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Submit stat spreads for our CAP Pokemon here. If you intend to post a submission, I suggest that you read the other ones in the thread so that you don't post a duplicate. There shouldn't be multiple spreads that look alike, so you should be making your submission distinct.
reachzero said:
Name: Utility Counter General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time. Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once. Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?
Physical Tankiness (PT) - Very Good
Physical Sweepiness (PS) - Good
Special Tankiness (ST) - Very Good
Special Sweepiness (SS) - Good
Rules:
Post a submission only if it is significantly different than others already posted. This is a no-brainer, but it's been a big problem in past CAPs. There really shouldn't be like 6 spreads that are effectively the same, so make it your business to read through the other submissions.
No threadhogging. This is an open discussion and should not devolve into a back-and-forth between two people. This is something that can tend to happen at this point in the project a lot, so watch it.
Don't get hung up on the same points. The discussion should remain fresh throughout the course of this thread, and you really shouldn't be posting the same arguments over and over.
While this is optional, I seriously recommend that you post calcs along with your submission. Paragraphs can get your point across if people bother to read and analyze them, but calcs are the absolute best way to prove what your stat spread can do without requiring a lot of dense reading material.
For reference, you can find out your base stat rating by clicking here. All stat submissions must be within the values shown in this post to be considered valid.
Note up front: This is only a concept of an actual stat spread submission. There are no calculations at all yet. If I find there is enough people who like the idea of a stat spread like this, I'll spend my time into doing calcs and making a finalized submission. The stats I chose are therefor also not finalized and only a rough draft of what they'll turn out to be later on after I run sufficient calculations to see which stats needs adjusting.
Introduction
I've been thinking of how a stat spread can best suit this particular concept. I've went beyond the thinking of what stats would be good to make it function, to where I started thinking about the following question: What can we do to it's stat spread so in it's actual daily usage, the EV spreads differs on every set and is therefor more tailored to the pokemon you want to counter?
In other words, when I'm EVing CAP10 later on, the stats should be made up in a way that EVing is always (or at least a significant amount of times) different depending on the pokemon you want to counter. This means that if you want to be bulky, putting 252 EV's in HP should not be an option as that raises overall tankiness, and would count for any bulky CAP10 spread.
The same goes for when you want CAP10 to be more offensive. Just adding 252 (s)atk, 252 Spd, 4 HP should not be a standard EV spread. If it would be a standard that is capable of countering more than 1 group of pokemons, it means that when you choose this spread to counter 1 pokemon, you basically already got the right EV spread to counter others as well.
Explaining the stats
With the introduction in mind, I went toying around with X-Act's Maximizing offenses article and the relating DefenseEffortValues Applet to first figure out a stat spread which has high enough HP where there would always be only 0 HP EV's added when considering 504 (not 510, since the last 4 will always be put in HP anyway.) EV's left to spend.
This means that in this particular stat spread, it'll always be better to invest into either defences if you want to be more bulky since that gives you far more bang for your buck.
With offenses, I tried to do the same, making CAP10 rather fast by default, so EV spending into speed is not something you'd need to do very often, making you have to think more about what to actually do with the EV's to make it counter the pokemon it's meant to counter in a more efficient manner.
Stat spread
HP/Def/SpD/Atk/SpA/Spe
180/50/50/60/60/100
When I run this stat spread through the Pokemon BSR app, the ODB is -5.46. Making a technically incorrect, but still fun comparison, if I enter Zapdos' defences into the BSR app, while keeping the offenses of the above spread, the ODB is -5.66, meaning 90/85/90 achieves an almost identical rating to 180/50/50.
Non-EV'ed and with a non-def boosting nature, the stats will be 501/136/136. To give a value to it's tankiness, it'd be 68136 (HP * either defence stat). If you put 252 EV's into HP, it would be 564/136/136 which gives a value of 76704. If you put 252 EV's into either def stat it would turn out to be 501/199, which would give a tankiness value of 99699.
Measuring this against, for example Zapdos, and taking into account his two main sets, the value is just a little over 100k both times.
So 180/50/50 could be considered rather bulky.
As for the offenses, they are only a rough draft. My first idea for speed was like 130+, since I want this thing to be mighty fast, but I chose 100 speed as it would give it enough speed to outrun a major part of the metagame, always getting a quick hit in (unless the opponent switches). In my opinion, I prefer low offensive stats but high speed and decent defences so you can hit first, live through a hit and hit first again, assuming the opponent stays in. This will prevent it from being a hard hitter of any kind, preventing it to go on a possible sweep. Hence the rather low offensive stats.
Calculations
As I said, there aren't any yet. I'm not yet inclined to do a lot of calculations (when I'm not really good at them in the first place) when this set may not even get much attention because others have different ideas about a possible stat spread.
So without further ado, I hope to receive lots of comments or pokes about what could be wrong with the stat spread or what you like about it, so I can improve it. If I see there is enough support or there are enough people asking for calcs, I will add them for a more finalized submission.
I've been fidgeting around with the base stat rating along with the damage calculator and started putting together a first draft of what I think could work.
NOTICE THIS A VERY ROUGH DRAFT
General train of thought:
I thought as I saw the concept that this thing must be faster then its target if it intends to counter it. So first off I decided that for that to work it has to be quick to take on Gengar or Infernape. At 112 (shared with Purugly) the most common pokemon that could beat it without priority is Starmie who can to nothing to Electric/Water anyway. From there, I decided that for 10 to be versatile, it had to have a generally even P/S balance. After a few calculations, I realized that the prevalence of higher powered moves on the Special side meant that 10 could get by with a higher SpD then Def. Along the same train of thought, i gave it a higher Atk then SpA. From there, I realized (thank you Shuckle and SoulSilver) that a higher HP is better than having large Def and SpD.
To round it out, a 540 total seemed the best to aim for as any.
Def Calculations:
Code:
252 Timid Choice Specs Starmie Psychic
vs. 252/0 Bold Pokemon : 39.8% - 47.2%
252 Timid Choice Specs Starmie Psychic
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 28.3% - 33.5%
Thats the worst Starmie can do
Now for real
Using the list [URL="http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2527413&postcount=91"]here [/URL]for reference
Physical
[COLOR=Red](red is possible KO with SR)[/COLOR]
252 Adamant Babiri Berry Tyranitar Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 41.1% - 48.4%
252 Adamant Babiri Berry Tyranitar +1 Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 61% - 72%
252 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 61% - 72%
252 Jolly Life Orb Gliscor Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 57.3% - 67.5%
Impish Leftovers Gliscor Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 34.1% - 40.7%
236 Adamant Choice Band Metagross Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 60.6% - 71.5%
Impish Leftovers Hippowdon Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 39.4% - 46.7%
124 Adamant Choice Band Hippowdon Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 72.4% - 85.8%
204 Adamant Choice Band Swampert Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : [COLOR=Red]76% - 90.2%[/COLOR]
4 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 39% - 46.3%
252 Adamant Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 50.4% - 59.3%
252 Adamant Life Orb Gyarados +1 Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : [COLOR=Red]75.2% - 88.6%[/COLOR]
252 Jolly Choice Scarf Flygon Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 45.1% - 53.7%
252 Adamant Choice Band Flygon Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 74.8% - 88.2%
252 Jolly Life Orb Flygon Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 58.5% - 69.5%
252 Adamant Expert Belt Electivire Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 46.3% - 54.5%
252 Adamant Life Orb Electivire +1 Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : [COLOR=Red]74.8% - 88.2%[/COLOR]
252 Jolly Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : [COLOR=Red]81.7% - 96.3% [/COLOR]
244 Naughty Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : [COLOR=Red]76.8% - 90.7%[/COLOR]
252 Adamant Leftovers Snorlax Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 35.4% - 41.9%
252 Adamant Choice Band Snorlax Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 52.8% - 62.6%
252 Quiet Life Orb Dragonite Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 48.4% - 56.9%
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 48% - 56.5%
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Earthquake
vs. 252/252 Bold Pokemon : 71.5% - 84.6%
Special:
252 Timid Life Orb Celebi Earth Power
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 32.9% - 39%
252 Timid Life Orb Celebi +1 Earth Power
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 49.2% - 58.1%
252 Modest Occa Berry Celebi Leaf Storm
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 65% - 76.8%
252 Timid Choice Scarf Roserade Leaf Storm
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 68.7% - 80.9%
252 Timid Choice Scarf Roserade Energy Ball
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 39.4% - 46.7%
Besides Grass Knot, many special attackers have problems with this combo in standard play.
252 Timid Leftovers Latias Dragon Pulse
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 20.3% - 24%
252 Timid Leftovers Latias +1 Dragon Pulse
vs. 252/252 Careful Pokemon : 30.5% - 36%
Where I need help:
This set obviously doesn't need Levitate to take care of EQ, but if Levitate is chosen, should the Def go down? I'll also do some more calcs on non-super-effective special hits to see if the SpD is too high. Then there's the question of should 10 be able to attack well or just be able to cripple its opponent? From my calcs so far, as long as 10 doesn't switch in on a boosted EQ, it has 1 to 2 turns to cause damage. So if anyone can give me advice, what are a few pokemon that I should use for practice Attacking calcs?
Well, I've got a rough idea of what to put in the stats.
EDIT: Modified it to go by the given data.
HP - 104
Atk - 84
Def - 97
SpAtk- 83
SpDef - 99
Spe - 105
This satisfies all the criteria. Base Stat Total = 572.
The attack stats are underwhelming for a sweeper, thus discouraging that. The speed stat is excellent, so that we can use it for countering non-setup threats. The defenses aren't good enough for a tank/ wall, but don't make it a glass cannon either. Instead, we get a Pokemon capable of taking a solid hit, and KOing back, while still staying within the criteria.
I will explain each of these choices both qualitatively and quantitatively with numbers straight out of OU's most popular sets for the top 20 Pokemon, which I feel is a legitimate basis upon which to structure CAP10. If it can be tech'd in different ways to beat each of the Pokemon in the top 20 list of OU, then it will meet the criteria for the concept and be a successful utility counter.
Distribution Style Reasoning:
Effectively, this Pokemon needs the offensive capacity to actually threaten potential targets such as Lucario, Infernape, and so on, while still maintaining sufficient defensive prowess that it is not incapable of addressing Pokemon such as Salamence, Metagross, or Latias as necessary. I chose to go in a slightly defensive direction with this stat distribution particularly because there are numerous high-powered threats CAP10 will be dealing with and the bulk will let it handle them more comfortably. We want CAP10 to soft counter these Pokemon, but we also want it to be reliable at what it does. Furthermore, a defensive distribution helps prevent CAP10 from being used too terribly offensively. An offensive stat distribution might encourage people to attempt a sweeping set, that may even be more successful than the countering sets. So, to keep the Pokemon in the spirit of the concept as well as to make sure it was damned good at what it does, I chose to go in a slightly more defensive direction with CAP10's stats. I will explain with calculations below the exact reasons why I chose the stats as I have, so let's skip right to the nitty gritty.
Physical / Special Split:
I chose to go with a very evenly distributed stat spread in terms of the physical and special split. The reason for this is simple - numerous target Pokemon have a weaker defensive stat. For instance, if you're going to attempt to take down Skarmory, its SPD stat is only 70 compared to its 140 DEF stat. Furthermore, many of these Pokemon additionally attempt to EV themselves to be bulkier in certain regards over others. By having a very even spectrum for CAP10, we can exploit these typical EV sets and beat up on the target where it hurts them the most.
I tried to maximize the Attack stat as much as possible, since CAP10 will need it in order to combat threats such as Latias and Tyranitar who are much bulkier on the special side. I was limited by Rank 5 attacking stats, though, so 84 Attack was the maximum that could be had with the necessary Speed base stat to outpace threats like Salamence, Jirachi, and so forth.
Offensive Stat Reasoning:
These offensive stats were chosen because alongside a 102 speed stat they maximize the offenses of CAP10 within the constraints of rank 5 (good) offenses. These stats require significant investment in order to obtain the necessary OHKOs on potential targets such as Lucario, but provide the most plausible opportunity to actually beat these threats given the stat style requirements placed on the stat spread.
Code:
All calculations will assume a neutral nature in the attacking stat,
so add 10% damage if you're using a boosting nature. You shouldn't be
using a reducing nature ever, though, if you're using that attack.
These calculations assume the following EV spread based on the threat
you're facing:[I] 252 HP / 40 <Attacking Stat> / 212 Spe[/I]
For some threats, those 212 EVs may be placed into a defense, but that
doesn't change the offensive calculations any.
[B]Fire Blast[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Fire Blast
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 109.6% - 129.4%
vs. 252/0 Relaxed Shed Shell Forretress : 132.2% - 155.9%
vs. 252/0 Impish Shed Shell Skarmory : 62.3% - 73.7%
vs. Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 74% - 87.5%
vs. 112/0 Adamant Life Orb Metagross : 51.7% - 60.8%
vs. 252/92 Sassy Leftovers Bronzong : 33.7% - 40.2%
vs. Naive Leftovers Magnezone : 67.6% - 79.7%
[B]Flamethrower[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Flamethrower
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 86.3% - 102.6%
vs. 252/0 Relaxed Shed Shell Forretress : 105.1% - 124.3%
vs. 252/0 Impish Shed Shell Skarmory : 49.7% - 58.7%
vs. Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 59.1% - 69.8%
vs. 112/0 Adamant Life Orb Metagross : 41.3% - 48.6%
vs. 252/92 Sassy Leftovers Bronzong : 26.6% - 32%
vs. Naive Leftovers Magnezone : 53.4% - 63.3%
[B]Earthquake[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Earthquake
vs. 112/12 Adamant Life Orb Metagross : 28% - 33.4%
vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 69.3% - 83%
vs. 4/0 Naive Shuca Berry Heatran : 34.6% - 41.4%
vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 28.9% - 34.1%
vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Jirachi : 29.2% - 34.7%
vs. 0/4 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 56.2% - 66.2%
vs. 252/120 Calm Leftovers Tentacruel : 39% - 46.2%
vs. Naive Leftovers Magnezone : 74% - 88.3%
vs. Mild Expert Belt Electivire : 61.9% - 73.5%
vs. 0/4 Timid Choice Specs Jolteon : 64.9% - 76.8%
[B]Payback[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Payback
vs. 128/0 Timid Leftovers Latias : 38.4% - 45.6%
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Latias : 42.4% - 50.3%
vs. 0/4 Timid Life Orb Gengar : 67.4% - 79.7%
vs. 252/168 Bold Leftovers Rotom-H : 28.9% - 34.2%
vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Scarf Rotom-H : 46.3% - 54.5%
vs. Naive Focus Sash Azelf : 54.3% - 63.9%
vs. 252/252 Bold Leftovers Cresselia : 17.1% - 20.3%
[B]Waterfall[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Waterfall
vs. 136/0 Adamant Leftovers Rhyperior : 42.2% - 49.6%
vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 34.6% - 40.9%
vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 41.5% - 50.2%
vs. 244/0 Calm Leftovers Heatran : 34.9% - 42.2%
vs. 252/168 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 23.3% - 27.6%
vs. 252/40 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 28.8% - 34.5%
vs. 252/252 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 13.4% - 16.3%
vs. Naive Life Orb Infernape : 63.5% - 75.8%
[B]Surf[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Surf
vs. 136/0 Adamant Leftovers Rhyperior : 109.6% - 129.6%
vs. 136/0 Adamant Leftovers Rhyperior (Sandstorm): 74.1% - 87.4%
vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 48.8% - 57.2%
vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar (Sandstorm) : 32% - 38.3%
vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 60.1% - 71.2%
vs. 244/12 Calm Leftovers Heatran : 41.1% - 49%
vs. 252/88 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 51.4% - 60.5%
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 66.1% - 78%
vs. 252/0 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 25.2% - 29.7%
vs. Naive Life Orb Infernape : 92.2% - 109.2%
[B]Thunderbolt[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Thunderbolt
vs. Adamant Life Orb Gyarados : 112.4% - 131.7%
vs. 156/0 Adamant Leftovers Gyarados : 100.5% - 117.8%
vs. 188/0 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 42.9% - 50.9%
vs. 136/0 Timid Leftovers Starmie : 71.9% - 85.4%
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Starmie : 80.9% - 96.2%
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Suicune : 40.6% - 48%
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Suicune +1 : 27.2% - 32.7%
vs. 12/0 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 59.6% - 69.9%
vs. 252/92 Calm Leftovers Empoleon : 40.9% - 48.4%
vs. 252/136 Calm Leftovers Tentacruel : 35.2% - 41.8%
vs. 252/0 Impish Shed Shell Skarmory : 74.3% - 88%
vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 37.5% - 44.1%
[B]Ice Beam[/B]
40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Ice Beam
vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 100.3% - 118.4%
vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Salamence : 75.1% - 89.3%
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 88.1% - 104%
vs. 248/0 Bold Leftovers Zapdos : 35.5% - 41.8%
vs. 248/224 Calm Leftovers Zapdos : 25.6% - 30.3%
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Celebi : 30.7% - 36.1%
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Latias : 33.1% - 39.1%
vs. 128/0 Timid Leftovers Latias : 30% - 35.4%
vs. 252/88 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 34.3% - 40.5%
[B]Superpower
[/B]40 Timid Leftovers Pokemon Superpower
vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 68.2% - 80.8%
vs. 40/0 Jolly Choice Band Weavile : 137.5% - 162.2%
vs. 0/4 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 66.9% - 79%
vs. Naive Leftovers Magnezone : 44.1% - 52.7%
All of these score the necessary OHKOs and 2HKOs without too much investment, if any at all given 4x weaknesses. These will make the CAP sufficient enough of an offensive threat to not be taken for granted, but at the same time still removing much possibility of a sweeper set ever coming to be.
Defensive Stat Reasoning:
When considering how to build CAP10's defensive stats, one must consider just how specifically we want it to counter physical and special sets both individually and together. If we choose an abnormally large HP stat (~150) with relatively low defensive stats (~70), then you successfully wall the heavily EV'd end of the spectrum, while failing to beat the other end. Furthermore, at the other end of the spectrum, choosing a low HP stat (~70) and large defensive stats (~125) will have you successfully wall both ends of the spectrum at once with just EV investment into HP.
In light of that, I chose the middle ground. With an HP stat of 125 and 85 defenses, you can choose to EV into one defense to wall it very effectively, but you will not be rendered impotent against attackers from the other side of the spectrum. That isn't to say that you can counter them, as you won't be able to, it will just permit CAP10 to serve as a useful member of the team no matter the battle. It won't become a useless waste of space if you happen to be against a team you can't counter, it just won't be directly countering any of those threats. I feel that this is crucial for CAP10's overall success in the OU metagame.
I have prepared dozens of calculations for this, all in the hidden tag below, so if you're interested, feel free to browse through them. They are presented based on the top ~20 Pokemon in OU, including some of the walls so that you can see how little they do to you, and all of what they can do to a CAP10 that was prepared for them. (Best Case Scenario)
Code:
All calculations will be made with a neutral nature, so +10% damage
for reducing and -10% damage for boosting.
[B]Scizor[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor U-turn : 36.6% - 43.2%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch : 7.7% - 9.3%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor Superpower : 41.6% - 49.1%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor Pursuit : 27.8% - 32.8%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Scizor +2 Bullet Punch : 13.4% - 15.9%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Scizor +2 Brick Break : 44.9% - 53.1%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Scizor +2 Bug Bite : 54.2% - 63.7%
[B]Tyranitar[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge : 53.1% - 62.8%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch : 42.5% - 50.2%
vs. 252 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake : 70.9% - 83.7%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Stone Edge : 32.4% - 38.3%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Crunch : 26% - 30.6%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Earthquake : 43.2% - 51.1%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Superpower : 26% - 30.6%
vs. 252 Adamant Babiri Berry Tyranitar +1 Stone Edge : 53.1% - 62.8%
vs. 252 Adamant Babiri Berry Tyranitar +1 Crunch : 42.5% - 50.2%
vs. 252 Adamant Babiri Berry Tyranitar +1 Earthquake : 70.9% - 83.7%
[B]Salamence[/B]
252/252/0 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage : 74.7% - 88.1%
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Earthquake : 83.3% - 98.2%
vs. 24 Naive Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast : 15.4% - 18.3%
vs. 240 Naive Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor : 65.4% - 77.3%
vs. 16 Naive Life Orb Salamence Earthquake : 47.1% - 55.9%
vs. 240 Naive Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast : 18.7% - 22%
vs. 16 Naive Life Orb Salamence Outrage : 43% - 50.4%
[B]Heatran[/B]
252/0/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Naive Choice Scarf Heatran Flamethrower : 14.8% - 17.6%
vs. 252 Naive Choice Scarf Heatran Earth Power : 37.9% - 44.9%
vs. 4 Naive Choice Scarf Heatran Explosion : 83% - 97.8%
vs. 252 Naive Choice Scarf Heatran Fire Blast : 18.7% - 22.2%
vs. 252 Naive Choice Scarf Heatran +1 Fire Blast : 28.2% - 33.3%
[B]Latias[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor : 58.4% - 68.9%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Surf : 13.2% - 15.6%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Dragon Pulse : 37.7% - 44.5%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Thunderbolt : 26.4% - 31.3%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Latias Draco Meteor : 39.2% - 46.3%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Latias Dragon Pulse : 25.1% - 29.7%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Latias Surf : 8.8% - 10.4%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Latias Thunderbolt : 17.6% - 20.9%
[B]Rotom-A[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. Bold Leftovers Rotom-A Thunderbolt : 20.5% - 24.4%
vs. Bold Leftovers Rotom-A Shadow Ball : 17.4% - 20.7%
vs. Bold Leftovers Rotom-A Leaf Storm : 40.1% - 47.6%
vs. Bold Leftovers Rotom-A Overheat : 9.9% - 11.9%
vs. Bold Leftovers Rotom-A Hydro Pump : 8.6% - 10.1%
vs. Bold Leftovers Rotom-A Blizzard : 8.6% - 10.1%
vs. Bold Leftovers Rotom-A Air Slash : 5.5% - 6.4%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A Thunderbolt : 25.8% - 30.4%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A Shadow Ball : 21.8% - 25.8%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A Leaf Storm : 50.7% - 59.9%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A Overheat : 12.6% - 15%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A Hydro Pump : 10.8% - 12.8%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A Blizzard : 10.8% - 12.8%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A Air Slash : 6.8% - 7.9%
[B]Gyarados[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Gyarados +1 Waterfall : 26.2% - 31.1%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Gyarados +1 Earthquake : 87.7% - 103.5%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Gyarados +1 Bounce : 28% - 33%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Gyarados +1 Stone Edge : 43.8% - 51.8%
[B]Jirachi[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi Iron Head : 5.3% - 6.2%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi ThunderPunch : 13.4% - 15.9%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi Zen Headbutt : 21.1% - 25.1%
vs. 80 Timid Leftovers Jirachi +1 Thunderbolt : 27.8% - 32.8%
vs. 80 Timid Leftovers Jirachi +1 Psychic : 39.2% - 46.5%
vs. 80 Timid Leftovers Jirachi +1 Flash Cannon : 8.8% - 10.4%
[B]Metagross[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Metagross Meteor Mash : 11.5% - 13.7%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Metagross Earthquake : 62.1% - 73.1%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Metagross Explosion : 154.6% - 181.9%
vs. 236 Adamant Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash : 13.2% - 15.4%
vs. 236 Adamant Choice Band Metagross Earthquake : 70.5% - 83.3%
vs. 236 Adamant Choice Band Metagross Explosion : 176.4% - 207.7%
[B]Gengar[/B]
252/0/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball : 33% - 39%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast : 32.6% - 38.5%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Gengar Thunderbolt : 26% - 30.6%
vs. Timid Life Orb Gengar Explosion : 74% - 87.2%
[B]Swampert[/B]
252/252/0 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 4 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert Earthquake : 45.4% - 54.2%
vs. Relaxed Leftovers Swampert Ice Beam : 7.5% - 8.8%
vs. Relaxed Leftovers Swampert Surf : 11.2% - 13.2%
vs. Relaxed Leftovers Swampert Hydro Pump : 13.9% - 16.5%
vs. Careful Leftovers Swampert +1 Earthquake : 67.4% - 79.7%
vs. Careful Leftovers Swampert +1 Avalanche : 13.4% - 15.9%
vs. Careful Leftovers Swampert +1 Waterfall : 13.4% - 15.9%
vs. Careful Leftovers Swampert +1 Stone Edge : 22.5% - 26.7%
[B]Lucario[/B]
96/252 Timid Leftovers Pokemon [Enough Speed to Outpace Jolly Luke)
vs. 252 Jolly Life Orb Lucario Close Combat : 48% - 56.6%
vs. 252 Jolly Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed : 21.4% - 25.3%
vs. 252 Jolly Life Orb Lucario +2 ExtremeSpeed : 42.7% - 50.4%
[B]Infernape[/B]
252/148/108 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 64 Naive Life Orb Infernape Close Combat : 39.2% - 46.5%
vs. 252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 Fire Blast : 48.2% - 56.8%
vs. 252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 (60bp Grass Special) : 64.3% - 75.8%
vs. 252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 (40bp Grass Special) : 42.7% - 50.7%
[B]Starmie[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. Timid Leftovers Starmie Surf : 9.9% - 11.7%
vs. Timid Leftovers Starmie Thunderbolt : 13.2% - 15.6%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump : 20.5% - 24%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Starmie Surf : 16.3% - 19.2%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt : 21.8% - 25.8%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Starmie Psychic : 30.6% - 36.3%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam : 10.8% - 12.8%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump : 23.3% - 27.8%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Starmie Surf : 18.5% - 21.8%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Starmie Thunderbolt : 24.9% - 29.3%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Starmie Psychic : 35.2% - 41.6%
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam : 12.3% - 14.5%
[B]Blissey[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. Calm Leftovers Blissey Seismic Toss : 22%
vs. Calm Leftovers Blissey Flamethrower : 5.1% - 6.2%
vs. Calm Leftovers Blissey Ice Beam : 5.1% - 6.2%
[B]Gliscor[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. Impish Leftovers Gliscor Earthquake : 40.1% - 47.6%
vs. Jolly Leftovers Gliscor U-turn : 9.5% - 11.2%
vs. 40 Jolly Leftovers Gliscor +2 Earthquake : 83.3% - 98.2%
[B]Azelf[/B]
252/0/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Naive Focus Sash Azelf Psychic : 27.8% - 32.6%
vs. 4 Naive Focus Sash Azelf Explosion : 109.7% - 129.3%
vs. 252 Naive Focus Sash Azelf Fire Blast : 12.1% - 14.3%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Azelf +2 Psychic : 70.9% - 83.9%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Azelf +2 Flamethrower : 25.1% - 29.5%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Azelf +2 (60bp Grass Special) : 63.4% - 74.9%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Azelf +2 (40bp Grass Special) : 42.3% - 50.2%
[B]Magnezone[/B]
252/0/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Naive Choice Scarf Magnezone Thunderbolt : 29.7% - 35.2%
vs. 252 Naive Choice Scarf Magnezone Flash Cannon : 6.2% - 7.5%
vs. 4 Naive Choice Scarf Magnezone Explosion : 67.6% - 79.7%
[B]Skarmory[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 64 Impish Shed Shell Skarmory Brave Bird : 11.2% - 13.2%
[B]Vaporeon[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. Bold Leftovers Vaporeon Surf : 10.6% - 12.6%
vs. Bold Leftovers Vaporeon (70bp Electric Special) : 10.6% - 12.6%
[B]Suicune[/B]
252/252 Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Suicune +1 Surf : 22.5% - 26.7%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Suicune +1 Hydro Pump : 28.4% - 33.7%
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Suicune +1 (70bp Electric Special) : 22.2% - 26.2%
These are just some examples where this defensive stat distribution can shine and come in on numerous different threats, when tech'd to beat them. Note that many of these spreads are optimized for taking hits and not necessarily OHKOing the threat back. For instance, you would need Ice Beam to beat Mence, but you'd need Payback to beat Latias and, say some burning move to beat Metagross, while needing Fire Blast to beat Lucario. Because of only carrying four moves and having to tech to beat each one, you cannot counter all of them adequately at once - exactly what we're looking for.
Speed Stat Reasoning:
For starters, I feel that the lowest this CAP can possibly be is 91 base speed, because Lucario is the benchmark Pokemon to outspeed. (Since we do not resist CC, and a +2 CC on any of the suggested spreads' defenses spells doom) Beyond that, I feel that a 107 speed is the maximum that we should allow CAP10 to have, specifically so that Infernape and faster threats can always outspeed us. With relative defensive investment (and presuming a low base power Grass Knot), Infernape can never 2HKO CAP10. It is a good landmark of where we should not pass with this CAP's speed.
Between the 91-107 range there are a lot of landmarks to pass or fall short of. For instance, at 101 base speed it becomes possible to outspeed all base 100 +natured Pokemon, which is a substantial chunk of the metagame. This includes many of the Pokemon that CAP10 may need to be EV'd to counter, so it's a good place to work from. Next in line is that at 105 speed, we achieve the ability to outspeed positive-natured base 90's without using our own positive-nature. This may sound like a significant landmark to hit, but considering that Speed will be our largest stat, we stand to always gain the most from our nature if we choose a +Speed nature and simply spend more EVs in the other stats we need. Furthermore, in nearly all cases, we will never have use for a +Atk or +SpA nature, as our offense is potent enough with sufficient EVs to beat landmark threats as necessary. Finally, since a +Def or +SpD nature offers less stats to us over a +Spe nature, we end up with a lower net defense as a result of having to invest 252 EVs into Speed to beat those base 90's.
If you don't believe me, consider my stat distribution with 105 Speed instead compared to my 102 Speed version. An EV spread of 252-0-88-0-0-164 (+Spe/-SpA Nature) with the 102 Speed version has the exact same defensive ability (and final Speed) as an EV spread of 252-0-4-0-0-252 (+Def/-SpA Nature) on the 105 Speed version. Furthermore, the +Spe nature version uses only 500 EVs, whereas the Neutral-Spe nature uses all 508. This means that the +Spe natured version will have an extra 8 EVs to invest elsewhere! That won't make a huge difference in actual play (it might if we forced the BST to stay the same between these two test cases and reduced stats elsewhere for the +3 in speed), but it should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 105 is no important landmark speed to reach.
From those considerations, I decided to shoot for a base speed of 102, akin to Garchomp, guaranteeing that it can outrun base 100's if it wants to and invests in it, but lose out to the incredibly rare Mismagius, Lopunny, and lower EV investment Infernape.
I went through and found ways for this stat spread to beat any of the listed 20 threats above. I won't lie, the abilities chosen for this CAP are going to play a critical role in its ability to reliably come in on many of these threats. No poll-jumping, but things like Intimidate, Levitate, etc. will prove invaluable in helping this CAP along its journey of utility countering whatever is needed for a given instance. It isn't a job for stats alone. However, with the stat distribution I am proposing here, I feel that we will be well on our way to setting up CAP10 to not only achieve its goal of utility countering desired targets as needed by the player, but to do it well and really shake up the OU metagame.
Cheers, I hope you've enjoyed reading this if you've actually gotten this far.
Thank you for doing all that work Rising Dusk. It makes it very easy for me to see what a spread like that accomplishes. I have a question for you since I am pretty useless with stats; in your opinion, with the given offensive stats, will STAB moves like surf/thunder be powerful enough to push CAP into an offensive role despite the fact that the spread favors the defenses a bit? I know it may sound situational but the typing screams rain dance wall breaker/sweeper. It may not be possible, once again I'm not worth anything when it comes to calcs, but I would like to see a spread that discourages this while still being successful. It may be too much to ask that our CAP have this typing and be good at its job and yet incapable of sweeping/wall breaking in rain. Thanks again for the effort you put into your post. It looks like a great place to start.
@fear my shuckle: Rain Dance teams are generally crap in OU play, and adding a Water-type to the metagame isn't going to change that unless we give CAP10 Swift Swim, which I am not going to recommend.
I am rather confused by the very high speeds suggested for some of the other submissions; I don't really see what high speed is designed to accomplish for this Pokemon. Base 80 speed is enough to outspeed neutral base 90s if it so desires, and I see no reason to risk becoming a sweeper by going any faster than that. In fact, since Latias resists both of CAP10's STABs and as such will be one of the hardest Pokemon for CAP10 to deal with, slower speed might actually be better in order to hit Latias with Payback or Avalanche, which wouldn't work as well if CAP10 is faster. As Yllnath noted, high HP is probably preferable to very high defenses to give this thing as much versatility as possible.
Here's a preliminary spread - not sure if I'll be around in a few days to update it but here it is anyway:
HP: 90
Atk: 100
Def: 125
SpA: 65
SpD: 95
Spe: 85
PS: 148 Good
PT: 201 Fantastic
SS: 102 Above Average
ST: 153 Very Good
ODB: -8.82 Moderately Biased towards defense
PSB: 13.74 Biased towards Physical
BSR: 334 Very Good
Here's an explanation of some of my choices. First, the physical attack, in my opinion, lends much more versatility than special attack. With Electric/Water as STAB, he already has the upper hand against Gliscor, Hippowdon, Skarmory, and bulky waters. This covers a lot of physically bulky pokemon already, so going special and being walled by Blissey didn't seem like the best idea. This way, he can hurt Calm Minders such as Jirachi as well. Physical Attack will be nice against Latias, too.
The Defense, as far as I can see, is necessary for surviving Earthquakes from so many physical threats he wants to counter. It's also good for taking U-turn if you want to make this guy a Scizor counter. He can easily be EV'ed to take on Gyarados and Salamence this way, surviving a +1 Earthquake and KOing back with Avalanche / Volt Tackle. It can also check Lucario, killing it off with a Volt Tackle after it uses Close Combat, although the recoil will kill it too. Not bad for something that doesn't resist Fighting, though. The water typing and high defense means it can take Physically based mixed sweepers who run Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, or Ice beam to get through Steels and Grounds quite easily.
The Special Defense is decent, but good enough to make use of his resistances to Fire, Water, and Ice. I felt due to these resistances I could milk his BSR better by putting Base Stats in other places. With these stats he could easily run Special Defense and beat Suicune, Starmie, Heatran (Earth Power doesn't 2HKO without Life Orb), and even specially-based mixed pokemon such as Infernape, with his nice defense helping him against Close Combat even without investment. He can even avoid a 2HKO from Specs Latias (or Salamence) Draco Meteor, but only with Leftovers and a field clear of entry hazards.
Not much to say about the speed... it outspeeds Gyarados, so a Scarf set is possible to keep it at bay even after a Dragon Dance.
Basically, the high Defense makes up for the Ground weak, while the Special Defense is better than it looks due to the great resists. The HP is good, but not absurd, so you have to choose where he's going to be bulky. He'll always be decent on the Physical side though, but again, he doesn't have a lot of physical resists so he needs it. With this typing and stat spread, he can stop a wide variety of Physical, Special, and Physically or Specially based mixed sweepers, while having a decent attack stat to work with.
I thought CAP 10 was supposed to be able to counter everything (not all at once mind.) If it were given U-turn or X-scissor or something, it would definitely threaten Celebi.
HP: 110
Attack:85
Defense:85
Special Attack:85
Special Defense:85
Speed:105
TOTAL: 555
Horizontal: 110/85/85/85/85/105
I dislike the idea of base 600. I feel it's a tad too powerful so I nerfed mine to Arcanine-level.
Why such an emphases on HP?
With a higher than average HP stat, this pokemon will be able to take blows from both sides of the spectrum but not well enough to be called bulky without proper EV placement into the defensive stats. With modest defensive stats of 85, this pokemon must rely on Evs to round out it’s defensive coverage. It’s hp is not high enough to have “Blissey syndrome”. In other words, this pokemon actually benefits from putting Evs into HP. Blissey and other pokemon with massive hp Stats can simply put their evs into their defenses and tank very well. This pokemon will not be able to do that. 252/252 HP/Def for example will make this pokemon a superb physical tank, but not a very powerful attacker and only a moderate special attack taker. This is only 1 of any examples I will share as to how this spread is perfect for what we are aiming for.
Why such an emphasis on Speed?
105 is a magical number. 105 out speeds the base 100 pokemon. Specifically Salamence and Gyarados. If people want this pokemon to be able to counter these two particular threats at all, they must out speed them. With 105 they outspeed neutral S&G (As I will refer to them hence forth). With a +Speed nature, they outspeed them all the time with 252 evs. This is so specific because, If someone chooses to counter S&G specifically, then they must sacrifice a +offensive or +defensive nature in order to do it. This number is also magical due to it outspeeding DDmence and Dddos by the use of a Scarf. This is another way this pokemon can be tailored to specifically counter these two beasts. Once again going with our over all theme of only being able to counter specific threats. This pokemon would quite literally ‘have to have’ a scarf in order to beat the evils of Dragon Dance. (As well as rain dance kingdra). Flygon is another nuisance that this CAP can outspeed. All three of these pokemon have to be outsped in order to counter them. If the CAP is slower, then the CAP will fall to Earthquake or powerful Dragon STAB. Thus, this forces the user into a dilemma, ‘Do I outspeed and effectively KO these 3 giant threats, or do I do a 252/252 atk/Sp.atk spread for better wall-breaking ability?’
This leads to many different EV spreads being used to do different things:
252/252 hp/defensive makes this pokemon bulkier to that specific attack type, either physical or special but weaker in the other.
252/252 in both defenses allows this pokemon to take mix sweepers fairly well but it‘s recovery move (If any. Leftovers, Rest and Wish pass) won‘t be as useful due to having lower hp.
252/252 Offensive/Speed allows this CAP to counter other offensive threats very effectively and have a chance at sweeping.
252/252 both offenses allow this cap to become an effective mix sweeper but unable to handle faster sweepers
Thus, I can conclude that with this spread, this CAP will be able to do literally everything (If given the right moves to choose from) but not all at once. I didn’t want this CAP to be 100 across the board, as that would be very cheesy and almost too powerful given the idea we are trying to achieve. Besides, 101 base speed is the bar minimum we're going to need.
I haven't been here long enough to learn and fully understand the formulas concering certain things (Such as the damage calc and the normalization of sweepiness/tankiness) thus, I will not pretend like I know what i'm talking about on the matter. Tweaks can and will be made if somebody can show that a higher X stat would be more beneficial. Formulas are nice too.
I realized this is a toned down version of Raikaria's and Rising_Dusk. I like mine a tad more due to my excessive worrying that this pokemon would be a tad too powerful with higher base stats. But if people feel that his would be more effective (mathematically they would, but balance wise?) then I will back their's 100%.
I also don't like 111 speed due to it always outspeeding the base 100's which means they are not so much of a fight anymore and this pokemon would no longer need to be tailored to fight off gyarados or Salamence at all. It would simply use it's STAB'd Tbolt/Ice move (Or HP Ice) no matter what it's original intend was. Thus I support my 105 base speed stat more strongly than the rest of my spread.
Physical Sweepiness: 132, Rank 5: Good
Physical Tankiness: 174, Rank 6: Very Good
Special Sweepiness: 135, Rank 5: Good
Special Tankiness: 171, Rank 6: Very Good
Offense/Defense Balance: -6.59, Moderately biased towards Defense
Physical/Special Balance: 0.05, Slightly biased towards Physical
Overall Stat Rating: 339, Rank 6: Very Good
Base Stat Total: 600
Overview: This is a more tankish approach to the concept, which I think is wise, especially considering how much of a requirement customization is in terms of the concept. The idea here is balance; If your identified countee hits from one side of the spectrum, you can just as viably tank from that side without forfeiting superior stats elsewhere. Likewise, if your countee is particularly vulnerable on one side of the spectrum, you have just as much power behind your attacks either way.
Defenses (100/100/100): This is OU's gold standard for customizable defenses. Jirachi and Celebi, two of OU's most overall versatile Pokemon, abuse these defenses to no end for a variety of results and are top defensive threats as a result. It's a naturally bulky spread, so if you're planning on countering things that don't hit so hard, you can invest in your great attacking stats. If your countee does hit particularly hard, you have tons of room to invest and survive almost any hit.
Offenses (120/120/60): This is perhaps the opposite route everyone else has been taking in terms of Speed: High Attack and Special Attack in exchange for low Speed. With no investment, both attacking stats sit at 276, which is plenty enough to pose an immediate offensive threat to top OU offensive Pokemon. With investment, they are even deadlier and can keep your opponent guessing from which angle they'll be hit.
I'm going to guess that the most controversial aspect of this spread will be the Speed stat, so I'll go in depth here as to why I've made the decision to go slow:
I am not of the mindset that this CAP needs to be at all fast. When you think of counters, that is, things that are more or less designed for countering, in the current metagame, a few spring to mind right away: Swampert, Rotom-H, Tyranitar, Vaporeon. None of these are blindingly fast, yet are still extremely effective. A fast counter is one that sacrifices utility in exchange for a stat that becomes more and more necessary to invest in the higher you go. Speed is so over-represented in this metagame that the only Pokemon who dare not invest in it in the 90+ range, Jirachi and Celebi (or Tentacruel, but whatever), are the ones with the kind of defenses you see in this spread and are in a particular Speed tier enough to get at best a speed tie with the likes of Salamence. Anything over base 100 Speed is something the metagame requires you to invest in. And with a focus on Speed for countering certain threats, you are only customizing the rest of the Pokemon enough to defeat those threats who reside in a higher tier than you, which is few, especially as you push higher and higher above that 100 mark.
tl;dr, if you can outspeed Salamence, you will outspeed Salamence (every time), and that about halves your EVs that you were going to originally use to customize your CAP. It's also quite boring to have all your "countering" of 90% of OU done with high speed and a coverage move.
Also, to fit within the confines of Beej's limits, the high-Speed spreads are paring down their attacking stats, which, in turn, will absolutely require EV investment in order to be any kind of counter, which dries up the rest of the EVs you didn't put in Speed (unless your utility countering has absolutely nothing to do with attacking). I agree that this CAP doesn't need to threaten a OHKO in order to counter something, but a SE unSTAB attack from a <90 base stat with no investment is still not going to be very frightening unless it's 4x effective. So, you're once again limiting your stat customization options to a) max Spe / max Atk or b) max Spe / max SpA, which is pretty unfortunate, given the broad scope of options this CAP is meant to have and the original consensus from the concept thread for this to be a primarily defensive Pokemon.
60 Speed is not abysmally slow. With these STABs, it's dangerous to put this CAP in a position of outrunning most of the metagame while still fulfilling the concept. And with the defenses of this spread along with the defensive utility of this typing, stat and EV investment elsewhere will be much more useful. Tyranitar and Magnezone do fairly well with a Scarf, and this CAP isn't designed to revenge kill, so I don't need to hear that argument. I think 60 Speed is good enough to balance the enormous stats elsewhere in this spread.
---------------------
They way I envision this CAP being customized is funnel-like, starting at stats (most vague) and ending at moves and item (most specific), so one will start at stats, establish to what degree one wants to take hits in general or from specific targets, and EV appropriately. Then one will move on to one of two abilities that will aid in the countering of more specific groups of threats within the initial stat group. Finally, select moves and items will allow for the direct countering of individual or very similar opponents. So, in the stat spread area, I can't expect this CAP to be accomplishing its utility countering goals 100%, which is why I have left things more or less open-ended.
With that being said, it's tough to envision what kind of sets this thing will run at this point, but I'll offer 2 and show their offensive and defensive capabilities here.
Set 1: Physically Defensive
Nature: Bold / Impish / Relaxed
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Stats: 404 HP / 276 (249) Atk / 328 Def / 276 (249) SpA / 236 SpD / 156 (140) Spe
Strengths: Bulk: These defenses are stellar, but are not as "naturally" bulky as the high HP spreads, so investment is necessary to tank the harder hitters of OU. Power: Big Atk and SpA allow you to pose an immediate offensive threat to your countees, who may not fear even SE attacks otherwise, especially bulky offensive types like Latias. Freedom: Perfectly balanced stats on both ends of the attacking and defending spectrums offer complete freedom for customizing EVs for particular groups of threats. For weaker threats or for switching in on Pokemon you can generally wall completely and nailing the switch-in, you can go 252 HP/252 Atk/SpA and hit like a truck. For netting surprise kills on powerful threats like Lucario and Salamence, you can throw on a Choice Scarf and easily OHKO. That's not unheard of. Balance: The low speed means this CAP will be taking more hits than it'll be dishing out, so you are encouraged to invest in them or else risk being KO'd before you get a chance to do anything. Coupled with CAP's ubiquitous Ground weakness, this justifies the higher stats elsewhere and assures that this spread won't make it too good for OU.
Weaknesses: Speed: The arguments for a high Speed stat have been made continuously: some threats (Lucario, Salamence, etc.) simply can't be tanked with neutral typing. While I believe abilities and movepool discussions are the place to get into discussing how to counter individual threats, I understand the concern. However, the calcs I have provided show that this CAP already has a good start in tanking both physical and special hits with its great defenses, so the issue isn't as dire as some may think. Too Powerful?: I say of course not, and this is because of the low Speed and the concept's nature of investing EVs defensively. As I said, this CAP will be taking more hits than it will be giving, so there is a pretty big risk involved with putting too much effort into beefing up the attacking stats.
------------------------------- Conclusion: Ooh this thing is a beast. My only fears here are that the 600 BST will throw off people who think BST is any measure of the quality of a Pokemon's stats and that the high HP / high Spe mindset has been completely set in stone. I'll post something here that I think is important when considering stat spreads:
Originally Posted by Fat Reachzero It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon
I'm not presuming that a defensive Pokemon needs to be slow or that it can't be fast. I'm just saying that, at this point, we should be still be focusing on versatility and not on countering specific threats like Salamence and Lucario. As I said before, we should be getting more specific over time, but at this point, we aren't at "how do we beat Salamence" yet.
But what this spread accomplishes is just that: versatility. My arguments and calculations should show this extensively, so take them as you will, and thank you for reading my submission.
I'm not going to post a whole entire stat spread, but I am of the opinion that CAP 10 needs a high base HP stat; I think that base 110 seems appropriate. If this is truly designed to be a utility counter, then it needs to be able to switch in on a large plethora of attacks, and with a high HP stat (and it should also have solid defenses imo) it could easily switch in on the Pokemon that it is attempting to counter.
Sorry for not being very detailed but I'm kinda running low on time :x
I am rather confused by the very high speeds suggested for some of the other submissions; I don't really see what high speed is designed to accomplish for this Pokemon.
I agree in every way and this spread will do damn fine. There are a few tweaks personally I would make just to even out some of my worries but this is a great spread for what we need. Hits hard enough without too much investment while limiting how hard it can hit to prevent it from being more than a counter. Just defensive enough to take down one threat and leave itself open to others without proper investment. Not fast enough to outrun quick threats like base 100's but uses a versatile and useful Speed to outrun much of the confusing lower speed tiers. This is what more of the spreads should look like.
This is my final stat spread submission. I have edited it to line up with the bases chosen by the TL.
HP: 130
Atk: 75
Def: 70
SpA: 80
SpD: 75
Spe: 110
BST: 540 (Decent while not being way overdone. I personally don't want a 600 BST CAP10)
PS: Rank 5 Good
PT: Rank 6 Very Good
SS: Rank 5 Good
ST: Rank 6 Very Good
Overall rating: Rank 6 Very Good
Slightly biased towards defense
Slightly biased towards special
Higher Hp forces customization of defenses. Mediocre attacking stats forces EV input and therefore customization. With this stat spread CAP10 will never be sweeping but it will be able to be molded to counter any specific threat.
The stat spread is a bit hard to make without knowing what abilities we'll have. But assuming no ability for now, let's look at countering the hardest hitters in OU. I'm going to assume a primarily specially attacking Pokemon, as both STABs have mediocre physical attacks. I'm also going to try a spread with lower speed.
Scizor--HP Fire and 4x Bullet Punch resist make you a huge threat to Scizor. +2 Bug Bite not OHKOing will be the benchmark here, which requires 95/95. This means you take ~40% from CBScizor's U-turn.
Tyranitar--Scarf and CBTar are the most problematic, as both carry EQ and both must be OHKO'd should you switch in on it. The best move to OHKO Ttar is Superpower/Close Combat. It takes it takes 239 attack to OHKO 160HP CBtar after SR. This suggests at least 60 base attack is preferrable. Surviving 2 EQs from Scarftar requires 115/115 (95/95 with Shuca), but surviving 1 EQ from CBtar requires just 90/90.
Salamence--It takes Cresselia-level defenses to take DM followed by Outrage from Mixmence. I'm serious about that--Cressy's left with 4% if Mence draws max damage twice. Since we'd actually get hit with DM followed by EQ, which is even more powerful, clearly stats alone aren't going to cut it. Trace, however, allows Mence to be given a -1 to attack. 100/100/100 suffices in this case.
Heatran--90/90 avoids Scarftran's 2HKO and LOtran's OHKO. In return, an 85 base EP or 72 base EQ OHKOs. LOtran requires CaP10 to be faster that Tran, so 77 base speed appears to be a minimum.
Latias--Specs Latias is problematic. If you can survive the second DM, you can easily recover back your health. However, it takes enormous sdef to do so. 110/110 for Timid, 120/120 for Modest. However, it's complete pursuit bait if the second DM KOs, and it's taking a risk of pursuit by doing the second DM regardless. Other Latias variants lack the raw power of Specs, and can be beaten down with Paybacks.
Gyarados--EQ is its only threat. Swapping into DD requires 100/100 to survive the Adamant +1 EQ. Swapping directly into EQ is more problematic. Trace removes these problems, 90/90 is enough to switch directly into EQ.
Metagross--And here we have the nastiest one. CBGross must be treated like CBtar, but there's no delightful 4x weakness to threaten it out with. Either Shuca+Filter is needed to survive 2 Quakes, or you're going to need to hit it with a boosted Fire attack. Specs Fire Blast off 81 base is enough to OHKO, so it can be a guaranteed counter, but try not to switch in on quake otherwise. You can survive 2 Quakes from Agiligross with either Shuca or Filter.
Lucario--+2 Adamant CC is, of course, the biggest thing here. We just need to avoid the OHKO. 105/105 does a pretty good job of it.
Mamoswine--We'll need to be faster, as there's no way we'll survive 2 Quakes. The previous physical defense figures will avoid the OHKO switching into Quake. However, you'll need to be fast enough to blow it away before it gets the second one off.
So, I would say 105/105/105 (or equivalent) defenses, 85 base satk, 72 base atk, and enough speed to outrun Mamoswine. So, putting these all together, I've come up with...
130/72/90/88/90/85
I'll run some calcs later
EDIT: Completely reworked spread. See my later post for it.
Perfect Balance
The main point to consider is that CAP10 must be customizable to answer any threat. Giving it exactly balanced stats allows it to be changed in accordance with whatever you want. The same goes for offence; your target might be specially weak, but another target might be physically weak. I see the customizability for CAP10 like a stem cell. It can be changed into anything, yet can only do certain things at once. This is where the balance comes in; you can only invest in either Physical or Special bulk/offense, not both. It gives CAP10 the perfect base from which people can work off.
Straight 100
Perfect base 100 defensive stats is equal to Celebi, Jirachi and the lesser seen Shaymin*. They often invest in physical bulk, and they can often make use of that in a variety of ways. CAP10 may have a vastly different typing, but the fact remains that it will still be as bulky as those mentioned above. The ability to conjure up 101HP substitutes as well as take some attacks will allow it to come into just about any threat you require and then retaliate in one way or another.
Simple Power
The thing I worried most about with my stat spread was simply the fact that it would be too powerful mixed with a combination of good speed and good movepool, thus leading to it becoming a sweeper rather than a defensive Pokémon. 75 I think is enough to allow it to offensively combat some of the major threats existing in OU simply with the right move.
Enough Speed?
With all the 110+ Speed spreads going around, I simply ask: Why? Is it necessary to outspeed everything you do? I think for things that can boost speed, commonly run a Scarf, or are simply naturally fast, surviving their attacks takes priority over actually outspeeding them. Some things that lie a bit lower down you could outspeed, forcing them into a weaker priority move** due to a possible speed tie, or just simply kill them off. The ability to not go overboard, yet still provide some reliability would be a good thing. After all, you won't be outspeeding +1 Mence withou priority, so you should focus on surviving its +1 Outrage and somehow retaliating. Again, balance comes in as you need to know what is worth focusing to outspeed and what isn't.
I may add more reasoning and perhaps even damage calcs later.
footnotes
*that may be because the top special sweeper is heatran, whose STAB move incinerates (pun intended) all three. CAP10 however, resists heatran's stab move and only has to be wary of earth power. but 95 speed makes it faster than any set not running scarf, and if it's scarfed, it's just easy prediction.
**this would combine to do many things; give you more longevity to kill them or you could even predict and switch to a better counter. this would make CAP10 a bait, however, which isn't what we want.
I had messed around with spreads and i got this, only thing is he is a little low on the special defense i might mix it up. this has got decent hp, good mixed offenses to counter either side the pokemon is weaker too. Also with 112 speed it can outspeed a ton of common threats, the only thing semi-lacking is his defenses, but with his great typing he should be able to switch into most things he's supposed, outspeed them and potentially OHKO. With this spread wishing passing him in would be an excellent idea.
Basically, we need somthing with more HP than it does in its defences so it can select whether it would rather be more Defensively bulky or Special Defensively bulky depending on which pokemon you wish to counter. It has a balanced Attack/Special Attack and Defence/Special Defence so you can decide what you would rather have and the opponent would not know straight off if it should give a heavy Physical or Special blow. Its stats are pretty high, but this must be the case for a pokemon such as unique as this one. The only thing I am not all so sure about is speed. I think it may be too high for what it needs, which is not really much, so that is one thing that is not all needed so much.
101 HP is there to create 101 HP Substitutes to counter Blissey more easily. For attack and special attack, I looked at benchmarks that CAP 10 could hit with a Life Orb.
Here are some benchmarks for Attack:
What will OHKO Standard Skarmory with Thunderbolt? 222 attack
What will 2HKO bulky Scizor with Volt Tackle? 260 attack
What will OHKO Vaporeon with Volt Tackle? 269 will 2HKO
What will OHKO offensive Suicune with Volt Tackle? 270 attack
What will OHKO lead Azelf with Volt Tackle? 309 attack
What will OHKO Rapid Spinner Starmie with Volt Tackle? 321 attack
What will 2HKO DDTar Tyranitar with Waterfall? 327 attack
What will 2HKO Torment Heatran with Waterfall? 356 attack
What will OHKO Gliscor with Ice Beam/Ice Punch? 359 attack with Ice Punch
What will OHKO Standard Attack Gengar with Volt Tackle? 365 with Volt Tackle
What will 2HKO lead Metagross with Volt Tackle? 379 attack will do 45.6-58.3%
What will 2HKO a Bulky Rotom form with Waterfall? 383 attack does 40.4 to 48.4% attack
What will 2HKO Jirachi with Volt Tackle? to the SubCM sweeper, 379 attack would do 51.2% to 60.4%
365 with Adamant Nature sounds reasonable. That is a base attack of around 121.
Here are some benchmarks for special attack:
What will OHKO DD Mence with Ice Beam? 223 Special Attack
What will OHKO Scarf Flygon with HP Ice? 227 Special Attack
What will OHKO Starmie with Thunderbolt? 248 Special Attack
What will OHKO Standard Jolly Tank Gliscor with HP Ice? 250 Special Attack
What will OHKO Scarf Heatran with Surf? 272 Special Attack
What will 2HKO Metagross with HP Fire? 290 Special Attack with Occa Berry
What will OHKO Swampert with HP Grass? 334 Special Attack
What will OHKO Swords Dance Scizor with HP Fire? 335 Special Attack
What will 2HKO Latias with Ice Beam? 337 Special attack
What will OHKO Wish Vaporeon with Thunderbolt? 383 Special Attack
With a massive investment into attack, I would prefer Special Attack to be weaker. With +1 and a Life Orb, 255 Special Attack will OHKO Wish Vaporeon.
With 252 Special Attack EVs and a boosting nature, a base 90 pokemon can OHKO Vaporeon with +2 special attack with a Nasty Plot.
Base 103 speed outspeeds Salamence and Garchomp if it comes back to OU.
I wanted the BST to add up to 600, so I took the remaining base points and had 185 left. For defenses, I went for a more physical bias since the metagame lacks a strong physical electric pokemon from both sides of the spectrum. I might revise this with Earthquake calcs later but 101 HP and 95 Defense should provide some flexibility.
I'll post this now and add to it as I have time in the next few days.
================================================== Base Stats - CAP 10 ==================================================
A base HP of 101, without IVs or EVs, creates sustitutes with 78 hit points at level 100. This means that you're short 23 hit points, which equates an HP IV of 23, 92 HP EV, or a mixture of both.
Actually, to not have to worry about a Sub-breaking Level 100 Seismic Toss at all, a Pokemon needs a base HP of at least 148. You weren't even close, sorry.
A lot of Blissey don't run Seismic Toss because of the ubiquitous Rotom-A. Also, 101 HP does create 101 subs, with slightly less than max EVs. It's not that great of a number to shoot for.
This thread is now open again. However, submissions are no longer restriction-free now. Any and all submissions must have:
Physical Tankiness (PT) - Very Good
Physical Sweepiness (PS) - Good
Special Tankiness (ST) - Very Good
Special Sweepiness (SS) - Good
These ranges are supposed to be pretty wide, and you can come up with surprisingly different stat distributions while adhering to these same restrictions. You may also alter your initial spreads so that they are within these values.
I expect to see diversity, and I will be paying a lot of attention to the individual spreads in this thread. All of the rules in the OP apply. Happy submitting!
