CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 2 -(Main Type Discussion)

[reachzero]

The time has come to decide the primary typing for CAP 1. As a reminder, our concept is:

Concept: Momentum
General Description: This will be a Pokemon that can be utilized to gain or regain momentum for a player's team at any point in the match as its primary function.
Justification: Gen. 5 is a very powerful metagame. As such, most battles are won by the smarter strategist who can best maneuver around his/her opponent's onslaught to gain even a single turn's advantage, potentially clinching them the match. This process of gaining and regaining momentum is most often the defining element that makes a winner and a loser out of a single Pokemon battle. Any top player in this metagame should agree that momentum is the most crucial element in any given match; however, "momentum" itself is a rather vaguely defined term that is never really explored in concrete terms. Is it keeping opposing teams on the defensive? Forcing switches? Good prediction? Spamming U-turn? These have all been approaches to achieving momentum, but they are also player-side and largely synonymous with "strategy," as opposed to Pokemon-side and regarding a Pokemon's role on the team. Certainly there are threats like Ferrothorn/Gliscor (defensive) and Scizor/Latios/Voltlos, etc., etc. (offensive) that can achieve momentum as we know it, but there is no current niche for a "momentum Pokemon" because the concept has been purely delegated to players and not to Pokemon.
Questions to be Answered:
-How do we define momentum in terms of competitive Pokemon? What factors make current Pokemon able to achieve momentum and how can we incorporate that information into a successful CAP?
-How do different styles of play (Weather-based offense, stall, bulky offense, etc.) use momentum to achieve their goals and how can our CAP play to those strategies in an effort to take their momentum away?
-What type of traditional role (sweeper, tank, wall, support) would a Pokemon like this most resemble? Would it have to be able to fit more than one of these roles to fit in a variety of teams?
-How will the different playstyles be affected by the addition of a Pokemon that can regain offensive/defensive momentum at any given point? Will offensive teams play more conservatively? Will defensive teams play more recklessly? Will everything simply adapt to a new threat and move on normally?

Discuss the best primary typing for this concept. Please do not poll jump by recommending primary/secondary typing combinations.

 

[smallvizier]

A great way to develop momentum is to restrict your opponent's choices. If our pokemon makes our opponent more predictable, we can take advantage of that.

So if our pokemon has many weaknesses, that is good: it will lure attacks you can switch into. If it has many resistances, that is also good: they are less likely to be attacked. This knowledge will help you control the battle!

It follows that a type like Normal or Electric would be a poor choice, because they are quite 'bland' in terms of resistances. On the other hand, Steel would be an excellent choice from a defensive angle, because it has many resistances and also many weaknesses - so it makes your opponent more predictable.

The types with the most 'defensive volativity' are Steel, Grass, Rock, Fire, Flying, Ghost and Ground. Clearly there are other considerations as well - but these seven types would be a great place to start.

 

[snowcone]

Building on small vizier at the moment in this metagame considering the large amounts of spec'd draco meteors that are flying around steel could be a good option. Also since a large majority of dragon attacks are choiced it'd be a good way of forcing a switch.

 

[Sirfunchalot]

Steel is leagues and bounds ahead of all of the other types when considering a momentum pokemon that wants to be able to switch in on predicted resisted attacks, while simultaneously forcing your opponent to hit it with specific attacks such that you can switch in a counter to that predicted attack. Steel packs a resistance to 11/17 types, immune to 1/17, weak to only 3/17, and hit neutrally by 2/17. With a main typing of Steel the momentum pokemon could force switches more easily than if it had any other typing.

 

[Staraptor Call]

I also support Steel. First of all, Steel has a large number of resistances that would let CAP1 come in easily, letting it more easily gain momentum from a favorable type match-up. Also, Steel's common weaknesses would make the opponent have to play predictably to beat CAP1. As someone said in the Concept Assessment thread, having common weaknesses can actually help a Pokemon get momentum for its team by providing situations where other Pokemon can come in to resist those attacks the first Pokemon is weak to. Two of Steel's weaknesses, Fighting and Ground, have types that are immune to them, so a CAP1 user could exploit those weaknesses to make the opponent completely lose a turn.

 

[Ice-eyes]

My suggestion for the primary typing would be Grass. It gives useful resistances to Ground and Water (plus Electric and Grass), giving CAP1 the ability to switch in on many common pokemon, especially walls - allowing for good momentum-generating synergy. It's also limited as a STAB type (while still threatening a large portion of the metagame), provoking the similar and predictable responses we want to our momentummon.

Steel is very similar, giving useful resistances, limited STAB and provoking predictable responses. It also provides a Toxic immunity, great for coming in on walls, and the resilience against passive damage (resistance to SR, immunity to Sandstorm and Toxic Spikes) is very helpful for switching in throughout the match.

 

[Attract]

As mentioned, steel would be the most useful typing. This CAP will need to switch in safely, possibly multiple times, and last long enough in battle to fully execute it's purpose. Steel is immune to Toxic Spikes (poison in general) and is resistant to Stealth Rock and the majority of attacks, so it would make the initial switching in that much easier. Being weak to Fighting and Ground would be a HUGE bain though, especially if you are trying to regain momentum from a +1/+1 Conkeldurr or a +2 Excadrill. Just keeping that in mind.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Steel, as everyone above says, is a great typing for its weaknesses, resistances, sr resist, tspikes immunity, and yeah.

But what about Dragon? It provides helpful resistances to Fire, Water, Electric, and Grass, while it has common weaknesses in Dragon and Ice. Additionally, from an offensive standpoint, Dragon STAB would make the opponent far more predictable, due to only a single type resisting it.

 

[Alchemator]

While Steel makes sense, I believe that the easiest way to gain momentum is through immunities, and the easiest way to gain these immunities is through typing. A resistance is all well and good, but if played well Pokémon can eventually brute force their way through your resistance and your momentum is non-existant.

Thus, though the true effectiveness will likely be defined by its secondary typing, I suggest either Ghost or Ground. With an influx of powerful Fighting-types it would be incredibly easy to use the Ghost-type's Fighting-type immunity to regain momentum. Ground works in a similar fashion, though Electric-type attacks are significantly less common.

E: Silly me, I forgot Flying which has a wholly excellent immunity to Ground-type attacks that Excadrill and Landlos like to throw around!

 

[Limewire]

I'll pretty much repeat what is being said here. Steel is a wonderfully defensive typing that allows a Pokemon to switch into a variety of attacks for little damage, and start to regain momentum from that point. Steel-mons are also immune to Poison damage, Toxic Spikes and sandstorm.

Another option would be Ghost. Given the absurd amount of Fighting-type Pokemon and attacks flying around OU, a Ghost Pokemon could switch into them with ease (and Normal moves too, as a bonus). However, a Ghost typing would miss out on a lot, unlike Steel, which is why I support Steel more.

 

[Fusxfaranto]

I think that the best primary typing for this CAP is flying. The ground immunity (and thus spikes immunity) is key, along with the great fighting resistance. The SR weakness hurts, but that could be nullified by a number of secondary types (like ground, fighting, or steel).

Another good primary typing is ghost. It doesn't have that ground immunity, but it has fighting and normal immunities, which is nice with the now more common Hi Jump Kick. It's also neutral to SR, which is important.

 

[Attract]

Unless I'm wrong, isn't flying NEVER a primary type?

 

[Tortferngatr]

Unless I'm wrong, isn't flying NEVER a primary type?

Tornadus.

 

[smallvizier]

There's agreement that lots of resistances (and lots of weaknesses) is great for making our opponent more predictable. If that was the only issue, we could pick Steel and stop there. But there are other factors too:


CaP1 needs to stop our opponent's momentum. So it will need to switch into pokes on a roll - who have, perhaps, already set up. What strategies might our CaP be called upon to counter?


Entry Hazards

These are still a huge part of the metagame, and it would be great if CaP1 could do something about them. Could our typing help CaP1 switch into common spikers, and force them out (or kill them) before they can finish the job?


Rapid Spin

This is a momentum poke, so we also want to keep momentum. Sometimes, that means stopping the opposing team's Rapid Spinner. Ghost type, anyone?


Weather

Getting permament weather up is one of the biggest sources of momentum around. Our pokemon should probably be able to shurg off a strong water attack - giving support to Grass, Dragon and Water.


Sweepers

Some moves pop up again and again on set-up sweepers. I'm thinking of Earthquake and Boltbeam, primarily, though there are others too. Grass, Bug and Ice do well there.


Fallibility

Remember, we don't want to make this pokemon overpowered - we should aim to give it just as much power as it needs to do its job. So I'm a little reluctant to make it Steel (which is amazing)... I'd be happier to choose a type which is known to be weak, but which happens to be really good at momentum.


Thoughts

Of course Steel is awesome. But Grass, Rock and Ghost also make the opponent more predictable - and some of those have other advantages too, especially Grass.

 

[Attract]

Tornadus.

I suppose :/. Also, there ARE certain pokes that are do well solely because of their flying type, but that doesn't mean that type is primary. I'm curious, is this thread to decide which type would be most useful to it, or which type would go first under the pokedex entry (primary type)? Because if we end with a Steel/Flying type or something, flavour-wise Flying/Steel wouldn't? make much of a difference? I still think my point extends more to "tradition" than anything.

 

[Thorhammer]

The idea of a type that combines good resistances and/or immunities with common and easily abused weaknesses seems like the way to go for this. On this basis, I think Grass would be the best choice for this CAP, followed by Ghost. Steel could be a good choice, as it would allow the CAP to do its job effectively, but the large number of resistances could lead to a rather low number of resistances depending on its secondary type, which would take away from its volatility. But that might not be the only way for volatility to work. Types like Bug/Steel have their own kind of volatility, restricting the opponent's available attacking types to Fire if they want to score a super effective hit, but greatly rewards them if they use it. But if we do something like that, we would need to make sure that that's how we want the opponent's options to be restricted. Restricting their options too much in one way could take away from the point of restricting their options in other ways.

Fire and Flying could have interesting applications as well, but that would also depend on the secondary type. A Stealth Rock weakness would likely restrict the switch-ins of the Pokemon too much for it to be able to gain momentum effectively.

 

[Stratos]

I would suggest something with the original Rotom's typing (Ghost/Electric) as a momentum Pokemon. Think- It would get logical access to Volt Change, which is very helpful for momentum. It could stop rapid Spin. It isn't hit hard by BoltBeam, and though we could give it a different ability, many Ghost-types logically do have Levitate, making Landlos and Dory hard pressed to hit it. It can take down Rain without sweat, and it wouldn't take entry hazards except rocks. Furthermore, the opponent is forced to go to a Ghost-or-Dark type move to defeat it practically, and that's usually only one or two pokemon per team.

/twocents

Note: I almost suggested Bug/Steel as the above poster did, but we already have Genesect and Scizor for that department, momentum pokemon in their own right.

 

[Onetwobanana]

My primary concern with everyone vouching for Steel is that it has two very common weaknesses - Ground and Fighting. Attacks of those types are being thrown around left and right. I think CAP1 should be resistant to, if not immune to, at least one of those types.

Being SR weak, while not so much of an issue this time around, is still detrimental to a defensively-minded mon. For that reason I'd say that Flying shouldn't really be on the table here. Sure, it's nice to have the Ground / Spikes / TSpikes immunities, but that Rock weakness really scares me.

At this point I think either Grass or Ghost fit CAP1's needs perfectly. As Axaj stated about the Ghost typing, it's immunity to Fighting, along with Rock neutrality, provide a great defensive starting point.

Grass has several good resistances, notably Ground, while being Neutral to Fighting and Rock. Grass also has several weaknesses. This might seem like you'll have to guess which weakness your opponent will exploit, but with Team Preview, you'll have a very good idea of what your opponent will do, and thus how you should respond - ultimately giving you the momentum by forcing your opponent to play on your turns.

tl;dr Ghost and Grass are both great options.

Edit: Largely ninja'd by Thorhammer.

 

[elementalheroshadow]

i pretty much agree with everyone who's said steel, i really can't put it any better than what's been said. dragon and grass also have useful resistances in this case, but you'd have to give up on immunity to toxic/toxic spikes. all three of these types can force your opponent to play predictably and be countered. ghost may also be interesting, as pointed out earlier: fighting-type attacks are everywhere.

 

[Ice-eyes]

From what we have been talking in IRC, most of the good potential typing combinations are either Grass or Flying. Grass leads onto combinations like Grass / Steel and Grass / Ghost, while similarly there are options such as Flying / Steel and Flying / Fighting available for the latter.

 

[Galladiator]

The key here is to retain defensive capabilities while at the same time allowing easy turnaround (that is, the ability to actually alter the flow of battle). Therefore, Fire and Ice would be poor choices, since they not only have common weaknesses but also tend to be killed easily. Rock and Steel have a similar problem, as does Dark. Fighting is an interesting option, but doesn't allow much defensive versatility.

Then we come to Grass. The only major weakness the type has is Fire, which isn't as common anyway; Grass-types tend to have decent Speed and good defenses; and it is a relatively underused type, making it harder to predict. My vote therefore goes to Grass.

 

[Deck Knight]

Steel's primary problem comes in the form of STAB options. Unless you're Metagross and have an absurd offensive stat or Ferrothorn and your dirt-slowness allows you a powerful Gyro Ball, Steel is a bad STAB for you.

The fact it is weak to the ubiquitous Fighting type as well as the powerful Ground sweepers is another argument against it. The problem with Steel is that any subtyping you put with it invariably has to address Either its Fire, Fighting, or Ground weaknesses, and preferably two of them, thus why Steel/Bug is an oversaturated market and Skarmory is so effective at what it does. Unless you're an offensive Steel like Excadrill, in which case the object is to slaughter before your weaknesses are exploited. That model of momentum isn't very well learned from, as we already have a fair few face-smashers.

I submit Ghost as the best primary type for a Momentum Pokemon. Its two immunities allow it a great chance to rob momentum from an opponent, and in particular it improves Stall's Momentum by providing another Pokemon that can block Rapid Spin. Ghosts are also predictable in the sense most opponents are aware of their various status and crippling options.

Flying also has merits, specifically as it is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and when used with Roost negates the common weaknesses the type brings with it. Granted moves come later, but Flying is the singular type that can boast such a benefit. Stealth Rock is not as game-defining as it used to be, although it is still powerful.

 

[Attract]

While Ghost has merits, many Fighting Pokemon prepare to have Ghost's stop their sweep attempts, for instance Conkeldurr holding Payback. With that in mind while it does force the opponent to use its less preferred attack, overall it will not necessarily force a switch as it is intended, while at the same time losing immunities to spikes, t-spikes, stealth rock resistances.
Flying has the same problem with almost all Ground users holding either Rock Slide or Stone Edge. If we are trying to force switches we must make a poke that can take neutral hits well enough where they are forced to switch to super effective hitting pokes. I'm in favour of Grass for that reason, as its weaknesses aren't seen on many of today's top sweepers (barring X-Scissor Excadrill). It has a lot more to work upon than Ghost or Flying.

 

[Flarephoenix332]

Here are my two choices:

Grass - Resists Ground and Water, letting it resist the every popular EQ and the surf/waterfall here or there. Some of it's 5 weaknesses (Fire, Flying, Bug, Poison, Ice) could be negated with a secondary typing, giving it more versatility.

Ghost - Immune to Fighting, which is common here in Gen 5, thus giving CAP1 opportunities to switch in. Dark and Ghost are the only weaknesses of Ghost, and like grass, some of those can be overcome by a possible secondary typing.

 

[Scoopapa]

I'm thinking that the worst thing that could happen to this pokemon would be if it could give an opponent "free" switches to something that posed an immediate threat. Such a situation is pretty much the opposite of momentum. Because of this, it seems like excellent neutral coverage would be a must for this pokemon. This is because if the battle starts to fall into cycles you can do enough damage that your opponent can't repeatedly use the same counter (ultimately establishing a favorable position).

Using that reasoning, I think both Water and Dragon are good options. Both types are excellent STABs for neutral coverage and provide nice resistances for switch-in opportunities as well.

I also like the option of Ghost. It forms part of an unresisted 2-move coverage combo and is a good defensive typing (and gives spinblocking of course).