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CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 1

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by jas61292, Mar 10, 2014.

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  1. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T have very different strengths. Tornadus-T has a hugely important 20 extra base speed, significantly better bulk, and Regenerator, all of which make it a wonderful pivot (also Flying STAB is nice). Thundurus-T has that huge base SpA stat and a great electric typing, but is really frail, which makes it much more suitable as a wallbreaker or sweeper than a pivot like Tornadus. It also doesn't synergize as well with Terrakion, since it can't immediately threaten the Grass and Fighting types Terrakion has trouble with due to its lack of a Flying attack.

    People smashing Entei, you're not taking into account that 50% burn chance. There is practically nothing (the exceptions being relatively bulky Fire types) that wants to switch into a Sacred Fire and risk a burn, and most of those are covered by one or both of Stone Edge and Bulldoze. And then there's the obvious ExtremeSpeed to also set it apart from stuff like Infernape and Darmanitan. Plus, it can take a hit (and yes, Bug, Fire, and Fairy resistances really are useful).

    Homeslice, I like Mamoswine and Raikou as members of a core, however, I'm not clear from your explanation on why they work well together. Could you help me understand a little better?

    Psyco Josho, that's a really cool idea and I look forward to seeing suggestions of possible cores we could make with your framework!
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  2. Ununhexium

    Ununhexium

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    I should be partial to mine, but I would throw support behind the Tornadus-T and Terrakion core. With a third, special attacker it would be able to muscle past most relevant threats. You could even use a strategy similar to Gabranth's UU Suicide Mission and have a core for sweeping and one for hazard setting (though a defensive core could work). But any strong attacker could push this core into usage. Their STABs combined can hit the entire game for neutral coverage except for the dreaded Aegislash (funny, I mentioned Aegislash in my own proposal). That could very easily be patched up with a thing with good STABs or coverage moves on Tornadus-T or Terrakion.
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  3. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I think whoever we choose, it's important that they not only be barely outside of the commonly used OU Pokémon, but that they aren't simply outclassed by an existing poke, otherwise our CAP will just end up paired up with their superior cousin.

    Goodra springs to my mind as an example of a Pokémon we could use since assault vest goodra does things few other Pokémon can.


    Also, I'd stear clear of mega evolutions so we don't muddy the waters with the whole "one mega per team" decision (that having been said, I think mega aggron would have been a fun third for goodra and our CAP)
  4. MudcrabDL

    MudcrabDL

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    While Klefki is a brilliant support pokemon, considering we're not exactly going to be recommending the perfect partner for SwagKey, my opinion is that Klefki's scope is rather limited, as pure support sets feature no offensive presence; you can often get maybe two turns to do your thing, before the opponent can launch a concentrated counterattack. If we were designing a team around say, Klefki and Dragonite (rather than Zygarde), presumably the way that'd play out would be with the dual screens set giving Dragonite more of a chance to boost/letting him activate weakness policy with impunity. Thunder Wave and Spikes seem like the most common other attacks; total taunt bait, and easy to wear down with repeated switchins. Similarly, Dragonite really doesn't appreciate Multiscale getting broken, so he'd like a SR clear field, and both of them would love wish-pass, but that'd make a support-support/defence-offence core, which is where my problem with the keys as an integral part of the core lies. Neither Klefki or Dragonite can afford to switch in on attacks (discounting the useful immunities to Ground, Dragon and Poison); they need something to pivot between the two with regards to strong neutral attacks, like Aegislash's Shadow Ball. I'd kind of prefer to see more than one damage dealing option, or a support pokemon that can also provide a legitimate offensive threat.

    EDIT: I'm not saying that Klefki is awful here, but I just thought of how to phrase this more tactfully: Klefki gives up momentum, and to get Dragonite in safely, it almost demands that Klefki gets KOed, leaving a (hopefully crippled) opponent to get set up on. It kind of makes the core a little hard to use to its full potential more than once. Granted, the perfect third could help with this.

    Tornadus-T is a much more interesting choice, in my opinion. Access to Knock Off and Taunt, and with two useful abilities in Defiant (letting it go anti-Defog like Bisharp) and Regenerator (the much safer, hard to go past route), allows it to fill a support/offence role, and function as an effective pivot with U-Turn/Regenerator. He hates BoltBeam and rocks, so as far as partners go, maybe Keldeo? Keldeo can set up rain, resists rocks and Ice Beam, and has sweeping potential of his own. The issue is of course, electric, but the third member can deal with that. I feel like the most important part to these offensive cores is the ability to come in REPEATEDLY with proper prediction and do their job; while overwhelming offence is all well and good, choosing something too frail that is intended to sweep and then die when it can't sweep anymore just doesn't seem like an effective use of a core.

    Choices like QD Volca and CS Terra interest me; Volca can self-heal with Giga Drain, covering many of her weaknesses, and CS Terra can force switches like a pro. I feel like they have the right sort of balance between offensive and defensive; their defensive aspects mainly relying on their lovely type synergy to get into play and force the opponent to take a hit that's bigger than the one you just took. Volca is also able to absorb Will-O-Wisps that'd normally cripple Terra.

    I'd like to suggest a core before I end this: Rotom-H and Gyarados. (I feel Gyarados' many virtues have already been mentioned, so I'm going to just talk up Rotom for a bit before calling it a day.) Carrying on from my final point, Rotom-H is able to support his team simply by virtue of his Fire/Electric typing, able to absorb Will-o-Wisp AND Thunder Wave, two moves which would absolutely cripple Gyarados. In addition, Rotom-H can perform in many roles; a bulky ChestoRest set that spreads status and tanks, or even a fast Choice Scarved revenger with Trick. It is a versatile pokemon that doesn't see much usage simply because it isn't Rotom-W. The flaw in this core, though, is probably a weakness to Rock, which due to the prevalence of Talonflame, is a very common coverage typing in the metagame. Stealth Rocks will wear this core down quickly. (Not saying it's necessary for this new CAP to be some sort of godly defogger, surely one of the other 3 pokemon on the team can take care of that.)
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  5. Deck Knight

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    In general I like the Terrakion + Tornadus-T, because in looking at the Flying types, it's kind of sad that so few Flying Pokemon can actually use their Flying STAB competently. Zapdos and Thundurus don't even get Air Slash ffs.

    I would however like to take the Offense-Defense Core and suggest something a bit different. One of the Pokemon was mentioned earlier, but I support a different partner. Using the same format:

    Pokemon Name:
    [​IMG]Rank 96
    [​IMG]Rank 68


    Why these Pokemon: I used these Pokemon together in one of my teams and it performed fairly well. The idea was to use Assault Vest Metagross with Vaporeon for Wish support. Metagross used Power-Up-Punch to enhance its offensive ability (Other moves: Bullet Punch for priority, Meteor Mash for STAB + chance-boosting, EQ for coverage and mangling Aegislash. Metagross obviously has other options that a Major Third could make more viable. No Fairy wants to deal with +1 Metagross with an appropriate coverage move), and tanked most attacks easily. The two have wonderful defensive synergy, with physically defensive Vaporeon shrugging off physical Ground and Dark moves as well as all Fire-type attacks, and Metagross easily tanking Thunderbolts and Grass Attacks with Assault Vest or resistance. Scald also assisted Vaporeon in neutering the physical attacks Metagross would otherwise have to take.

    Metagross seems to me the perfect example of a Pokemon that should be able to use offensive Steel STAB's new relevance to break into OU. Its Defense lets it take on Azumarill and Mawile, and Clear Body prevents Intimidate from getting in its way. For whatever reason though it isn't up to snuff, and I think it's because it lacks a second partner than can account for its weaknesses and provide it the support it needs. Even without Assault Vest, Metagross' access to Stealth Rock and general ability to take Pursuit (though Foul Play is harder) make it a good partner for a core.

    What are the possibilities: The real issue with this core is that there is no intermediary between Vaporeon and Metagross that can itself sustain a decent Wish and provide a special offensive presence. 110 Base uninvested is enough to make Vaporeon threaten opponents weak to water, but it does little else. It would also help this core to have a Pokemon that actually resists Dark and /or Ghost (Vaporeon doesn't resist, but it does scare out, Ground-types) attacks rather than just have Metagross tank special attacks or Vaporeon deal with stronger physical ones. A Major Third would allow Vaporeon to offer the general team support of Wishpassing, Roar, and /or dry-passing (or even getting Acid Armor or Aqua Ring into Metagross) and allow Metagross to tank its way through the opposition using its still large number of resistances and fantastic bulk.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
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  6. ParadOxymoron

    ParadOxymoron

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    My support is wholly behind Deck Knight's new idea. I like the third Pokémon he's describing. It reminds me of what it would have been like if GameFreak had actually succeeded in creating a Competitive Wigglytuff that was better at what it did than Calm Mind Clefable. (I say Wigglytuff because she's immune to Ghost and resists Dark without being weak to Fighting. Also she's weak to Scizor, a Pokémon that Metagross and Vaporeon can both handle easily, so bonus points for being weak to what the rest of the core is strong against.)
  7. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Another important thing we need to consider besides merely "can our CAP synergize With, and cover the weaknesses of his two partners" is, "can we assure that our CAP can do this while having his own weaknesses that tie him to his two chosen partners?"


    This is another reason that I really like the Goodra/Gyarados combo. Between dragon typing and ludicrous special bulk on Goodra (especially adult vest goodra) and decent physical bulk paired with water typing and intimidate on Gyarados means that our CAP can EASILY run even a 4x fire weakness since it can pass physical fire attacks to Gyarados or special ones to goodra since they can shrug them off so easily.
  8. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    hi yes i'd like to nominate Kyurem-b and Gothitelle as our core.
    [​IMG]+[​IMG]

    Kyurem-B wrecks things. It wrecks things hard. It has an incredibly huge Atk stat, with a meaty SpAtk stat to back it up for mixed sets. It has superb bulk. It was also buffed this gen thanks to the ease of getting SR off the field (praise be to defog). For some reason, it is only #32 usage in OU, despite the fact that it brutalizes the meta. It can both wall break and has the bulk to deal with some of the weaker priority-reliant pokemon in OU. Unfortunately it has a few things it can't really muscle out, like fighting or steel types. Enter, Gothitelle (#126), who can not only beat them, but also trap them, ensuring that the threats die. Goth is also a cool mon who doesn't see as much usage as it deserves. Unfortunately, the two cannot reliably beat Scizor or Fairy types. They also have some problems with offensive mons in general, as this is very much a core designed to brutalize defensive teams. Ideally, we should make our CAP capable of shoring up these weaknesses.
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  9. ginganinja

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Pokemon Name
    : Victini + Kyurem-B

    Why this Pokemon: Kyurem-B and Victini are both very versatile pokemon that can run a mix of sets, allowing move for customisation within our core, and expanding our variety of options. Both of them can go special or physical (or mix), can hit exceptionally hard, and can blast through Mega Venusaur, one of the premier walls of this generation.

    What are the possibilities: Generally speaking, our cap has a number of possibilities with the above core. It could be a bulky, offensively minded pokemon that could switch into the priority that potentially irritates the above core, it could be a cleaner, something that sets itself up to clean up late game after Victini and Kyurem-B nuke down the opponents team, it could be something built to threaten offensive teams more than stall, due to its partners helping it out somewhat with defensive teams, it could really be anything. Obviously, finding a good Rock Resist would be nice for the above core, as both mons are Stealth Rock weak, giving us the oppotunity to give the cap a more supportive bent, if we feel that Stealth Rock might hamper the core enough to warrent a dedicated remover. In short, there are no shortage of options we can run with, which opens up loads of options for us.
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  10. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    These are really pretty similar, as they both employ a great core of wallbreakers that have some trouble with offense. With this model, I think the ideal Major Third would be a pokemon that is particularly good against offensive teams - maybe something along the lines of Greninja, with a lot of speed and coverage options but not a whole lot of power. Pivoting moves would also be good to get a chance to bring the wallbreakers in.

    On the other hand, Nyttyn's core is weak to Scizor and fairies as mentioned, so in that case, a Steel or Fire typing (or Poison with a secondary type that gives a Steel resist, not difficult to find) and a bit of bulk would be great in order to be able to switch in on those without much trouble.

    These both look like a lot of fun and I'm having a lot of trouble picking which one's my favorite (trying not to be prejudiced against Gothitelle for looking ugly). I love Victini, but Goth is incredibly useful as well... yeah I can't choose someone tell me which is better
  11. Dragonblaze052

    Dragonblaze052

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    I highly oppose any Kyurem-Black core. What Kyurem needs to work isn't a third core member, it needs ONE support Pokemon. Kyurem has excellent bulk, unbelievable offenses and no holes in its coverage. If Kyurem gets a Tailwind or a passed speed boost, it could sweep half of the opponent's team nearly unopposed. If we set out to build around it, we won't be complimenting its strengths, we'd be erasing its weaknesses. I see this as a terrible Pokemon to work with for this. Pairing it with Victini only makes this problem so much worse. The support options for this duo is hazard removal, status spreading and speed boosts; what team wouldn't want that? If we decide to take advantage of their midling speed using Trick Room, we would be making a Pokemon to go with a team archetype, not part of a core. If we take the sweeper approach, what could we possibly fill in on the combined coverage of Kyurem and Victini? If we take a defensive approach, the only common weakness between the two is Rock. Unless we intend to make a core that has no or almost no resistances, then I see absolutely nowhere to drastically improve here. What we'd be creating is a universal Support Pivot, not an effective core member. What at all would make using Kyurem better than using Dragonite or Megazard-X? Anything we could do to support it would compliment these other Pokemon just as well. To me, this core seems like it is the exact opposite of what this concept set out to explore. I see virtually nothing that could improve these Pokemon without better working with many others.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
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  12. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Okay, time to narrow down this discussion and transition from naming new cores to discussing what already exists. First of all, it's clear from the direction of the thread and IRC that as a community, we greatly prefer offensive cores to stall cores. Although frail offense vs. bulky offense really hasn't been settled, there's no question that we're going to move forward with an offensive core.

    Offensive cores posted so far can be broken down into two categories: Attacker+Supporter and Attacker+Attacker. The former encompasses cores such as Klefki+Zygarde, Kyurem-Black+Gothitelle or Entei+Zapdos, while proposed dual attacker cores include Latias+Lucario (to an extent), Tornadus-Therian+Terrakion, and Kyurem-Black+Victini, among others. If we choose an Attacker+Supporter core, we'll likely end up building a Pokemon that both takes advantage of the supporter's utility (be it hazards, trapping, etc.) and defeats what the attacker isn't able to. If we choose a dual attacker core, then our Pokemon will likely either be a pivot that takes the hits from the Pokemon the two attackers cannot take or a third attacker that defeats the same Pokemon.

    It's really time to start discussing what's already been posted rather than continue to propose new cores. As such, please spend the end of this thread discussing cores based around the following Pokemon or pairs of Pokemon. Think of the following cores or Pokemon as a sort of "slate" for the end of the discussion, but remember that this thread will conclude by executive decision rather than by poll. The deciding core will come from one of these seven Pokemon or pairs of Pokemon. For single Pokemon (Klefki, Tornadus-Therian, Terrakion, Entei), discuss what partners will work well together with this core. For proposed pairs (Gothitelle+Kyurem-Black, Latias+Lucario, Victini+Kyurem-Black), assess the viability of the core right now and what makes an effective partner for these Pokemon. A lot of this has been discussed already, that's by design!

    1. Klefki - I chose Klefki as a Pokemon to focus on because its role is so much different than any Pokemon like it. There are few better disruptors in the game right now than Klefki; Klefki can spread Spikes, halve your opponent's damage with Screens, stop an opponent's sweep with a guaranteed Thunder Wave, or even use the Strategy That Shall Not Be Named (SwagPlay). There are dozens of sweepers that can take advantage of the support Klefki brings; a few Pokemon I'd like to see discussed as Klefki partners are Dragonite and Togekiss, especially the former. Dragonite can use Weakness Policy in conjunction with Klefki's screen support, and Klefki's paralysis support patches up Dragonite's one real weakness. Of course, discuss Klefki in all contexts, but I would like to see Klefki+Dragonite explored before this thread closes.

    2. Gothitelle+Kyurem-Black - Looking at the two Pokemon in this core should make their role pretty obvious. Gothitelle traps the walls that Kyurem can't break, then Kyurem smashes and crashes through the opponent's team. As nyttyn pointed out, this core struggles against offense but is absolutely devastating to stall-based teams. What could let this core serve more purposes? What can Gothitelle do for a Pokemon whose role is to do what Kyurem-Black can't? Kyurem-Black doesn't need just one support Pokemon to crush teams because it has two main problems: its premier set does not have the power to break through Pokemon that are not weak to its attacks and it does not have the Speed to avoid hits from faster Pokemon. Although Kyurem-Black is very powerful, its true power in this metagame comes from its coverage and Ability. We cannot do it all with only one partner, especially when Gothitelle+Kyurem-Black still has glaring problems with Fairies and Scizor.

    3. Latias+Lucario - This core is missing its wallbreaker, really. It's great at luring Bisharp and providing setup opportunities for Lucario, but Lucario is still a weak link in this core. As strong as Luke is, it's so frail that even resisted hits and Life Orb recoil will add up very quickly. Lucario could really use a partner in crime in this core, but there's a lot of potential with this. Lucario can't take advantage of Latias' Defog, but our Major Third could certainly do so. Lucario also has issues dealing with either Landorus-Therian or Aegislash, especially the latter. Lucario and Latias have moderate synergy together, but there are glaring holes that a third partner could definitely fill.

    4. Tornadus-Therian - Tornadus-Therian can fit into numerous cores, from Flying Spam to even semi-stall. Tornadus-Therian has a lot of untapped potential; it's lost its ability to indiscriminately fire off Hurricanes and has had to adjust to being a ridiculously fast U-Turn pivot. However, the utility that Tornadus-Therian provides is nearly unmatched; Knock Off, U-Turn, and Regenerator allow Tornadus-Therian to support the team without requiring a lot of team support itself. The biggest problem with Tornadus-Therian is that I don't think we've found the perfect teammate for it yet. Politoed's viability is slipping, Kingdra almost mandates a Drizzle Pokemon, and Terrakion's synergy with Tornadus-Therian is suspect. There are numerous good ideas with Tornadus-Therian, but we need to decide what sort of Pokemon can benefit most from Tornadus-Therian's utility.

    5. Terrakion - Terrakion's a very one-dimensional Physical attacker. It's mostly been paired up with similar Special attackers in this thread, and that seems like a reasonable way to move forward. I'm a fan (although not entirely convinced) of Terrakion+Volcarona or Terrakion+Tornadus-Therian because they can set up against or at least disrupt Physical walls such as Skarmory or Gliscor (Torn-T can't beat Skarm 1v1, but it can Knock Off its Lefties or even go for Confusion hax with Hurricane). Terrakion seems like a great partner for an underappreciated Special attacker, and I'd like to see us design a CAP that can focus on Terrakion's specific shortcomings.

    6. Kyurem-Black+Victini - This is definitely the best wallbreaking core posted so far. Nothing comes close to the mixed attacking prowess of Kyurem-Black and Victini. In fact, there are few Pokemon that combine bulk, power, and Speed the way these Pokemon do. My biggest reservation with this thread is that Victini's a fringe Pokemon in OU. It's not a threat commonly prepared for because it can't do everything at once the way Kyurem-Black can. Players simply build teams that handle Victini without specifically having to plan for it. Victini seems like little more than a Mega Venusaur stopper in this core, but its raw power is still intriguing. I'd like to see Victini's viability in a core discussed.

    7. Entei - Entei is possibly disparaged more than even Klefki by some users, even though it's successfully carved a niche in this metagame. Entei is not a Pokemon to be taken lightly because you can't deal with it the same way you deal with most Physical attackers. Sacred Fire ruins Intimidators such as Landorus-Therian and Gyarados, even if they take the actual hit pretty well. It's definitely a viable Pokemon in OU because of its ability to spread burn as well as hit hard. Although Entei is commonly seen with a Choice Band throwing around Sacred Fires, I'd like to see non-CB Entei talked about more in this thread.

    Don't worry about addressing all seven of these cores or half-cores in one post, just pick out what you'd like to see us build our CAP around and build its case. This thread will close in about 18 hours, as well. At that point, our core will be selected and we'll move on to analyzing it in Concept Assessment 2.
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  13. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Pretty sure you've shot any argument for Klefki in the foot by pairing it with #26 Ranked Dragonite. Every sweeper that ever lived would like hazards, paralysis, and screens support. Landorus would. Lucario would. Conkeldurr definitely would. Talonflame likes it because the hazard in question isn't SR so it can't backfire in a mirror match, and it'd like to be able to Flare Blitz Scarfers too. About the only thing that makes Dragonite a better partner is better type interplay, where Klefki resists Ice and Fairy attacks while Dragonite resists Fire and Ground attacks.

    Klefki is super-niche only in the specific combination of move + ability access. Its support is so generic and its stats so questionable that the idea it fits in a specific kind of core is too clever by a half. Dragonite in particular doesn't need any assistance getting higher in OU, considering there's almost a 10% chance of encountering it on one side or the other in any given match. That said since I doubt you'll be reconsidering it, I'd like to suggest that Dragonite violates this concept since it is by no means "lower OU," and instead suggest Cloyster. Cloyster can also support its team with Spikes or Toxic Spikes, or Rapid Spin, but its key role in the core will be to use Klefki's Screen support to set up Shell Smash and lay waste to opponents. There are a few Scarfers that still get a drop on Cloyster even after Shell Smash, but regardless when Cloyster is sitting behind screens it is a nightmare to deal with, and it augments Klefki's hazards.

    Type interplay is good, with Cloyster laughing at any Earthquake or Flare Blitz aimed at Klefki. What the core really needs is a Specially Defensive Pokemon that could also set up some support like Light Screen and complement the ability to switch into attacks, set up, and utilize Klefki's support.

    EDIT: If I had to crystalize it, I'd say my problem with Klefki is that it's more like "The Fourth Pokemon." That is, you have your central core of 3 Pokemon, and then you add Klefki to your team so that it makes all the jobs of the Pokemon in that core easier. But Klefki itself is not part of the core, its support just integrates itself into it to improve the chances of the core succeeding.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
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  14. Yilx

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    [​IMG]

    Now that we've buckled down on things, I'd like to throw my support behind Kyurem-B. I know some of you might say he's "too strong" or "too good for the concept", but let's face it, his usage, even in 1760 stats says otherwise. He can run an entire variety of sets, including Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Substitute, Mixed, Special... he is a very versatile mon that can fit your team according to it's needs. It has all of the stats it needs in the right places, creating a bulky mon that isn't abysmally slow and has amazing offensive backbone.

    I am more in favor of Kyurem-B + Victini than Kyurem-B + Gothtitelle, however. Kyurem-B, in my opinion, is more of a "complementary" Pokemon than a mon to base a team around, kind of like Rotom-W or Gliscor in that regard. Talking specifically on Kyurem-B + Victini now, both kind of lack any real power to completely demolish Stall or strong defensive mons in general, like Chansey, AV Conkeldurr and Cresselia. With proper prediction and defensively invested in the right stats, they can wall the two all day and allow their teammates to properly revenge them. As an avid Kyurem-B player myself, I find that Fairies in general also put a damper on it; Victini can help with its high powered V-Creates, but it is extremely easy to revenge and once it goes down it's up to the rest of the team to help Kyurem-B.

    I'd think a third mon to completement Kyurem-B + Victini would be very interesting to look at; it could be some kind of set-up mon to take advantage of the lack of setup but the amazing versatility that Kyurem-B and Victini have, or play a role as a pivot for the two as they can be easily revenge killed.
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  15. shinyskarmory

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    I dislike any core with Kyurem-B in it because it has so many positive attributes and the things it's lacking in are not things that can be solved by adding in CAP 18. Kyurem-B needs a fifth moveslots so it can carry Substitute, Roost, Dragon Claw, Fusion Bolt, AND Outrage/Stone Edge, and it needs to not be Dragon/Ice. Those aren't things CAP 18 can fix; the only thing it can fix is Kyurem being 5-10 base speed too slow, and there are any number of mons that can do that with Speed Boost/Dragon Dance passing, paralysis support, or Tailwind.

    I also am not a fan of Klefki, because it honestly is not that interesting a mon to work with. Its base stats are all crap, so the only thing that separates it from other mons is typing (which is a really poor niche) and Prankster, which is also done by any number of other mons like Thunderus, Sableye, and Whimsicott. Picking Klefki, aside from meaning that we're going to have to put up with one of the most annoying mons in the game during playtesting, is just asking for someone to decide,"Hey, Thunderus would be really good here!".

    So that leaves me with Latias+Lucario, Terrakion, Tornadus-T, and Entei...ugh.

    Out of the remaining options, I like LaLu (official core name go!) and Terrakion. LaLu is cool because they really have clear weaknesses that we can fit CAP 18 into, and those weaknesses are actually something CAP 18 can do something about. We have to be wary of being outclassed by Latios, though-what does Latias bring to the table that Latios doesn't?

    Terrakion is cool because he was the premier Swiss Army knife of last gen who just...did well against everything and fit in just about every team comp. And suddenly Fairy type comes around (of which 2 are OU) and he falls to UU? He'd be very interesting to explore, but he's hard to find a good partner for because he just...works well with everything.

    Tornadus-T would be an alright pick for me, seems interesting enough. I oppose it on purely procedural grounds; this would essentially mandate that CAP 18 be able to consistently summon rain (gravity lol). That means Drizzle or a bulky Rain Dancer, which jumps numerous polls and eliminates many options we would be able to discuss with other concepts.

    Entei is just bad tbh. He was bad before he got Sacred Fire, and he'll still be bad after getting it. One move does not a Pokemon make, especially when it hits from his weaker attacking stat.

    EDIT: I thought Sacred Fire was special, my bad
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
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  16. Rotosect

    Rotosect Banned deucer.

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    I find the Kyurem-B/Victini core interesting.
    They're definitely not lacking in power, so what the duo is missing is a form of support, namely hazard control as they're both weak to SR and vulnerable to Spikes/TS/Sticky Web.
    Looking at the premier hazard removers in OU, none of them can really fit into this core (Mandibuzz is also weak to rock, Excadrill is too slow and also weak to ground/water/fighting, Latias compounds the Tyranitar/Scizor weaknesses and so on), so a Rapid Spin/Defog user with good defensive synergy seems like the best option.
    Even though both of them are weak to priority in general, it should be noted that Kyu-B resists Aqua Jet and Victini resists Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, so there already is some basic defensive synergy, giving more freedom of choice for major third's typing.

    The fact you're even suggesting this means you have no idea of how Kyu-B works in OU.
    It's a mixed attacker and its Ice STAB is one of its biggest selling points, not just another physically oriented dragon that has to compete with a dozen of others.
    Kyurem-B doesn't need to be "fixed", nor is this the point of the project. It plays one role (mixed wallbreaker) and plays it damn well, it just needs a partner that can capitalize on this.
    You could say "just pair it with a fast sweeper that can appreciate the removal of Landorus-T/Rotom-W/Gliscor/Mega Venusaur/whatever" but in a realistic scenario your opponent is going to carry 2 or 3 of those pokemon at most and there are still threats that Kyu-B can't properly address (Scizor and Clefable come to mind, both pokemon that can stop most sweepers), so it needs something that can deal with those.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  17. Yilx

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    I'm not sure if you're looking at the correct usage stats, because the last time I checked Terrakion is OU:

    Terrakion - #43 in OU | Usage: 4.17582% | Raw count: 115,488

    Latias + Lucario might also work out very well. With the banishment of Lucarionite from OU, we can actually look into how Lucario fares in OU, packing Steel STAB to hit all of the fairies wanting to wall his fighting STAB. On the matter of fairies, that might be the one thing this core needs; a fairy-killer to stop the core from getting run over and walled by fat water rabbits or moon fairies.

    I feel that anything involving Torn-T is trying to polish a turd, to be quite honest; the weather nerf pretty much killed most of his viability and a "pivot" relying on a 75 base power, 90 accuracy move to scare things away isn't very threatening.

    Entei has the advantage of hitting things -very- hard with a Choice Band on, but I feel that OU is not the right place for him to roam.
  18. shinyskarmory

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    Well, if we're talking about mixed wall breaker KyuB, as opposed to "Substitute->drop the hammer of God on whatever mon happens to be in your way" KyuB, then the list of mons that work with him expands to pretty much all offensively-oriented mons. Kyurem-B is an equal opportunity nuke; he hits everyone for equally massive damage and the only thing that prevents him from blowing up OU is that he has less then 100 base Speed, somewhat poor coverage (although with that base Attack he doesn't need it as much as other similar mons would), and no priority moves which ties into his 4MSS syndrome and move pool issues in general. That's not a problem CAP 18 can fix, even if KyuB somehow wasn't too strong to be a reasonable choice for this project.

    We need to choose a mon who needs specific things from a partner/partners. We won't learn anything from choosing a mon that blows up everything and then saying, "CAP 18 needs to be a mon that can capitalize on having smoking craters where their walls used to be." There's a very long list of mons that can do that-we don't need to make a CAP to "wreck everything except walls" to pair with KyuB's "wrecks all walls".
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  19. jas61292

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    Of the cores that are still up for discussion, I personally support Tornadus-T cores the most, followed by the Kyu-b/Victini core.

    Probably the thing I love most about Torn-T is the fact that is was proven last generation to be an absolute monster. The only real difference for it now is that the loss of Drizzle being permanent means that it cannot just spam Hurricane all the time. Flying certanly hasn't gotten worse offensively, and all its other assets are still in tact. For the most part, Torn-T still has everything it needs to be a force in the metagame. It just isn't, because of the loss of support for it. As this is a concept looking at cores, which are a group of Pokemomn that help each other out on a team, looking at a Pokemon that clearly can work with a core, but currently just lacks the core to work with, is an ideal way to go.

    Now, as far as the suggested partner Pokemon for Torn-T, probably my favorite would be Kingdra. I don't really want to turn this into a "make drizzle/rain good again" project, and I feel that if we either use a drizzle Pokemon in the core, or leave out a rain based Pokemon in a core that really needs rain, then that is all that this will amount to. Kingdra, however, while not the scariest thing ever, is one of the few Pokemon to really take advantage of manual rain itself. It fills a niche that nothing else really does, and so we don't have to worry about it being outclassed in that. When looking at the two as a core though, while rain supports both, they don't seem to be a fully functioning core by themselves. Neither has the most amazing power ever, and they will almost always share problems with certain Pokemon (though which may depend on the Kingdra set). Additionally, while they do not share any weaknesses, neither can really come in on the attacks that would be commonly aimed at the other. Basically, what these two would love is some sort of tailored pivot for the core. While pivots definitely exist that can help them, not are really ideal. I think this kind of supportive pivot for some offensive mons is the best way to go with this project as a whole, and this is probably my favorite example of one that is needed.

    Other than Kingdra, I do really like the other Torn-T ideas that have been thrown around, but I don't have as much to say on any of them.

    The other core that I really like is Black Kyurem and Victini. When talking about an offensive wall smashing core, there is not much that can do it better. Kyu-b can make just about anything shudder from its offensive presence, and Victini and its V-Create pack such a punch that very little can withstand. You really need a resist AND big bulk to withstand that hit, and most of the guys with said resist would be scared of what Kyu-b can bring to the table. But, of course, both of these, and especially Victini, are often more threatening in theory than in practice. The sheer power of things like a Choice Band can often be a hinderance, and without things like that they can be walled by some common guys. The ability to actually have them out when needed can be a problem, and despite the great bulk both have, they ca be worn down very fast thanks to their typing. Yet despite that, they are still incredibly threatening individually. Giving these guys something to make them mesh together into some amazing wall breaking core would definitely take some work, but I think it would be very interesting, as we would not need to go any sort of power route at all, if we chose not to. As DLC mentioned, with a core like this, we could either make a pivot to let the two take advantage better of what they have already, or just go all out and make a third wall smasher that just so happens to smash the walls that these two cannot. With some suggested cores, individuals are of questionable viability, and going with them would lead to scenarios where even a perfect CAP might not bring out what we wanted. Here, there is a lot of room to work with, and I don't think there is any question of the potential of the members of this core. We just need to make it work.
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  20. 56k

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    Out of the remaining possibilities, Klefki seems like the perfect example of an "on the cusp" pokemon that definitely has OU uses as of now, but could definitely use a small boost in terms of parternship to put him in par with, say, deo-s or ferrothorn. I also want to point out that he is the only pokemon on the list with a flying resist, and one of only two pokemon with priority. Therefore I think he offers the most flexible options in terms of teambuilding. He could be part of a hazard control core, a defensive pivot in a bulky core, or the status spreader in a sweeping core. His movepool is interesting, his typing is interesting and offers much to explore, and his ability is amazing. This guy can be part of whatever type of core we want to create.

    The next step is pointing out a suitable partner. Klefki's main moves are spikes, twave, toxic, and dual screen. Those alone make him applicable on almost any type of team. But what slightly underused pokemon both greatly benefits from Klefki's support as well as well as offers type synergy? And what partner possesses enough versatility to leave as many options open as possible for the CAP?

    Klefki + Azumarill + Majorthird

    What beasts. Azumarill is currently below talonflame and scizor despite its priority being just as good, and it resists sucker punch to boot. Lets get the typing threats out of the way first. Azumarill can take care of Excadrill, Heatran, Volcarona, Rotom-H, Keldeo, Infernape, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Donphan, Gliscor, Quagsire, Greninja, Mamoswine, Landorus-T, Landorus-I, Talonflame, Gyarados, Chansey, Blissey, Clefable, and Charizard-X.

    Klefki can set up spikes, status, or screens on Venusaur, Galvantula, Ferrothorn, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Deoxys-D, and Mawile. Lead klefki can set up on basically everything except faster prankster taunts.

    Both of them put up a fight and maim or cripple Charizard-Y, Gengar, Scizor, Dragonite, Goodra, Aegislash, Deoxys-S, Pinsir, Thundurus, and Togekiss.

    Klefki sets up spikes to make Azumarill's aqua jets more dangerous, or t-waves things so he can waterfall/playrough them. Azumarill has great bulk to switch into repeated fire STABs and the occasional earthquake, retaliating with priority. Klefki switches into sludge bombs and grass moves. Fairy is a REALLY good type, and neither of these are weak to steel, and one is immune to poison. They both resist knock off. Both of them have the priority to compete in OU. And they could really use a perfect third component.

    There's an absolutely endless supply of possibilities for a CAP to work together with these two. A ground or electric immunity. Wish support. Baton passing. Further priority moves. But that's for the next topic.

    I post to suggest the double fairy priority core. An absolute stellar set of complimentary resists and built-in checks against a large swath of the OU metagame, with some certainly exploitable weaknesses and key troublesome pokemon that a CAP partner could be designed to handle. Azumarill is bulky out of the box with his default 252 HP EVs, meaning he can work in hyper offense, bulky offense, or even stall. Klefki is a toolbox that can bend towards any type of team and use his support movepool to further any type of strategy. He even has just barely enough offense to viably run Dazzling Gleam or Flash Cannon if need be. These are some flexible pokemon that do their jobs well, do them better when working together, and give great direction for CAP theorymonning.
  21. AriadosPerson

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    I intended Entei + Zapdos to be a working core to base this CAP around; I apologize if the hesitance expressed in my other post was misleading, but I was merely trying to leave room for other people to suggest a potentially better partner (which no one has done, meaning I'd like to see it represented as Entei + Zapdos).

    Entei doesn't really have too much it can do other than Choice Band (which is admittedly a bit of a flaw); its other main set would probably be Assault Vest, which uses the same moves, but trades stultifying power for a better buffer against the likes of Surfs and Earth Powers, as well as reinstating Entei's ability to switch moves (for instance, if Heatran switches into a Sacred Fire, Entei can immediately retaliate with Bulldoze while surviving an Earth Power, as opposed to being forced to switch). AVtei therefore relies more on its staying power and flexibility to spread burns, while being less reliant on the fear of CB SF's destructive power (at least, after the first attack). Assault Vest Entei would likely prefer a more offensively inclined CAP, in order to make up for the loss of raw force provided by Choice Band.

    Part of the reason I suggested a core involving Entei is because it's one of Gen VI's underexplored and underrated new threats, and I don't believe people are aware of its newfound capabilities and its operations in OU; some of the comments of this thread are certainly indicative of this fact (Entei is a physical attacker, and Sacred Fire is a physical move, for one thing). The CAP project is always trying to learn more about the influence of different aspects of the game, and I personally believe that XY's first CAP should attempt to examine certain features and Pokemon that haven't yet been explored. We know how Kyu-B works; anybody here can tell you that it's a monstrous wallbreaker that's only balanced by its weakness to priority and common hazards, and it'd be way better if it had a different type and a better movepool. It had a Suspect Test dedicated to figuring that out last Gen, and it hasn't changed that much after arriving in Kalos. Contrast Entei, which has received limited fanfare within this new generation despite the fact that it very successfully utilizes a move never before seen in the OU tier, and serves a role on a team that cannot be replicated.

    The purpose of this concept is to identify two lesser-used OU Pokemon, then create a third Pokemon that forms a three-mon core with them. If we select Pokemon that we already fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of, what is there to gain from this CAP? If we select Pokemon that are vastly unchanged from Gen V, what are we really learning about the nature of Gen VI's metagame? If we select a Pokemon that is already recognized as excellent in its role, what do we honestly expect to happen when a "perfect core" is designed with a custom Pokemon built to maximize that Pokemon's already versatile strengths? If we design a core that merely replicates an already used core, what was the point of all this?
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  22. Timeblaze

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    One thing I think more people should consider when choosing the two Pokemon for this core, is that all three members of the core should have to be able to support each other equally. While it is true that we could choose a two Pokemon that support each other and have easily identifiable counters, and then design CAP18 with the intent of covering up that weakness, this doesn't really make CAP18 "stick" to this core. I'll explain.

    Let's think about this as if CAP18 was a canon Pokemon in XY. If I wanted to build a core involving CAP18, the two Pokemon we choose would have to be the best possible partners I could choose for CAP18. Cores aren't a one-way street - if only one Pokemon is supporting the other in a core, then that's not a core. That's support for a team's win condition. All Pokemon in the core have to be equally supported by each other. This is why we can't choose a Pokemon that's terrible in OU, because it can't support CAP18 as much as CAP18 is supporting it. This is also why we have to take into account how CAP18 will be supported by the two Pokemon. If CAP18 is only added to a core to take out specific threats to the two Pokemon, like Mega Charizard Y, Scizor, or Aegislash, then CAP18 won't be a member of a core. It will be a counter/check to Mega Charizard Y, Scizor, or Aegislash. And that would be valuable even outside of the core. Yes, CAP18 can be check/counter the other two Pokemon's counters, but CAP18 has to receive just as much support from the two Pokemon as it gives to them. Even if the two Pokemon give excellent support to each other, they'd likely have to support CAP18 differently. For example, a Scizor would support a Mega Venusaur by Pursuit trapping Psychic-types that give it trouble, but it would support a Heatran by luring in Fire-types it could take advantage of. Not saying that that's a good core, but just an example of the different types of support a Pokemon gives.

    I haven't decided on which Pokemon I support yet, but I'd just like people to take the two Pokemon's support capabilities into account. What support will these two Pokemon give to CAP18 that CAP18 won't get anywhere else? That's the question I think everyone should be considering before throwing support behind certain Pokemon.
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  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I see no point in using any core involving Kyurem-B. While the concept may say ''A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.'', let's not forget the most important thing that usage is meant to represent in the metagame, and this is how big of a threat each Pokemon is. Tiers are basically threatlists, but when those threatlists are not accurate we have to take some measures (see 1760 stats). This is exactly what should happen here. We shouldn't just be choosing our Pokemon based solely on usage, but a mix of usage and viability. When any good OU player knows for a fact that Kyurem-B is an amazing wallbraker, in fact one of the best, and that it actually needs very little in terms of support, other than reliable anti-SR support, what's the point of choosing Kyurem-B? Are we taking advantage of the way that the Concept is worded just to spam an already great Pokemon in OU? Kyurem-B can already take part in very effective cores, and is already a very successful Pokemon.

    With that said, i have to agree that Tornadus-T is looking like our best bet right now. All that Tornadus-T needs to shine again is being able to spam Hurricane, and we have a few ways to do this, such as picking a Rain Dance or Drizzle teammate, or creating one. Personally, i don't want us messing with weather abilities, and i don't really like any existing RD user outside of Drizzle teams, so my preferred route would be for us to create a good Rain Dance user that would commonly use Rain Dance.

    EDIT: Also, i would like to add that i don't like Kingdra at all as a teammate for Tornadus-T. Their offensive synergy is nothing impressive, as Kingdra either beats some of the Pokemon that don't trouble Tornadus-T (Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Keldeo), or gets walled by some of the Pokemon that Tornadus-T is also walled, such as SpD Sylveon and Chansey. I guess that Torn-T can soften up those two with Knock Off so that Kingdra can get past them easier, but any offensive Pokemon benefits from defensive Pokemon losing their items, this isn't any particular great synergy. The only real check / counter to both Pokemon that they wear down is Rotom-W. Also, both are very frail and share no defensive synergy at all. Tornadus-T is weak to Ice, Electric, and Rock, none of which Kingdra resists, and Kingdra is weak to Dragon and Fairy, none of which Tornadus-T resists. Furthermore, due to their lack of bulk, both Pokemon are very weak to strong priority users, such as Talonflame, Bisharp, and Mega Mawile, leaving a ton of stuff that threaten those two offensively, and a many Pokemon that check or wall the core defensively. In general, Swift Swim Kingdra is only worth it in Drizzle teams, a stand alone RD set is not good anymore, and Focus Energy + Sniper set has no reason to be used alongside Tornadus-T as it can't any longer provide rain for Tornadus-T and has little synergy with Tornadus-T in general.

    tl;dr RD Kingdra is not a good partner for Tornadus-T as RD Kingdra is not a good set outside of Drizzle teams anymore.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
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  24. TooMuchSugar

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    I love all the attention being aimed at Tornadus-T, however, I feel the need to point something out: Tornadus really doesn't need rain to be effective. It changes roles, sure - it won't be spamming Hurricane all the time for obvious reasons. However, it's still an incredible pivot that lasts virtually forever, and it's got a very wide movepool allowing it to support other core members in a lot of ways. Also, without rain up it's free to use Heat Wave without any drawbacks, which is very helpful.

    Birkal brought this up in his post originally discussing Tornadus-T, where as well as Politoed and rain abusers he mentioned Electric-types, Excadrill, and even Hippowdon as potential partners for Tornadus. This is the direction I was planning on taking the Tornadus-T + Terrakion core. Tornadus-T can easily pivot into almost all of the things that wall Terrakion and a good portion of things looking to revenge kill it, with or without rain. It won't be able to muscle past some of them without Hurricane (Gliscor and Landorus-T), but that's not its role in this core - that would probably be the CAP's job. Air Slash isn't a bad STAB anyway:

    252 SpA Tornadus-T Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Tornadus-T Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 206-246 (49.7 - 59.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

    So basically, don't assume that any core with Tornadus-T involved has to have rain, it's still a great utility pokemon on weatherless.
  25. Ununhexium

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    I just had a thought: what about Tornadus-I?

    It has 10 lower speed and a bit lower defenses, but it hits harder and has access to prankster/defiant. It cant use regenerator which hurts and it has lower defenses, but it does have advantages such as being able to reliably kill AV Conkeldurr.

    I just want to say, I'm not suggesting that it is a better choice, I was just pointing out that there are advantages to the other forms to consider.
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