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CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 1

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by jas61292, Mar 10, 2014.

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  1. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Welcome everyone to the first big discussion of CAP 18. It is here were we will solidify the direction that this project will take. In out last thread, we voted to go with the following concept:

    Guidelines:
    1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
    2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

    Our topic leader, DetroitLolcat, will start off this thread with some opening thoughts. Make sure to pay attention to what he says, as it will be a guide for what we should be discussing. The goal here is to have everyone on the same page coming out of this discussion, so making sure we are following the guidance of our TL is important. There should be plenty to discuss here, so just follow DetroitLolcat's lead, and I'm sure we will have a great concept assessment
  2. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Okay, so our winning concept is Dummy007's Major Third. Congrats, Dummy007!

    Our first task in Concept Assessment is to decide the two Pokemon to form the offensive or defensive core with CAP 18. Our second task in Concept Assessment is to identify why those Pokemon are not OU stalwarts, why they need a third Pokemon to form a core together, and how that third Pokemon will specifically complement the two Pokemon we selected. Therefore, we will have two Concept Assessment threads: one to select the Pokemon and one to analyze the Pokemon.

    The Concept states that we should be choosing lesser-used OU Pokemon, but also leaves room for BL or UU Pokemon. Since OU placement is currently based on 1760 usage stats and not absolute Pokemon Showdown usage, we will be using the 1760 stats in order to determine what's "lesser-used OU". Furthermore, the two Pokemon we select may or may not be part of a popular core right now; they could have common weaknesses that prevent them from checking enough Pokemon defensively, they could not have the offensive coverage to KO enough Pokemon together, or they might not have the right support moves to form a team supporting core.

    When posting about which Pokemon you would like to see in our core, it is infinitely more helpful to suggest two Pokemon at a time. What I'm looking for in a good post is:

    1. Why are these two Pokemon are viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?
    2. Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?
    3. Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon.

    When looking for Pokemon to build our core around, try looking at popular types of two-Pokemon and three-Pokemon cores from past metagames. In Gen V RU, Tangrowth+Slowking was an amazing core because one Pokemon checked numerous Physical attackers, one checked numerous Special attackers, and they didn't need to outsource their recovery thanks to Regenerator. CeleTran was very common in Gen IV OU because Celebi could take Water and Ground attacks without problem and Heatran's Fire immunity and 4x Bug resistance made it easy to take attacks aimed at Celebi. There are plenty of cores from current and past metagames not mentioned above: Double Dragon, SkarmBliss, 4Drag2Mag, etc. We could look at an OU core that already works and make it better, or we could try to create a core of our own. As the thread moves on, I'll start to narrow down what we're looking at. At the end of the thread, I'll post the two Pokemon we're selecting and we can move on to Concept Assessment 2. Remember, this thread will not have a poll at the end.

    This concept is going to lead to many comparisons to CAP11 (Voodoom) because it's essentially a more ambitious version of Perfect Mate. I recommend, but do not require, following the format Fuzznip posted in CAP 11's Concept Assessment to begin your argument.

    So go forth! Let's see some cool core ideas!

    I totally didn't sleep through the end of the Concept Poll.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  3. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    Congrats Dummy007! This was my favorite concept other than mine and I'm really looking forward to it.

    So as far as "lesser used" goes, I think there's really four categories of stuff we could look at:

    -Stuff that was good in BW but got worse in XY (Celebi, Jirachi, Hydreigon)
    -Stuff that was bad in BW and improved in XY, but not a whole lot (Zapdos Suicune, Kingdra),
    -Stuff that was introduced in XY but was mediocre (Trevenant, Chesnaught)
    -Special mention to meh mega evolutions (Ampharos, Manectric, Blastoise)

    I'm interested in a core of Blastoise-Mega + either Celebi or Trevenant, because I think Mega Blastoise has a lot of potential it's not living up to right now, and the other two are very nice pokemon that synergize well with Blastoise but have unfortunate weaknesses (looking at you, Aegislash and Bisharp nvm Blastoise handles that) that a third pokemon could help alleviate. I'm probably going to give this some more thought and post a more in-depth version later.

    EDIT: On further thought, this core is weak to way too many common threats to be made useful by a third member. I'm afraid Blastoise's lack of recovery may be unsalvagable.

    I would be very interested if someone came up with a core using Mega Ampharos, I wanted to but couldn't find a good partner.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  4. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
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    So my initial thoughts for teammates to build around are Mega Manectric and Manaphy.

    1. Why are these two Pokemon viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?

    Mega Manectric suffers from competing for a Mega slot with many other good Megas. Manectric is by no means bad. It has an insane speed tier, Intimidate, and decent power, but it is hard to use it when you can use Thundurus to fill your electric type needs, while also using Mega Pinsir/Venu/Char/etc. Manaphy on the other hand really should see more usage. It's a deadly set-up sweeper that can even pick and choose its checks/counters based on what coverage it runs. I think it suffers somewhat from "competition" from Keldeo, though in reality they play different roles.

    2. Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?

    Mega Manectric and Manaphy help each other out significantly. Because Manectric can cover the Water-types that Manaphy otherwise needs Energy Ball to beat, it frees up Manaphy to run Psychic to beat Mega Venusaur, who otherwise beats Mega Manectric. There are definitely some good benefits to running these two things together already. One downside is a lack of defensive type synergy. It's not easy to pivot from one to the other, aside from maybe using Manectric's Volt Switch. Also, any time you use two special attackers together in an offensive core you run into problems. First, they struggle somewhat with Chansey/Blissey and they struggle a lot with Clefable, due to Unaware blocking Manaphy. A third Pokemon could solve this perhaps by being a set-up sweeper with Mold Breaker so that Clefable can't ruin its day, and it can also potentially boost its way through Chansey and Blissey. But you could also do this by being a Steel or Poison that can therefore threaten Clefable with STAB and avoid Toxic from Chansey/Blissey. I'm sure there are plenty of other routes to take to support these two as well, since they really only struggle with a few things.

    3. Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon.

    A Pokemon that is good at threatening Chansey/Blissey/Clefable will undoubtedly aid Manaphy more than almost anything else, as it's the only thing in OU that becomes so instantly threatening on the special side with one Tail Glow. On the other hand, Mega Manectric becomes a much more dangerous pivot and sweeper in its own right once Chansey and Blissey are removed, since the opponent rarely has too many good switchins for it, and it outspeeds roughly everything.
    assassinfred, M-WHALE, Todd and 3 others like this.
  5. FierceDeity1

    FierceDeity1

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    Here's the best I got. This is my first CAP submission, so I would love some feedback.

    Pokemon: Sylveon and Hydreigon

    Why: Seeing as this is the first cap of a new generation, I thought we could try to use this concept to explore other new things GameFreak gave us, namely the brand new Fairy type. Without too many OU viable Fairies, wehhaven't seen all that it is capable of. Lets take a look at the first Fairy we saw, Sylveon, and build of of that. I paired Sylveon with Hydreigon because I noticed they both have similar roles (special tank/sweeper) but radically different types. These types can somewhat cover each other, with Fairy stopping Fighting, Bug, and Dragon moves Hydreigon is weak to. However, Dark/Dragon ddoesn't help Fairy all that much, because it is neutral to Poison and some offensive Steels (Dark helps with Aegislash). The main problems I can see with this pairing is strong Ground and Ice coverage (and Mamoswine) as well as a lot ofother strong Neutral hits.

    What we can do: To make a strong, tanky core of these I would add a Pokemon that holds plenty of key resistances to common move types in OU (like Flying, Fire, Ice, etc.) and also a good offensive presence. A physical preference may be more beneficial to the core, as the other two members are Special oriented. Coverage will also be important to beat anything that could wall the other two (maybe Blissey? Not too sure on this).

    In conclusion, a core of strong tanks in Sylveon, Hydreigon, and another may just be enough to make a big impact on the metagame, and allow us to further our understanding of the Fairy type and how to support it and how it can support in return.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
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  6. Bramblestein

    Bramblestein

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    Pokemon: Mega Ampharos and Bronzong

    Why: Ampharos was one of the few Pokemon blessed with a Mega Evolution this generation, which turned into a decently bulky offensive powerhouse. However, the advent of fairies, lack of reliable recovery, competition for a slot as a Mega Evolution, and lack of speed have held it down a bit. Bronzong is also held back by a low speed stat and lack of reliable recovery that would otherwise make it a premier OU wall, however, it does have access to some decent support moves in the form of Stealth Rock, Dual Screens, Toxic, Hypnosis and Trick Room, plus it resists or is immune to all of Mega Ampharos' weaknesses. These two have a ton of potential together, and could really benefit from a strong third Pokemon that could either patch up their speed problems, provide longevity through wish passing, and/or work as a bulky physical pivot to compliment Mega Ampharos all while letting Bronzong sponge any attacks you don't want the other two to take.
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  7. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank

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    When looking at 2-pokemon cores, I try to classify them in three ways: Offense / Offense, Offense / Defense, and Defense / Defense.

    An Offense / Offense core works by breaking down similar counters in hopes of one of the core sweeping in the end. This core breaks down against either a very sturdy wall (think of two special attackers unable to 2HKO Chansey while Chansey toxic-stalls them out) or something faster that can sweep both offensive partners gets a free switch in.

    A Defense / Defense core tries to wall as many attacks as possible while trying to heal itself back to full health. Skarmbliss is still the gold standard since Skarmory can wall physical attackers while supplying hazards, while Chansey can take all special attacks and heal Skarmory of status. This core breaks down either when the opponent has something capable of OHKOing both partners (Infernape) or something capable of stopping Skarmbliss from healing itself (Taunt Gliscor, Taunt Mew, Volt Turn cores work too).

    An Offense / Defense core is when an offensive pokemon has a "safety blanket" for switching purposes, and ideally can provide a free switch for the offensive partner through U-Turn or Volt Switch. I have never used this core myself, but I have seen a core of Mega-Pinsir / Rotom-Wash tear teams apart because Rotom-Wash can handle most of Mega-Pinsir's checks while providing opportunities to get Mega-Pinsir back in to do most of the damage to the opponent's team. These cores are hard to find since there are only a handful of pivots in the OU meta (Rotom-Wash, Landorus-T, Scizor being the most common.)

    Ideally, CAP18 should try to complement an Offense-Defense core since building a balanced core might lead to better discussions in later steps.
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  8. Ignus

    Ignus

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    For me, the biggest worry for this concept is picking two Pokemon that despite their great synergy in a core with the major third, they will be outclassed personally by other Pokemon and therefore create a secondary core with the CAP. A good example would be building a core around Swampert. Swampert is by no means a terrible pokemon, and can, with the right support, check or counter a variety of physical threats including talonflame, landorus-t, and tyranitar. It's relatively high attack and access to support moves such as stealth rock and roar makes it a strong pokemon in the metagame.
    However, Swampert is outclassed in almost every way by Rotom-W. It's access to W-o-W and better typing while still countering many if not all threats Swampert does make it not only better, but one of the top used Pokemon in OU. As such, It would be a mistake to choose a Pokemon such as Swampert, who has obviously better alternatives within the metagame.

    Other good examples include Celebii, who is completely overshadowed by Mega-Venusaur; one of the best pivots in the game as of late; Mega Houndoom, who is completely overshadowed by Mega-Zard-Y; and Bronzong, who is basically a bad Klefki with stealth rock.

    As such, any 'Mon that has obviously better alternatives should be avoided.

    On a similar note, Only one Mega-Evo is allowed per team. When you pick a Mega-Evolution for your team, you are saying you want that Pokemon over every other Mega. This is an extremely important part of teambuilding, especially when Pokemon like Mega-Pinsir, Heracross, Charizard (both are op), and Venusaur exist. Because of this, I would discourage the choice of a Mega-mon as part of our core.

    Instead, I feel the concept will go in a much stronger direction if we chose to find pokemon in OU who are both underutilized and have successfully carved a niche in the metagame. And while I don't have a suggestion for what such Pokemon would be yet, I feel the first step of this Concept Assessment should be Identifying such Pokemon.

    So, Yeah.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  9. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    I think bugmaniacbob's comments on this concept should be required reading for anyone who wants to participate in this stage, as he is a CAP veteran who was there for Perfect Mate and saw where it succeeded and failed. He said them in a smogcast but I've transcribed them for convenience:

    This is food for thought for everyone, I hope. It's impossible to make something work in OU by throwing it in a core when it's pretty shit on its own. It's fun to think we could bring Mega Houndoom and Heliolisk up to OU status by pairing them with a third pokemon that works perfectly with it, but we can't. This is the major lesson we learned with Voodoom and Togekiss and I'd rather not see it repeated—try to pair our Pokemon with Bronzong and it ends up going with Aegislash instead. We better make sure we pick Pokemon that actually already work in OU for this concept. They can—should—work better once they're done. But if they don't work at least somewhat to start, they never will. That isn't to say we need to pick Aegislash and Mega Pinsir, because there are a lot of things in OU that work with low usage thanks to it being a new generation: see Chesnaught. But they better work.
    Rafikichu, Magolor, T-Bolt and 11 others like this.
  10. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle

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    I'd like to suggest Chesnaught and Mega-Charizard-X in a defensive core with CAP1.

    ***As many of you may have noticed, Charizard is the 2nd most used Pokemon in OU right now (and 6th by 1760 stats). I'd just like to let it be known that this core is uses bulky status spreader Mega Charizard X. Even though the concept says lower OU pokemon, this is justified because Impish Nature on Charizard is extremely rare. If bulky status spreader Mega Charizard X were its own pokemon, it would not even qualify for OU based on its usage stats.***

    [​IMG]
    Chesnaught:
    Grass/Fighting
    Overgrow/Bulletproof
    88 HP / 107 Atk / 122 Def / 74 SpA / 75 SpD / 64 Spe
    Notable Moves: Synthesis/Spiky Shield/Leech Seed/Spikes/Roar/Hammer Arm
    Resistances: Ground/Rock/Water/Grass/Electric/Dark

    What's so special about Chesnaught?
    For the most part, as a grass-type defensive mon, Chesnaught is usually ignored because Mega-Venusaur exists. Chesnaught also has a fairly poor defensive typing as a defensive pokemon. However, chesnaught has an amazing unique niche no other pokemon has access to: Bullet Proof. Bullet proof is an interesting ability in that it makes the pokemon immune to a lot of moves (see below). Not only does Chesnaught have Bullet Proof, it also has its signature move, Spiky Shield. Spiky Shield can cause a lot of damage in conjunction with Leech Seed and a burn Caused by Mega-Charizard-X.

    Moves affected by Bulletproof (open)


    [​IMG]
    Mega Charizard X:
    Fire/Dragon

    Tough Claws
    78 HP / 130 Atk / 111 Def / 130 SpA / 85 SpD / 100 Spe
    Notable Moves: Roost/Will-O-Wisp/Dragon Tail/Substitute/Earthquake
    Resistances: Bug/Steel/Fire/Grass/Electric

    What's so special about a bulky, status spreading Mega Charizard X?
    Mega-Charizard-Y is generally preffered over Mega-Charizard-X, but X has viability as well when used as a bulky status spreader. It has access Roost, W-o-W, and Dragon Tail, which makes spreading burns quite simple (which is really nice for defensive purposes as burn chips away at the opponent's health and halves their attack stat). Mega Charizard X also has a defense boost. The great thing about it is that it can burn the opponent, shift it out with Dragon Tail (which gets a nice bonus with a 130 base attack, STAB, and Tough Claws), and burn the next pokemon. It can heal with roost as needed and switch out when it feels threatened. As a safety net you can use substitute to burn opponents that may threaten. You can also use Earthquake to deal with any fire types that come in to absorb Burns.

    Why would a core between them be good?
    Together, the two pokemon resist nine types, which is half of all types. Mega Charizard can burn the opponents pokemon while shifting through them and spread burns quite nicely, too. Chesnaught is a useful defensive pokemon with access the leech seed. Chesnaught also has Spiky Shield which only Chesnaught has access to. Residual damage from Leech Seed, Burns, Dragon Tail, and Spiky Shield can accumulate, weakening the foes team and allowing for a lategame sweeper to come in and finish them off.

    Why can't they already form a good core together?

    Chesnaught is weak to:
    Fairy
    Fire

    Flying
    Ice
    Poison
    Psychic

    Charizard-Mega-X is weak to:
    Dragon
    Ground
    Rock


    One problem is a lack of defensive synergy, they have nine weaknesses total, but only 3 of them are covered. I'm not saying perfect synergy is required for an effective defensive core, but 6 glaring weaknesses is unacceptable, especially with flying type (4x super effective on Chesnaught) not covered in some way. The two pokemon are also more physically bulky than specially, and also mainly use physical attacks. What they need in a third core member is special bulkiness, decent typing to cover some leftover weaknesses, and decent special attack in order to cover the other side of the spectrum. Charizard can however, use special attacks itself with its 130 base special attack, so that part is less important. The two pokemon have trouble dealing with Lati@s They also have trouble dealing with special attackers in general to some degree. There are type combinations that can resist most of these uncovered types, types that already exist on real pokemon.

    Good type combinations for a third core member (open)


    Steel (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Fighting
    Pokemon with this type: Mega-Aggron
    Mega aggron cannot be used with Mega Charizard X so it is moot.

    Steel/Fairy (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: None
    Pokemon with this type: Klefki, Mawile
    Klefki does not work well because it is frail and just an annoyer.
    Mawile does not work well because it is only good as a mega. Also mawile has no special bulk whatsoever.

    Steel/Ghost (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Dark
    Pokemon with this type: Aegislash
    Aegislash could work to some degree, but if anything it would be something to take out the opponents weakened team, rather than part of the core.

    Steel/Psychic (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Dark
    Pokemon with this type: Jirachi, Metagross
    Metagross has poor special bulk.
    Jirachi could work to some degree because its bulky and stuff, but it does not really work as well as it could because of a lack of good support moves for the team. I mean jirachi does have a pretty great support movepool, but it really isn't complete without something like heal bell. Jirachi also has trouble dealing with Lati@as. Jirachi is however, one of the best options out of all the real pokemon available.

    Steel/Poison (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Psychic
    Pokemon with this type: None
    No pokemon exists with this type combination :/

    Steel/Flying (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Ice
    Pokemon with this type: Skarmory
    Skarmory doesnt have good special bulk or Special attack, but if it did it would be really great.

    Fire/Electric (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Poison, Psychic, Dragon
    Pokemon with this type: Rotom-Heat
    Rotom-Heat doesn't have any form of reliable healing or a way to deal with Lati@s. It honestly needs a reliable form of healing with only 50 HP.

    Rock/Fairy (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Poison, Psychic
    Pokemon with this type: Carbink
    Carbink suck lol

    Steel/Electric (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Fighting
    Pokemon with this type: Magnezone
    Magnezone is a bit lacking in Special Bulk :/

    Water/Steel (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Fighting
    Pokemon with this type: Empoleon
    Empoleon could work to some degree, it has stealtth rock, so it could help adding to residual damge. It also has special bulk and special attack, so it could work okay. It isnt too great at handling the latis tho and does not have reliable recovery.

    Fairy/Electric (open)

    Leftover Weaknesses: Ice, Poison, Psychic
    Pokemon with this type: Dedenne
    Do i really need to explain why dedenne is bad?




    I think its a bit farfetched to say there are so many better bulky status spreaders than Mega Charizard X. As I have said before, Dragon Tail. Dragon Tail allows Char to sift through the opponent's pokemon while burning them, and do damage with dragon tail at the same time. I'm not against the idea of other bulky status spreaders due to the opposition of Mega Evolutions, and I have considered other bulky status spreaders, but the reason Mega Charizard X stuck was Dragon Tail.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  11. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Pokemon:
    Politoed
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Abilities: Water Absorb / Damp / Drizzle
    Base Stats: 90 HP / 75 Atk / 75 Def / 90 SpA / 100 SpD / 70 Spe​

    Mega Manectric
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Ability: Intimidate
    Base Stats: 70 HP / 75 Atk / 80 Def / 135 SpA / 80 SpD / 135 Spe
    Reasoning:

    Last generation, Politoed dominated the metagame, provided immense amounts of support for multiple team archetypes, and made a variety of Pokemon and strategies viable simply by coming onto the field. However, Politoed now sees measly usage, clocking in at rank #72 with a pathetic 1.86789% usage. Politoed's fall from grace is especially ironic as last generation, it was common for the rain support it provided; however, focusing on Politoed for this CAP inherently suggests that it is now the Pokemon in need of support, something I think is worth looking into. The five-turn rain support that Politoed provides can be invaluable to teammates, boosting the strength of Water-type attacks, weakening Fire-type moves, and activating a handful of abilities such as Swift Swim and Hydration. Furthermore, Politoed's rain-boosted Hydro Pumps are still fairly strong, and when invested, Politoed has a decent amount of special bulk, giving it a certain degree of versatility. This generation, Manectric was gifted with an excellent Mega Evolution with a solid Special Attack stat and an excellent Speed stat, making it the fastest viable Electric-type in the tier. With an excellent base 135 Special Attack, it's fully capable of cleaning up late-game, and has access to a reliable Thunder with the rain that Politoed provides. Access to Fire-type moves such as Overheat and Flamethrower augments Mega Manectric's coverage, and Volt Switch allows it to function as a scout. Furthermore, Mega Manectric can weaken physical attackers with Intimidate, and so forms a decent offense / defense core with specially defensive Politoed.

    I believe that these two Pokemon are viable OU threats that do not see enough usage because of a variety of reasons. Regarding Politoed, the metagame has shifted heavily away from full-out weather teams due to the nerf to weather-starting abilities. Politoed is rarely run, especially considering its average stats as compared to the mainstays of the current OU metagame. Politoed faces competition as a general weather setter from Tyranitar, which boasts much better stats and a widely superior offensive movepool, Hippowdon, which has excellent defensive bulk and solid utility options, and Mega Charizard Y, which has access to an incredibly potent sun-boosted Fire Blast and a far superior Speed tier, among other things. Mega Manectric on the other hand, faces severe competition for a team's Mega Evolution from more powerful attackers, such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Garchomp, etc. Due to Mega Manectric's opportunity cost, its relatively shallow movepool, and average defensive stats, it's often looked over as of at the moment.

    I believe that choosing Politoed and Mega Manectric as the team members to work with allows us to learn more about the effectiveness of current cores in the metagame in the context of what was considered wholly viable last generation. As an added bonus, we also get to explore and assess the effectiveness of rain in its current state. I feel it is reasonable to assume that a majority of the players participating in this CAP are familiar with rain as it was last generation, and by centering our CAP on two rain-centric Pokemon, we can learn as to why rain teams fell so hard in the generation shift and whether or not rain teams are salvageable. If the core of these two Pokemon is successful in Major Third, then results might include the resurgence of rain teams or weather teams as a whole as well as the increase in usage of threats such as Toxicroak, Tentacruel, etc.


    Possibilities:

    Roles that the Pokemon created through Major Third can play include beating specially defensive Pokemon, such as Chansey and Goodra, which Politoed and Mega Manectric cannot get past. The CAP can assist in taking down bulky Grass-types in rain, tackle Dragon-types, etc. that the aforementioned Pokemon struggle with. The CAP can potentially utilize the Attack drop from Mega Manectric's Intimidate to set up or wall certain threats, and can ideally take advantage of rain in one way or another.

    I'll probably edit this post with more ideas! Hopefully I did everything right - this is my first time actually suggesting something for CAP.
  12. Karoshi

    Karoshi

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    My suggestion is Gardevoir (Ranked 56, 2.87119%) & Latias (Ranked 30, 6.17458%)

    Gardevoir is one of the best UU Pokemon (even being one of the most used in VGC '14) and still easily clears the "Lesser Used" Clause while Latias, even though being overshadowed by her brother has a lot to offer to the OU metagame. Both can run sets that preform similar roles in out speeding certain threats and delivering heavy blows or as a bulky calm mind. Either way, they have numerous checks and counters in common (Special Walls, Steel & Ghost types, Bisharp) and will appreciate a teammate that can handle them. On the flipside, the Pokemon that they themselves check/counter are fairly different due to their difference in typing. In addition, Fairy/Dragon has proven to be good in other cores with various other types, especially when paired with steel. One of the negatives to this suggestion however is that any Pokemon that has synergy with Latias also works well with Latios (Ranked 12, 12.75664%), which hurts this a bit.

    1. Why are these two Pokemon are viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?
    Gardevoir - While an excellent user of choice scarf, her Mega Evolution usage is limited on being a little two slow and competing against other more viable megas. She also has to deal with threats in the "Smogon OU" meta that doesn't exist in the VGC meta such as most legendaries. However, she boosts a great typing, movepool and stats and is more then capable against OU threats.
    Latias - Latios mainly. Much like the relationship between Nidoking/Nidoqueen the offensive orientated one sees more play.

    2. Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?
    It sort of does in Bisharp as it can handle most of their checks/counters with reletive ease. The downside is that it's low speed and bulk make it hinder it's survivability and offensive pressure making this a less then perfect core. This weakness is also hindered by the fact that most teams shouldn't have more then one scarfer which Gardevoir is better suited as.

    3. Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon.
    If built correctly, CaP18 wouldn't provide the necessary assets to form a core with a physical Dragon and the Lati@s twins are the most widespread special orientated dragons in OU. In addition, if made fast enough it can keep offensive pressure on the opponents side gaining a ton of synergy with Gardevoir. Again, the tricky part would to make it a better partner for Latias instead of Latios. That onto itself could be interesting to look into.
    Shiruba likes this.
  13. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,547
    Pokemon: Goodra (#45 OU) and Gyarados (#35 OU)

    At a Glance: (open)


    [​IMG]
    Goodra
    Dragon
    /---
    BST: 90 HP/100 Atk/70 Def/110 SpA/150 SpD/70 Spe (total 600)
    Abilities: Sap Sipper/Hydration/Gooey
    Notable Moves: Outrage | Dragon Pulse | Aqua Tail | Power Whip | Ice Beam | Thunderbolt | Earthquake | Sludge Wave | Fire Blast | Focus Blast | Rock Slide | Dragon Tail | Acid Armor | Counter | Curse | Iron Tail | Draco Meteor

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados
    Water/Flying
    (ME: Water/Dark)
    BST: 95 HP/125 Atk/79 Def/60 SpAtk/100 SpDef/81 Spe
    Abilities: Intimidate/Moxie (ME Only: Mold Breaker)
    Notable Moves: Taunt|Dragon Dance|Waterfall|Bounce|Stone Edge|Earthquake|Ice Fang|Dragon Tail|Thunder Wave|Roar​


    1. Why are these Pokemon viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?

    Goodra is a hard hitting special tank with the unique ability Gooey, which slows down any pokemon who makes contact. With a 600 BST that includes 90/70/150 defenses and 110 SpA, Goodra has the ability to run a wide variety of sets, functioning as either a last pokemon Curse abuser pure special wall or a tank using Assault Vest. However, Goodra has been passed over for other defensive pokemon for a few reasons. Most notable is its typing, pure Dragon, which has resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric but is also crucially weak to Dragon, Fairy, and Ice attacks. It also falls a little short in team support, as its only status option is Toxic and it doesn't have the ability to heal teammates like Chansey.

    Gyarados, on the other hand, has a very wide movepool including many boosting moves like Dragon Dance, utility moves like Roar and Thunder Wave, and a strong physical attacking movepool. It is also blessed with two strong abilities (Intimidate and Moxie) and a good typing that allow it to easily come in and set up. Gyarados, however, has trouble with bulky waters who can Scald spam him to death, as well as with any pokemon who commonly carries Electric coverage. When set up, Gyarados trades the higher damage and speed of other Dragon Dancers like Dragonite for better bulk, which is a tradeoff many OU players are not willing to make.

    2. Why do these pokemon not form an effective core right now?

    Even though Gyarados can easily pass special attacks (most notably Electric type attacks) to Goodra, Goodra cannot effectively pass attacks back. Many of the attacks Goodra would like to switch out of like Stone Edge, Outrage, and Play Rough can't be passed to Gyarados safely. Additionally, while both pokemon provide balanced stats with good bulk and damage, Gyarados has to choose between a boosting set and team utility.

    3. Why will CAP18 form a great core with these two Pokemon more then any other 2 OU Pokemon?

    Goodra and Gyarados both have traits which ensure that they will be difficult to replace in this core. Gyarados brings the team utility that fellow boosters Kingdra and Dragonite lack, and has a better attacking movepool to go along with Dragon Dance then the former. Goodra, on the other hand, is a special wall that doesn't just take attacks, but fires back. It even punishes enemy physical attackers with Gooey. Both are strong pokemon who are missing an essential piece in team support and partners, and CAP 18 can be that piece.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  14. Dragonblaze052

    Dragonblaze052

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    211
    Pokemon Name: Jellicent and Thundurus (Therian Form)

    Why this Pokemon: Jellicent and Thundurus T both have amazing typing and fairly good stats for their role, but both are overshadowed by another Pokemon filling their role. Jellicent faces stiff competition from several other bulky Water types (mainly Tentacruel) where as Thundurus T is outcompeted by several great special sweepers that typically outspeed it or sometimes just have greater survivability. Furthermore, both face competition with Rotom Wash that fills a roll somewhere between the two, being a Bulky Water type with status moves AND having access to powerful STAB Electric attacks. Both have access to an ability that heals them for a large chunk of their health, but they rarely make use of them aside from maybe one good prediction per game. Despite all of this, these Pokemon have fallen short of OU in Gen VI so far because of better options that don't quite do the same job as these two Pokemon. Thundurus T is able to take out anything with mediocre or even good defenses with its astounding 145 base SpAtk and anything too bulky or otherwise able to resist Thundurus T can be brought down by Jellicent's statuses. Despite this, they are still uniformly walled by the likes of Blissey, able to shrug off any damage Thundurus can deal while removing the statuses Jellicent can inflict. If paired with something that can cover up their weaknesses and compliment their strengths, I see this as a potentially amazing pair that could form a powerful synergy.

    What are the possibilities: A Pokemon that can consistently deal with powerful Special Walls like Blissey and other Pokemon like Toxic Stall Gliscor that can otherwise prevent these Pokemon from effectively doing their jobs. The most obvious answer to this would be a powerful physical Ice type, like Weavile or Kyurem Black, but this causes two of the three to be weak to SR with the third doing nothing to mitigate this, which is why these two don't effectively synergize with these Pokemon in the current meta. Anything that would cover the type based weaknesses of these two while openly inviting Water and Electric attacks to heal its Core members on a switch would greatly increase the efficiency of this core, but there are many other options. I feel that this pairing opens up many great possibilities for building a unique and interesting Pokemon that fills this three part core unlike any current Pokemon truly can.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
    User of Shadows and M-WHALE like this.
  15. Clankenator007

    Clankenator007
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    dese mudafuggin guys.PNG
    These guys. These f**king guys. If were talking cores its not really enough to say: well X Pokemon covers Y's weaknesses well so they synergize pretty well. Yes that's good start, but that's not the big picture You are pretty much going to see one of these top 10 OU Pokemon every match. Yes having covered resistances are nice, but there are maybe 50 moves used between these top 10 mons and even less types. These top ten are going to be seen nearly every game so you sure as hell better have a duo that can do well against at least half these Pokemon or else there is nothing we can really do with CAP1 to save your core.

    Even if the pair isn't perfect (it shouldn't be or else it would be high OU!) it's got to at least do well against some of these Pokemon.

    Let's quickly take a look at OU in a nutshell:
    • Lots of powerful Fire, Water, Ghost, Flying, Fighting, Dark, Steel, Dragon, Ground, and Fairy attacks. 10 offensive types to look out for. If we go defensive worry about these the most and don't worry about the rest very much.
    • Utility Spamfest. Prepare to eat thunder waves, will-o-wisps, Knock offs, U-turns, and Volt-Switches. Especially if we go with an offensive core.
    • Hazards. Show me someone who doesn't use Stealth Rock on any of their teams and I will show you someone who likes losing. The same follows for ways to remove hazards.
    • Shenanigans. You will see shenanigans in this tier and while they may not be the best strategies if you forget to pack something that beats them you will be a sad panda. Focus Sash sticky Web / Baton Pass leads, Spore spam, Swag Play, etc. Are any of these particularly good? No. Will they infuriate you? Yes. Will you lose / rage quit if you face them unprepared? Yes. This is why people run them in the first place.
    It's not necessary to have a duo that can deal with all of this ^ - rounding out the duo's weaknesses is what CAP1 is for, but they need to handle some of it. If they can't, well, that's why they have such low usage. If this core we are developing is meant to take up half our teamslots, it best deal with OU pretty well. I know this concept isn't meant to be specifically anti-meta, but you have to be at least a little anti-meta to keep up.

    And one last tidbit before I end this post. Pokemon on a core have to be able to switch in on something. That is the reason to use a core. Switching between your core members is at the heart of why cores even work. Not every Pokemon has to be able to switch in easily to be good on a team, but in a core that is everything. As much as I love Pokemon like Gardevior, Starmie, Noivern, and Weaville (Not calling anyone out just naming low usage Pokemon that someone might want to pick) they can't switch in on very much. Or really anything. Good Pokemon. Bad core members.

    tl:dr- don't just look at typing and roles in a vacuum, remember what is relevant in OU.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  16. Mowtom

    Mowtom

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    293
    Pokemon Name: Alakazam and Terrakion

    Why this Pokemon: Both of these Pokemon were very good in BW2 OU, but have gotten much worse with the transition to XY. They are both very fast and strong, but with the introduction of powerful priority and the Fairy type, things are looking down. Alakazam, though it got a stat increase and a Mega Evolution, only got worse, with Pokemon such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir being able to decimate it with their strong physical priority. Terrakion got a new weakness with the Fairy type, its 108 base speed isn't as good as it used to be, and the rocks it easily can set up are much easier to remove than they used to be. These two Pokemon can work together well, however, with Terrakion taking out Talonflame and Pinsir for Alakazam and Alakazam taking out Conkeldurr for Terrakion. Together, they would be able to work well, except Alakazam has difficulties switching into battle, as it needs its Focus Sash intact.

    What are the possibilities: Major Third can work very well with these two Pokemon. To begin with, it MUST be a stop to Aegislash, who is the biggest threat to this core. A defensive CAP 18 would probably work the best, as Alakazam and Terrakion are both very offenisvly oriented and, Terrakion especially, have many common weaknesses. It could possibly Wish Alakazam to full health on a non-KOing attack, or have a slow VoltTurn to let Alazakam come in unharmed. TO help Terakkion, it should probably have many resistances to offset Terrakion's many weaknesses.
  17. Ununhexium

    Ununhexium

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2014
    Messages:
    1,405
    Pokemon: Staraptor and Celebi

    Why are these viable OU threats that are not seeing much usage? Steel types. Resisting both of the two's STABs, it can be hard to use them effectively. While Close Combat and Earth Power respectively can patch some of these problems up, there can be issues. Aegislash, one of the top OU threats as of late, resists all of Staraptor's STABs and his coverage move and only being hit super effectively by Celebi's Earth Power, which can be played around. But why use them? Staraptor is in my opinion, one of the best wallbreakers in OU. With a Choice Band, he can obliterate lots of things with is STAB Reckless Brave Bird and (sometimes) Double Edge. Also, he has Close Combat (his best coverage move), U-Turn, and Quick attack so he can kill some Steel types, gain momentum, and pick off weakened threats. Now on to Celebi. Celebi is almost completely outclassed in a defensive role by Mega-Venusaur but it can fill a role as a boosting sweeper. She can boost her special attack with Nasty Plot and attack with Giga Drain, Psychic, Energy Ball, Earth Power (they all have their merits) or can go a more unconventional (but one of my favorite in UU) routes as a Swords Dance sweeper. She can dance with her blade and go to town with Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, and Sucker Punch.

    Why do these two not form an effective core together? Steel types. They resist every one of their STABs combined and can oftentimes tank an Earth Power or Close Combat. Also, they have some stats that come up just short. Celebi's attacking stats can be a little underwhelming while Staraptor's speed can come up just short sometimes. They can also by murdered by anything with a base speed greater than or equal to 101 (though all I can think of with 101 speed is Pidgeot). This means Garchomp can outspeed and kill both of them.

    Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon? It could pick off many of their counters as a core. It could kill Pokemon with trolly speed (coughgarchompcough) or kill sturdy walls with that oh-so horrible steel typing.This CAP could be effective alone, but especially with these two. The hardest part with these two would be to fit in another Pokemon two support the team as a whole.

    Any feedback is appreciated
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
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  18. M-WHALE

    M-WHALE

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    25
    Pokemon of choice: Diggersby and Mega-Ampharos

    Why these Pokemon: When you think about Coverage, typing, and stat distribution, these guys look like they would cover each other very well. Diggersby is one of the most powerful physical attackers in the tier, and mega-amphy is one of the most powerful special attackers. Diggersby, when running his most viable set, which is choice scarf imo,it can pull off a fast, powerful u-turn and switch into mega amphy, who can pull off a slow volt-switch to protect frail diggersby on the switch.they hit a lot of pokemon for super-effective damage, amphy can eat thunder waves, and both can keep momentum as stated before. out of the top 10 OU most used pokes, diggersby can easily check Aegis, Charizard x, and Heatran, and amphy checks azumarill, and counters zard y and t-flame.

    What are the Possibilities: The major third would need to be able to stop garchomp, rotom-w, greninja, and scizor. something to eat up burns would be nice, although amphy can si,mply take those if necessary. a fast taunt to stop gimmicks would also be an asset to this core.a full on counter to bisharp and garchomp, who threaten both ampharos and diggersby, would also be great. mega pinsir is also a major threat, and both are slightly walled by mega venusaur. So, a fast (105+ base speed) mon with a dark resist and taunt and maybe guts would be ideal. could carry ice beam as well.and perhaps energy ball. (feedback appreciated)

    Good Luck to you all!
  19. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,414
    First off, want to say that I'm very excited to do this concept. I think we're going to have some awesome discussions trying to discuss the concept of core-based teams, and I can't wait to get started!

    ...so I will!

    My Proposed Core:
    [​IMG] + [​IMG]
    Whimsicott and Tentacruel

    Does This Core Fit Our Parameters?


    | 60 | Tentacruel | 2.58453% | 202334 | 3.968% | 163509 | 4.046% |
    | 106 | Whimsicott | 0.86471% | 91827 | 1.801% | 75171 | 1.860% |


    Tentacruel sits at #60 on the 1760 rankings (under normal statistics, it's a fringe OU Pokemon), while Whimsicott just barely misses out on the top 100. These Pokemon aren't /too/ far down to be considered useless or unviable, but they definitely don't see enough usage to be considered effective Pokemon. I'd say they meet this requirement.

    Why These Pokemon?
    [​IMG]
    Whimsicott
    Grass/Fairy
    Stats:

    60 HP / 67 Atk / 65 Def / 77 SpA / 75 SpD / 116 Spe

    Whimsicott was gifted with a re-typing when it entered the XY metagame: Grass / Fairy. That gives is a slew of really good resistances and really specific weaknesses. It resists Water, Grass, Ground, Fighting, Dark, Electric and is immune to Dragon. It is weak against Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel and Poison (4x). It has an amazing slew of support moves to utilize in conjunction with its ability Prankster, including things such as Stun Spore, Encore, Leech Seed, Cotton Guard, Switcheroo, and everything in between. It has a great Speed stat of 116, which lets it out-speed a lot of other priority abusers. Gen VI also gave it a neat new toy in Moonblast, a powerful STAB option that hits for respectable damage even with its otherwise pedestrian Attack stat. It does not have the stats to outright tank hits, but it doesn't have the worst defensive stats in the world, and its seven resistances/immunities are a boon.
    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel
    Water/Poison
    Stats:

    80 HP / 70 Atk / 65 Def / 80 SpA / 120 SpD / 100 Spe

    Tentacruel was once the glue for a lot of teams back in the days of Generation IV and Generation V. With the removal of permanent Rain and the introduction of very powerful threats, however, Tentacruel just hasn't had the usage it once had. That does not mean it's a bad Pokemon at all, however, and it still has a very unique purpose. Water / Poison is still pretty good defensively. It resists Water, Fire, Steel, Poison, Ice and Fighting. It is weak to Electric, Ground and Psychic. Rapid Spin support is something that may have gone a bit under in usage thanks to the changing of Defog, but for some offensive and bulky offensive teams that need hazards, there's few that do it as well as Tentacruel. Toxic Spikes is another cool thing it gets, giving a lot of team much needed status support against bulky or stall teams. Access to Scald also is a benefit, allowing to be a pseudo-"dual status spreader" in conjunction with Toxic Spikes.

    Why This Core Has Potential:

    As a support core, Whimsicott + Tentacruel already compliment each other very well. Together, they both resist quite a few things, and they each do check out each other's weaknesses very well. The exceptions to this are Psychic and Flying moves. Both are just amazing at providing team support, not just for one another but for the entirety of the team. Whimsicott is capable of stopping status boosters, sapping life, spreading status and taking care of key switch-ins that are weak to Fairy. Tentacruel eliminates pesky hazards that hinders health gain, is immune to Toxic, spreads Toxic Spikes and burn, and puts status-based pressure on the opponent. Essentially, both Pokemon have a high skill curve that relies on secondary tactics in order to help one another.

    What This Core Lacks:

    As said, these Pokemon tend to have a higher learning curve than most to be effective, essentially being cast off by most players as "useless" due to the nature of their playstyles. They can be effective if used correctly, but it takes a good deal of effort to do so. A third Pokemon to alleviate this learning curve could prove very useful in utilizing their more support-oriented tactics. This core is stopped cold by most Grass Pokemon that are immune to Toxic. That includes the likes of MegaVenusaur and Ferrothorn, two Pokemon that are a thorn in these two's side (pun absolutely intended, you shut your mouth). In fact, most Grass Pokemon give this core trouble naturally. Magic Guard users like Clefable also give status-based strategies some trouble, being immune to most passive damage attacks. Defensively, strong STAB Psychic attacks from the likes of things like MegaGardevoir and Latios could prove deadly. Their naturally low Defense also leave them open to many strong neutral Physical attacks, although their combined resistances do alleviate this.

    Why a Third Pokemon Addition Works:

    With the information given about this core, we have already narrowed down select issues that such status-driven Pokemon face. Most of these issues focus on the fact that there are threats within the metagame that could easily disrupt the flow of status spreaders and support Pokemon such as these two. It's very hard to name a concrete Pokemon that has the ability to open up opportunities for status moves to work. Sure, there are Pokemon that open up sweeping opportunities or eliminate Pokemon that otherwise give Stall a hard time. However, what was once a very viable strategy in the past - focusing on crippling the opposing team to a point where the opposing team is rendered useless, regardless of HP - is now extremely difficult to pull off. With a third member added to the core, one that focuses on getting past Pokemon that can take advantage of those unafraid of status moves while aiding this core offensively and defensively, there is a chance that this oft-forgotten strategy could see some usage once more and open up a playstyle that could be both very fun to use and very effective.
  20. SquirtleSquad626

    SquirtleSquad626

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    69
    Pokemon: Umbreon and Sableye

    Why these Pokemon?: These Pokemon formed and incredibly viable, yet not-so-common, defensive core in GenV; but now, with the introduction of Fairy types, these two now share a common weakness that they are incapable of overcoming. Sableye burns and taunts physical and set-up sweepers; Umbreon sponges most attacks and status, while also healing, then can also either damage with a move of choice or inflict toxic. Together they could wall a majority of the metagame (Rotom wash, Charizard Y, Aegislash, special greninja, garchomp, and most scizor). but then, everything changed when the fairy-nation attacked...... :0

    What are the possibilities?: An ideal third teammate for these two would be someone who could not only check common fairy types, but also provide more of an offensive presence and/or an offensive pivot as well as putting a stop to guts-users (i'm looking at you conkledurr).

    In conclusion, I want to say that I've been looking forward to contribution to a CAP project for a while now, and I'm just excited to be a part of this :) Looking forward to comments and input!
  21. The Reptile

    The Reptile mfw
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,216
    I suggest Slowbro (#61) and Amoongus (#95)

    Slowbro and Amoongus make for a great defensive core thanks to Regenerator and their good synergy and bulk. They also have great bulk and utility between them, making them an effective defensive core, especially back in Gen 5. Gen 6 lets Slowbro use an Assault Vest to become even bulkier. Looking at common pokemon, they do decent against mons like Azumarill and Conkeldurr. However, they do have issues that prevent them from being amazing. The first is that flying-types can do damage to the team, as Amoongus is weak to it and Slowbro doesn't like being hammered by them. Mega Pinsir is one of these mons that gives Amoonbro problems. Another problem is the power of the Ghost-type in Gen 6; Aegislash can prove a problem to the core after something is put to sleep by Amoongus. The other issue is Knock Off - It completely destroys Slowbro and removes Amoongus's Black Sludge. Bisharp is a notable user that gives the core problems, even with Fire Blast Slowbro as it would need to hit it on the switch. Bisharp also shrugs off most of Amoongus's moves. Crawdaunt is also a problem. It can come in on Slowbro and smack the team with Adaptability Knock Offs. The fact that Grass-types can't be put to sleep is also kind of an issue, although Amoongus can deal with Grass-types, and Slowbro can too if it carries Ice Beam / Fire Blast. Charizard Y is also a huge threat to this core, as it can just Solar Beam Slowbro while it can't do much back due to sun, and it obviously destroys Amoongus's life with Sun Boosted Fire STABs. Even Zard X is a threat, as Slowbro also can't do much to that either while it sets up and wrecks it with strong STABs. Mega Venusaur is also a problem to this core.

    A Pokemon that can deal with Aegislash, Flying-types such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, Charzard X and Y, Knock Off users (mainly Bisharp and Crawdaunt) and Ghost- and Dark-type pokemon in general. Something to beat Mandibuzz might also be desirable, as a set with Taunt and Roost could outstall Slowbro and Amoongus can't do much thanks to Overcoat and Amoongus being kind of weak. It might be a bit difficult to deal with all of these threats, but out mon should deal with at least most of them. At the very least, I feel that the Knock Off users and Charizard Y are the most threatening to the core.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  22. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    CAP Head Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,758
    I'm not feeling any inspiration for a core quite yet, but that's alright. Please don't feel the need to litter this thread with core ideas only for the sake of posting. There's a lot to discuss here, and I don't find it overly conducive to have everything throwing around Pokemon willy-nilly. Yes, keep the good core ideas coming, but don't be afraid to bring up the subject of what a core is. toshimelonhead's post resonates with me; although I don't agree with it entirely, it is important to note the distinction between various types of cores.

    An offensive core with defensive attributes seems like the best way to go here. Rotom-W and Heatran are two of the Pokemon I'd consider to be some of the most recognized "core" members of Gen V. The former has usable disruptive moves and can snag momentum with Volt Switch, while the latter is solid at hazard control and has great stats. However, the biggest attributes to note about these two Pokemon are their excellent typing and useful immunities. Those both fall under a single category that I feel should define this concept: Momentum.

    It's a term we toss around all the time, and I find it to be especially applicable for cores. Immunities grant easy access into the match, while excellent typing can lead to good offensive pressure and more switch-ins. Pokemon that force switches and make switches are ideal here. Right at the top of my qualifying list for ideal core-mons for this concept are those with Volt Switch or U-Turn. Anything and everything we can do to snag momentum in a match is going to be key for making this concept work. Think bulky offense. If we can design a core that can frequently gain momentum off of the Pokemon and typings that Clankenator007 listed earlier, then we're going to be in excellent shape.
  23. Admiral_Stalfos19

    Admiral_Stalfos19

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    395
    I think I might give these two guys a shot.

    Galvantula and Magnezone

    1. Why are these two Pokemon viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?

    Galvantula is one of the few Pokemon with access to Sticky Web, arguably the best entry hazard to have come forth from XY. Not only that, but even with Rain usage grinding to a halt, Galvantula can still use Thunder effectively, because Compound Eyes raises its accuracy from Focus Miss territory to a much more respectable 91%, just above Overheat, Leaf Storm and Draco Meteor. However, Galvantula is usually left to the wayside for Smeargle, who not only also has Sticky Web, but can use Spore on top of that to put enemy Pokemon to sleep, as well as potentially laying down additional hazards *cough*StealthRock*cough*. Magnezone maybe now classed as a UU Pokemon, but its ability to trap Steels with Magnet Pull will always be valuable in OU, especially with Pokemon like Skamory roaming the tier. With an Assault Vest and some EV investment in HP and/or Defense, Magnezone can be used to take blows for Galvantula, and provide a slow Volt Switch for the EleSpider to get back into the fray unharmed. However, many OU Steels have EQ to fight back against Magnezone should they be trapped by it. The Pokemon that would best serve as case and point would be Aegislash, as he resides in 3rd place on the usage leader-board, and can use Sacred Sword to great effect if need be.

    2. Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?

    While Magnezone can handle Rock-type attacks thrown at Galvantula's way, both of these Pokemon share a weakness in Fire-type attacks, which is especially problematic considering that Charizard and Talonflame are just above and below Aegislash respectively. In addition to that, Volt Switch, the one move that allows the two Pokemon to switch back and forth between one another, is stopped cold by Ground-type Pokemon and those that carry the Volt Absorb, Motor Drive and Lightning Rod traits. Therefore, the ideal Pokemon for a Major Third would be a slow, bulky Water with access to U-Turn.

    3. Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon?

    About the best other contender for a core between Galvantula and Magnezone is Rotom-W, a Volt Switch user with an Electric typing to counteract Water's weakness to STAB attacks from Electric Pokemon, the only common users of the after-mentioned Volt Switch blocking traits, and who causes most Ground types to scurry away as few have the means to break its defenses. One exception would be Excadrill, as he can use Mold Breaker to bypass Levitate and is slightly faster. However, Excadrill has to bank on Hydro Pump's shaky accuracy for the miss if it doesn't get the KO, which can happen since Rotom-W is known to be bulky. Speaking of Hydro Pump, it's the only move that Rotom-W can use to fend off Ground-types, which is worrisome because it's not hard to PP stall Hydro Pump at all. Most Water Pokemon don't have this problem requiring a low PP and accuracy move to be a threat, so if CAP18 were to be modeled after Rotom-W, then it will make a great core between itself, Galvantula and Magnezone, as the three can always U-turn and Volt Switch between each other as they need to.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  24. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    Okay, since I clearly can't make a good core, I'm going to look at other peoples' stuff instead (it's so much easier to critique someone else's creation).

    One worrying thing I'm seeing a lot of is cores that appear to be just two random lesser-used pokemon. You cannot just pick two pokemon you like and expect our CAP to make them a good core. Pick two pokemon that already work together well and cover many of each others' weaknesses (not necessarily literal type weaknesses), but have some flaws that a third pokemon would be able to alleviate. Good examples of this include The Reptile's core of Amoongus and Slowbro, srk1214's core of Manaphy and Mega Manectric, and blitzlefan's core of Mega Manectric and Politoed. All of these have very carefully thought out and explained synergy between the two pokemon used.

    Another problem I'm seeing, on a smaller scale, is very vague suggestions about the third pokemon's qualities. Find specific weaknesses in your core and equally specific qualities in the CAP that will patch them. Just general stuff like "strong attacker" and "improve the core's synergy" is not helpful in assessing a concept. Again, The Reptile did an excellent job of this, pinpointing specific threats to his core and prioritizing which ones the Major Third should beat.

    In case you haven't notice, I really like The Reptile's concept. It's kinda like the infinitely better version of mine, especially since Slowbro has so much more available recovery than Mega Blastoise (Mega Blastoise getting worn down was the biggest issue in my analysis of my Blastoise + Celebi core). I can see this going very well, although we should keep in mind that anything requiring a Charizard X and Y counter will be very difficult. Same goes for the many cores suggesting an Aegislash counter.
    ryby, S0L1D G0LD and Classical like this.
  25. EyeDentist

    EyeDentist

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Messages:
    69
    I've been trying to use Mega-Heracross successfully all of gen VI, but I can't seem to get a good core for it. This might be a good chance to bring this behemoth to the front, where I think it belongs.

    I suggest Mega-Heracross and Magnezone.

    1. Why are these two Pokemon viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?

    Well, Mega-Heracross has 185 base attack. That's simply something that is monstrous and overwhelming... Right? As Pokemon gets more and more advanced, 185 base attack isn't as frightening as it used to be. Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir can shatter it without any risk of being out-sped, Skarmory and Landorus-T can switch in and wall it, and there's prankster Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp out there who can conquer it. Mega-Heracross has great bulk, also, and enough speed to break stall. I think its crippling weakness to flying, a suddenly popular offensive type, is what is keeping it from being more popular.

    Magnezone is a great Pokemon, it has great bulk, greater special attack, and the ability, Magnet Pull, which stops steel types from escaping. Steel may be the most popular type out there, so something like this, built to eliminate them, should be seen often. Sadly, it has a double weakness to ground, which is a commonly seen type used by steels. If it doesn't go first and get the kill, then it's boned. Specially defensive Heatran and Aegislash might not pack ground moves, but they do pack fire and fighting respectively, which are the other two sad weaknesses it has.

    2. Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?

    Mega-Heracross is the star here, as it can punch a hole in any team without set-up. When the opponent has some sort of physical wall, Magnezone can easily defeat it, especially if it's steel type. The two work together offensively in that one hits the physical spectrum and the other hits the special spectrum. With fighting, bug, grass, rock, ice, and steel, a total of 14 mono-types (Heracross getting 12 alone) are hit super-effective, only missing ghost, poison, fighting, and electric.

    This bulky offensive core shares a weakness in fire, though. Talonflame is very able to rip through the core, which is why a defensive rock type might help the core work effectively. Another problem with the core is that neither Pokemon has recovery. The core is meant to be bulky, but with spikes or status effects, switching quickly takes a toll on their health, making them unable to survive long. Something to help prevent this problem would be a hazard remover with Magic Bounce, Defog, or Rapid Spin. It would also effectively help the core if it could provide free switches, be that in a slow volt-turn or a good bluff.

    3. Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon?

    The duo suffers from a lack of support and a weakness to fire types. Looking at defog and magic bounce, we have nothing viable that covers this weakness, and looking at rapid spin, the only one that completely covers the weakness is Mega-Blastoise, which is not possible, since Mega-Heracross is already in use.

    Thank you for reading this. Hopefully, we'll see more of these two Pokemon, which both sound incredible on paper.
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