1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 3 -(Secondary Type Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 8, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jebus McAzn

    Jebus McAzn

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    2,694
    I would like to throw my support over to a Ground secondary typing. Flying/Ground, first off, offers very interesting concepts, as it's never been done before. But that's immaterial. More importantly, Flying/Ground offers immunity to Electric and Ground attacks, two common enough types in the metagame that it is simple for CAP 1 to switch in on a target, take advantage of the immunity, and regain momentum. Flying/Ground also eliminates the Stealth Rock weakness - while as the OP said, an SR weakness isn't the end of the world, it is still a substantial factor. A downside, as mentioned before, is a 4x Ice weakness.

    However, remember to take into account the theme of momentum - the fact that a Flying/Ground CAP will have a strong counter in Ice attacks makes it much easier to predict what move and what switch-in the enemy will choose, allowing you to switch out accordingly. This fits well with the theme of "momentum".

    The second best choice would be Flying/Poison, simply because of amazing typing (the 4x fighting resist in particular). I would like to note, however, that Flying/Poison offers less offensively than Flying/Ground does - Poison STAB fails to be useful against most targets, to be quite honest - very few threats actually have need to be scared of Poison STAB, among these Virizion and Breloom, both of which are countered by Aerial Ace/Brave Bird/whatever Flying STAB we give CAP 1. Flying/Ground, on the other hand, gives us a potential EQ/Brave Bird combo or something similar; a type combo which hits 8/17 types in the game for super effective damage and isn't resisted by any one type.

    In addition, Flying is resisted only by Electric, Rock, and Steel, all three of which are hit super-effectively by Ground. Ground is resisted only by Bug and Grass, both of which are hit super-effectively by Flying. Flying/Poison, on the other hand, is walled by all three flying resists, Steels in particular. With Flying/Ground, the only thing to worry about is enemy Flying types, which makes the only viable resistances to Flying/Ground dual-typed Flying pokemon with a secondary typing of Electric, Rock, or Steel.

    Do note that this includes a good amount of Pokemon in the game, however, some of the most prominent being Zapdos, Aerodactyl, and Skarmory - probably more in the 5th gen too, but I'm not as familiar with them yet as I'd like to be. Note also that Balloon usage could be a potential problem.

    Summary: I suggest, as many others have as well, Ground or Poison as the secondary typing.

    Strong points of Flying/Ground: Resisted only by Flying/XXXXX, where the secondary typing is Electric, Rock, or Steel, or when an enemy Pokemon that has a Flying resist is using a Balloon, like Heatran.
  2. Raikaria

    Raikaria

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,315
    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/472.shtml
    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/645.shtml


    Last time I checked, Gliscor was pretty good at momentum changeing too. If we went for Flying/Ground, the odds are rather high we would just wind up re-making something rather similar to Gliscor.
  3. Jebus McAzn

    Jebus McAzn

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Messages:
    2,694
  4. Hazel

    Hazel

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    33
    I support Ghost and Poison.

    Poison will give CAP 1 more resistances, which means more switching in. If you manage to resist one of your opponent's entire Pokémon, she will be forced to counter you instead of you countering her - earning momentum, basically.
    However, Poison does not resist Rock, which gives CAP 1 a weakness to Stealth Rock, as well as to Pokémon carrying Stone Edge. Poison's Psychic weakness is also quite troubling, as Pokémon like Reuniclus can take advantage of it.

    Ghost is commonly known for its immunities to Normal and Fighting, which would allow CAP 1 to switch in on Pokémon like Conkeldurr and Virizon as well as common coverage moves like Focus Blast to, again, gain momentum. Blocking Rapid Spin is also a very nice addition to the positive sides of a Flying/Ghost CAP 1. As Fighting types often carry Choice items or have less-than-average coverage, a Flying/Ghost could potentially force many switches. Ghost is also a hindering type for the opponent, often carrying status moves like Will-O-Wisp and "stalling" moves like Pain Split which could be a tremendous asset in gaining momentum by hindering a sweep.

    Weighing these two against each other, my vote is leaning towards Ghost as it is the superior type, generally.

    ~Hazel
  5. Gerard

    Gerard

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    4,385
    I think we should aproach this Cap by points:

    Swich in: this Cap should not had a hard time swichin in to have a cance to actually swich momentum (so ting like SR neutrality ans Spikes inmunity are perfect for it)

    Being able to "scare" set-up sweepers: to regain the momentum you should at least stand a chance agains Dancers (DD and SD being the most popular Sweepers) to either phaze them or OHKO them (this could be done whit other things like Encore/Unaware/etc.. but that should be for other polls)

    Easy to predict: to make your opponent easy to follow and make their moves and counters easy to see from a mile away (a weekness to coverage moves should not be soo big) so you can do things like double switch to a counter's counter

    Helping the Team
    : this is kind of obvious but it has to be able to counter the opposing teams strategy so you can pull your own (it may change the weather in a normal way, use trick room, have an ability to help him swich or reduce their opponents treath, etc... again this should be looked latter but typing is very important when knowing what could become a treath)

    Not Becoming a Set-up Fodder
    : this is like the complete opposite of momentum

    Not being a Sweeper: this is not his main job, it may be able to do so with help, but not by himself nor with a free turn
  6. Goosegg

    Goosegg

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    After reviewing the different arguments for each secondary type, I've decided to throw my hat towards the Ghost typing. It gives an all important immunity to Fighting attacks, which will make it invulnerable to them while Roosting (assuming we even give CAP 1 Roost), can operate as a viable SpinBlocker, and potentially gains access to a variety of standard Ghost type support options such as Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split.

    I also agree that, while a secondary Fighting type will be interesting to work with, it seems that most people are becoming obsessed with its attacking stats than whether or not a Fighting typing will actually help it gain momentum. Yes, it can potentially keep threats like Tyranitar and Excadrill from switching in, but how would it do against things it can only hit neutrally, like Skarmory and Dragonite? What moves would the Fighting type give CAP1 that would help it gain momentum aside from powerful STAB options?
  7. taziathegreat

    taziathegreat

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    46
    Why can't a momentum poke sweep, it shouldn't be it's main, but sweeping should be an opition (sp)

    Crobat sizcor gliscor

    All are great at building momentum and are easliy capable of sweeping once its on your side
  8. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,885
    OK, since the discussion is almost over, I'll lay down what I think the choice between Steel, Fighting and Water goes down to.

    Basically, we're dealing with three categories of threats: Fighting-types, Excadrill/Landorus and Psychic-types (notably Reuniclus). No matter which of the three typings we pick, we'll optimally cover two but not the other. Water is weak against Rock, Fighting is weak against Psychic, and Steel is neutral to Fighting. It really comes down to which one we can afford to "drop". As a reminder, Zapdos and Rotom-W will probably beat CAP 1, anyway, and Thundurus will hesitate but still probably be a counter as well.

    My personal preference goes to Steel. The thing about Steel is that it takes up to 30% more damage from Fighting-types (as I showed earlier) than Fighting does. While 30% is significant, I think that it's very workable, unlike the 2.25x damage that Reuniclus will deal against Fighting (120 Focus Blast vs 270 Psychic) or the double damage that Water will suffer from Rock. Steel also grants the neutrality to Rock just like Fighting. Again, Flying is a good enough offensive STAB in my eyes (just look at Tornadus, man), and it even hits most of these "scary" Fighting-types super-effectively. This is just my preference, though, and I'll grant that there are good reasons to disagree. I just hope that my argument is compelling enough :P
  9. Goosegg

    Goosegg

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    I agree with you that sweeping could be an option on a momentum Pokemon, but most of your examples suck. Scizor's only means of momentum IS sweeping (unless you're running a Baton Pass set, which even then is too easily blocked and set up on) and Crobat can run a Nasty Plot set, but its STAB options are terrible and get little coverage. Gliscor is the only example worth noting from above.
  10. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,946
    Crobat is not capable of sweeping, but it's a decent benchmark for what we should expect this CAP to do. Brave Bird makes it at least threatening to the things that are weak to it, but nothing else, really. As long as we don't give this CAP some crazy stat-boosting moves like Butterfly Dance, Shell Smash, or Gear Change, we don't have to worry about it being used as more of a sweeper than a momentum-changing dude.

    I'm still not giving up on Ghost, but judging by the direction of this thread, it doesn't seem to be like a winning team. I'm more than willing to work with Fighting and Steel, but I don't think they're anywhere near as necessary as Ghost is for this concept.
  11. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,524
    I'm not impressed by the arguments for Poison or Ghost, so let's go with Steel, Fighting and Water.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)