Can we talk about Stealth Rock?

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#76
"People don't take my arguments seriously, so here you have some strawman and a whacky pro-SR conspiracy"

That's probably contributing to your problem!!!
Funny, I'm taking flak from a side who is using "get gud, we already had sr for 3 gens why start now, i hate theorymoning but let me dabble in some of my own". My problem is you are not arguing, you are using extremes, unfounded elitism, extreme results of one type of match/playstyle to paint an untrue picture and being generally dismissive of anything you don't like and cherry picking what you quote. It is a wonder I'm even replying to you now.

Did you actually read that thread? Because I did. The first 3 pages were decent, after that it turns into tons of "Sash spam is obnoxious", "Hurricane spam is too good", "Hail and Sun are better than Rain" (6__6), "apparently Kyurem-B, Volcarona and Dragonite are really strong without rocks in the field" and "this beat me on the ladder, so it's really good". There are 5 pages arguing about Moltres vs Articuno. Last two pages are about Ninjask BPing to Kyurem and Jirachi, and the last few posts were people complaining about bad players spamming Charizard on the ladder.

Someone got #1, #2 and #3 on the ladder with a standard-looking rain team, that is weak as shit to common OU Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Terrakion, Keldeo, Jellicent (quite literally 6-0d by this, unless Hurricane hax), etc. It says a lot about the ladder when one person manages to get the top 3 spots, and it is much worse when they do it with such a mediocre team.

There is a handful of decent posts, but it's nothing to write home about. Personally, I wouldn't use that thread or ladder to support any argument.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/can-we-talk-about-stealth-rock.3585730/page-3#post-7087629

?

That's post can be summarized in one line "There are more SR users than Spin and Defog users. Also, Rapid Spin can fail vs ghosts". Things that post conveniently ignore:
Ah yes one liners. Apparently that was a long post so let me put it in simple words, SR can effortlessly be set up, has numerous benefits and has little to few risks or chances of failure with many pokemon who can use it being top tier, removing it on the other hand has larger risks involved, can be foiled much easier and the pokemon trying to remove it have higher chances to be eliminated and end up only removing SR and there are much less common.

- Every single one of the Pokemon mentioned does more than just Defog or Spin. In fact, some of them don't even need to run those moves
Did I say they have to run them? I'm saying that these are the mons that can use them, did you even read the post?

- Defog or Spin isn't a must in every team. Playing around SR isn't gamebreaking if your team is decent
Sure, just remove a couple of worthy pokemon from consideration, a few types and don't use this playstyle if you don't plan on removing SR in the first place, easy right? Amazing really...

Love these weird ass conspiracies that can be shut down in 10 sec
What I said is true, thread gets opened to discuss SR, thread get ignored for no reason with "promises" to seriously look into this the next gen, next gen arrives, SR thread reopens, gets ignored, etc.

I'm calling this the smogon cycle, if sonic fans can have one why shouldn't we?

nobody would have cared about it for more than 2 days?
LOL, if X5Dragon and everyone in this thread disappears right now, you would still have an entire community to answer to.

Did you actually see the replay you linked?

Nothing is being blown out of the water by two obviously mediocre players using mediocre teams. Rest Cobalion and Florges (in OU) vs the "I hope my opponent isn't using a single wallbreaker" stall. If you actually check that replay, you'll realize they don't know how to pressure each other teams at all and it's basically switching around with no actual purpose. I mean, one of the dudes took 80 turns to realize Jirachi could setup SR whenever it wanted and that Defog Skarm was just going to get pp stalled, and that was after PP stalling his own Sableye, which should had won that game in less than 200 turns.

?___?
First of all, it took 1100+ turns for one mon to die, if they wanted as in the case of ABR vs. Tele, it could have lasted much more, and there many replays to post across generations proving that SR does not have that much impact in reducing so called "too long" matches especially in stall vs stall matches, where was this so called pressure to finish this quickly? Ajwf says there is no attacking incentive and without SR it would be 0, in reality the attacking incentive is to the win the game by killing all 6 pokemons on the field, it is as simple as that, trying to justify SR to finish games "faster" and reduce these type of matches is beyond absurd.

Edit: Unless a ruling is made regarding an SR-less suspect ladder or any serious effort to put facts into arguments I'm done with this for good, it's been 3 gens already. I'll leave the floor to those who want to espouse elitism and find new excuses to avoid doing the right thing, enjoy.
 
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Kink

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#77
Funny, I'm taking flak from a side who is using "get gud, we already had sr for 3 gens why start now, i hate theorymoning but let me dabble in some of my own". My problem is you are not arguing, you are using extremes, unfounded elitism, extreme results of one type of match/playstyle to paint an untrue picture and being generally dismissive of anything you don't like and cherry picking what you quote. It is a wonder I'm even replying to you now.
Wow you need to take a step back friend. I find it absolutely REMARKABLE that you can ignore posts from uses that are clearly involved in policy for this site in one way or another, bunch them up all together and call it Elitism. Eo mentioned a few posts ago to stop insulting people for providing logical reasons to your comments. Logic is becoming less of your problem, and pubic relations is becoming a much higher one. You need to understand that the people who lead tiers are the ones you'll ultimately need to convince. You don't change things in an organization by yelling at its leaders and calling us elitists. All of us put in a reasonable amount of work/effort to get where we are today, and part of that has been examining and learning the meta we represent inside and out. I can tell you with 100% certainty that Stealth Rock is not Broken in ORAS UU. You're allowed to have an opinion on that, but moving from a strictly epistemological perspective, the onus of changing the status quo is always on the person/group committed to the change. If you disagree with that, then you need to make another post in a separate thread discussing Aldaron's tiering framework. However, you'll be very hard-pressed to find people who agree with you. Aldaron is a really fucking smart guy, and Smogon's policy has been evolving for over ten years. We do things a certain way, this way makes sense, and if you still disagree you need to provide evidence and not conjecture/emotional claims.

Ah yes one liners. Apparently that was a long post so let me put it in simple words, SR can effortlessly be set up, has numerous benefits and has little to few risks or chances of failure with many pokemon who can use it being top tier, removing it on the other hand has larger risks involved, can be foiled much easier and the pokemon trying to remove it have higher chances to be eliminated and end up only removing SR and there are much less common.
SR cannot be effortlessly set up. This is just wrong. You saying wrong things in a matter-of-fact way doesn't make them right. If you need to understand why this is wrong, I am happy to take you through a page-by-page, step-by-step analysis. The crux is that good players know when Rocks are coming and can find ways to optimize their response to this. It's basic high-level play to anticipate rocks and start to work around it, as well as every other foundational element in our current framework of Pokemon. Again, if you are confused, simply say "I am confused" and I will explain to you. Don't attempt to counter this argument because you cannot; it is fundamentally true that good players can see a SR user and will respond appropriately to produce optimal results.

Did I say they have to run them? I'm saying that these are the mons that can use them, did you even read the post?
Hikari's point is that role compression is GOOD for mons, and similar to my page 1 example of Blissey having rocks increases its dynamism and versatility, as does this to every SR user in the game. It is an added dimension that makes skill more important. Again, if you have trouble working around SR in UU, I am happy to assist you in developing your skills as a battler and teambuilder.

Sure, just remove a couple of worthy pokemon from consideration, a few types and don't use this playstyle if you don't plan on removing SR in the first place, easy right? Amazing really...
You're obviously missing Hikari's point. Salamence doesn't need to run Defog in order to be effective, but it can. Added dynamism contributes to versatile tiering.

What I said is true, thread gets opened to discuss SR, thread get ignored for no reason with "promises" to seriously look into this the next gen, next gen arrives, SR thread reopens, gets ignored, etc.

I'm calling this the smogon cycle, if sonic fans can have one why shouldn't we?
You're presupposing that all the previous incarnations of this thread/argument have been logically sound with evidence provided. As Eo said, stop looking at those previous incarnations and start only arguing about this one.
LOL, if X5Dragon and everyone in this thread disappears right now, you would still have an entire community to answer to.
We don't cater to the majority, we cater to tournament and high-level players. The entire community would have to understand that we do things the way we do. Those that stay are welcome to join us and have a good time. Those that are just going to criticize everything we do without providing evidence of a better system with our tiering culture in mind eventually get ignored. I don't have to listen to 100 bad arguments as much as I have to listen to 1 good one.

First of all, it took 1100+ turns for one mon to die, if they wanted as in the case of ABR vs. Tele, it could have lasted much more, and there many replays to post across generations proving that SR does not have that much impact in reducing so called "too long" matches especially in stall vs stall matches, where was this so called pressure to finish this quickly? Ajwf says there is no attacking incentive and without SR it would be 0, in reality the attacking incentive is to the win the game by killing all 6 pokemons on the field, it is as simple as that, trying to justify SR to finish games "faster" and reduce these type of matches is beyond absurd.
Yeah I also looked at that game, they're terrible players and its their own fault that the match went that long. I wouldn't call that the fault of stall, SR, or any matter of component, but rather their skill level. This claim does not support your argument and is not evidence.
Edit: Unless a ruling is made regarding an SR-less suspect ladder or any serious effort to put facts into arguments I'm done with this for good, it's been 3 gens already. I'll leave the floor to those who want to espouse elitism and find new excuses to avoid doing the right thing, enjoy.
Again, you don't seem to get it. There won't be a ruling, there will be a consensus which you have been unable to produce due to unnecessary micro-insults, emotional claims, or simply poor argumentation. No one here dislikes you personally or any of that sort, we're just not convinced in the slightest. Sorry if that reality is too harsh for you.
 
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atomicllamas

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#80
Confirming the pro SR conspiracy exists, the SS forum is filled with threads of pictures of rocks which we praise everyday. Additionally I hacked PDC's account to say that and am locking the thread to silence all opposition.

Jokes (or are they?) aside this thread has gotten pretty circular and declined in quality pretty hard over the past 2 pages. There is your conclusion from the OU council (I assume PDC's speaking for the council, I guess I could be wrong though).
 
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