CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 12a - Complete Movepool Discussion

[Korski]

I'm still pretty convinced that Draco Meteor is only competitively viable against Kingdra in terms of being the best option to use against an opponent. CM Latias is more or less free to set up as it can easily get to +2 before Krilo can get a move off if Krilo has to switch in, in which case even 252 SpA LO DM is doing only 39.1% - 46.4% to 4/0 Latias or 35.4% - 42% to 128/0 Latias. CM+Recover Latias handily beats DM Krilowatt in every scenario, even if the two switch in at the same time, unless Kril has other means of incapacitating it (T-Wave/Toxic).

Against Kingdra, it will take 216 EVs and a neutral nature to guarantee a KO on Kingdra with Draco Meteor (assuming Leftovers on Kril) after SR and one turn of LO recoil and a large amount of defensive investment to survive a +1 LO Outrage. Long story short, you can't outrun MixMence and survive through DD Kingdra with the same set. Even if there was such a set, it would fail pretty hard against Latias. Krilowatt isn't going to be an all-purpose Dragon slayer any way you cut it unless you run Choice Scarf and Draco Meteor, in which case your main problem is going to be CM + Recover Latias or quite literally anything with a decent amount of special bulk, as you lose the free LO in order to not get hit first. You also have no access to common moves that make Choice Scarfers so useful: U-turn, Trick, and Explosion/Selfdestruct, making it an even less appealing way of dealing with these threats. That being said, the argument about Draco Meteor should not be happening. It isn't as useful as some are arguing, and is not as overpowered as others are arguing at the same time.

Well, since I got that out of the way, I've done some updating to my submission. Take a look (comments and concerns welcome), notably removing Superpower, adding Disable to the Egg Moves list, and expanding the Comments section.

EDIT: At the behest of Beej, I have finalized my submission, so comments and concerns are more welcome than ever.

 

[beej]

There are many good submissions in this thread that are well-presented. As usual, I think the quality has kind of dropped off around the last few submissions. The best way to make me look at a submission is to make it well-presented to the point where I don't have to intensively search for certain things, like what notable moves you disallowed, or anything of that sort. But just like in the stat spread submissions, just being well-presented is not reason enough for me to consider it. I like to think that my slates have been picked to present a level of diversity, so you should *absolutely* try to prove that your spread is significantly different from all the others in some form or fashion and make this fact very evident to me.

To give you an idea of what I'm looking in a movepool right now, I am giving permission to work on final submissions to Admiral_Korski, Deck Knight, Rising_Dusk and Jibaku. I suggest that some of you with well-presented movepools that follow these four movepools edit their submissions to fit what I've specified here. I would also advise these four users to make their final submissions as close to this as possible, even though they've already done a good job, just on the basis that it makes it easier for everyone else and myself to see exactly what your movepool has to offer over the others.

 

[Daniel Craig]

ahh man no one put sand tomb in level up moves :l

i think it deserves a spot cus its from a beach and stuff

anyway they all look good, its so hard to choose right now :l

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Admiral_Korski submission is currently my favorite submission so far. He really explained every aspect of it with such detail and I have to say that I'm impressed by it. A few things I want to ask and/or mention.

First thing is where's Brick Break? While weaker than Superpower, it's generally considered a balanced move and still provides a useful Fighting move for this Pokemon to use. Another thing I been meaning to ask is if it's possible to add Screech somewhere? Screech allows the physical moveset to be in par with the Special set which seems like a positive thing to me.

Aqua Jet – I decided no on Aqua Jet to dissuade anti-lead Krilowatt from showing up and to dissuade priority in general. As such, Krilowatt has only one priority move in Vacuum Wave, and a very weak one at that, so the decision on priority will have to be made with an absolute need in mind.

Anti-Lead Krilowatt wouldn't have successful anyway. Most of which are faster than K-watt and don't die in one hit. Aqua Jet even with STAB isn't powerful enough to use mainstream so I wouldn't say having this move would be bad.

 

[Korski]

Thanks for the comments, GT.

While constructing this movepool, it became clear to me that Fighting-type moves offered mostly redundant coverage with other types (Fire/Ground). I wanted physical Fighting type moves to either not overlap in utility with one another (which is why I originally had Superpower and Low Kick) or be only situationally useful (which is why Low Kick is now the only option as it doesn't offer special sweepers automatic protection against Blissey). Brick Break is a fine enough move for breaking screens, but it overlaps entirely with Low Kick in terms of functionality and is in most cases (as in, cases where you will be needing a Fighting-type move) inferior to Low Kick, which is why I'm leaving it out on the grounds that it is superfluous.

Regarding Screech, I like the idea, especially considering I already have Fake Tears in the movepool, and just about every movepool submitted is scrambling for reasons to use Kril's physical attacking options. In place of Screech I offered a Swagger + Heart Swap combination that could net you more positive results over time at the expense of a moveslot. I think Screech is marginally useful in this metagame only if you have Pursuit (hi Colossoil), as the opponent will in most cases be more inclined to switch out than to stay in and take what might as well be a +2 attack. SwaggerSwap shares this danger, along with the dangers outlined in my Comments section; however, the opponent can't keep switching forever and may find it difficult to switch around to a point where their current on-field Pokemon won't mind being confused and potentially offering Krilowatt +2 Attack for keeps, whereas it is much easier to switch around to a point where the opponent can get a Pokemon in that isn't so concerned about having -2 Defense. As such, it has a certain advantage over even Fake Tears, as the permanent Attack boost could aid it both on semi-stall teams and in late-game cleanup situations given a good amount of prediction.

And I'll concede the point about anti-lead Krilowatt. Running a few calculations, Kril doesn't utilize Aqua Jet to keep anything of note from setting up SR except perhaps Taunt Azelf and Taunt Aerodactyl. I will note, however, that LO Krilowatt is quite capable of 2HKOing every common lead bar Machamp, Swampert (close), and Tyranitar (very close) with a LO set of Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Aqua Jet while taking limited damage and only allowing the opponent one turn of action before fainting, due to Aqua Jet or other SE attacks. I'm still leaving it out as a form of differentiation from the other spreads and because I can't think of a particular scenario where a water-type priority move would aid in the countering of a particular threat (except, perhaps, a very weakened DDTar), but I will change the reasoning in my post to reflect these changes.

Sorry I didn't apply your changes, although I really appreciate the comments. I hope I've explained myself and my decision making process well enough, and if others come forward with similar concerns I may be convinced to rethink my positions on a few things.

 

[Zystral]

Well, I've reformatted my post slightly to make it easier to read, I've also added some extra comments to certain moves which have come under lots of controversy, and put a summary at the end. Also I have compared my own movepool to others and thus I have made some of my comments and whatnot to reflect accordingly.

Hopefully, it's somewhat appealing to some people, and I'd appreciate any comments.

Point of interest

 

[Jibaku]

Finalized my movepool, with a few changes. Criticism is very welcome =)

Link:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2606136&postcount=6

Changes:
- Added a bit of reasoning behind some moves.
- Added a notable differences section
- Removed Rock Slide
- Removed Fake Out
- Added Sand Tomb to level up
- Added Follow Me to egg moves
- Night Slash and Sand Tomb are now Heart Scale moves
- Added Metronome into egg moves
- Added Swagger to TM
- Added Me First to Egg moves

 

[Banryu]

I'm seriously starting to question the viability of Draco Meteor and Heart Swap over other, superior options (competetively-speaking, mind). Petrie911 has already explained why Draco Meteor isn't such a great move on Kril EVEN in terms of beating Kingdra, and Jibaku's comments in his movepool regarding Heart Swap make me seriously question its actual competetive viability as well, considering that Perish Song and Haze are much more reliable options for beating CM boosters like Suicune and Celebi. Given that, it seems not to be good for much outside of flavor, and as a flavor move, Heart Swap should be discluded from Krilowatt's movepool on the basis that it's essentially a signature move of Manaphy's. I implore the movepool creators to consider these points on the two moves, and only to implement them into the movepools if you actually think they would see a significant degree of use and viability.

I just also want to mention that I'm really looking for Imprison, Counter, and Mirror Coat to be in Krilowatt's movepool; this is more of a personal preference than anything, but I'd just really like to see someone in OU who is particularly capable of using Imprison, and I happen to think that Counter and Mirror Coat fit the concept too well to be omitted. Thanks everyone for your effort on these, and keep up the good work.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

My opinion on Heart Swap is that it might or might not be a viable competitive move, the theorymon on this is inconclusive and we should find out whether it is by giving it to Krilowatt. This would be the kind of learning that people like to say is the entire purpose of CAP. I'm considering adding Imprison to my movepool for the same reason, although I'm also sort of interested in whether Disable, which is already in there, can get any use if Imprison is excluded. I'm not sure which way to go on that one just yet.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well, I've reformatted my post slightly to make it easier to read, I've also added some extra comments to certain moves which have come under lots of controversy, and put a summary at the end. Also I have compared my own movepool to others and thus I have made some of my comments and whatnot to reflect accordingly.

Hopefully, it's somewhat appealing to some people, and I'd appreciate any comments.

Point of interest

Minor notes:

For Egg moves, you can get Counter + Crunch from Sceptile (3rd Gen Breed move + 3rd Gen Tutor).


Here is a summary of my various changes for my Finalized Submission:

Competitive Changes: (these changes were made after some discussion based on competitive viability. I do not believe the moves are necessarily competitive)

Added Recycle (TM Add)
Added Me First
Added Copycat

Summary: Not much here. The core of the movepool remains unchanged but it will be interesting to see how support moves that aren't hazards play out.

Flavor Changes:

(Me First Add): Confusion removed, Level-Up list rearranged.
Bubble replaced by Dragonbreath, Level-Up list rearranged.
(Copycat Add): Dragonbreath removed, Level-Up re-arranged.

Summary: Confusion was the original basis for the psychic-esque support moves, but Disable was already on the movepool and several "psuedo-Psychic" Pokemon have it in their movepools to establish that basis. I though Dragonbreath would be cool on a Scizor->Dragon U-turn to cause them pain and headaches, as well as a reliable type-neutral paralysis move to use against Jirachi. Eventually it received the axe, since Bubblebeam makes the movepool look more cohesive.

 

[Korski]

Okay after some intense soul-searching and discussion on #cap, I have decided to add Imprison to my movepool on the basis that it's a good way of dealing with some key threats, notably Crocune and Metagross, among others. It's a level-up move now and has taken the place of Swagger. Nothing about the movepool has changed except for the addition of Imprison (Swagger is a TM), so no big deal. Just thought I'd let everyone know and I'll probably stop tinkering with it at this point, so don't expect any other changes. This is my final, final submission and I'm sticking with it.

 

[Zystral]

Thanks for that, Deck.

I am considering placing Me First into my own movepool, most likely as a Heart Scale move, since Scarfed Earthquakes and Close Combats will be popping up around as a result of Krilowatt's use, although I dislike copying other's ideas. As well as that, outside of perhaps Scarfed Flygon and one or two other threats (DPulse Latias... Shadow Ball Gengar?), I don't see a real necessity.

Regarding Superpower, Heart Swap and some other points, (I might edit these into my post if there are still any objections);
- Superpower: Yes, you can OHKO Blissey with Stealth Rock and Sandstorm. But then let's say we have something along the lines of Superpower/Ice Beam/TBolt/Surf. That doesn't look to hard to switch into and counter, especially since you will be at -1 Defense after that. Krilowatt may resist two priority moves, one of which is very common, but you can't leave the chance of a Scarfer or Sucker Punch. There are ways to work around Superpower, some of those are called Gengar and Latias.
As I have said, it is in my movepool because it brings something useful, yet there is also a drawback for using it.

- Heart Swap: If you encounter a stat-upper, particularly one that uses Calm Mind, Bulk Up or Curse, you are going to have an abnormally hard time countering them otherwise, since Krilowatt's 80-odd offenses aren't going to be breaking through hard enough. You're also giving up a coverage move and relying on the fact that your foe is actually running a stat-up sweeper if you're going for a sweep (which you shouldn't be doing).
It's a very helpful tool, but must be played correctly.

- Draco Meteor: Trace in the rain lets you outspeed Kingdra. Otherwise, you are fast enough to outrun it anyway. Draco Meteor has a great chance of 2HKOing Kingdra, while it only has Outrage and Draco Meteor to hit you back with.
Kingdra vs. You
Unboosted Outrage - 34.5% - 40.9%
+1 Outrage - 51.7% - 61.2%
Specs Draco Meteor - 60.5% - 71.33%
Also, if you wish to go sans Ice Beam, you can use Draco Meteor to still hit Flygons, Salamences and whatnot.

 

[TPM]

So I've decided to take a crack at this. Here I go...
Level Up Moves:

Hide

Level Up Moves
H Sand Tomb
- Scratch
- Tail Whip
- Bubble
6 Confusion
12 Thundershock
18 Aqua Ring
24 Magic Coat
30 Thunder Wave
36 Psychic
42 Crabhammer
48 Mirror Coat
54 Discharge
60 Power Trick

So, with its two abilities, I was getting a very mystical feel from this CAP, thus I made Psychic-moves a pretty big part of this guys move pool. Scratch is a pretty basic move to include as a starter move, what with its low power and Krilowatt's pincers. Most creatures start out with a stat lowering move too, and in my opinion Tail Whip is the most fitting. Bubble is STAB, but very weak, so it also makes a nice little add on to the starting moves. Confusion reflects the mystical tone I wanted to add to Krilowatt's move pool. Thundershock is basic STAB, and Aqua Ring fits with the water typing, and has an element of mysticism to it. Magic Coat is further adds to the Psychic-esque movepool I'm aiming for. Thunder Wave is mainly just filler. Psychic continues to add onto the mystic element. Crabhammer is on there because Krilo resembles its other two users. Discharge is good STAB and Mirror Coat and Power Trick are there for more mystical awesomeness. Sand Tomb is just a neat little move I really wanted in the move pool, and the ocean is filled with sand, so it works too. Notable moves are Power Trick, Mirror Coat, Discharge and Aqua Ring. Crabhammer and Sand Tomb are all usable aswell.

Hide

TM Moves
TM02 - Dragon Claw
TM03 - Water Pulse
TM06 - Toxic
TM07 - Hail
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM20 - Safeguard
TM21 - Frustration
TM23 - Iron Tail
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM25 - Thunder
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 - Return
TM28 - Dig
TM29 - Psychic
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM31 - Brick Break
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM49 - Snatch
TM54 - False Swipe
TM55 - Brine
TM56 - Fling
TM58 - Endure
TM59 - Dragon Pulse
TM62 - Silver Wind
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM66 - Payback
TM67 - Recycle
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM72 - Avalanche
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM74 - Gyro Ball
TM77 - Psych Up
TM78 - Captivate
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM84 - Poison Jab
TM87 - Swagger
TM90 - Substitute
HM01 - Cut
HM03 - Surf
HM05 - Defog
HM05 - Whirlpool
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM07 - Waterfall
HM08 - Rock Climb

Nothing overly special, only really notable that Fire and Ice moves have been completely omitted, for I believe the coverage combined with their power would defeat the whole "utility counter" concept. X-Scissor was removed as well, just so you have to either run Bug Bite or a special set to beat Celebi. Notable moves are

Hide

Tutor Moves
Air Cutter
Bounce
Dive
Earth Power
Endeavor
Fire Punch
Fury Cutter
Helping Hand
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Knock Off
Magnet Rise
Mud-Slap
Seed Bomb
Signal Beam
Snore
Superpower
ThunderPunch
Twister
Uproar
Vacuum Wave
Bug Bite
Low Kick
Magic Coat

Whilst in the TM Moves I ommited Ice and Fire moves, I let the elemental punches in, because they are low powered and give you reason to run a Physical set. Both Low Kick and Superpower were allowed, because they both fit the utility counter concept, Low Kick only good against certain threats, Superpower being useless on everything past the first turn.

Hide

Egg Moves (Bug and Fairy Groups)
Draco Meteor
Screech
Psywave
Aqua Jet
Heart Swap
Quick Attack
Aura Sphere
Metal Sound
Assist
Counter

Well first a quick explanation of the egg groups; Bug is because well, it looks like a bug, especially with those antennae and the six limbs. Fairy continues the whole mystic theme, plus gives access to some neat moves that would otherwise be impossible to put on.

Overall I left out Overheat, and special Ice moves due to power, Outrage, mainly because I do not believe it fits and doesn't really add anything to the move-pool that Draco Meteor doesn't. Metal Sound is here over Fake Tears just so there is some risk involved in stat-lowering.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

So I'm working on my movepool, and this is my first time submitting one. Are we generally supposed to only use competitive moves listed in the 'allowed' section or are we basically allowed to use any move not in the disallowed section?

Edit: nevermind I read the OP I'll just use this post to put my move pool in.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

PiplupMan: Since Manaphy is genderless, Heart Swap can't be an egg move.

Also, Me First is now in my list of egg moves. I'm also rethinking Outrage again, but I'll probably keep it.

 

[sax king]

I think certain moves are almost required to be put into the movepool.

Imprison- a weird move, but a great way to counter something specifically
Any kind of Priority Move- something to help counter quick pokemon
Mirror Coat and Counter- to retaliate against either a physical or defensive threat
Heart Swap- to counter stat abusers
Rock Blast or moves like it- to counter substitute or sash users
Haze- to counter stat abusers
Mist- again, to counter stat abusers
Me First- something great for specific counters (earth power on scarftran, draco meteor on salamence, and others)

I think that it should also have a really wide type coverage to cover different types, and also physical and special moves of each type for even wider coverage.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Mist- again, to counter stat abusers

Mist, I believe, only clears stat downs, thus no help to CAP10. If I'm wrong and Haze and Mist are in essence the same then only one of them is needed.

 

[sp unit 262]

Mist, I believe, only clears stat downs, thus no help to CAP10. If I'm wrong and Haze and Mist are in essence the same then only one of them is needed.

Mist works like Clear Body, it blocks stats changes.

 

[Seizen]

Mist works like Clear Body, it blocks stats changes.

-sighs- Clear Body blocks stat drops made by other people. If you use a move which causes a stat-drop yourself, such as Curse, then the drop goes through. This means that basically, you can use Swords Dance and then not need to worry about Intimidate lowering your increasements in the stat.

Of the submissions submitted so far (that sounds long-winded), I prefer Deck Knight's and Jibaku's the most.

This is due to the fact that Deck has decided to ignore the general public opinion and create a movepool which relies on a lot of coverage moves in order to stop the potential coverage set "T-bolt/Surf/Ice Beam/Filler". While there is a lack of Ice moves in the Special set, this merely implies to use the Physical set to do more, which is helpful.

Jibaku meanwhile has delivered some solid arguments to negate the majority of potential coverage abusers from decided to use CAP10 to do so, pointing out that even with the mediocre stats it has + LO bonus, it isn't particularly brilliant at sweeping, and that if you want a sweeper, choose a different Pkmn. I like the breeding aspect he gives, due to the fact that it relies a lot on less used styles of breeding, such as item holding or breeding with an older generation, simply to get certain moves.

 

[sp unit 262]

-sighs- Clear Body blocks stat drops made by other people. If you use a move which causes a stat-drop yourself, such as Curse, then the drop goes through. This means that basically, you can use Swords Dance and then not need to worry about Intimidate lowering your increasements in the stat.

I know that. Like I said mist works like Clear Body, self induced stat drops still go through.

 

[beej]

This will be up for another short while, definitely less than a day. After this expanse of time, I don't think there is much diversity among the movepools to look through other than what I selected earlier, so I will be providing permission to one more user to make a final submission: ZystraL.

The movepool poll will be going up ASAP.

 

[Zystral]

Thank you for the honour, Beej, I have made a few preferential edits, most of which are minor, and am ready for my post to be a final submission.

 

[beej]

I like my selection of submissions. This thread will be closed, and I will be posting the poll immediately.

Edit: To whoever locked the thread, I didn't actually forget. I just need to edit the information out of the posts before I closed the topic permanently. Sorry for the confusion, I probably should have noted that it wasn't *actually* closed. This is basically to make sure people don't make additional posts.