a full three layers of Spikes twice in a battle. Heck, it has enough trouble doing so once. Golurk is the best choice, as it has excellent offensive and defensive synergy with Cacturne and can set up Stealth Rock to complete two-thirds of the entry hazard trifecta. However, the two do share an Ice weakness, so be sure to adequately cover that with the rest of your team. Although Golurk is certainly the top choice, it is not the only one. Misdreavus is another stellar option, as its defensive capabilities allow it to take on every Rapid Spin user and come out of the exchange the victor. Offensive Pokemon of course benefit immensely from Spikes, so Emboar, Rotom-S, and Bulk Up Braviary, among others, enjoy Cacturne's presence. Stall teams might prefer a Spikes user with more survivability, but Cacturne's unique offensive presence sometimes allows it to find a place on such teams. If you are not planning to lead with Cacturne and rather intend to use it later in the match after it has set up Spikes, a Rock-type, such as Regirock or Golem, is recommended for their great type synergy and ability to lure Water-type attacks for Cacturne to switch in on. What is so excellent about Cacturne is how well it stands on its own; generally, Cacturne has some method of getting around Pokemon that threaten it.</p>

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Drain Punch / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While Cacturne is usually seen setting up Spikes, it is not a one-trick pony&mdash;quite the opposite actually. This is the side of Cacturne that is lesser seen by the public but for that reason is all the more terrifying. Instead of being relegated to a supporting role with a slight offensive punch, this set allows Cacturne to unleash the untold force that is stockpiled inside of it. Cacturne's high base 115 Attack stat, especially with STAB Sucker Punch to utilize, is envied among NU sweepers. Since setting up Spikes need not be even a small thought, more time can be dedicated toward setting up Swords Dance and sweeping.</p>

<p>Cacturne's claim to fame as a sweeper is STAB Sucker Punch, and rightfully so. When boosted by Swords Dance, it is powerful enough to KO most Pokemon that do not invest much in Defense or resist it. However, its unreliability means that it is not an attack to carelessly throw around. This is where Seed Bomb comes in&mdash;it has a solid Base Power and is backed by STAB. Additionally, Seed Bomb gives Cacturne the ability to KO Alomomola easily, a feat many physical attackers only wish they could accomplish. This is furthered by Water Absorb, which makes Cacturne immune to Scald. Wrapping up the moveset is the reason that this Cacturne set performs so well&mdash;an extra move. With just one moveslot not taken up by Spikes, Cacturne becomes so much more of a threat offensively. Drain Punch does not hit very much coverage-wise, but it does hit Skuntank, has excellent neutral coverage, and provides a crucial source of recovery. Substitute is a great alternative, allowing Cacturne to avoid the perils of revenge killers that can tank a boosted Sucker Punch and have a safeguard against priority and status all in one fell swoop. Substitute also eases prediction significantly and thus makes it easier for Cacturne to set up.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs are extremely simple and fairly self-explanatory, but it may look strange to you that Cacturne is running a full 252 Speed EVs with such an abysmal base Speed. The reasoning for this is that there are quite a few Pokemon that would outspeed and demolish Cacturne without Speed investment, but cannot do the same to Cacturne with it. What might perhaps seem an insignificant choice in the item selection is actually very important to how Cacturne operates. Life Orb is the preferred item choice because of the additional punch it gives Sucker Punch, which is crucial for KOing many Pokemon that can KO Cacturne themselves if given the chance. Leftovers is another choice to provide more resilience against residual damage, but should really only be used with Substitute to produce more of them, as otherwise the power decrease is too significant to ignore.</p>

<p>Cacturne really does not need a whole ton in the way of partners, which is part of the beauty of this set. However, the one obstacle that it cannot break, Amoonguss, must be removed for Cacturne to sweep. Braviary and Rapidash are good choices for the job. Additionally, if running Substitute, a Pokemon that can beat Skuntank, such as Golurk, is needed. Golurk also has the benefit of excellent type synergy with Cacturne, being immune to its Fighting weakness and luring Water-type attacks for it to switch into. Golurk also sets up Stealth Rock and bluffs that Cacturne will be setting up Spikes due to being a spinblocker. This affects your opponent's play drastically in that they will bring in their Rapid Spin and Taunt users in an attempt to prevent Cacturne from setting up Spikes, something you can take immediate advantage of.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Something that might be on your mind right now is why there is no special or even mixed Cacturne with its base 115 Special Attack. The reason behind this is very simple&mdash;special sets do not have priority on their side, which makes physical sets better essentially by default. However, this is not to say that special sets cannot do well; quite the opposite. If running a specially-orientated set, Cacturne has the option of running Giga Drain, which provides the coveted combination of power and recovery all in one move. This alone makes special sets viable, and access to Dark Pulse and Focus Blast for coverage further bolsters their effectiveness. Perhaps the best of Cacturne's special offerings is a Nasty Plot setup sweeper, which would function in a similar fashion to the Swords Dance set sans priority. Its spamming STAB move of choice having recovery gives it more opportunities to set up. A Choice Specs set is also viable, and access to Switcheroo gives it a decent niche. However, it should be emphasized that the lack of recovery is heavily debilitating. Other Choice sets are also viable, including a Choice Band one that utilizes a powerful Sucker Punch and a Choice Scarf set that cripples walls with Switcheroo and does not have to worry about an abysmal Speed stat.</p>

<p>Yache Berry is a solid choice for an item on either listed set, as it allows Cacturne to tank an Ice Beam from Samurott or Ludicolo and set up Swords Dance or Spikes. This is especially relevant because neither can hit Cacturne for much damage outside of Megahorn for the former. It is little help when Cacturne is low on health, but at least Drain Punch can somewhat make up for that issue. Another scenario in which it would be useful is&mdash;bear in mind that this is very specific but can be applied to many other scenarios&mdash;not being KOed by a Sucker Punch from Skuntank after surviving an Ice Beam from Ludicolo. A Substitute + Focus Punch set can work decently, but Drain Punch is superior in every essential way and does not take up two moveslots. However, it does ease prediction significantly, so bear that in mind. Cacturne has two other moves that it can potentially use. Destiny Bond might seem a great option, but Cacturne is just too slow to utilize it properly without Focus Sash. Synthesis is the other option for some always useful recovery, but it is generally a wasted moveslot that could be better spent on a setup move, coverage move, or Substitute. Finally, before you jump for joy and rejoice that Cacturne has access to the excellent moves Encore and Bullet Seed, realize that they are banned due to Sand Veil being banned from all tiers OU and below, thus rendering them unavailable for Cacturne's use.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Despite its many positives, the fact of the matter is that Cacturne is quite easy to defeat, much to the dismay of its users but to the great joy of its opponents. The best way to conquer it is Amoonguss, who walls it to death even without investment in bulk&mdash;which it usually has&mdash;and can OHKO with STAB Sludge Bomb. Weezing is another solid answer to Cacturne, walling it to the ends of the earth and easily KOing with STAB Sludge Bomb or a simple Fire Blast or Flamethrower. Armaldo can Rapid Spin Cacturne's Spikes away and OHKO with X-Scissor, though it must watch out for switching into Seed Bomb if it is an offensive variant, as they are 2HKOed by it after Stealth Rock damage without a Life Orb backing it and 2HKOes regardless of Stealth Rock with a Life Orb backing it. Shell Smash Torkoal, NU's other resident Rapid Spin users, can easily KO Cacturne and ruin all of its hard work with Rapid Spin. Of course, neither Rapid Spin user is much of an annoyance when Cacturne lacks Spikes. Taunt users are an annoyance to any variant of Cacturne, as the move prevents the use of both Spikes and Swords Dance.</p>

<p>There are many other ways of penetrating Cacturne's thorny yet thin hide. Braviary comes on the forefront, being one of the best Pokemon in NU, resisting Seed Bomb, and having the ability to set up all over Cacturne's shadowy face with Substitute and Bulk Up. Other offensive answers include Fighting-types, which resist Sucker Punch. These include Emboar, who has two STABs that obliterate Cacturne, and Sawk. Bug-types, such as Pinsir with STAB X-Scissor, can do the job as well. Rotom-S, especially bulky variants, are a pain for Cacturne to deal with. Samurott outspeeds Cacturne and is not OHKOed by +2 Sucker Punch without a boost from Life Orb and entry hazard support. Samurott can KO in return with a 4x super effective Megahorn. Haunter can play tricks with Cacturne with a Substitute and Sucker Punch and KO in retaliation with a powerful STAB Sludge Bomb. Skuntank actually walls Cacturne completely if it does have Drain Punch on its moveset and can easily OHKO with STAB Poison Jab. Lastly, there are two Pokemon&mdash;Altaria and Gurdurr&mdash;that can set up all day in front of Cacturne and KO with boosted attacks. Overall, beating Cacturne is pretty easy, but be sure to have an answer to it or be prepared to incur its mighty and thorny wrath.</p>
 
Sand Veil is probably getting banned which is the major issue with most of these sets, and the fact that Encore and Bullet Seed are going to be illegal soon.
 
i don't think this is the right time to revamp it. Some sets may be altered or changed after the OU vote going on right now. So waiting til that is over makes a lot more sense.
 

jake

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agreeing on the above. also, even if sand veil is miraculously not banned, a lot of these sets can be easily condensed down. for example, the encore + spikes and sd + spikes are almost exactly the same set but have a single move difference. i don't think the playstyle is different enough to separate them, so you should merge them (and slash encore before sd, imo). subsd shouldn't use bullet seed either, as water absorb is much much more beneficial for that sort of set and the only stuff that you need bullet seed for is like golem. drain punch should also be slashed behind seed bomb on that one.

anyway, i agree this should be held off until the OU vote goes through, at the very least.
 

breh

強いだね
You might want to merge the bottom two sets; there's a move's worth of difference between the two.

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Sucker Punch
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Drain Punch / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Mention that Drain Punch can be run over Seed Bomb and you're set.

I'm not sure why you're running so much speed. Why the hell do you need to outspeed, for example, Samurott, which cannot do anything to you but waste your Sucker Punch pp and (if applicable) sub? I can't help but feel like the maximum you reaaaally need is enough to get Golem at best.
 

Jukain

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rott has megahorn. you can't hit it with seed bomb if you don't outspeed. and huh i do suppose i can merge the sets, its not like most sub setup sweepers in that it doesn't play TOO differently.

qc input?
 

breh

強いだね
afaik, samurott tends to run max speed more often than not; you OHKO it with +2 sucker punch with LO and need rocks for a good shot with lefties.
 

Jukain

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okay so i talked to ebeast on irc and he told me stuff i should do so i merged the sd sets and finished the skelly. qc checks please!
 
leftovers... i've always looked at that as a meh ability on non-substitute cacturne

cacturne is dying really quickly and honestly a one time use item such as dark gem, focus sash, or yache berry accomplishes more than extra 6.25% recovery

what do you guys think of this? all three of these items should at least be somewhere on the cacturne analysis. i'm really not sure about the item area on cacturne... i'll test it out more if i have a chance
 

Jukain

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okay dtc, here's what i got. i really like the sound of yache on full sd so you can set up on bulky waters with ice beam and ko them. that's getting ac for now, because i'm a bit skeptical and need more input. i'd like some general input on items for sd. focus sash is good on spikes, in fact i'll put it in with dark gem as the third item slash and life orb as the second.
 
Jolly is worth a mention on every set. With it, you outspeed Samurott with neutral nature, and OHKO with SB. Actually, I think Jolly should be the first nature on the Spiker set, but that's subjective, I guess. Finally, Destiny Bond is pretty cool on the Spiker set, Going down with another mon after two layers of spikes is just glorious (with Focus Sash, of course).
 

Jukain

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@lord of the fireflies: max speed samurott outspeeds you by a lot regardless of the nature. oh yeah and about destiny bond, i'll put it in oo but cacturne is really too slow to properly take advantage of destiny bond.

EDIT: also you ko samurott with sucker punch.
 

marilli

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If you want good performance on something that dies a lot like Cacturne, Life Orb works for 'consistent' performance as in it keeps on doing things as long as it's alive. Dark Gem and Yache are both awesome, etc, Focus Sash is certainly usable.

I wouldn't mind if Life Orb is the 'standard' item as in it literally is the choice to go if you don't have anything else in mind. All 3 are 'situational' in the strictest sense of the word, though that does not mean that they don't work or anything. Though Focus Sash doesn't exactly float my boat per se, mainly because if you're trying to lead with Focus Sash spiker Glalie is arguably a better choice with its speed, etc. If not leading, there's a great chance that Focus Sash will be a completely wasted item slot.
 

ebeast

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For the Offensive Spiker set I would have it set up like this:

[SET]
name: Offensive Spiker
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Seed Bomb
move 4: Sucker Punch
item: Focus Sash / Life Orb
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Focus Sash and Life Orb both work the best as the item of choice for Cacturne. Sash allowing Cacturne to get in an extra layer or safely set up a Swords Dance if needed. Life Orb provides Cacturne with raw power and allows it to use its offensive presence to force switches and get off Spikes. Both of these items don't fit very well with Substitute, however I think that Dark Gem and Substitute together should be mentioned in the AC of this set. Dark Gem gives Cacturne a one-time superboosted Sucker Punch without suffering from the recoil that would make Substitute less convenient to have. Also emphasize Golurk as the spinblocker of choice as Cacturne and it have good defensive synergy and Golurk is also capable of setting up Stealth Rock. (Mention that they have good defensive synergy but share an Ice-type weakness)

Yache Berry should be mentioned as well in the AC of the Offensive Spiker set and in the AC of Swords Dance as well. Special Samurott and Ludicolo are very prevalent that having the ability to take their Ice Beam and Swords Dance up is excellent. This works even better in the case of Samurott who cannot Aqua Jet you anymore due to Water Absorb as you try to land a Sucker Punch off. While the Berry won't help when you're too low on health Cacturne at least has Drain Punch to make up for it a little bit. That's another thing, I would place the order of the 4th move as Drain Punch / Substitute while changing the items accordingly to Life Orb / Leftovers on that.

If you're going to mention Scarf Cacturne in Other Options you should probably mention Choice Specs and Nasty Plot as well as Cacturne does have nice moves to go along with it. Mention Specs should be using Giga Drain / Dark Pulse / Focus Blast / Switcheroo. (Actually I just finished talking about this on IRC and Specs might be worth a set. We'll get back to you on that)

Once you get all of this added in, I'll come back and give you a QC stamp!
 
list of some things, just what i have at the top of my head atm, check this post later in case i edit more stuff in

  • destiny bond works a lot better with focus sash, also separates it from glalies better (way better than explosion imo)
  • note the ice weakness between golurk and cacturne
  • more examples of offensive mons that benefit from spikes such as emboar, rotom-s
  • in checks and counters, pinsir doesn't resist sucker punch; in fact, pinsir gets OHKOd most of the time after rocks by dark gem sucker punch
  • mention of synthesis in OO cause recovery is always cool
  • put yache on sd set, like you stated you would
  • i dont know if yache should be mentioned on ac on the spikes set, other qc members can make that decision
  • put gurdurr in checks and counters and how it sets up all over it
 

Jukain

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EBeast and Annoyer your stuff is implemented (congrats on QC Annoyer btw). Annoyer, js the last bullet was already in c&c.
 
sorry didn't notice gurdurr
In the spikes set, add that offensives armaldo gets 2hkod by seed bomb after rocks with focus sash and that it gets 2hkod with life orb regardless of rocks most of the time
also, pinsir doesnt get megahorn (;_;), but still OHKOs with x-scissor
This looks good

[qc]1/3[/qc]
 
You overstate Water Absorb's usefulness. It's really only useful for avoiding Scald burns from Alomomomola, not getting effected by Aqua Jet so it can Sucker Punch Samurott / Floatzel / Basculin, an switching into a Water-type attack and switching right back out.

I'm really not a fan of Yache Berry Cacturne. One time use items are cool on a Pokemon like Cacturne, but why are you not using Focus Sash? Some really powerful Ice-type attacks OHKO you anyways while Focus Sash allows you to survive one of those really powerful attacks and more. I think it should be moved to OO. Lets see what other QC members think.

I think you should explain the first set a little bit more. Someone new might be confused when they see a set with both Spikes and Swords Dance. Talk about how using both on the same set allows you to pick and choose which one you want to set up against a team. Some battles setting up Spikes is the better choice while other battles you may be able to sweep with Swords Dance.

Also, Pinsir does not have Megahorn; it only has X-Scissor.

I'll stamp this once QC decides the placement of Yache Berry Cacturne.
 
This is my argument for Yache Berry Cacturne mentioned in AC on the Swords Dance set. Yache Berry allows it to still take an Ice Beam so it can set up and sweep while also giving it more HP to take weaker attacks such as taking a Sucker Punch from Skuntank after taking an Ice Beam from Ludicolo (specific but not too uncommon) which is something that no other item can do. Since it will usually be used later in the game as a late-game sweeper, Focus Sash will be negated by any form of hazards that will usually be up later in the game. It also helps against random Hidden Power Ices I guess.

In my opinion, Focus Sash is usually the better option on the Spikes set 99% of the time since it is used early game where hazards aren't on the field and so it can take all powerful attacks that would normally OHKO it.

Overall, I think Yache Berry should be placed in OO since it's not that great of an option (outclassed by Focus Sash most of the time), but it still has a good and unique use on Cacturne.

Also, Water Absorb is also extremely useful against Rain teams where wasting one turn of Rain Dance can make the difference.
 

ebeast

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Ya, Yache Berry is the item of choice if you don't want to go the suicide Spikes route with Sash and want to be able to take an Ice Beam later on in the match. The usefulness of Yache Berry decreases as Cacturne gets worn down by hazards and resisted hits and isn't as good of an option as it once was since Cacturne lost access to Encore and doesn't get free turns anymore. A non-suicide route that can deal with Ludicolo is probably better off with Dark Gem. So put Yache Berry in OO and consider this:

[QC]2/3[/QC]
 

Jukain

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thanks for the input guys, yache berry is now moved to oo and I added the note about Water Absorb Annoyer.
 

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