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Canine Carnage

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by TGMD, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    998
    Canine Carnage
    A BW2 OU sand team by Doom
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    Introduction
    Hello everybody. I originally built this team after being inspired by my friend: Ripamon, he was using an offensive core of Stoutland and Magnezone. Later on in the year, I was trying to think of team ideas for round 1 of the World Cup Of Pokemon and I decided to give that core a shot. The idea of the team was to trap the steel types that resisted Stoutland’s STAB with Magnezone then devastate teams with Stoutland. I proceeded to win a lot of test battles and then my WCOP battle against Cicada and I was thoroughly impressed with the team. Since then, the team has adapted to the BW2 metagame rather well and has peaked #1 on showdown multiple times with various alts. I’ve really enjoyed using this team and it’s probably the best team I’ve ever created.
    Teambuilding Process
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    [​IMG]
    I obviously needed sand for Stoutland to function properly, so I had a choice between Tyranitar and Hippowdon. I chose Hippowdon because Stoutland and Magnezone were weak to fighting and adding another fighting weakness didn’t sound very appealing, Hippowdon is also a far more reliable sand inducer because unlike Tyranitar, Hippowdon can’t be trapped and killed by Dugtrio.
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    I then added the offensive core of Stoutland and Magnezone.
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    I was already seeing that there was going to be some problems with rain-boosted water type moves, fighting type moves and Sub Toxic Gliscor, so, I took Heist’s suggestion of HP Ice Celebi (it also had the ability to keep momentum up and pivot to Magnezone with U-Turn.)
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    I knew I couldn’t always rely on Stoutland because it’s only good under the sand; I wanted something that was fast, strong, and could really take advantage of Magnezone’s Steel removal abilities, I chose Latios. Latios was a secondary water and fighting resist, it could also check sun and was a good offensive answer to the likes of Terrakion.
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    I wanted something that could break through the walls Stoutland struggled with, such as Gliscor, I originally tried a Sub SD Rock Gem Terrakion, but then I realised how much Dugtrio constricted me (it could trap Magnezone, Terrakion, and if it was at full health against Stoutland locked into Return, then it could kill it with Reversal.) I decided to go with Mamoswine, it could still break through the walls Stoutland couldn’t, it didn’t care about Dugtrio, it could revenge kill dragons if I somehow lost the weather war and it loved Magnezone’s removal of Forretress, Skarmory etc. This was the version of the team I used in the WCOP.
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    With the introduction of BW2 some changes needed to be made. Tornadus-t was a ridiculously huge threat to the team and Genesect was pretty threatening as well so I replaced Celebi with a Specially Defensive Rotom-W. I knew that if I did this I would lose my Sub Toxic Gliscor check, so I put Icicle Spear on Mamoswine.
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    Latios was my best check to a few of the new threats such as: Keldeo, Techniloom, Thundurus-T etc. And Latios had nowhere near enough bulk to take repeated hits from them, so, I replaced Latios with a Life Orb Tank Latias. This also aided with giving me a bulkier rain / sun check and taking down Lucario. This is the final version of the team.
    Team
    ----------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Hippowdon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Whirlwind
    - Slack Off
    Hippowdon plays an incredibly important role; it’s here to set up sand to help Stoutland wreak havoc on the opposing team. I chose Hippowdon as my sand inducer instead of Tyranitar because, unlike Tyranitar, Hippowdon has no problem dealing with Dugtrio, making it a more reliable sand inducer, epspecially with all the Genesect / Dugtrio teams running around, and overall it has much better synergy with the rest of my team. Hippowdon performs other important roles too, such as phazing, setting up Stealth Rock, and checking a large portion of the biggest physical threats in the current metagame. The EV spread is just the standard Physically Defensive Hippowdon set, maximized physical bulk and 12 Special Defense Evs to survive 2 hits of Hidden Power [Ice] from Expert Belt Landorus after Stealth Rock damage.
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    [​IMG]
    Dog (Stoutland) (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Return
    - Superpower
    - Wild Charge
    - Pursuit
    Stoutland is the focal point of this team and is without a doubt the MVP. Stoutland’s somewhat recent drop to RU would suggest it’s an average Pokemon, and without sand up this is most certainly true, but under sand it is quite the opposite. Stoutland hits an almost unrivalled 518 speed with the help of Sand Rush, coupled with decent attack, bulk, coverage and a Choice Band makes Stoutland a force to be reckoned with in OU. This is the standard moveset and EV spread, max Speed and Attack, the 4 remaining Evs were put into Special Defense, so that Genesect obtains an Attack boost rather than a Special Attack boost, this is very important because giving a Rock Polish Genesect a Special Attack boost and a free set up opportunity could spell doom for me late-game.
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    Magnezone @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 144 HP / 252 SAtk / 112 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Volt Switch
    - Sleep Talk
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon
    Magnezone traps the steels that stop Stoutland from spamming Return. Choice Specs Magnezone is definitely the best set for this team, seeing as I lack a spinner it’s incredibly important that I obliterate the likes of Ferrothorn as quickly as possible, so that it lays down as little entry hazards as possible. Ferrothorn under the rain is often 4HKOd by Choice Scarf or Sub Charge Beam Magnezone, if Magnezone does get Leech Seeded and Ferrothorn has Protect, then Ferrothorn will most likely be able to out-stall Magnezone and cause problems for Stoutland later on in the match, whereas Specs will usually 2HKO under the rain and they’ll get up 2 layers of Spikes at best. I used to run Thunder in the second move slot to mutilate rain, but I found myself a bit too weak to Breloom so I switched to Sleep Talk. If Magnezone has trapped the steels I need trapped and I don’t need it anymore (and it’s not within Mach Punch KO range); I can try and predict the Spore, switch to Magnezone and then Sleep Talk the next turn, if I get Hidden Power [Fire] or Flash Cannon I can OHKO Breloom, if I get Volt Switch then I get a free switch to either Mamoswine or Latias. I run enough Speed Evs to outpace Skarmory and slow Scizor, max Special Attack, and then the rest in HP to take hits better.
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    Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 32 SAtk / 228 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split
    - Thunder Wave
    Specially Defensive Rotom-W is an amazing set that I’ve been using since the introduction of BW2, It’s role is to counter rain (it’s my main water resist and it’s 2nd only to Jirachi as the best Tornadus-T counter), it also works as an amazing defensive pivot and it’s monstrous Special Defense allows it to take almost any Special hit. I’ll almost always lead with Rotom-W, it can Volt Switch out and give me momentum from turn 1, and it’s not really afraid of anything other than some of the biggest physical powerhouses in OU, most of which are taking out by Hippowdon with ease. The EV spread gives Rotom-W enough special bulk to survive a Specs Draco Meteor from Hydreigon and then Pain Split most of its health back, the rest is in Special Attack to get the guarenteed OHKO on Gliscor with Hydro Pump. Thunder Wave replaced Will-O-Wisp, suggested by Pocket to help against Volcarona and Genesect.
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    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 74 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Recover
    This is one of my favourite Latias sets, it is very similiar to Life Orb Latios, but it has far more bulk and suprise factor. Latias' role in the team is to help check Rain, Sun, fighting-types, and put holes in the opponents team, to help Stoutland clean up late-game. The EV spread gives Latias max speed to help against the likes of Terrakion and Keldeo, the HP investment gives Latias a good amount of bulk and a Life Orb recoil number, the rest is heapend into Special Attack for maximum killing potential. I chose to use Psyshock over Hidden Power [Fire] because I already have Magnezone for steel types and Latias is my main check to the likes of Keldeo, Virizion etc and being able to get the OHKO on them no matter how buffed they are is incredibly helpful. Also, being able to deal decent damage to Blissey, and being able to use a STAB move that dosen't half Latias' Special Attack is pretty great as well. Faster Latias was originally suggested by White Symphoni, current EV spread suggested by PenguinX (8 less EVs in HP and 8 more in Special Attack to get a Life Orb Recoil number.)
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    Mamoswine (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    IVs: 29 HP
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Spear
    - Earthquake
    - Superpower
    Mamoswine's role is to expunge some of the walls that give Stoutland a problem, Mamoswine also takes pressure off Stoutland to revenge kill pokemon like Salamence, Dragonite, Garchomp etc. This is important because if the opponent has a rain / sun / hail inducer and they somehow manage to KO Hippowdon before the weather war is over then I lose my revenge killer and my physical wall, then pokemon like Garchomp can easily sweep through Rotom-W, Latias, and Magnezone. Mamoswine is also great at revenge killing the therian forms, (Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Landorus-T) which is very helpful if sand isn't up. Mamoswine only has 29 HP EVs because 29 HP IVs decreases Life Orb recoil. A Mamoswine with max HP IVs has 361 HP, so it takes 36 HP from recoil, but with 29 HP IVs it has 359 HP, meaning it loses only 35 HP. This means that max HP Mamoswine has 2 more HP at the start but then it loses 1 extra point per turn, so after 2 turns of Life Orb recoil they'll be at the same health and from each turn onwards the 29 IV Mamoswine will lose 1 less point every turn. The EV spread is super standard, max attacking power and speed. I run Jolly over Adamant for a few reasons but mostly for Breloom, if I ran Adamant nature, Jolly Breloom's Mach Punch would "outspeed" Mamoswine's Ice Shard and I'd probably lose my Mamoswine, Breloom is far too much of a threat to this team to not account for every possible nature. Mamoswine has Icicle Spear over Icicle Crash, and although I usually prefer the latter; I switched to Icicle Spear to significantly decrease the threat level of Sub Toxic Gliscor.
    ----------------------------
    Threat List
    [​IMG]Breloom - This thing is incredibly dangerous unless I predict it correctly, sleeping Magnezone can beat it with Sleep Talk, Mamoswine outspeeds and Ice Shards, Latiss can tank a hit or 2 and outspeeds and Psyshocks.
    [​IMG]Genesect - Scarf variants are annoying, but they're manageable, the real problems are Rock Polish variants. It's usually blatantly obvious whether it's Rock Polish or not based on the way the opponent plays it, I just need to play around it, keep Rotom-W healthy, get rocks up early and try to make sure it dosen't get a Special Attack boost and a turn to set-up. Even if it does get a turn to set-up and a Special Attack boost; Rotom-W can still Thunder Wave it, as long as I keep it healthy enough.
    [​IMG]Volcarona - Ugh, this thing's a pain when paired with weather, as long as I keep sand up Stoutland can revenge kill it though. Rotom-W can Thunder Wave any non Sub / Chesto Resto variants, and end Volcarona's sweep.
    [​IMG]Celebi - This thing breaks through my Rotom-W / Hippowdon defensive core, and it's diffcult to switch into at times, making it irritating to deal with. Latias is generally my best option, variants that don't carry Earth Power are checked by Magnezone, Stoutland does mass damage with Return, slow variants are destroyed by Mamoswine's Icicle Spear. On paper it dosen't look that bad, but they sometimes carry moves like Thunder Wave and it's usually just a pain in the ass in general.
    [​IMG]Lucario - This thing can do ~80% to Hippowdon at +2 making it a very big threat indeed, both Latias, Hippowdon and sometimes Mamoswine are all good checks at full health, I've just got to keep my checks healthy and play around it.
    Props
    • Team Oceania - For helping me test this team and giving me helpful advice.
    • animenagai - For convincing me to change Magnezone's nature from Timid to Modest back when I'd never used Magnezone before. The nature change ended up being clutch in my WCOP battle against Cicada.
    • You guys - For taking the time to read this RMT and trying to help me improve it.
    Conclusion
    In conclusion, this team helped me discover Stoutland and Specially Defensive Rotom-W, both of which can be absolute monsters at times. Being able to utilize both of those amazing Pokemon as well as this team’s overall ability to catch people off guard has made using this team a really fun, enjoyable experience. Thankyou for taking the time to read this RMT and if you decide to import this team I hope you enjoy using it as much as I have!
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    Importable
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    Hippowdon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Whirlwind
    - Slack Off
    Dog (Stoutland) (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Return
    - Superpower
    - Wild Charge
    - Pursuit
    Magnezone @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 144 HP / 252 SAtk / 112 Spd
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Volt Switch
    - Sleep Talk
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon
    Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 32 SAtk / 228 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split
    - Thunder Wave
    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 72 HP / 184 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Recover
    Mamoswine (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    IVs: 29 HP
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Spear
    - Earthquake
    - Superpower
  2. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Dumb question, seems like Choice Band Terrakion really puts a number on this team, seems like your only option is Stoutland's Superpower and a fully healthy Hippowdon. How exactly do you deal with Terrakion?
  3. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    998
    Thanks for the kind words Zeta :]

    Well, Choice Band Terrakion can be irritating but I have Hippowdon, who can switch in on Close Combat (which is definitely not a guarenteed 2HKO without Stealth Rock and Spikes damage) and the opponent will rarely risk their Terrakion on a damage roll to beat and without Stoutland's Superpower, and Latias. It's a threat, but it's not that much of a threat and can definetly be played around. Thanks for taking your time to read through this RMT and offering feedback :)
  4. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    1,338
    Hey The Great Mighty Doom very awesome team you have here! I am excited that you have posted another rmt and congrats on the peak! I also really like the use of Stoutland and the core it makes with Magnezone. As you are probally aware of from my rmt "The Goldenteam" Magnezone/Mamoswine/Latias also make a nice little offensive core so i really like the use of that!

    Looking at your team their really aren't to much flaws aside from the ones you mentioned. However as you mentioned Volcarona can be quite menacing in sun. With a moveset of Quiver Dance/Bug Buzz/Fire Blast/Giga Drain he can hit all but Stoutland super effectively who wouldnt want to take a sun boosted Fire Blast. With Giga Drain Rotom-W, Hippowdon and Mamoswine are hit super effectively Bug Buzz hits Latias super effectvely and Fire Blast hits Magnezone super effectively

    To help your team handle Volcarona somewhat easier i suggest Stone Edge>Superpower on Mamoswine. With Stone Edge Mamoswine can ohko Volcarona all though he does hav a hard time switching in. Honestly the loss of Superpower isn't really to bad as you do have it on Stoutland and your team has no problem in handeling Ferrothorn with Magnezone. My only other suggestion is regarding your Stoutlands ev spread. 252 Speed evs doesn't let you hit any notable benchmark aside from speed tying with +2 Dragonite who is handeld easily by Mamoswine. An ev spread of 28 Hp / 252 Atk / 4 Sp Def / 224 Spe>252 Atk / 4 Sp Def / 252 Spe With this change Stoutland lets you outspeed Sandslash and Choice Scarf Thunderous-T/Landorus. The 28 Hp evs may not be much but they may help Stoutland survive a priority move that could of Ko'd it.

    Good luck with the team i hope i helped! Oh and Luvdisc'd and i am definatly trying out this team :)

    Tl;dr
    Show Hide


    Mamoswine
    .Stone Edge--->Superpower

    Stoutland
    .28 Hp / 252 Atk / 4 Sp Def / 252 Spe--->252 Atk / 4 Sp Def / 252 Spe



    ~Superpowerdude
  5. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    442
    Hi,Doom.This team is pretty cool.I don't see much flaws but there are somethings I'd like to add.

    Firstly,I strongly recommend changing Latias's EV spread to a simple 252 SpAtk/252 Spd.Since terrakion and CM Keldeo causes a lot of problems to your team when Hippo and Latias has taken some prior damage,especially when your Stoutland is the only way of revenge killing them.You would really want to outspeed them with Latias.Especially since with LO and Sand,it'll be hard to keep latias at high health through out the match.If Latias dies to them,your team will struggle against them.

    If you don't mind switching out Mamoswine,you can try SD chomp as a for getting past the walls mamoswine was supposed to cover.Garchomp is a much better choice overall imo since it can not only perform Mamoswine's main role but also add a lot of other benefits.Plus you will have one poke less which is weak to fighting.Fighting types can cause some problems to this team like I previously mentioned about Terrakion and Keldeo as you have 3 pokes weak to it and 1 poke resisting it.

    So to sum it up:
    - Changing EV spread on Latias to 252 Sp Atk / 252 Spd
    - Changing Mamoswine to SD Garchomp

    Hope I helped and Luvdisced :)
  6. Noob Asian

    Noob Asian

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    20
    Hey dude, loving this team. This dog definitely has bite to it! I also completely agree with using your sand inducer as Ttar will just make your team very suspectible to fighting types. However I can see that Heatran could be a potential threat, however I think Stoutland should be able to take care of it... I'm also curious to know why you have 0 IVs on some of your pokemon. From my understanding (which can be wrong) it makes you more suspectable to Foul Play, especially with your Latias which is 2x weak to.
  7. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

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    Hey Superpowerdude, tbh Stone Edge really won't help much, Volcarona outspeeds and OHKOs Mamoswine I'll never be switching Mamoswine in on Volcarona and vice versa. If the situation were to arise; Earthquake is a guarenteed 2HKO on all variants of Volcarona in sand and at +1 it's not a threat at all considering it's revenge killed by Stoutland with ease. Superpower allows Mamoswine to hit Ferrothorn, Cloyster, Chans/Blissey, Abomasnow, Balloon Heatran, Stoutland, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Kyurem, Bronzong, Mamoswine etc harder than he does with Earthquake, as opposed to Stone Edge which hits: Rotom-W, Volcarona, Gyrados, Abomasnow, Kyurem etc. As you can see Stone Edge has far worse coverage than Superpower, is inaccurate (which is a huge downside for me and is far worse than decreasing attack and defense by 1.5), and only really offers extra coverage on Gyrados (a situation where I would risk the miss rate of Stone Edge when I have Rotom-W, Magnezone, and Stoutland to take down Gyrados with ease is a very rare one indeed) & Volcarona (I've explained why this dosen't really matter above.)

    I've thought of that EV spread before and decided against using it. This is mainly because Stoutland is actually a relatively big threat to my team and speed tying with it could be crucial, if I lose Hippowdon then it can cause some problems with correct predcition. Dragonite is also a threat and being able to speedtie with it at +2 can be rather helpful in tight, late-game situations (+2 Extremespeed does 69.13% - 81.67% to Stoutland.) I will give it another test though and I'll see how it goes. Thanks for the rate and Luvdisc man :)

    Hey White symphoni, I've considered max Speed and Special Attack before, and I miss out on surviving a fair bit and its ability to switch in and take hits all day is diminished, however, after a few recent calcs; the bulk didn't matter as much as I previously thought it did, so I will definitely be giving it a retest.

    Garchomp is good at wallbreaking, however; I lose my secondary revenge killer, I lose my ability to revenge therians and dragons when the sand isn't up, I lose the amazing combination Mamoswine and Magnezone make, I lose priority, I gain a 3rd weakness to Ice, I lose my Sub Toxic Gliscor check, I lose my Subpunch Breloom check (etc, etc) I lose the ability to kill Heatran through it's Balloon, I lose a Venusaur check, which I will need even more if I do decide to change Latias to 252 / 252. Overall; I lose more than I gain and I really don't see enough reasoning to change to Garchomp. Anyway, thanks for the rate & luvdisc symph :)

    Hello Noob Asian, I run as little attack IVs as possible on all my Special Attacking pokemon so that they take less damage from confusion and Foul Play. You were indeed mistaken with the Foul Play mechanics, how it actually works is the following: the higher your target's attack stat the more damage it does, it completly ignores the user's attack stat and uses the only target's attack stat. So, as you can see; I'm actually decreasing the damage by minimizing attack IVs. Anyway, thanks for reading through this rmt, giving me a luvdisc and taking the time to comment :)
  8. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    474
    Hey Doom, nice team! I've been pretty disappointed by the low Stoutland usage through BW2 so its pretty nice to see someone using it!

    Firstly, I agree with the Latias EV spread change. I don't think you necessarily need to go fully 252 / 252 since you lose out on a ton of bulk by investing that much in SAtk, but you really need to bump up that speed considerably for you to have even have a chance against Specs Keldeo and Band Terrakion. I'd recommend a bulkier spread than 252 / 252, maybe something like 80 HP / 176 SAtk / 252 Spd at the absolute mimimum HP-wise since Latias is your primary answer to Sun and you really need some bulk on it.

    This team hates hazards too, and you really don't stand much of a chance against stall teams with Shed Shell Skarmory, rare as they are in BW2. To help you match-up a bit better vs Deo-D offense and stall as a whole, I'm trying to find room for a Rapid Spinner but this is pretty difficult and everything I try ends up requiring changing multiple Pokemon. The most solid method of slipping a Spinner in somewhere seems to be running bulky Starmie over Latias and then replacing Mamoswine with something like ScarfMence or Scarf Latios so you don't become too weak to Sun and don't have to rely on Stoutland for most of your revenge-kills. However, this doesn't really do anything to patch-up the Shed Shell Skarmory stall weakness. Most people who post RMTs are pretty reluctant to make major changes to their teams when they've had a decent amount of success with them (myself included) so I'm not expecting you to make this change at all. However I definitely think a spinner would make your life a lot easier considering how Spikes-vulnerable your Stoutland support core is (zone + hippo + stout), and how easily Deoxys-D sets up on you in the early turns of the game.

    tl;dr
    80 HP / 176 SAtk / 252 Spd Latias (if anything run more bulk than this - you rely on Latias to not get wrecked by sun so bulk is important!)
    Try fitting a spinner in somewhere e.g. Starmie + Scarf Latios over Latias and Mamoswine

    Good luck!
  9. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
    is a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    574
    Hi

    Cool team doom! OK theres not much here to chance, I only have a very small change to make and that is to help defeat your Volcarona problems. As you've surely noticed, Volcarona forces you into a very annoying position, as if the suns up your forced to bring hippowdon in so stoutland can revenge, supplying it a free boost and leaving you having to sac a mon to bring stoutland in safely, and if the volcarona user is smart and thinks he can keep rocks off for a later sweep and withdraws, you could be in for trouble later. To defeat this problem, I suggest running a Hippowdon spread of 252HP/ 224Def/28SpD. This gurantees you survive against a +1 Volcarona Fire Blast in sand, and to get rid of volcarona all together I suggest Stone Edge > Whirlwind, as this gives you a really good chance to beat sun teams once volca is gone, as it is the only sun mon right now that your team has problems handling, and with it gone the rest of your team can adequately handle pretty much all common sun threats even in sun! Although the loss of PHazing can be annoying, Baton Pass teams are incredibly rare right now, and the ability to hit Volca and other levitators is really good for your team

    GL with the team man! PS luvidsc :]
    EDIT:timid volca, not modest sorry for not specifying and I think my calc was bad yah
  10. Steel.Storm

    Steel.Storm

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2009
    Messages:
    200
    As PenguinX has said, you definitely wanna keep some Bulk on Latias. I had the same trouble with making my Team since the LO Tank Latias listed on Smogon isn't prepared for the BW2 Metagame. Personally, I've decided to leave her Bulk as is and simply subtract from her SpAtk.

    The Spread I opted for was 152 HP / 112 SAtk / 244 Spd though I'm using HP [Fire] > Surf, so instead I suggest you try out 152 HP / 116 SAtk / 240 Spd with a Timid Nature. This puts you 1 point faster than any non-Scarf Keldeo, Terra, etc allowing for you to outspeed and OHKO with ease while still retaining the same exact Bulk you've had. I haven't noticed a drop in power at all personally and have nabbed every important KO I've gone for. Hope this helps!
  11. peng

    peng

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
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    At this point I think you might as well run max speed to beat Hidden Power [Fire] Latios / Latias and speed tie with Gengar. The extra 12 EVs there will often win you games whereas the loss of 12 EVs between HP and SAtk is barely noticeable and will only come in handy in a fraction of battles. I think this is particularly important given that outside of revenge-killing with Stoutland or Mamoswine (if weakened), Doom's team has few options to deal with Lati@s and Gengar at the moment. I'm liking the look of 144 HP / 112 SAtk / 252 Spd which still gives you the bulk to take on Venusaur and Keldeo well enough and still packs a decent amount of power with Life Orb.
  12. Lord Moet II

    Lord Moet II
    is a Past WCoP Winner

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    Hey Doom nice team as always. No real issues with the team. You might want to try a Fire Fang or Ice Fang over wild charge because the only things it hits harder are Skarmory and Jellicent and you would need to predict correctly to hit those. Since you're predicting those switch-ins you're better off switching to zone which can ko both of the above mons. Fire Fang can OHKO all of the Genesect's and Scizor's running around while Ice Fang and OHKO most Dragons after rocks and the every annoying RP Landoruus. Anyways gl and hf with the team =]
  13. Steel.Storm

    Steel.Storm

    Joined:
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    200
    Very true, I didn't think about that! Guess I got a bit too hung up on 152 HP giving her an LO number lol. That Spread looks great.
  14. yee

    yee
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    This is one of the better teams of BW2- can matchup well against almost anything so good job with that.

    Changing Latias to max speed Timid is absolutely vital for Terrakion / Keldeo / Thund-T / Lando etc., I always thought you were running that already.

    For Hippo I prefer 252 HP / 4 def / 252 SpD Impish because it's then excellent on both sides and you won't have to switch out of Hydreigon (Specs Draco doesn't OHKO), counter Sub Hydreigon, switch into Volc if you need to etc. You could try this new trend of making it full SpD Careful and wasting it's IVs so Genesect doesn't get a special attack boost but I'd rather not suck it's dick like that to deal with it.

    If you're worried about Luke you could use an attacking Lando-T over Mamo- something like EQ / Stone Edge / HP Ice / U-Turn could go right on. You'll have to deal with Hippo getting Toxic'ed by Sub Glisc but that's all it can do and you won't be seeing a ton of them anyway.

    Have fun.
  15. papai noel

    papai noel
    is a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    464
    This team is awesome. I used it in two battles of the Unscrupulous Tiering Director Tournament and it checks almost every threat in the metagame with ease. The only thing i noticed is that you don't have a safe switch-in to strong special Dragons, like Specs Latios, but they sure can be played around with Zone, Stoutland and Rotom-W. Since this team is so nice, the only thing i'd say is to run 252 Speed EVs on Latias so that she can outspeed Keldeo, Terrakion and Thundurus-T and OHKO them with the correct move. I also feel like you should try Expert Belt > Life Orb on Latias. I know that losing power is bad, but the stuff you're going to check with Latias are mainly strong Fighting-types that are hit as hard as well with Expert Belt, so you should give it a try.

    Congratulations with the team, it's sure one of the best - if not the best - i've seen in B2W2. Luvdisc.
  16. blunder

    blunder

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    579
    Oh look, a bad team by a bad user :c Just kidding Doom. This here is a really nice team that seems to cover a lot of the threats in the BW2 Metagame. The only concerns I have are, one- Latias's EV Spread. I know 152 HP Evs provide you with a nice number of HP to take on Sun teams, but in this fast paced metagame, Latias wants Max speed to take on Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo etc. The loss of bulk while annoying at times, is still not to bad as Latias has that amazing SpD, and the added Speed lets you make sure your wallbreaking is not cut short. Another thing I want to add is the weakness to RP Genesect which you have already noted. One suggestion I have, is to try Terrakion over Mamoswine. Yes, I understand that you once replaced SD Terrakion for Mamoswine to deal with Dugtrio, but Choice Scarf Terrakion easily can take on many of the threats to your team such as opposing Terrakion, Volcarona, Genesect, Lucario Without Bullet Punch. While you would not have the same fire power as Mamoswine, the ability to revenge many key threats such as Dragons would be well worth it.

    Well that's all I have for now Doom. I will test out the team a bit. Amazing team as always and CB DOG DA BES :]
  17. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

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    Hey Penguinx, I must admit, yesterday, before I posted this rmt; I could have sworn the bulk mattered much more than it actually does. I remeber justifying not making the switch to max speed in my head, because only specs Keldeo can 2HKO me, and that was with HP ghost, which does nothing to Stoutland and does margninal damage to Rotom-W, whereas without the bulk it could be 2HKOd by other variants and the bulk meant that things like LO Alakazam, Venusaur, Scarf Keldeo, TR Reuniclus, etc would be too much for Latias to handle (I wouldn't switch it in on Alakazam anyway, but beating it 1 on 1 can help.) After recent calcs; I was a definitely suprised with how little the bulk mattered in most cases. I will probably be switching to max speed Latias, but I will do some testing in order to make sure and to decide exactly what spread I should run if I do want to make the change.

    As you may know; stall teams are going down in usage and if I were to go up against one I'm not sure how much those changes would actually help against stall. First of all; LO Tank Latias is an amazing weapon against stall, once their Blissey / Chansey is weakened into Psyshock 2HKO they'll often switch in on Latias thinking they're in no danger and if I predict them correctly then there's not too much that is commonly found on stall teams that can wall Tank Latias. If my opponent dosen't try switching Blissey / Chansey in because they're cautious then with my double Volt Switch combo, sand, Stoutland, and Mamoswine, I can at least get the pink blobs down to Psyshock KO range. The hazards are irritating to deal with but the change you're suggesting causes me to lose a great weapon against stall as well as my wall breaker.

    Against Hyper Offense; Deoxys-D can usually only get Stealth Rocks and 1 layer of Spikes down, I lead with Hippowdon and get up sand, predict the Taunt and go to Magnezone, Volt Switch out to Stoutland then Return. That's admittedly not the most elegant solution, but it works. I'll admit that Hyper Offense is one of the more difficult team styles to face, but if I play well I can usually beat any HO team thrown at me. Overall, I don't think the Starmie + Salamence change will be too beneficial, but I'll give it a test and see how it goes, thanks for the rate :)

    Hey Asek, I think you calced wrong, +1 Modest Volcarona's Fire Blast with the spread you suggested does 99.52% - 117.38%, which is far from guarenteed survival. A timid volcarona does 90.95% - 107.14%, so I'm not quite sure what you meant to say, lol.

    I really hate relying on Stone Edge to hit everything that I would usually Whirlwind, and it's really not that strong against anything outside of Volcarona, Whirlwind deals with it well enough and if I lose Whirlwind I'm in huge trouble against Baton Pass and I'm weaker to things like Sub CM Latias etc. I will definetly give this a test though and see what happens, thanks for the rate :)

    I'd definetly rather run max speed, I outpace Hidden Power [Fire] variants of Latios, Latias, and even Gengar (very rare, but I've seen a few before.) I also outspeed Hidden Power [Fighting] Espeon and speed tie with all of the above when they're not running one of those Hidden Power's.

    Yeah, pretty much my thoughts exactly, lol. For Gengar I can go to Rotom-W, Volt Switch then Pursuit with Stoutland, similiar deal with Latios, I can Pain Split after it Draco Meteors, then either go to Magnezone or Volt Switch to Stoutland (based on how healthy I need Rotom-W.) Just pointing out my strategy for Gengar & Latios, thanks for the rate :)

    Hey Moet, for the most part, Return + Stealth Rock is enough to OHKO almost every single pokemon I would use Ice Fang against,, the two biggest exceptions to this rule are Garchomp and Gliscor, who are both covered by Mamoswine. As for Fire Fang; it can be useful, but it's a weak move I wouldn't want to be locked into and not only does Wild Charge help greatly against Shed Shell Skarmory and Jellicent, it also has neutral, spammable coverage. Return also can't get the guarenteed OHKO on the likes of Keldeo and Tornadus-T without Stealth Rocks, and Wild Charge can. Overall, Wild Charge is much more useful in alot of situations. Thanks for the rate :)

    Hey yee, I really like Specially Defensive Hippowdon, but with that change I'm much weaker to Lucario, Terrakion, dragons, etc, I'm much more well prepared for Special Attackers than I am Physical Attackers and I need Hippowdon for that, not to mention Hyper Offense would pretty much become way too difficult to deal with.

    Lando-T will help mitigate that problem, but dragons will really overwhelm me, and overall imo the team's synergy is better with what I have at the moment, I will give it a test though. Thanks for the rate :)

    Hey papai noel, it's good to see you had some tourney success with this team. I'm currently testing max speed Latias. And Expert Belt really costs me alot of power, I will mostly be spamming Psyshock and Draco Meteor, neither of which have great Super-Effective coverage. I can recover off all Life Orb recoil and I don't really need the bluffing ability of Expert Belt. Thanks for the rate :)

    Hey ThunderBlunder, I lose wall breaking abilities with Terrakion as well as Breloom check, and Garchomp check, I'm much weaker to Dugtrio, I hate relying on Stone Edge, etc, etc. Sorry, but I won't be trying this, thanks for the rate :)
  18. Genesect

    Genesect
    is a Battle Server Moderator

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    This is another amazing team, created by you, once again. I do not understand how incredibly genius you are to make these teams. But one thing, i have to agree with the others on why you don't put max speed ev's on Latias, wouldn't you be better off if you did so you could outspeed such things as choice band terrakion whenever in a pinch?
  19. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

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    998
    Hey MrWaffles, I have bulk on Latias to live as many hits as possible, but recent calcs, suggestions and testing has shown me that max speed is superior and I will be updating OP once I figure out exactly what spread I want to use. Thanks for reading this rmt and taking the time to comment :)
  20. Finchinator

    Finchinator

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    612
    DOOM! Great team ya got there! I only could find a few things that can threaten your team.
    Firstly, you're weak to the rare but effective, double dance terrakion (with hazard support [deo-d, tyranitar]) Assuming they are running SD/RP/Stone Edge/Close Combat with Adamant life orb they can rock polish to outspeed latias and stoutland or, they can swords dance to kill hippowdon and rotom (from full it can tank one CC.)
    I'd advise adding choice banded scizor over mamoswine to ohko Terrakion, other Mamoswines, Tornadus-t after rocks LO and sand damage has already been taken, and Gengar (which is always annoying.)
    Also, Giga drain volcarona.....I'd advise giving hippo some special defense (maybe stone edge too?) otherwise it will kill you in sun / once it gets more then one boost.
    Otherwise this team is brilliant, LUVDISC XD!
  21. the nub

    the nub

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    27
    Hi!, Great Team seriously, some "tips" here xd. You can put Magneton Choice Scarf over Magnezone because destroy Rain Teams and outspeed Tornadus-t: Set
    Magneton @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power [Ice].

    And in mamoswine you can try Stone Edge > Superpower
  22. garchompubers

    garchompubers

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Hi The Great Mighty Doom! This looks like one of the best sand teams in B2W2, and I love seeing stoutland on more and more teams. I have one suggestion however. I think magnezone with substitute will be better than specs magnezone because instead of just trapping steel types, you can now trap AND set up on steel types which is pretty sweet, as a lot of steels can't touch magnezone. If you change to substitue, you MAY want to consider changing to max 252 hp/252 spec atk/4 speed. Congratulations with the team, and I hope you find it sucsessful.
  23. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

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    Hey Finch, Double Dance Terrakion isn't a threat unless it gets both a Rock Polish AND a Swords Dance, which I would never let happen. Since I don't consider it to be a threat under usual circumstances; I will not be changing to Scizor to check something I already consider checked, lol. Investing too much in Hippowdon's Special Defense let's banded Terrakion 2HKO Hippowdon, and Hyper Offense is currently the playstyle this team fears most, and Hippowdon's ridiculous defense and walling potential is one of my best weapons against it. Thanks for the rate :)

    Hey the nub, I need Choice Specs so that I can OHKO Ferrothorn, allowing it to only get down 1 layer of Spikes / Stealth Rock. And I lose my steel killing potential when I lose Hidden Power [Fire]. I explained why I run Superpower over Stone Edge in my reply to Superpowerdude's rate. Thanks for the rate :)

    Hey garchompubers, I really need to prevent my opponent getting hazards on the field, as it greatly diminishes the effectiveness and flexibility of my team. And Specs Magnezone stops the likes of Ferrothorn from laying down too many hazards.

    Lmao, sorry, I completely forgot to mention that dude :( But I'll be sure to write a shoutout section or something soon :)
  24. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
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    167
    Hi Doom!

    This is an awesome team, as seen by its success, but there is something I do want to point out. You said you wanted as much bulk on Latias as possible, but I feel in this metagame, that's a bit inefficient. I know people are suggesting 252 Spe to speed tie with other base 110s (and outspeed Keldeo/Terrakion and demolish them), but you can still outspeed a massive speed tier while holding much of the bulk you desire. Simply take a bit of HP or Sp. Atk out and give it to some speed so you reach a total of 192 Spe EVs. Then, slap on a Timid nature. Bam. Now you outspeed Garchomp and below. I can't even count on my fingers how many things you outspeed with this. A few examples include: Landorus-I, Thundurus-T, Garchomp, Jirachi, Celebi, Deoxys-D, Genesect, Timid Hydreigon, Jolly Haxorus, etc. You do lose a bit of firepower because of the change from Modest as well as 16 Spe (or SAtk) EVs, but with all the Pokemon you outspeed, it's definitely worth it.
    Final Latias Set (open)

    [​IMG] (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 152 HP / 164 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf
    - Recover


    Next up: Stoutland. I know the extra power from Adamant is extremely appreciated, but a Jolly nature is just so much more useful to this team. It allows you to outspeed Scarf (or +1) Terrakion, Keldeo, Latios, and Garchomp, other Stoutland, and +2 Dragonite. Since nothing else outspeeds Terrakion, you rely on Hippowdown and Latias, which are going to switch into many other moves, so they're not always extremely reliable. A Jolly nature also allows Stoutland to run a bit of bulk since it retains a bit of excess Speed. 176 Speed EVs allow you to outspeed up to Scarf Latios (which is really the most relevant fastest Scarf). This gives you 80 HP EVs, making Stoutland even more difficult to take down. Oh and you also outspeed the Jolly Breloom speed tier outside of Sandstorm.
    Final Stoutland Set (open)

    [​IMG] (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Frustration
    - Pursuit
    - Wild Charge
    - Superpower


    Next, I'm going to suggest 8 Spe EVs on Rotom-W. They simply allow you to outspeed standard Bulk Up Toxicroak and Will-O-Wisp or Volt Switch before they Substitute.

    And of course, I'm going to use this last little paragraph to discuss options for playing against Volcarona. Volcarona is the black plague to this team, because when it gets to +1, the only thing stopping it is Stoutland, and at +2, it's game over. One thing you can try is Specially Defensive Hippowdown with Stone Edge. Although it does seem like a Volcarona-check-only set, it definitely has its advantages. Stone Edge and Earthquake together form the infamous EdgeQuake combo, allowing you to still hit Pokemon like Landorus and Dragonite at the cost of phasing. Since Hippodown has amazing physical bulk anyway, a special set will balance its defenses, making it a multi-purpose wall. You can also switch into Landorus without fearing a Sheer Force set since Earth Power fails to even 2HKO. Scarf Terrakion doesn't 2HKO it either, which is amazing considering it's uninvested in physical defense. Garchomp is now able to lock itself into a Banded Outrage without fear of Hippowdon, but with the change to Latias, you can outspeed and OHKO with Draco Meteor. The situation with Stoutland and Volcarona is a bit shaky too, now that I think about it. You absolutely HAVE to switch Stoutland into Volcarona if you want to revenge kill it, meaning it can easily just Bug Buzz or Fire Blast predicting the switch, causing you to lose your only answer. However, you can almost always switch specially defensive Hippowdown into Volcarona, meaning you don't have to risk your MVP. Here's a calc just to show Hippo's amazing special walling capabilities:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Hippowdon (+SpDef) : 55.24% - 65.24% (2 hits to KO)
    Final Hippowdon Set (open)

    [​IMG] (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Slack Off


    And with that, I conclude this lengthly rate! I hope I helped! :] Oh, and congrats on the success!
  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
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    Double Dance terrakion is situational, if it needs to outspeed it can rp, if it needs to ko it can sd.
    For example, against stall it'll likely sd, against HO it'll likely RP.
    Usually late game it only needs one to put the game in the bag.

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