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CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 3 -(Secondary Type Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 8, 2011.

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  1. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    Virzion, CB scizor, uh... heracross? Oh, and leafstorm serperior, wait that's not out yet.

    Yeah, that's all I can think of.
  2. Onetwobanana

    Onetwobanana

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    I really don't think I agree with this sentiment. Yes, they commonly pack Rock moves, but doesn't that make them more predictable? Say, for the sake of argument, we made CAP1 Flying/Poison. Your opponent switches in Terrakion. You know he's not about to X-Scissor or Close Combat you. This leaves two options - Stone Edge, or Rock Polish. Your prediction just got a whole lot easier.

    So, Rock is a common attacking type, and Stealth Rock still shows up occasionally. Great. Wonderful. So Excadrill, or Landorus, or Terrakion, or Conkeldurr, or anything that obviously carries Stone Edge or Rock Slide switches into CAP1. You know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what is about to be thrown your way. You are now free to switch in something that resists Rock - say, Hippowdon - who can eat the attack and then force the opponent to switch with Roar- which results in you maintaining momentum, which is the entire point of CAP1. We really shouldn't aim to minimize CAP1's weaknesses. That doesn't mean we should aim to maximize them, but keeping CAP1 weak to a few common attacking types is great for the concept, and should definitely be strongly considered.

    Edit for replying to reach -

    My primary reason for supporting Flying/Poison over Flying/Steel is that Flying/Steel turns CAP1's Fighting resistance into a Fighting neutrality. The Fighting resistance was one of the main selling points of Flying being the primary type in the first place (along with Ground immunity), from what I gathered, so turning around and removing that with the secondary typing seems rather silly.

    I will, however, cede the point that Flying/Poison really doesn't bring any notable resistances that Flying/Fighting or Flying/Steel don't also bring. It seems good on paper, certainly, but upon closer inspection it does come across as rather bland.
  3. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    So far, one thing I have not liked is lack of reasoning behind which Pokémon we should prefer to come in on our Pokémon. In other words, which Pokémon should we prefer to lure in. Although some of you will probably disagree with me, I don't think any choice is equally good in this sense.

    One thing, I guess, should be apparent: the Pokémon we lure in should not be adept at building momentum. This is why I don't like so much Fighting, and why I completely dislike Poison: they lure in Pokémon we should actually not strive to have switch in safely.

    Let's consider Poison/Flying first. I think it's pretty apparent that, unless we opt for specific choices in the stat/ability/movepool department (but this holds true for every type combo, so it's not a good argument), Poison/Flying seems a pretty good switch in for Gliscor, Landorus, Reuniclus, Doryuuzu - just to name a few. And all of them are REALLY good at turning momentum, in one way or the other. Plus, many teams carry at least 2 of them on their teams, so you aren't even sure about what they'll bring in (sure, there's U-turn, but again, every type-combo could have access to that move). That's why I don't think Poison makes us step in the right direction.

    Fighting next. It is certainly a good choice in many ways: good STAB, SR neutrality when combined with flying, nice offensive sinergy with Flying. However, Fighting suffers the same problem of Poison, in a certain way. Unless we go special or mixed, (or we give it an Ice move) for example, Gliscor is a good check. Reuniclus is another good bet. Depending on stat spread, Landorus may be able to switch in easily. These are not points which reinforce our Momentum concept in the least.

    Now, I'll explain why I support Water. Many of these Pokémon will have trouble switching into a Water/Flying CAP (think of Gliscor/Excadrill/Landorus switching into Gyarados, for example). Also, there's probably only two defined switch-in to this mon among the most used Pokémon: Ferrothorn and Rotom-A. While certainly threatening, both the pokes create much less momentum than the aforementioned Ground or Psychic shenanigans, and allow the CAP user to control the flow of the match more reliably.

    For these reasons, I support Water as a top choice for a secondary type for CAP.
  4. srk1214

    srk1214 The Wuthering Heights of Billionaire Gay Dinosaur Fiction
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    First of all, Gliscor does not resist rock. Second of all, this is invalid since Gliscor is basically always a safe switch into Terakion (although SD might pose a problem if Gliscor is at low health). Third, CAP 1 being dependent on Gliscor is silly.

    My reasoning against Flying/Fighting is simple. I don't like that it is weak to itself. That encourages running more offensive spreads, which is not what we are going for.
  5. Onetwobanana

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    My fault on the Gliscor thing. Edited accordingly.

    And I'm not sure why you think I was saying CAP1 needed to be dependent on Gliscor. CAP1 does need to be dependent on it's team, which was the point there. CAP1 cannot just sit out on the field and do everything by itself. From the beginning we knew that this CAP would be doing a fair bit of switching, so having a type that is synergistic with some common Pokemon is very desirable.
  6. Sambobz

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    it's not about knowing when to switch out, it's about being able to switch in. if our momentum mon can't switch in frequently how can we gain momentum with it?. you generally switch out to keep from losing momentum and you switch in to gain it. I think this was covered in the momentum discussion; forcing your opponent to react rather than act.

    Edit:
    this is a good point.
    however a lot of the arguments against fighting are dependent or can be fixed by the stat spread and/or movepool of CAP1.

    I need to stop talking so much...
  7. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Part Fighting.

    As the primary Ground-type users generally rely on either EdgeQuake (Excadrill/Landorus) or DragonQuake (Garchomp) coverage from my readings, the ability to only take neutral damage from each is fairly good. This thing shouldn't be weak to Exca's coverage moves.

    Acrobat+Fling Gliscor is problematic, but this is predictable enough IMO.

    Secondly, it gives it good coverage, and a typing niche.

    EDIT: A flaw with Water/Flying: Yes, Excadrill wouldn't want to switch in, but would Thundurus?
  8. Onetwobanana

    Onetwobanana

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    Is it that difficult to carry a spinner for SR? I haven't seen an argument yet that convinces me that CAP1 needs to be resistant to Rock. Salamence and Dragonite do just fine, and they're 2x weak to Rock. Why is the Rock weakness so crippling to our CAP?
  9. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    It's not crippling, but it makes things a little harder. If Excadrill was the primary reason we choice Flying, I'm cool with that, but being weak to Stealth Rock is a problem.

    Expressing support for Fighting, since it helps against SR, Excadrill, and is a very useful STAB in conjunction with Flying that makes it threatening to face from the get-go (momentum shift successful), and Steel for shifting momentum against Dragons.
  10. taziathegreat

    taziathegreat

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    we arent running offensive spreads ... ?

    why does momentum have to be defensive.

    You guys are thinking gliscor, when we could just as easliy be sizor
  11. Sirfunchalot

    Sirfunchalot

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    I have to support Fighting. Fighting grants CAP 1 great neutral coverage (which helps it hit the switches it forces in for consistent damage, seeing as it's dual stab is currently only resisted by Zapdos, Voltlos, and the incredibly uncommon Rotom-S). It also grants it neutrality to Stealth Rock, something great for a pokemon that wants to repeatedly come in and force switches (possibly U-Turning). Fighting also doesn't give you any nasty 4x weaknesses like Water/Dragon and Flying would. You get a nifty 4x Bug resist, a 2x resist to Dark, and should you use roost, you are granted a temporary Rock resist.
  12. srk1214

    srk1214 The Wuthering Heights of Billionaire Gay Dinosaur Fiction
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    Lurk more. The consensus was defensive momentum. Flying/Fighting does not encourage a defensive playstyle at all to me. In the CAP playtesting period when presumably everyone will be using CAP 1, an offensive CAP 1 would likely be successful since it would beat defensive variants of itself most likely. This is not the goal. Therefore I do not prefer Flying/Fighting (although I do prefer it to many other alternatives).
  13. Thorhammer

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    We won't want this to be anything that already exists.
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Photorealistic Seagull (PSG)
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    I'm rallying around Ghost.

    Flying/Ghost does indeed have a lot of weaknesses, however it possesses 3 immunities, and is the only type combination that will substantially alter momentum in favor of Stall Teams by acting as a spin blocker.

    Consider the following strong points of a Flying/Ghost combination:

    Three Immunities:

    It goes without saying that an immunity to Rapid Spin and Fighting Attacks generates a lot of momentum if you can lock an opponent into those attacks, which in all likelihood will be an option for a concept based on Momentum. Taking 0 damage when switching into two very common attack types and a third attack typing that is becoming increasingly more common is the best thing a Pokemon seeking to change match momentum can hope for.

    Has vulnerability most often to only one coverage attack on a given opponent.

    Rock, Ghost, and Dark attacks are fairly common coverage attacks, but most Pokemon only carry one of them. Excadrill has been running Return more and more and while Rock Slide is a threat, there are multiple ways to deal with a quick Rock Slide using a combination of Stats and Ability. There's also Shadow Claw which sees even less use. Conkeldurr may be the exception as it can possess Stone Edge and Payback, but Payback no longer doubles damage on the switch-in, so its less of a sure thing. Moreover, Conkeldurr is more likely to use Mach Punch to finish a threat or Drain Punch when it it low on health to keep tanking, and these are ideal opportunities that only Ghost/Flying can exploit to turn a game around. A resisted Conkeldurr Mach Punch or Drain Punch still hurts, and Flying by itself ensures Stone Edge hits for neutral damage at worst.

    Hits the vast majority of Steel-types for Neutral damage.

    We do not want CAP1 to be a sweeper necessarily, however having neutral coverage against common metagame threats is very important. Flying has neutral coverage against Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress, Excavalier, Durant, and Lucario. Ghost adds Metagross, Jirachi, and Bronzong to that list, and unlike Flying/Fighting, doesn't open up a weakness to Psychic.

    Threatens Reuniclus and Conkeldurr simultaneously.

    While both threats have coverage attacks they can utilize against Ghost/Flying, The typing hits both of them super-effectively with STAB attacks. With Psychic and Fighting both rising to prominence, being able to hit both while being weak to neither is a huge benefit. Psychic itself is experiencing somewhat of a Renaissance, and Ghost can strike Latias, Latios, Espeon, and Sigilyph effectively as well.

    Remains invulnerable to Fighting during Roost

    Yes, I know Movepool is not decided and will not be for some time, however this is possibly Ghost/Flying's greatest situational advantage. It works perfectly with the Imperviousness trait by ridding Flying of its 3 troublesome weaknesses while only opening it up to assault from one dangerous attack type (Ground) instead of two (Ground and Fighting). Dark and Ghost are common coverage moves, but present nowhere near the general threat level that Psychic (Flying/Fighting) and Fire (Flying/Steel) open up.

    As far as the CAP Process goes, having a lot of weaknesses but some great core strengths opens up a lot more leeway for stats and abilities. Ghost/Flying is a type that exemplifies high-risk, high-reward and forces opponents to do specific things to counter it. Moreover many threats cannot realistically be handled even with nuetrality. Fighting/Flying may be nuetral to Landorus Stone Edge, but as mentioned earlier Landorus's Earthquakes can break through resistances. Nuetralities are not enough, and with a main typing of Flying, Rock attacks will always be a problem. Finally, Ghost/Flying's unique advantages lend itself well to using movepool to maximize its typing quirks. It will lure in a lot of threats that believe thier coverage move can handle it, and they will be in for a nasty surprise when CAP1 is behind a Sub. Sub + Encore for example is very potent when you have 3 immunities to work with, and Pokemon with 5 types of attacks think themselves threatening enough to deal with you.

    Going back a bit to point two, since Ghost/Flying is usually only vulnerable to one coverage attack, you can tell almost instantly what an opponent's set is depending on how it tries to handle CAP 1. Combined with Disable (or Encore as mentioned above) it can force yet another switch and deal more residual damage to an opponent. tl;dr, Ghost/Flying's weaknesses lure in and help identify many threats from behind a Sub, and its strengths allow it the maximum number of chances to come in for itself.
  15. taziathegreat

    taziathegreat

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    i agree. i was only making examples about what momentum pokes are, on both the offensive and more balanced route

    but it wont... unless we choose ground.. and possiblely poison
  16. capefeather

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    I've been thinking about it more and watching this discussion and the discussion on #cap, and I'm going to narrow down my personal convictions to Steel and Water.

    I don't think that Fighting brings enough key resistances, and I suspect that it's there mostly for the STAB and for retaining the Fighting resistance. The problem with trying to retain the Fighting resistance at this point is that many Fighting-types have coverage moves to hit Flying-types. Scrafty carries Ice Punch, and Mienshao I think carries Ice Punch, too, if anyone still cares about that dude. Virizion commonly carries HP Ice. CAP 1 would even be weak to itself! I also don't like Poison because it seems inferior to Fighting for the purposes of this concept.

    Steel helps CAP 1 by neutralizing the Ice weakness as well as the Rock weakness, so that it doesn't immediately keel over to these threats without significant bulk. It also resists Dragon as a bonus. Blaziken would probably win against either typing, anyway. Additionally, the so-called "coverage issues" are kind of a dumb argument. CAP 1 could still *use* Fighting-type moves or Ground-type moves or whatever, and we could also give it a support movepool. Flying's a great STAB by itself, anyway. Steel also allows CAP 1 to resist Return and doubly resist X-Scissor (both from Excadrill).

    I still find Water a good alternative. Water can at least make Landorus and Excadrill wary of switching in, which ties into the "choke point" theme going around. The typing's weaknesses are also very appealing, as Electric attacks aren't all that common from Pokémon other than Rotom-W/Thundurus/Raikou (and the former two will probably counter this CAP regardless), but if there's a spike in Electric users due to CAP 1, that will play to the team's favour. Water also neutralizes the Ice weakness for better prospects against the Fighting-types mentioned earlier, though the Rock weakness still hurts here.
  17. petrie911

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    As much as I like Poison, at this point it seems like Fighting is a better choice. The removal of the rock weakness is important, though not because of SR. Rather, the problem is that a lot of the Pokemon we'd want to switch in on carry Rock-type attacks. Flying/Fighting CaP1 poses a lot more threat to dangerous sweepers like Excadrill and Terrakion than Poison/Flying, and Fighting/Flying doesn't have to worry as much about being caught off-guard by a predicted Stone Edge.

    Flying/Poison is not without merits, though. Immunity to Toxic is nice, and we have a much easier time switching in on Grass-types like Breloom, Virizion, and Venusaur. It also has the nice ability to retain its Fighting resistance even while Roosting. Taking only 1/4 damage from fighting and grass attacks is quite good in itself, especially when you need to switch in on a powerful STAB fighting attack and threaten with your SE STAB Flying. And, of course, it's not weak to Flying.

    Now, when I think about the idea of regaining momentum, I think of Crobat in DPP UU. Crobat was amazingly good at it--so good he wound up in BL. Come in on one of your great resistances, kill sweepers with STAB Brave Bird, Taunt walls, U-turn out to whatever you want, and Roost back your HP so you can do it all again. In addition to being a testament to the fact that Poison/Flying can work quite well, it's also a testament to the fact that SR weak, in and of itself, is not that big of a deal. Eliminating CaP1's rock weakness may be a good idea, but we shouldn't do it just because of rocks.
  18. Paradox

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    I agree with this completely. Both Flying/Steel and Flying/Fighting share the 4x Bug resistance, and Grass attacks aren't too common (Shaymin is good, but not seen much, and Ferrothorn's Power Whip won't be too dangerous with a x2 resist anyways). The bonus Fighting resistance is quite nice, but Flying/Poison lacks resistances to common fighting coverage moves –*Rock, Dark, and Ice. Rock hits neutral against /Steel and /Fighting, Ice hits neutral against /Steel, and Dark is resisted by both. And while Flying/Poison may be better for switching-in to attacks due to these 4x resistances, it's weakness to SR won't be helping there. Overall, the largest advantage of Flying/Steel and Flying/Fighting are the resistances to attack combinations that allow it to stay in and maintain momentum, which Flying/Poison sorely lacks.

    You made some very good points in this post (though I can't see Landorus countering Flying/Fighting). However, it seems to me that Gliscor is pretty arbitrary to bring up as something that could beat Flying/Fighting instead of Flying/Water. First you assume that it would be physical, then you ignore that just like Gliscor can take the neutral attacks from Flying/Fighting, many walls could take the neutral attacks from Water/Flying (and in the same sense, many offensive pokemon can switch in on resisted water attacks and set up like Reuniclus on /Fighting). So just as much as Gliscor is a counter to Flying/Fighting, Skarmory, Gyarados, Suicune, Dragons, etc can counter or take advantage of Flying/Water. And don't give me that Gliscor is a far better momentum gainer than they are, because that's not true. It almost seems as if you want to reduce CAP 1's viable switch-ins to 2 pokemon...

    Still, your arguments in favour of Water/Flying are certainly valid, and I agree that it is a legitimate typing. It is important to consider how switch-ins can be limited, though this doesn't necessarily have to be solved entirely in typing (stats, status, substitute, WW, Abilities, etc could go a long way in dealing with a lot of the problems you brought up).

    Sorry to be rude, but... "lurk more" (and don't criticize so readily). reachzero made one post in the CA that suggested a more defensive bias, but there hasn't been any overruling of a more offensive biased spread. In fact a lot of talk has been going on (especially on IRC, and especially instigated by reach) supporting offensive bias. And don't forget that stat bias has yet to be decided (the reason for that ordering is because we shouldn't assume stats before we select typing). Obviously it wouldn't be a sweeper, but there's nothing wrong with using solid offense to maintain momentum.
  19. Dark Pulse

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    I believe that either a defensive typing like steel or rock would mke it good for reversing momentum in-game, or an offensive typing like Ground, Ghost or Fighting.

    If we choose Rock or Steel, we will lose the ability to avoid full damage from a STAB fighting move. However, Excadrill, with good prediction, will just simply Rock Slide the shi- out of any flying-type, especially in the sandstorm enviroment with it's insane speed
  20. Tortferngatr

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    ...

    1. Flying/Rock may have 4 notable resists (Normal, Fire, Flying, Bug [Poison doesn't count since the only common Poison-typed moves in OU are Toxic and Toxic Spikes, making the resist useless]) but it also has 5 weaknesses (Water, Electric, Ice, Rock, and Steel,) all of which are used by OU mons (and three of them are staples of rain teams.) It also lacks the all-important Fighting resist, and it no longer resists Grass. It case you were wondering, Rock doesn't resist Rock.
    2. ...Ghost is a defensive type, as Deck Knight delineated earlier.
  21. Omicron

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    I honestly think Fighting is a very good choice for the secondary typing as all the other combos of typing have been done before (Ice-Fly, Fire-Fly, Electric-Fly, Poison-Fly, Grass-Fly, Water-Fly, Ground-Fly, Steel-Fly) Fighting type provides a neutrality to rock moves and stealth rock and also useful resistances to dark and a 4x resist to bug. Water-Flying has way too many weaknesses. Fight-Fly is a unique typing that has yet to be created. Although the purpose of CAP is not just to create new pokemon with new type combos, I feel like this combination would bring a lot to the table, or at least something new.
  22. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    First of all, thanks for the appreciation^^ I'll try to answer some of your points.

    About Landorus countering Fighting/Flying: I don't intend to say Landorus is a counter in any way (since even if it were to go pure Physical and with STAB moves only, a STAB Brave Bird or Drill Peck would pound even 89/90 defenses). But if our CAP is actually Fighting/Flying - and especially if this CAP uses Close Combat - it takes little for Landorus to switch on the resisted move and regain momentum easily. While certain mons can do the same to a Water/Flying too, I find them to be less threatening than the sand genie.

    About Gliscor: if CAP is pure physical, aside from Ice moves it's not gonna break Gliscor. If we assume for example he has 110 base Atk, and he has Brave Bird (keep in mind he could even be stuck with drill peck), he's not gonna do more than 40% roughly to 252HP/0 Def Gliscor - even less to more defensive versions. Keep also in mind that, between Poison Heal and Protect, you need to do over 60% most times to grant a 2HKO on Gliscor. Meanwhile, he can do several things to you, depending on the set. He could U-turn, he could Toxic (or Fling a Toxic Orb), or he could simply maim you with Acrobatics. Probably not a counter, but still a good check unless we make specific choices with stats and movepool. And my point is that we should try to have as few restraints as possible on future steps if we can.

    About the list of mons which could take on Water/Flying: Skarmory and Suicune are certainly less threatening than Landorus, Reuniclus or Gliscor most times - and Suicune is kinda uncommon too. About the others, if we still assume physical 110 atk and Brave Bird, many dragons and even Gyarados are gonna have an hard time switching in. Also, keep in mind that, among those, only Garchomp and Latios boasts more speed than Landorus, and will take significant damage on the switch in. The others are slow enough to have to take 2 attacks before being able to retaliate.

    And about the "I want to limit switch-ins to 2 mons", I'm sorry if that was the impression. My intention was limit switch-ins to a list of Pokémon which could possibly count Pokémon who for the most part don't show up commonly together on the same team, so that you can be sure about what your opponent will switch into CAP.

    Anyway, I still think fighting is a strong choice (although DK's post makes ghost intriguing too) - just, I think water has a little advantage, and gives us more leeway down the path.
  23. b07

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    I have to agree with Deck Knight on Ghost being an excellent secondary typing.

    With flying as the main type, at least two of rock, electric, and ice will be super effective unless we go with ground or steel. ground already has two different momentum gaining pokemon in the metagame with Gliscor and Landorus, and steel lends itself very heavily to being defensive, which is already exemplified in Skarmory.

    With this in mind, I also think that it would be more beneficial to try and capitalize on additional immunities a second type could bring to the table, while hopefully adding at least decent coverage, as well as non-damaging ways (trick, sub+pain split/encore, trick room, will-o-wisp, hypnosis, etc.) to gain momentum, which ghost does very well.

    Basically, it seems better to try and enhanced what potential for offensive/indirect means of momentum flying gives, by coupling it with ghost, than to fret over being SR weak.
  24. tomtom5858

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    I'm going with Fighting. You say you need reasons? If so, please review the previous two pages. Neutrality to SR, awesome type coverage, awesome resistances. Reuniclus? Who is this "Reuniclus" you speak of (I don't even know if that's the English :P)? Who cares if it can't check one of the metagame's threats? It checks Exca, TTar, and Conkuldure, to name a few.
  25. Attract

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    And it does what against Excadrill? To have to switch against Excadrill is huge.

    Edit: ..and Tyranitar, who also resists those attacks AND packs Pursuit. I'm not sure Ghost is the way to go if we are looking to subvert these threats. The best thing it has going for it right now is Will-O-Wisp, but Jellicent does this better imo.
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