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CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 1

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by jas61292, Mar 10, 2014.

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  1. Classical

    Classical

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    Gonna throw my support behind reptile's idea

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Amoonguss & Slowbro are a core that thrive on bulk, resistances, and their ability to maim a large portion of the pokemon they switch into with either a Super-effective STAB or Status attack. Last generation they proved to lock down a lot of threats that were emerging alongside Keldeo and the Therian Genies, however now these guys have fallen to the wayside as this generation has turned up the required skill level to use them. This generation with the shift toward the flying-type along with the knock off buff have left these guys as a relatively cheap switch for some top threats, leaving them unloved, despite their ability to hold at bay a large portion of the meta.



    How will the new guy help: Possibilities to the major third for the core are primarily offensive in nature. It should check the threats that offend the core and be able to take advantage of the forced switches, possible ways to do this? Let it check the threats and then be able to set up for a sweep, lay down hazards that amoonbro has a passion for as they constantly force switches, gain momentum with a switching move (Baton Pass, U-turn, Volt Switch), just have downright frightening powerlevels off the bat, or any combination therin . The primary goal of the Cap in this core is offensive pressure that forces the opponent to respond and giving switchs for Moonbro to heal up with. I believe that primarily the threat needs to be offensive in nature for the core to succeed, or at least to most flying types, I don't believe that stacking status on top of spore, scald, and potentially twave will solve the issue, and defensively the threats before the core are almost insurmountable, the core needs an to check the select badboys that threaten this core. However if the threats are checked, then how it goes about taking it's free turns are up for grabs.


    tl;dr?
    • CAP1 to check most pokes that threaten these two guys (Flying types, Charizard, Knock Off)
    • CAP1 takes advantage to benefit or enable the constant switching of regen cores (Switching moves, Offensive pressure, Hazards)
    • CAP1 Doesn't attempt to defensively block the threats (Not feasible)
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  2. ParadOxymoron

    ParadOxymoron

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    Metagross
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Ranked
    : 96
    Abilities: Clear Body / Light Metal
    Base Stats: 80 HP / 135 Atk / 130 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 70 Spe

    Hydreigon
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Ranked: 82
    Ability: Levitate
    Base Stats: 92 HP / 105 Atk / 90 Def / 125 SpA / 90 SpD / 98 Spe
    1. Why are these two Pokémon viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?

    These two 600-BST Pokémon have fallen by the wayside this generation. Metagross gained two weaknesses to Dark and Ghost and suffered a nerf to Meteor Mash, while Hydreigon gained a 4x weakness to Fairy. Metagross gained a powerful new item in Assault Vest, but it wasn't enough to fix the problems that began appearing for him last generation.

    The good news is, these Pokémon complement each other very well. While Metagross is countered primarily by Skarmory and Forretress, two Pokémon known to set up Spikes, Hydreigon has Levitate to prevent that from being a problem, and has Fire Blast or Flamethrower to take them out. In addition, Hydreigon covers all of Metagross's weaknesses. Metagross, for his part, is practically designed to counter the bulky Fairy types that are Hydreigon's bane, and resists everything Hydreigon is weak to except Fighting and Bug.

    2. Why do these Pokémon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?

    Both Metagross and Hydreigon are stopped in their tracks by Rotom-W, and neither of them can stop an Aegislash sweep. They don't have the Grass move to deal with Rotom-W, and as for Aegislash, Metagross is weak to Shadow Sneak, and Hydreigon is weak to Sacred Sword.

    Originally I focused on designing a Pokémon similar to Heatran, as he is the only Pokémon in OU that can counter both the bulky Steel types that counter Metagross, as well as the bulky Fairy types that counter Hydreigon. But somebody pointed out in a PM to me that I wasn't looking at the bigger picture: Metagross already has the Fairy types covered, and Hydreigon already has the Steel types covered. The point of a third member would not be to counter what the core can already counter, but rather to counter what neither member can deal with. This is how I came to focus on Rotom-W and Aegislash.

    I think designing a Pokémon that can deal with both Rotom-W and Aegislash, the two most popular Pokémon in the game right now, would be very interesting for the purposes of learning about the metagame. In addition, it would allow our Pokémon to be used outside of just the core it was designed for.

    3. Why will this third Pokémon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon?

    Because none of the Pokémon designed to deal with Rotom-W can also stop an Aegislash sweep. The closest approximation would be Breloom or Chesnaught, but Aegislash resists both of their STABs.

    Other things that would be helpful, but not essential, to have some way of doing:
    • Dealing with the entry hazards set up by Skarmory and Forretress while walling Metagross.
    • Countering Wish, a support move run by many of the Pokémon that counter Hydreigon.
    • Taking advantage of Tailwind, Hydreigon's most popular support move.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
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  3. Lasagne

    Lasagne THE HERO APPEARS
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    Similarly to Birkal, I'm not sure of a core yet. When the inspiration strikes, I'll be sure to post it here, but until then, I'd just like to state my opinion on the sort of core that would work out well in my opinion.

    Once again referring to Birkal's post, I think he captured a key idea in that of Momentum. In my opinion, a good thing to base this core around is that very idea. By gaining momentum, in whichever way we choose, we can make the core flow more smoothly. By this I mean that the switching between individual members of the core can be made much more simple and fluid. We don't necessarily have to use the usual tools of moves such as U-Turn and Volt Switch (or parting shot huehuehue). A Pokemon can gain momentum for a team by simply forcing switches and taking advantage of these switches. One way of taking advantage is using moves that they are unprepared for. An example of this is in the Mega Manectric + Manaphy core. srk stated that Manaphy can choose to run Psychic to beat Mega Venusaur, which is otherwise a massive pain for the core, as Manectric deals with the Water-types for which Manaphy usually carries Energy Ball. Many people will choose to switch a Mega Venusaur in on Manaphy, as it is usually a solid check, but with Psychic, it is caught off guard and a threat is immediately dealt with, opening up opportunities to potentially sweep with something that is troubled by Mega Venusaur. Obviously the option of simply using Volt Switch/U-Turn users is still present, and definitely still one to be considered as a way to gain momentum, but there are other options that open more interesting side doors that haven't been explored as thoroughly, which could make for an interesting CAP project.

    TooMuchSugar made a good post in which (s)he talked about the fact that we don't want two random Pokemon that have nothing to do with each other. We don't care if you really like Sceptile and Braviary. While this is an extreme example, it fits what I'm trying to say. They are not Pokemon that are viable in OU, and definitely not ones that deserve more usage than they are getting (idk how much they're getting, i just assume its right - aka low). On the opposite end of the scale, we don't want Pokemon that already go almost perfectly together. There is no point trying to create a third Pokemon to fit into the core of Skarmory and Blissey, as they are a standalone core and don't need assistance from a third party to perform efficiently. What we really want with this project is a pair of Pokemon that acts as a halfway point between the two. The pair we are looking for works well together - each Pokemon deals with some threats to the other. However, there should be a crossover of checks/counters between the two. Using CAP18, we can deal with this crossover while creating a good Pokemon in its own right. I believe this is what we should be trying to achieve.

    edit: Also, can I just ask that people actually put thought into their cores before posting? I already said that we shouldn't just be posting our favourite Pokemon, but I want to specify that before posting the core, we should really be assessing our core from a readers point of view, and asking ourselves if it is really what we want in this core.
  4. Dennis Moberg

    Dennis Moberg

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    My first post in a CAP discussion and I'm not really that into competetive singles so I'll just share more general thoughts.

    I'd like if the core partners we decide on are of the type that latter discussions will thrive. With this I mean is, I don't want it to be completely obvious what our CAP poke needs to create a good core. So that we don't end up with a situation where we all know that "the CAP needs to be a Tyranitar with U-turn to act as a pivot", for example. Hope this makes sense.

    I'm liking the ideas so far though, will be fun to follow them.
  5. Brammi

    Brammi

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    First big point I see, is to agree with all the people saying that choosing a Mega-Evo is a bad idea. The main reasoning behind this that it takes away creatively from the rest of the team, which isn't the idea of the concept at all. It is also not needed as there are plenty of other brilliant options that can be a part of this CAP's trio. The other thing is that the megas that get used are because they are the best in the metagame and buffing their options isn't the idea here either. Buffing a lesser used mega, adds competition in the CAP meta, yes, however this takes away from the mega slot itself I feel.

    A robust modern three Pokemon core needs three key things.
    1. Safety in switching.
    2. Having ways to deal with most top threats.
    3. Aids your wincon / capitalizes on each others faults.

    With a heavy defog meta, spikes gets a bad wrap. This is pretty simple, everyone knows this. Defog is huge, and can be a great equalizer. But I think that the reason this is, is that Bisharp, the best way of disrupting defog, doesn't have very good synergy with the best spikers. For example Klefki and other steels share a Fire and /or Ground weakness. Greninja shares a Fighting weakness, as does Cloyster. Even Fidgit shares a ground weakness. All the Gamefreak spikers also have difficulties with Electric types which is why Rotom-W which would fit awesomely, all the rest have trouble with rocks (Rotom-H, Talonflame, etc.)

    So I'm proposing going with something that fits with Bisharp and any non-descript spiker.
    This, I feel makes a great project for the first CAP of this generation. The biggest problem with the discussion as I've seen it so far is that there is so much discussion being spent on people going, stuff is outclassed, so we're stuck with using a almost broken-mon in the trio. Or we are digging into niches from lower tiers such as regen cores that already have support that works with them or things that are better choices.

    With this suggestion we are working with the premier Pokemon in niches that need a perfect third core Pokemon to allow them to be viable niches.
    This covers the first guiding question. They are the height of their niches, but need help getting to a viable point which they could with a proper support to fit into teams instead of battlers choosing different strategies.
    They don't form effective cores because while all the elements are there the typings aren't synergistic. This can be remedied.
    And the third question is addressed by nothing fitting the third 'core' spot. Currently they require two extra slots to get what they need done, which is unacceptable. And it can detract from wincons which I addressed earlier as an important consideration.

    Now to my other two criteron. Safety in switching, This is the key to needing a perfect third, because this is where the current core falters. Top threats; passive damage can deal with these threats, Bisharp can deal with these Pokemon after residual damage that is would open the way for with a perfect third with it's punishment of Defog. Fits, yeah?

    Probably could have done a bigger post, but I feel that it'd be more waffle that would confuse people. So instead I will put an open invitation to hit me with questions that I will then answer in regards to my sggestion.
  6. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Why these Pokemon: Salamence and Terrakion are SCARY. Historically they have dominated metagames, usually possessing enough brute force to plow through their opponents. Their biggest problem in this generation is that no Pokemon adequately addresses their mutual weakness in Fairy and issues dealing with Aegislash (unSTAB EQ notwithstanding), and lets them unleash their prowess on opponents. They also work well together, as Salamence can take Terrakion's Grass, Ground, Fighting, and Water weaknesses well, and Terrakion can switch in on Rock-type attacks aimed at Salamence and has that vital Stealth Rock resistance.

    What are the possibilities: Salamence and Terrakion are unique in that they are not automatically hyper-offense. Salamence has two abilities - Intimidate and Moxie, which both play very differently. Their defenses, while not massive, stand at 95/80/80 and 91/90/90. Although Close Combat does shred Terrakion's defenses, it usually destroys whatever is in front of it. Both inhabit a very significant speed tier and have multiple threatening sets. Major Third's best use will be to enable these Pokemon to wreak the havoc they are traditionally accustomed to by providing that pivot they need to bring that power to the fore.

    These two Pokemon need very limited support in order to be effective. These two Pokemon have enough bulk and options (Salamence possessing Roost and Wish) to sweep a team sufficiently weakened (or that neutralizes their shared counters, Azumarill being the biggest bugbear) by their Major Third. These two Pokemon also allow is to delve into what makes an offensive core work, and what kind of Pokemon supplements the ability of two Pokemon that have never previously needed assistance to terrify opponents.

    As far as being outclassed, I don't perceive that to be an issue. Salamence and Terrakion are both outstanding sweepers, with Salamence even having powerful special-attacking sets in its arsenal. Even outside of sweeping, Salamence in particular has Recovery and Terrakion gets an Attack Boost for the trouble of switching into Knock-Off. I think one of the reasons Voodoom worked better with Zapdos over Togekiss is that the level of Pokemon that needs assistance was vastly different. Salamence and Terrakion aren't really in "outclassable" territory as much as they are in "alternative Pokemon covers different targets" territory.

    Addendum:

    Keldeo (Rank 31) also works w/ Mence because it faces many of the same problems as Terrakion (Azumarill) and its defensive synergy is better (lol non-Freeze Dry Ice), but unlike Terrakion it's less powerful right off the bat since no perma-rain cut into Hydro Pump (Stone Edge has the same acc without being so weather reliant), and Secret Sword has never been as devastating as Close Combat. I think Keldeo will benefit from the final product, but I think Terrakion is a better Pokemon to assume for the core.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  7. Dragonblaze052

    Dragonblaze052

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    I've been thinking a lot about what toshimelonhead said and I think that the first thing we should think about is what kind of core we want to build before we decide on what specific core to build. It's great to see what some of our options can be, but thusfar the thread has essentially been directionless. If we can decide upon a more focused core concept, then I believe we can better decide upon the Pokemon which we will build the core with.
    TorterraX likes this.
  8. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    I think locking ourselves into a specific type of core this early in the thread is a mistake. I definitely agree with you that right now, people are just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks. Eventually, that needs to change, but right now it's par for the course given that this is like a twice as complicated version of Perfect Mate.

    Do keep in mind that it's important to actually make your core synergize. There are a few suggestions here like Sylveon/Hydreigon (which I'll talk about later in this post) which either make role mistakes (Hydreigon's a special sweeper not a special tank IIRC) or just have two pokemon with no synergy whatsoever like Umbreon/Sableye. I think we're focusing too much (me included) on making a core that's "bad enough to be selected" and not a core that "could work but is overshadowed by Heatran/Venusaur-M and/or needs a third member".

    Here's my thoughts on the cores that have been tossed around so far, other then my Goodra/Gyarados:

    Cores I Like (open)

    Manetric-M/Manaphy/majortriad

    This is one of the stronger offensive cores I've seen so far as both of them would have benefitted immensely from last generation's Drizzle mechanics. I think that other then the Mega thing (which is worrying, as several others have talked about in this thread), we could definitely make this one work and learn a lot from it.
    Only change I would consider is swapping out Manetric for a non-mega electric type; maybe Jolteon?

    Politoed/Manetric-M/majortriad

    I should really be lumping this in with the previous one because they're essentially the same conceept with the role of MajorTriad reversed. Manetric-M+Manaphy most needed a Politoed or reasonable Politoed substitute; Manetric-M+Politoed needs something to hit on the physical side of the spectrum that synergizes with Politoed.

    Terrakion/Salamence/majortriad

    I like this core for our project because it will help us examine the very real fall from grace these two former suspects have experienced. Terrakion was a prominent Gen 5 suspect with two of the best STABs in the game that was almost impossible to switch into. Fairy types? BL. Salamence was actually banned in Gen 4 for being too versatile and having counters that weren't really viable in OU. Gen 6? Low OU, and generally passed over in favor of other dragons like Multiscale Dragonite. They have solid offensive synergy together but need some way to beat Fairies, which will have to come from a third member.

    Whimsicott/Tentacruel/majortriad

    This is an interesting one. Where the other cores so far have been offensive or defensive, this core seems to be a support core. Whimsicott's main draw is its unique Grass/Fairy typing and its powerful support movepool backed by Prankster. On the other hand, Tentacruel has great bulk, an immunity to Whimsicott's 4x weakness (Poison), and the ability to clear and set hazards for the pair. MajorThird would need to provide offensive punch to the trio; Whimsicott's offensive stats are a joke and Tentacruel's options are limited to spamming Scald. Physical bulk to go along with Tentacruel's special bulk would also be a significant plus.

    Heracross-M/Magnezone/majortriad

    I'm putting this core in the Like list, even though I'm about to suggest a major change to it, because I think that EyeDentist had the right idea with Heracross but chose the wrong pokemon to accompany it. Heracross-M just hits like a truck and eats substitutes for breakfast, but is just *that* much too slow to accomplish its goal and is stopped in its tracks by Aegislash, Skarmory, and Landorus-T (and easily revenge killed by Talonflame or Pinsir-M). Choosing Magnezone as a first partner allows you to trap enemy Steels, which is a good idea...but Magnezone can't come in on Aegislash (the pokemon that most needs to be removed!) and only exacerbates the weakness to Landorus.

    I think this core has definite potential, but it would be better if it was Heracross-M/Keldeo/majortriad. Keldeo easily forces out Landorus-T and turns Skarmory into setup bait, but still struggles with Aegislash. This pair needs a way to reliably remove Aegislash and Azumarill (who can come in on either member's Fighting type attack and deal serious damage with Play Rough). That, I think, is much more practiceable.

    Cores I think need work (open)

    Sylveon/Hydreigon/majortriad

    Not satisfied with this one because they don't have visible synergy to me. Maybe I'm not seeing it but I think Hydreigon, defensively, doesn't do much for Sylveon; it's neutral to both Steel and Poison. On the other side of the spectrum, Hydreigon is an offensive mon, but Sylveon doesn't do much to help it break through its counters.

    Ampharos-M/Bronzong/majortriad

    God, I love Mega Amphy to death. I don't really like this core for it, though, because other then switching in with Levitate active Bronzong does nothing for this core that Klefki couldn't do better. And it also has the problem of using a Mega, although that isn't as big a problem for me as it was for others.

    Chestnaught/Charizard-MX/majortriad

    This is a cool combination that takes a top tier UU mon and a top tier OU mon and pairs them together. Its' major flaw, of course, is that we're using Charizard (whose main set is Dragon Dance IIRC), when there are so many better bulky status spreaders out there like Jellicent (Recover/WoW/Scald). I'd like more explanation on why Charizard is the best choice for this one.

    Gardevoir/Latias/MajorTriad

    I'm not a fan of this one. Sure, they do have counters in common, and they both seem to have been overlooked in OU (although Gardevoir got a massive step up from its life in RU/NU last gen). But the reason they share counters is because they're as close to "identical twins" as you're going to get in Pokemon. They both have similar strengths in stats (both have above average special attack and defense) and both are prominent Calm Mind boosters. I think that this is more like an Onslaught core...which is better done by a lot of other pokemon.

    Umbreon/Sableye/MajorTriad

    These two don't have much obvious synergy to me. Besides sharing a weakness to Fairy (and Sableye not covering for Umbreon's Bug weakness well), Umbreon is just a meatwall/last pokemon Curser while Sableye is a Prankster abuser. I think these pokemon are just a little too weak (why use Umbreon as a wall when you could use Mandibuzz? Why use it as a last pokemon Curser when you could use Snorlax?

    Amoongus/Slowbro/MajorTriad

    I'm not a fan of this either, but for a different reason then the others in this section. This concept's already done in OU by Venusaur-M/Heatran/Slowbro-in fact I'd even go so far as to say that Venusaur just straight up outclasses Amoongus. I'm afraid this pairing would devolve into "make Heatran 2.0" which isn't very interesting to me.

    Galvantula/Magnezone/MajorTriad

    I tend to lump this in with the Gardevoir/Latias example above. They're both Electric type special attackers; the only difference between them, really, is secondary typing and Galvantula's Sticky Web vs. Magnezone's bulk. I feel this concept locks in too much CAP18's identity beforehand-our Major Triad would have to be a bulky physical attacker with some way to hit Ground types for super effective damage. Since Galvantula and Magnezone are also both weak to Fire, that means we're looking for a Water type or Ice type.

    Snorlax/Trevenant/MajorTriad

    I love anything that tries to use Snorlax, but this is not that great a core for him. Snorlax's Normal STAB isn't as good as it used to be thanks to the abundance of top tier pokemon who resist it and the huge number of pokemon who can hand him a burn for his trouble. Aegislash can come in on a predicted Return or Power-Up Punch and deal massive damage with Sacred Sword or set up boosts of his own, and Trevenant's weakness to the sword isn't helping.


    Will finish these lists later, have to go somewhere right now.

    petition to rename this concept (open)

    I am a musician and this concept's name is bothering me (even though it's a great concept-props to dummy007) because a Major Third is a two note harmony consisting of a root note and a note one third up played together. If we're talking about three pokemon/notes, we'd be talking about a Major Triad.

    Please save me from the agony of reading the wrong musical terminology for the next however long this CAP goes on.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  9. Dragonblaze052

    Dragonblaze052

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    Well I'm not intending to have us lock in to a specific core type, just to have us focus our thoughts a bit so we can better harmonize our designs.
  10. FierceDeity1

    FierceDeity1

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    Thanks for the feedback, shinyskarmory. I actually agree that there isnt a lot of synergy between Sylveon and Hydreigon, as I initially thought the concept called for creating synergy between the two. And I support Major Triad.

    As far as types of cores, I would say we should go for the offense/defense core spelled out earlier or a bulky offensive core. I say this because in my experience (which isn't much) most cores are either fully offensive or defensive.
  11. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    [​IMG]

    I'm feeling a little more inspired, so I wanna talk about this playa right here: Tornadus-T. It was straight up banned to Ubers last generation shortly after its release. It defined Hurricane spam and played an important role in many momentum-toutin' cores thanks to U-turn, Ground-type immunity, and Regenerator. Where is it at now? #121 in OU and #85 in OU 1760 stats, pitiful. The obvious drop here is due to Rain not playing as crucial of a role in Gen6; it's no longer free to spam Choice Specs Hurricane to OHKO the majority of the metagame. But with great offensive coverage, one of the best STABs in the game, good typing, phenomenal speed, and some enticing momentum options, I feel that Tornadus-T would make a good start to an offensive core. Ultimately, all it needs is a quick patch (accuracy help) to make it a monster once again.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    So what do we core it with? This is where I've been struggling. We know that Torn-T is a monster given Rain, so Politoed is the knee-jerk reaction. Its Hydro Pump is still as powerful as ever, and its bulky and good typing grant itself to an acceptable core. Weather wars aren't as dominant this generation, so hopefully it won't need to square off 1vs1 against Charizard-Y and Mega Tyranitar too often. In a similar vein, we can go for Kingdra, which can set up rain and abuse it much better than Politoed. It has a better defensive typing and can do some serious damage to the likes of Aegislash and Scizor while outpacing Greninja after one turn of set up. This is probably my favorite option thus far, but I'm not sold on the viability of Rain Dance just yet. Keldeo would probably be considered the middling option of the three. Going for a rain-based core is solid because we already know that they work well. We experienced an entire generation of them, and having a single consistent variable when creating a Pokemon is a good starting point.

    Alternatively, we can assign the above aspects to our Major Third and concentrate on Pokemon that work well with Tornadus-T outside of rain. Electric-types are great partners for Torn-T; they cover up the Electric-type weakness while often completing a VoltTurn core. I listed Raikou specifically because its got a great mix of speed and bulk. Zapdos and Mega Manetric could also be seen here. The issue I take with these Pokemon is that many of them are inferior to Thundurus at the end of the day. We'd likely see a Voodom-esque pitfall where we've made a Pokemon that cores well with an already-existing metagame staple.

    Ground-types also pair well for removing the Electric-type weakness while being to take on top threats like Aegislash, Charizard-Y, and Tyranitar. Hippowdon is an odd choice, but I feel that it could pair well due to its awesome bulk and survivability. It plays with residual damage + hazards, which is a big help for handling Greninja. Tornadus-T doesn't overly mind Sand Stream and can handle Mega-Venusaur in return. Diggersby sort of fits the same mold, but we'd be forced to run a U-turn Choice Scarf set, which arguably isn't as effective against Aegislash and Mega Pinsir as Hippowdon. Excadrill get special mention for bringing hazard removal and great offensive STABs to the table.


    If you haven't been able to tell, I'm interested in making a core based on Pokemon that already have worth in Overused. In the end, if we build a core that needs CAP18 to fend off Talonflame, Aegislash, or some other top threat, our Pokemon will be better outside of a core. We should be looking for Pokemon that already handle the majority of the metagame (offensively and defensively). Once we've established those, we can shift towards addressing that core's problems by creating a Pokemon to patch the holes.
    ryby, TheMetaPhoenix and Kappaten like this.
  12. Albacore

    Albacore

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    I'm not sure if these two can form an effective core at all, but I'm willing to suggest them :

    [​IMG] # 49

    [​IMG] # 57


    Volcarona can potentially be a very dangerous Quiver Dance sweeper, so much so that some people were calling for its ban from the BW OU tier. But you don't have to look very far to spot Volcarona's biggest problem : its horrendous defensive typing, which removes 50% of its health every time it switches in if Stealth Rock is on the field. Another big flaw with Volcarona is its complete inability to touch Fire-types and Dragon-types, and also has problems with Water-types. These problems are, for the most part, solved by the fastest Rapid Spinner in the metagame and recent OU drop, Starmie. Starmie's main goal is to spin away rocks as fast as it possibly can in order to give Volcarona the ability to sweep unhindered. It can also threaten Fire-types with Hydro Pump and Dragon-types with Ice Beam. Starmie can potentially threaten other Water-types with Thunderbolt, as well as switch into Water-type moves destined for Volcarona, which can in return take Bug and Grass-type moves aimed towards Starmie. They also both have access to reliable recovery, which extends their durability.

    The main problem with this core is its lack of defensive synergy. Notably, Starmie cannot take Rock and Flying-type hits all that well. And Starmie's Psychic-typing really does not help its case. Another Problem is Starmie's lack of power. 100 base SpA is not all that great, especially considering how commonly Assault Vest is used. Neither of them fare well against physical attackers, particularly Tyranitar, which can take 2 Super-Effective hits from both of them and OHKO back, and Talonflame. Speaking of Talonflame, both Pokemon really hate the omnipresence of priority in OU, since they have no priority themselves, and rely on their Speed to be effective. Essentially, Starmie helps Volcarona, but Volcarona cannot help Starmie in return.

    What this core would love is a good physically defensive pivot that doesn't really care about priority. It would need to focus on supporting Starmie, and would be bulky enough to shrug off most forms of priority like they were nothing. It may also be able to set up Stealth Rocks, in order to help with Volcarona's sweep. I'm thinking of something like Mega-Aggron or Tyranitar, but without the Ground weakness that the rest of the core can do little about. It could also be a fast, offensive pivot, with resistances to types Dark, Bug and Flying which hurt the core, as well as strong priority to outspeed other priority. The core already resits Fighting, Steel and Ice, so weaknesses to this type would make the Pokemon more appropriate for supporting these two.
    Shiruba likes this.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Pokemon such as Dragonite and Manaphy shouldn't really be brought up for discussion, as they are all either very common or already excellent Pokemon in OU that take part in multiple effective cores. Here is my suggestion:

    Pokemon: Zygarde (#153 with 0.30446% usage in the 1760 stats) and Klefki (#51 with 3.22137% usage in the 1760 stats)


    [​IMG] + [​IMG]


    1. Why are these two Pokemon are viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?

    SubCoil Zygarde is a unique and very effective bulky sweeper. Both its physical and special bulk is greater than Hippowdon's, one of the best mixed walls in OU, which when coupled with Coil and decent Speed, let it set up a Sub in front of Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Heatran, and Mega Venusaur, and start boosting. After a single Coil, the only ways to stop it are either via Skarmory, Sylveon, Unaware Clefable, Mega Gardevoir, SubDisable Gengar, Togekiss, and Pokemon with special Ice attacks that can take a couple of Earthquake or Dragon Tail hits, such as Thundurus and Slowbro. Sadly, many of those Pokemon are quite common, which means that even though Zygarde gets many set up chances, it needs a lot of support to sweep against teams with those Pokemon, and often fails to do so. Also, if Zygarde isn't setting up to sweep, it's not really useful, unlike other set up sweepers, such as Bulk Up Talonflame, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Swords Dance + Stealth Rock Garchomp, and Swords Dance Bisharp, which are very useful even without setting up, thanks to their ability to check a multitude of offensive Pokemon. So, the problem with Zygarde is that it's a really hit or miss Pokemon. If the opposing team lacks one of the Pokemon able to deal with it, Zygarde can easily go 6-0, but if not, Zygarde often ends up being dead weight.

    As for Klefki, beautiful defensive typing, decent bulk, and Prankster Spikes, screens, and Thunder Wave are its selling points. It is the best at what it does, but unfortunately, what it does can be stopped quite easily, as Thunder Wave is very easy to absorb with Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Thundurus, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, and Garchomp, while Spikes and screens are relatively easy to get rid of with Defog or Rapid Spin from Excadrill.

    2. Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?

    Basically, Klefki supports Zygarde, while Zygarde can use some of the Pokemon that Klefki attracts as set up bait (Heatran, Landorus-T, Rotom-W). Klefki can support Zygarde in multiple ways. It can set up Spikes so that Zygarde can start wearing down the opposing team much faster with Dragon Tail. It can set up screens so that Zygarde can set up on against a ridiculous amount of Pokemon, and make it able to take on even some of its biggest checks, such as Hidden Power Ice Thundurus or Mega Gardevoir. It can spread paralysis, so that Zygarde can set up a Sub much easier and outspeeds Pokemon that would otherwise OHKO it. And finally, it can switch into many of the Pokemon that threaten Zygarde, such as Sylveon, Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem-B, Latios, and Latias, and start setting up.

    The third Pokemon of this core should be able to handle some of the threats that those two can't, such as Slowbro, Thundurus, Mamoswine, CM Unaware Clefable, and Skarmory. It should also be able to make Klefki's support stronger in some way, so that the opponent can't just get rid of the screens and Spikes in one turn and thus easily shut Klefki down. Obviously, to check those specific Pokemon, we would require a certain typing, stats, and movepool, that we will find in the process, but it's not a hard thing at all to do. The challenging part is how to strengthen the support of Klefki, so that Klefki doesn't end up as dead weight. There are various ways we could do this. We could make a Pokemon able to trap some common Defog users. We could make a Pokemon with Defiant, Competitive, or set up moves, that is able to take advantage of common Defog users. We could make a Pokemon with Taunt, so that after Klefki paralyzes the Defog users, they will have a chance to get paralyzed as it comes in and will then be able to use Taunt and keep the hazards or screens intact. We could make a Pokemon that would give to Klefki the tools to outlast some common Defog users, either by crippling them or by prolonging Klefki's lifespan (Wish, WoW, Toxic, etc). All in all, there are many ways to go with how we make this Pokemon, and discussion with lots of options is always interesting and sparks a lot of debate, hopefully good.

    3. Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon.

    Because as i already said, both Klefki and Zygarde are really unique in what they do. Zygarde is the only sweeper in OU able to shuffle teams around for such a long time, while being extremely difficult to take down except from a few Pokemon that might not even manage to switch in fast enough, thanks to Dragon Tail sending in a random Pokemon each time and dealing a respectable amount of damage after a couple of boosts. Combine this with Spikes support from Klefki, and the damage adds up pretty fast. Klefki is also pretty unique, as it's undeniably the best Prankster screens user, and the only Prankster Spikes user, while the only other Pokemon in OU with Klefki's typing, Mega Mawile, takes a completely different role than Klefki. So, even if the CAP we make ends up taking part in other cores with Pokemon that are overall more effective than Zygarde and Klefki, which is inevitable if you ask me (there is no chance we will make a usable Pokemon in OU that only benefits Klefki and Zygarde), no other three-Pokemon core would be able to do what those three will be able to do, and if we build the CAP right, the strategy that those three will be able pull off could be very good and unique, and often worth using that three Pokemon core for.


    Also, to the people that don't like Klefki, don't worry, as the focus of this core is Zygarde. There are many other Pokemon that could fit well with Zyagrde, i just picked Klefki because it's the only viable underused Steel-type in OU, and Steel-types work well with Zygarde. So, i would like to see more cores featuring Zygarde, as it is a very unique sweeper that could work wonders with the right support, and because it is so unique, it would still be worth using over other physical sweepers, as nothing else can D-Tail shuffle while raising his power and bulk.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  14. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    I'm seeing a lot more cool stuff (that Klefki + Zygarde core looks great, and I would love to do something with Tornadus-T). This is starting to look really good!

    I have an idea that I'm working on, just as a general core structure: Sweeper / Wallbreaker / Pivot. I think this would be really interesting to do because we could tailor this core specifically so the wallbreaker and pivot can each switch in on some of the sweeper's threats and gain momentum or straight up kill them. In this structure I think it would be easier to design the core so that the pokemon would not be particularly strong on their own but would thrive as a combination.
    No idea what specific pokemon to use, just throwing that out there.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  15. Rotosect

    Rotosect Banned deucer.

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    I'm going to propose Kyurem-Black and Magnezone
    1. Why are these two Pokemon viable OU threats that are not seeing enough usage?
    Among the many pokemon who didn't deserve to fall in UU, Kyurem-Black is easily the one who left most players appalled. Even though now it's back in OU with the new 1760 system, its usage is still rather low for something so powerful. There are two factors that discourage players from using Kyurem-B: its speed and its defensive type. 95 base speed is enough to outpace any significant defensive pokemon in OU, but it's not enough to outrun most offensive threats, hence most of Kyurem-B's sets focus on wallbreaking rather than sweeping.
    Dragon/Ice contrarily to popular belief is not an awful defensive type, given its key resistances and neutrality to ice, something most dragons would kill for, yet its weaknesses are easily abusable in this metagame. The improved Defog and the decline of fighting types lessened the impact of its two worst weaknesses, but on the other hand the new Fairy weakness is definitely not welcome and steel types are now more popular than ever.

    Magnezone now finds itself in UU and I can't honestly understand why. While it's true that OU's #1 steel type, Aegislash, can't be trapped, its niche is still important as ever given the increase of steel types as a consequence of the introduction of the fairy type. It posseses decent bulk, many resistances, high special attack and a decent enough movepool to do its job as a steel-killer, but it's slow and its weaknesses are easily exploitable.

    2. Why do these Pokemon not form an effective core right now? If they do, what can a third Pokemon do that improves that core significantly?
    Kyurem-B and Magnezone might as well be the poster kids of the notorious "DragMag" strategy. Magnezone gets rid of the annoying Scizors, Sylveons, Clefables and Ferrothorns, while Kyu-B breaks the rest of the tier in half. Sounds great in theory, but in practice there is something that holds this core back: as you can guess, it's the lack of speed and vulnerability to revenge-killing.

    3. Why will this third Pokemon form a great core with those two Pokemon more so than any other OU Pokemon?
    A sweeper who doesn't mind priority in general. It doesn't have to be a dragon, just a pokemon who can appreciate the removal of the slow, bulky pokemon Kyu-B and Magnezone can handle, including but not limited to: Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Chansey, Sylveon, Scizor, Ferrothorn and Jellicent.
    If possible, it should help mitigate Kyu-B's and Magnzeone's major weaknesses (SR and fire types). There is lots of room for creativity here as long as it doesn't compound the core's weaknesses.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  16. HeaLnDeaL

    HeaLnDeaL
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    Overall, I like the prospects that Tornadus-T brings to the table very much. It's a Pokemon that has proven its viability in the past, and I think it has the potential to get in back with the help of this new coming CAP.

    As Birkal mentioned, though, "accuracy help" would be something Tornadus-T would need to have. While these are certainly some interesting options that can help with improving the accuracy of hurricane, I think the only true viable way of this would be to work alongside rain. In this respect, I think the other partners need to have high rain viability and to some degree the ability to check other weathers. Sure, weather stand offs aren't as common this generation, but as a concept for CAP, we're working with a core of three; if that core can't synergize under the rain and can't deal with other weathers, then I don't see how it will particularly work.

    In this respect, of the options Birkal listed, I support Kingdra and Raikou the most. The former can set up the rain and immediately abuse it; the ability to set up with rain dance also gives it the option to turn the tides after drought and sandstream have taken effect. Kingdra in the rain is a terrifying foe, but admittedly setting up that rain and simultaneously allowing teammates to abuse it can be troublesome. Raikou also has some interesting tools to be a part of a new core, too. Via its fourth gen event, it received a pretty cool weather option in weather ball, and despite having to be rash and lose speed, he also gained a bit of it "back" via extremespeed. Now, I'm not going to say event Raikou is definitely the most viable, but with weather ball, he becomes passable as a sun team checker, as he can use STAB to defeat Charizard Y and fire-type weather ball to take on the supporting grass types. Within the rain, any form of Raikou that uses thunder can also become quite threatening. Overall, I think Raikou's ability to run different sets would to some degree help the core of three out in terms of versatility. On the negative side of things, however, both Raikou and Torndaus-T are weak to opposing sides of the edge-quake combo. With that, Raikou is a Pokemon that has fallen from grace probably even moreso than Tornadus-T... while it may be cool to bring both back, we have to analyze why they fell in the first place and make sure the new core member can help them out well enough so that their weaknesses don't show; this could pretty much be said for any 2/3rds of the core this CAP aims to complement. If we're dealing with Pokemon that have fallen from grace, it should be pretty obvious that the reasons why they fell should be fully explored.


    All in all, I wouldn't mind Tornadus-T being part of the core that this concept aims to make. However, in terms of viability, I think this potential core would definitely
    be pushed in the direction of rain. There's really no other way to make Hurricane devastating, and without Hurricane, Tornadus-T loses a lot of his usefulness. I remember last gen there was a lot of hate on rain teams (and weather in general), and bringing rain back in some form or another with a Tornadus-T core would be an interesting turn for the first CAP of gen six... But perhaps, in part because of this, I also am not going to sit here over in Tornadus-T camp indefinitely for the rest of this discussion. Overall, of the options listed so far, Tornadus-T in a core is the idea that interests me the most so far, but we'll see how it goes.
    Dragonblaze052 likes this.
  17. Lilfut

    Lilfut

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    I see a lot of people suggesting cores that are already a thing without a third. Isn't the point here to make a new core, not just improve an existing one?
  18. Ununhexium

    Ununhexium

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    Thats what I thought. I thought the idea was to create a sort of crappy core and then to add a "glue" pokemon that turned it into one of the most threatening. It seems like people are just trying to give a buff to a preexisting core.
  19. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    The idea is to take an existing two-pokemon core that works together well but has serious issues, and introduce a third member that negates those issues. For example, Slowbro + Amoongus are decent right now, but get ripped apart by both Mega Charizards and anything with Knock Off, so our Major Third would ideally handle those.

    A "crappy" core would most likely have such serious issues that we could only make it usable with an extremely powerful Major Third that would be used everywhere, not just in our core.
  20. Ununhexium

    Ununhexium

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    ill give you "crappy" was a bad choice of words. but, it does only say that we need to use two lesser used pokemon. it didnt specifically say it had to be a core already.
  21. 99_Problems

    99_Problems

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    I like the Goodra + Gyarados, Amoongbro, and Tornadus-T ideas because they place emphasis on building around the specific unique qualities of those mons. Emphasizing those strengths will increase the likelihood of the core "sticking," that is not letting one member easily be replaced by a similar mon due to the rarity/uniqueness of their typing/abilities/etc. That being said, I do like the idea of using Hydreigon in a core as it has a lot of potential with the right team support.

    I also somewhat agree with toshimelon in that an offensive/defensive or defensive/defensive base will be the best model to go with as it allows for a lot more flexibility in future discussions.
    Dragonblaze052 likes this.
  22. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    So I'm getting a slight sense of déjà vu

    Before anything else, because I'm lazy I'd like to re-post part of one of the posts that I made in Voodoom's concept assessment - it's somewhat dated but provides a reasonable segue from the concept to its assessment, as it were:

    Now, bear in mind that "Major Third" is not the same concept as "Perfect Mate". For the latter, I made it clear that in a literal reading of the Perfect Mate concept, we would want something that did absolutely everything it was possible to do in order to support its partner, in a defensive, offensive, and indeed support role, and that these roles were interchangeable, as was the case in celebrated cores of the day such as CelebixHeatran. Now, this concept is, naturally, somewhat different, in that there is no stipulation that the core should cover every facet of what a core should be, and indeed, such a thing could well be detrimental to the core's performance in the metagame. We could easily have a wholly defensive or offensive core at this point, that much is not in contention. Even so, I can't help but feel that it would be nice if, yes, we actually did decide what we want out of the concept before we start submitting individual Pokemon couples for consideration. This is exactly what happened with Voodoom - we didn't really make it absolutely clear what we wanted the core to accomplish, and ended up with Togekiss, because everyone was more concerned with pushing the Pokemon, such that the concept became secondary. I made this point in the CAPcast and I'll reiterate it here - suggesting Pokemon before we have an idea of how we want to interpret it is what happened last time and we should have remembered these lessons in going forward. I don't see the lessons learned there being reflected in this concept discussion and that worries me. I don't want to belabour the point so I'll stop here, but again, a framework for approaching the problem is more important than "cool core ideas" at this time. We should be analysing the Pokemon at least partially before we pick it, not the other way around.

    Having said all that, some of the core ideas from the above post can, I feel, be brought forward. The relationship has to be reciprocal - one Pokemon setting up Spikes and another dual screens for another to sweep does not constitute a core. Ideally this core should be capable of switching into one anothers' checks and counters with relative comfort, and be able to do the same repeatedly throughout the match. If we take the idea a step further, or turn the active element around, then ideally the individual members of the core should attract, or be most susceptible to, those Pokemon that the other members of the core are best equipped to deal with. To take an example completely at random, Mega Gyarados struggles most with a Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, which it simply does not have the tools to overcome (I mean there's Bounce yes but I'm pretty sure that's not common), which can be solved through something like Kyurem-B with Substitute (I'm basically thinking off the top of my head here). I guess this would also help with Rotom-W or Mandibuzz or whatever else I'm thinking of that Kyurem-B beats that Gyarados does not, but that's not particularly relevant. In this case, the trouble is a couple of things - both have problems with entry hazards and both are dicked over by Fairies (Gyara to a lesser extent but the problem with this is coming up). Easy to solve, then - a Defogger with some typing that lets it take on Fairies and probably some fast Choice Scarf users like Latios and Garchomp. But the point here is that this does not make a good core. Gyarados does basically nothing for Kyurem-B - it can't switch into Fairies, it can't really switch into revenge killers like the aforementioned Latios and Garchomp, and depending on whether it has already Mega Evolved or not its shared weaknesses change. It can't switch into Mega Scizor either. In this case Kyurem-B is simply acting as a wallbreaker or generic teammate for Gyarados. They aren't a core - they aren't alternating or demonstrating an ability to control the battle by their ability to cover the others' weaknesses.

    Certainly, you may disagree with this definition of a core, and that's fine. But from what we've learned in the past, and it's hard to not bring up the ultimately successful example of Voodoom here, the stricter definition of a core is a far more interesting thing to investigate and create than simply a "strong teammate" that provides the necessary support. If we are going to do this concept, then it is well worth our while to do this well. A lot of the proposed 2/3 cores I've seen so far, such as the Mega ManectricxManaphy and... well, the Mega Manectric ones in general (I'm not sure Mega Manectric can actually switch into any Water-types safely, bar maybe Gyarados given Intimidate). Mega Manectric does honestly seem to me to be this generation's Weavile as far as the similar CAP concepts are concerned, but since I'm really not concerned with individual cores suggested at the moment I don't want to say anything else on the matter. I'm sure the CAP community can make up their own mind in that regard.

    This fits somewhat with what I /think/ Birkal was proposing, wherein core members possess the ability to snatch momentum back from those Pokemon that are most likely to be able to take it from specifically those Pokemon that we have designated as their core partners. I somewhat disagree with him that moves such as Volt Switch and U-turn are necessary or even desirable in this case since we already know how Volt-turn and similar strategies can conspire to put a team in a good position, but we know a lot less, and I'm therefore much more enthused, about "traditional" cores that purely work from resistances and immunities to keep the ball, to overuse a tired sporting analogy, firmly in the opponent's half of the pitch. "Snagging momentum" by just flipping from one to the other is all very well but part of a core's innate advantage compared to, say, sticking 6 offensive Pokemon on a team and having done with it is that there is an element of certainty even within uncertain situations. For example, if a Scizor were to switch into one's Sylveon, you could be fairly certain that having a Heatran waiting in the wings would be an altogether reasonable course of action to take under the circumstances. Volt Switch and U-turn undercut this to an extent by removing probability from the equation, such that free switches are possible and all of a sudden resistances and immunities suddenly have their value diminished. Consequently, we end up seeing the value of the core itself diminishing as well. Since part of the actual "Questions to be Answered" bit of the concept specified synergy as opposed to pure momentum control in the vein of Volt-turn, I cannot help but think that the presence of Volt-turn in said core is counterproductive, or at the very least distracting. That said, I do think Tornadus-T is a good Pokemon to be thinking about, U-turn notwithstanding, but at the same time I caution any sort of over-reliance on scouting moves as being the foundation upon which to build a core.

    What else is there to say? Well, I've given my remonstrations on the subject of how we should be approaching this question and how we have already begun to approach this question, so I suppose the natural next step would be for me to provide an example, or something. For Voodoom I went through just about every Pokemon in OU and judged them by how well they would work for this concept, which is not possible in this generation and also I think an exceptionally bad idea given the colossal pool of potential that many Pokemon hovering around the low OU area or even below that currently possess. For that reason, I don't have a bunch of proposals for Pokemon that would make good core candidates. There are a few other reasons for this, but suffice to say for now that I think the criteria I laid out above give quite enough room for quite a few reasonable candidates. Part of the difficulty with selecting Pokemon, which wasn't really present with Voodoom, is that the Pokemon that we choose have to have some synergy but not complete synergy, such that a third party is considered necessary. To pull an example from DPP UU, Claydol and Registeel worked pretty well as a defensive core (resisting or immune to 15 types between them) while the two types that weren't covered, Fire and Water, could be patched up reasonably well by Milotic. Another example of this would be the post-Salamence ban dominance of Fire-Water-Grass cores in OU. In this case, then, I feel that a good start is simply a Pokemon with plenty of resistances as well as weaknesses, or alternatively one that simply has a large number of well-defined Pokemon that it can comprehensively beat.

    Even so, that's not to say that new ideas are not something that really is more than worth our time to explore. I'm not even talking about things like purely offensive Triple-Dragon-style cores that could theoretically be produced under the framework of this concept, which stipulate no defensive synergy at all but simply overwhelming offensive overlap. There are new ideas that could be particularly worth our while to explore - we have had hazard stacker + spinblocker pseudo-cores before (though not in any meaningful way), but now we have the chance to make some sort of core that could revolve around one of the core members being a response to particular Defog users that that hazard stacker cannot handle. We could, as Birkal perhaps cryptically suggested, have a triad of Volt-turn scouts, or something that does not exist yet, like a triple core of status spreaders where each can deal with a different kind of threat. I am perhaps asserting rather a broad stream of possibilities without giving evidence that any can be accomplished, yet when I consider the range of possibilities that surely must be open when the CAP community sets its mind to it, it almost seems a shame to try for a generic defensive, offensive, or balanced core when there are so many baubles that can be added or experiments that can be tried with the basic conceit.

    One final thing I'd like to address before I go is the note that we will be using "1760 stats" to determine what is lesser-used OU. This strikes me as somewhat odd, not because it seems to be a needless specification (most of the stuff suggested would qualify on either count) but also because it seems to be the wrong specification. The metagame we're building CAP18 for is the post-Genesect/Lucarionite metagame (correct me if I'm wrong) which means that the 1760 stats for February are skewed towards the time before the ban that took place about halfway through that month (iirc). By that token, we should be using the Suspect metagame stats (1760 or otherwise) to determine what is "lesser-used OU". Now, this is a smaller sample size, of course, and has no bearing on tiering, and seems like a needlessly pedantic thing to bring up, but it's something that is, again, worth mentioning.

    Lastly, I want everyone to please read everything that I've written above, not only because I've tried to apply the best of what I can remember of an old experience to a new concept and a new generation, and I think that what I've put down is worth thinking about, but also because you won't have to sit through any more of them for the rest of CAP18. I should like to say my au revoirs and good lucks, at least for the present; I mentioned to some people on IRC that I would be working throughout the currently scheduled time for CAP18 and wouldn't be around for just about all of it, but I stuck around for just about long enough to make this post in hopes that it might have a little bit of a good influence going forwards. I'll still be popping in on IRC for the next two months every once in a while, and I'll get the PRC stuff done by the end of the week (hopefully), but I probably won't have time to follow the process threads, or at least very closely. So, toodle pip, and the very best of luck to all of you.

    Pwnemon gets the most likes in the thread just by quoting me smh
  23. ParadOxymoron

    ParadOxymoron

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    [​IMG] + [​IMG]
    While I hesitate to throw support behind an idea that's not my own, I'd just like to say that it seems like you're right on the money here. In my OU team I like using Ferrothorn and Milotic to do exactly what you're talking about (with Espeon for Magic Bounce and Screen Support) and I can tell you it's a blast to play, but reading this post makes me think that the way you're going about it might be more effective. Anyway, hazards + Dragon Tail is a playstyle I'd very much like to support, and I think that following this option wold make for a very interesting Pokémon.

    Also, thank you bugmaniacbob for your post. I actually read the whole thing! I disagree with the idea that a simple offensive, defensive, or especially balanced core would be a waste of this CAP, and currently I think that "throwing stuff to the wall and seeing what sticks" (as someone else described it) is actually a much more concrete way of going about things that abstractly debating what kind of core would be interesting to create. Ideally, the final poll will have options for all types of cores, so if you're hoping for something special, I think the best way to let that happen is to just let people do what their doing. But that said, I haven't been here since Kitsunoh (I took a hiatus from Pokémon for the majority of Gen 5), so you probably know more about this than I do.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  24. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Going to throw a few bits in, though not as much as bmb - on a few core ideas.

    1. Replication of common cores.

    This mostly applies to the consistently solid F/W/G Cores, which, for the unfamiliar, stands for "Fire / Water / Grass," as the three starter types tend to cover each other's weaknesses and offer a decent array of super-effective hits.

    If you realize your core has two of these three, ask yourself if an existing Pokemon of the third type can complete it competently, and then why or why not. Amoonguss + Slowbro for example has ZardX / ZardY, Heatran, Volcarona, and Talonflame as theoretically viable partners. Fleshing out how this niche needs to be filled will be important, or even if the metagame requires rethinking away from this classic core combination.

    2. Support is ubiquitous.

    My issue with support cores is that, usually, support comes in the form of a move, not a Pokemon. Maybe this is my personal bias against Klefki, but once Klefki fires off a Thunder Wave or sets up Spikes, it's dead weight. I also don't want to get into the idea of making SwagPlay a core. If you have to pray for Foul Play + Confusion to avoid Excadrill OHKOing you with EQ before it spins, you may want to reconsider. In general I'd like to see an explanation of what superior value Prankster adds to Klefki + Zygarde that say, Ferrothorn or Deoxys-D - which also have Thunder Wave and Spikes, and can actually tank hits - do not.

    3. Power is a factor.

    This is what we learned from Voodoom pairing up better with Zapdos than Togekiss. I know the OP went over this and Pwnemon made reference to it, but there is a reason this kind of concept asks of the partnering Pokemon can be outclassed. Just to use my own example, Salamence and Dragonite have a significant amount of role overlap due to their typing and some elements of their stats. Dragonite's Multiscale is a huge benefit, but once it's broken, Salamence can take physical hits better when it switches in on Intimidate. Salamence's attacks generally get fired off with higher damage, and Salamence has a better speed tier for Dragon Dance, and is generally fast enough for Choice Scarf where Dragonite has to stretch a little. To go even a little farther, Noivern is much faster than Salamence, significantly so, but it sacrifices a huge amount of breaking power. Noivern doesn't even learn Fire Blast and has to make do with Flamethrower. The Latis are also somewhat comparable because they cover similar weaknesses for Terrakion, but lack Intimidate, and Latios' Dragon Dance set leaves a lot to be desired power-wise compared to Salamence.

    Compare that to Togekiss/Zapdos in Gen IV, where Zapdos had a better offensive and defensive typing, a stronger Special Attack, better Speed, and, as it turned out, the same sort of demand for a Pokemon that could pass it a Substitute (or a Bulk Up, even) and ward off Rock, Electric, and Ice types. Zapdos also worked out better because like Togekiss, it too could Baton Pass, meaning it could go back and forth and even give Voodoom an Agility.

    4. Don't overcomplicate it.

    There is nothing particularly wrong with saying "these two Pokemon are awesome and synergize fairly well, but have this glaring common weakness that holds them back that the CAP should address." To use a different concept example, "Sketch Artist" was pretty clear. Find a way to build a Pokemon that used Sketch once without allowing it to run roughshod over everything else. Cores should have a very specific goal, whether it is setting up and keeping up hazards, weakening the counters of your two synergistic sweepers, or building a bulky core with recovery that can win through attrition and smart play. Cores do not need to address all Pokemon everywhere, they just need to be able to consistently set up the core's intended strategy effectively in most situations. We're talking about 3 Pokemon Cores - there are still 3 other Pokemon on the team to handle any remaining potential problems.
    Dragonblaze052 and Karoshi like this.
  25. MudcrabDL

    MudcrabDL

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
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    Having looked at the most common pokemon in OU, I'm of the opinion that there are 5 types that absolutely need to be dealt with well in order to form an effective defensive core: Fire, Water, Ghost, Dark and Flying. A large amount of top tier pokemon rely on these to deal damage. As such, my thought is that Goodra and Quagsire would form the basis of a very effective core, being two surprisingly anti meta pokemon.

    Why? : Goodra has always been interesting. Much like Tyranitar, he functions as a Special tank, however with much more powerful elemental coverage. His ability to take special hits and deal significant damage back is fantastic, and has great versatility in movesets that can allow you to tailor him to your needs. He can happily handle threats like Charizard-Y, special Aegislash, and many of the calm minders with a mixed set, and can run Assault Vest to improve his survival chances, or Specs to hit like a truck. Quagsire, on the other hand, can handle most physical threats that come his way, with Unaware taking care of the numerous Attack boosters in the meta like SD Talon, physical Aegislash (not as common as it once was admittedly), Azumarill and Charizard X. His major weakness is the uncommon Grass type, which makes him an effective lure for Sap Sipper Goodra, taking say, Charizard-Y's solarbeam, or Megasaur's Giga Drain. Both compliment each other nicely, with no shared weaknesses. They function very well in today's Bulky Offensive playstyle, though Quagsire can be a bit more stally. They're also a core that can't be beaten reliably with Volt Turn: Volt Switch doesn't work on Quag, and Goodra can punish switchins with a draco meteor to the face.

    I'm going to address the concept questions really quickly. I am of the opinion that these two threats are entirely unique, and are not particularly outclassed by anything. Goodra's closest competitor would be Latias, but Goodra has a superior defensive typing, at the expense of a self-heal in Roost. Quagsire is the premiere defensive Unaware abuser, with its closest parallel being Clefable on the special side.

    Now, about the choice with regards to the metagame. With powerful priority being almost ubiquitous, a good defensive core needs to be able to avoid the 2HKO, and punish in return. Quagsire accomplishes this with Aegislash, Talonflame, Azumaril and Scizor. As the metagame has shifted to being more bulky in playstyle, the ability to deal solid chunks of damage while taking less in return overshadows the need to outspeed and KO. Along with this, a more bulky playstylegives status far more utility: the ability to cripple threats with burn and paralysis, and avoid being crippled in turn, can swing tides in your favor as you head into the late game.

    I'd say there are a few factors holding these two back from being a fearsome core.

    1: Choice Band/Specs sets. As unaware doesn't work on these boosts, sometimes sheer firepower can secure the 2hko on these rather slow pokemon. They appreciate Knock Off support immensely. While I'm on the subject of firepower though, I'm gonna need to talk about Pinsir. The matchup between Quagsire and Pinsir is kind of clutch, hovering between a 2hko and a 3hko. Skarmory deals with Pinsir better, but I feel Quagsire is more versatile in his utility, so I don't think this makes him outclassed. A way to handle threats that are supremely powerful unassisted, would be fantastic: foul play being an apt punishment for many.
    2: Mixed sets. While both can take care of Aegislash, be it Fire Blast or Earthquake, they can also get mortally wounded by a wayward Iron Head or Shadow Ball on the wrong switchin.
    3: Status. Will-o-Wisp can really impact on their potential, eliminating the worry of a mixed Goodra set and making Quags Earthquake even more lacklustre. As most Goodra sets don't have Leftovers, the passive damage can also really impact on survivability. Hydration Rest Goodra could be an option if not for the lack of weather play, and the ubiquity of Drought and Sand Stream when weather does exist. The support of a Will o Wisp absorber would be particularly helpful.
    4: Dragons and Fairies. These powerful types can physically muscle through Quagsire (though Outrage would be the best bet), and specially get through goodra over the course of the battle, with Draco Meteors and Hyper Voices. Being able to take care of these would eliminate a hole in the core.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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