CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 2

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#26
I think it's important to look at what Latias is doing, seeing as everyone has different ideas.

What I'm seeing as the two most viable options.
Defog / Roost / Attack / Filler
Wish / Protect / Filler / Filler
Light Screen / Roost / Attack / Attack
Screen / Screen / Roost / Attack

Unless people want to tackle the small windows where Calm Mind is better than on Latios.
 

alexwolf

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#27
Guys, please let's stop talking about special Lucario as if it's one of the advantages of Lucario over other physical sweepers, because it isn't. And you know why? Because a ton of faster Pokemon can stop this set, so it has very little viability against offensive teams. Let's see the Pokemon that outspeed Lucario and survive +2 Vacuum Wave, but not +2 Extremespeed, with Stealth Rock taken into account:
  • Mega Charizard Y
  • Mega Pinsir
  • Thundurus
  • Deoxys-S
  • Latios
  • Latias
  • Landorus
  • Talonflame
  • Keldeo (needs Spikes + SR)
  • Choice Band Azumarill (needs Spikes + SR)
  • Mega Gardevoir
  • Mega Medicham
While the OHKOes you get against faster offensive Pokemon with Vacuum Wave, that you couldn't OHKO with Extresmpeed, after SR, are:
  • Choice Scarf Heatran
  • Choice Scarf Tyranitar
  • Choice Scarf Excadrill and Sand Rush Excadrill
  • Terrakion
So, as you can see, NP Lucario gets checked by some of the best and most common offensive threats in the metagame, while only beating Terrakion, outside of Choice Scarf Pokemon, which are generally easy to play around, due to being locked into one move. This is the main reason why SD >>>> NP in this metagame. Not beating some of the best and most common offensive Pokemon at +2 sucks, and it sucks so big, that i wouldn't consider NP Lucario worth our time. While it is no slouch in the wallbreaking department, the SD set isn't either, without sacrificing utility against more offensive teams though.

Instead, let's focus on Lucario's real pros over other physical sweepers. What advantages does SD Lucario have over other priority using physical sweppers? Unlike Mega Pinsir and Bisharp, Lucario can get past Skarmory, can't be checked by Thunder Wave Thundurus, Extremespeed CB Dragonite, and Talonflame, isn't walled by SpD Mega Char X (Bisharp), and isn't walled by Rotom-W (Mega Pinsir). What advantages does Lucario have over non-priority using physical sweepers, such as Mega Charizard X and Garchomp. Obviously, priority, which makes it fare much better against faster Pokemon or opposing priority users. Also, Lucario can get past Azumarill (Mega Char X), physically defensive Tyranitar (Mega Char X), and Skarmory (Garchomp).

Those are Lucario's advantages we need to focus on, not the ability to use a mostly outclassed NP set
 
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#28
So, I've seen a lot of posts above dealing with exactly what I'm about to say. However, rather than responding those posts, I feel as if it would be more productive to answer the questions provided by DLC, with my opinions on the kinds of ways that this core should be used, and what the new CAP should be made around, etc. My apologies for not so much discussing the contents of this post, versus just posting it, however I feel as if answering these questions straight-up is the most productive way to voice all of what I'd like to say on this topic.

Oh yeah, also, super-long post ahead with embedded videos and stuff, so.. look forward to that.

1. What support does Lucario require to sweep or significantly weaken an opponent's team?

Resistances. Or Immunities. And Defensively-Bulky Pokemon to switch into. Three things that Latias is pretty great at providing. However, even with this pair's hefty amount of type coverage, there are some bases that even a combination of Lucario and Latias can't cover, not to mention that even with resistances, Latias has some pretty set-in-stone counters, and Life-Orb'd Lucario's frail-ness makes it hard for him to switch in on even semi-powerful resisted attacks. In short, Lucario depends upon partners that can take hits for it, and hit back with at least reasonable amounts of power.

2. What can Latias do to allow Lucario to sweep an opponent's team?

Everything described above. Most namely, (assuming you're looking for specifics) having resistances/immunities to all of Lucario's weaknesses, as well as having more variety than Lucario's movepool, with which it can use to help to cover more Offensive bases than Lucario could alone.

3. What are Lucario and Latias unable to defeat together? What can CAP 18 do to cover those weaknesses?

Fairies. Fairies, fairies, fairies. Sure, Lucario can sweep some fairies (as Alexwolf points out) by using either brute force, or a STAB Bullet Punch/Iron Tail or two, however with Iron Tail's inaccuracy, and Lucario's frail-ness + newfound lack-of-speed, there needs to be some room for error, priority regardless. Of course, with Aegislash and Talonflame being literally, some of the top OU threats in competitive right now, CAP 18 is also going to be needed to cover the OU niche'mons that break the current core we have as is. How can the new CAP cover these bases, you might ask?


Fire. Both resisting Fairy as a typing, and dealing serious damage to counters like Pinsir-M and Aegislash, one possible way for the new CAP to flourish in both the Defensive and Offensive departments, is through fire. In addition, some way to deal with the powerful Ghost and Dark type attacks that Latias can't take, and Lucario can't take well, seems to be a necessity. (Also, I realize there are still Fairy typed threats, namely Azumarill, that can deal with fire and fire types, however this is just one suggestion for a possible resistance factor. Again, sug-gest-ion. I realize there is a concrete step for this, seriously. Just.. throwin' it out there...)(P.P.S. Since some people are throwing out typings at this stage, for whatever reason, one way to achieve the resistances described above is to have a Fire/Normal type with some versatility in it's moveset. Again, a mere suggestion.)

4. What role should CAP 18 have in this core?

I believe that this CAP should not pave the way for Lucario, but rather do everything else to it's best ability to secure it's success. Basically, this CAP should be focused on assisting Lucario AND Latias by taking the kinds of hits that they cannot, and throwing the kinds of punches that they cannot. My reasoning for this, is as follows;

1.) Both Latias and Lucario, as a pair, have counters that are more than prevalent in OU, from 'mons that stop this duo dead in their tracks, (Gliscor, Mandibuzz) to dangerous opponents that can wreck this core as is, if even a single slip-up occurs (Conkeldurr, Pinsir-M, T-Flame). Something that can be used to fall back on, when a dangerous sweeper enters the arena, or having something with the right moveset to counter a Conkeldurr, for example, without risking potentially 1/3 of this core, could be invaluable.

And, 2.) This core would legitimately benefit much more from a Pokemon that can participate in battle, than one who decorates the field. Sure, something to get off SR is almost always a valuable asset to have in competative, but honestly, with Lucario's priority and Latias defogging all over the place, setting up hazards in the first place isn't really needed in comparison to a third teammate, let alone easy to set up in battle. Mind you, something that could set up Sticky Web could be useful in assisting Lucario's not-so-great speed, however something built around this kind of assistance fits neither the concept this CAP is supposed to be being designed around, "Major Third", nor the core this 'mon is supposed to fit into. Sure it's benefits Lucario in some ways, however as the next questions asks, this Pokemon would be constantly used outside of it's recommended context, likely without it's core partners. Having CAP 18 play a defensively supportive role in regards to it's partners, while still being able to hold it's own ground, seems to me as the kind of role it would fit best.

5. How are we going to make sure this Pokemon benefits Lucario and Latias more than any other Pokemon, especially Pokemon that perform similar roles as Lucario and Latias?

Simple. We design it to work specifically with both Lucario and Latias. As Dragonblaze mentioned above, what Pokemon have the dual typing of Dragon/Psychic, as well as legitimate Defensive capabilities? Latias. And only Latias. Or rather, what Pokemon have the typing Fighting/Steel, with multiple base attacking stats of over 100? Lucario. And ONLY Lucario. And of course, what other possible cores or parts of cores, have the same synergy, movepool, resistances, and Offensive and Defensive capabilities of a Lucario-Latias core? The truth is, there are none. Because even though Lucario may be compared or overshadowed by Pinsir(-M) or Conkeldurr, (and likewise with Latias to Latios) a CAP built around the unique typings and strengths of our selected duo, can and will only work as planned WITH our selected duo. For example, let's say that someone tries to use this core by substituting Latias for a Latios. This person is in a fairly close match so far until... Banded Talonflame, a common and relentless threat among OU, is brought onto the field. Of course, sending out Lucario is suicide, and CAP 18 died earlier in the match... leaving only Latios. The very same Latios who happens to get OHKO'd by the same Brave Bird that a full health Latias could have lived. Or let's say that someone were to favor Mega Pinsir over Lucario, and Aegislash is thrown out against it. Pinsir, in this scenario has already Mega'd, and stealth rocks are on the field, leaving the person's Pinsir weak and vulnerable. With no way to counter Aegis without Lucario, or even to Defog without getting wrecked by a Shadow Ball, the end result to this situation isn't pretty. And these are the reasons why this CAP would best benefit ONLY the core that is currently slated. Due to the unique synergy that a core of Lucario-Latias has going for it, no other core involving the CAP that is about to be created, will act the same. Sure, you might be able to use this core with a Latias, or a Pinsir, or a Conkeldurr. But you won't be able to use it well, at least not as well as the way that it was designed to work, because that is how these Pokemon, and these Pokemon only, synergize.
I completely agree here. And for at least half of the threats listed here, a burn to the face would cripple it enough for it to no longer threaten the core, like Aegislash, Landorus-T, Mawile, and the list goes on. I think a mon with the power to consistently burn its opponents could clear the way for this core, be it WoW, Sacred Fire, or even Flame Orb + Magic Guard/Guts/Quick Feet + Trick/Psycho Boost.
 
#29
Since a lot of people on IRC basically blew me off when I talked about my worries about Lucario being overtaken by Terrakion's higher base Attack and Speed (assuming for the sake of argument that Medicham-M doesn't occupy the same niche due to using a Mega slot), I thought I'd demonstrate my reasoning here with some calcs.

The problem is not so much that Lucario's DAMAGE is that inferior as the number of moves he requires to access it. Lucario's main niche over Terrakion is that he has priority; however, actually using said priority costs him kills that he simply can't get without hard hitting non-priority moves. However, not taking the priority causes him to outright lose to quite a few mons.

I'm working from Albacore's counter list in the third post, as even though some of the stuff in it aren't true counters to a Lucario, it is the best list we have so far. The following calculations assume that both Terrakion and Lucario have a Swords Dance set up (as both can run a Swords Dance set well). Let's run the numbers:

The Switch-ins

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 390-460 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 437-515 (134.8 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Moveslots used: Lucario 2 (SD+EQ), Terrakion 2 (SD+EQ). Both pokemon do alright here. It's worth noting that priority doesn't do shit for Lucario in this situation; in fact, it doesn't do shit for him in most situations, as you'll see from the rest of these calcs.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 538-634 (136.5 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO)
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 300-355 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


This is the first place where Lucario actually does not lose out in sweeping power by taking a piece of his priority moveset. In every calc so far he has lost enough power by downgrading to priority that he allows himself to be straight OHKOed or OHKOed after his LO recoil. Coincidentally, it's also the first place where Lucario beats Terrakion. Keep in mind, though, that in order to accomplish this Lucario has to take a 75% accuracy move, and we already consider Stone Edge unreliable at 80%.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 519-612 (125.3 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 581-684 (140.3 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 380-450 (135.2 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)


Moveslots used: Lucario 4 (SD+EQ+CC+Iron Tail), Terrakion 4 (SD+Edgequake+CC)

Easy OHKOs for both mons here. Not much to say really, other then that Conkeldurr takes Close Combat and OHKOs in return without a SD for both mons.

By this point down the list, both mons have reached their full movesets; they literally don't have room for any more coverage or other moves. This is why the priority moves are not an important part of physical Lucario's niche; he simply can't afford to run them and give up crucial OHKOs on some of these mons.


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 536-634 (151.4 - 179%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 269-317 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (which turns into a 100% chance to OHKO when you consider Lucario's Life Orb recoil)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 300-355 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 224-266 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Here Lucario MUST have Ice Punch to avoid a OHKO from Gliscor. Terrakion here has a clear edge, as he can break through Gliscor with Stone Edge (with a high dice roll) or Stone Edge->Close Combat without having to run Ice Punch, not sacrificing any coverage against other mons, and only fainting upon the second turn of LO recoil if the enemy Gliscor rolls high on Earthquake. If Stone Edge misses on the first turn, Terrakion can also switch out to remain alive...Lucario has no such option.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 681-806 (178.2 - 210.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 341-402 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 522-614 (185.7 - 218.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 380-448 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 426-504 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO))


So at the moment Lucario's doing fine, so long as it takes Ice Punch on its set. However, taking Ice Punch costs Lucario one of Iron Tail, Close Combat, or Earthquake, each of which is needed to break through at least one of the counters so far in the list. Terrakion, on the other hand, has had everything he needed so far with Edgequake+CC, OHKOing every enemy except for Clefable (who is 2HKOed and does not 2HKO Terrakion in return) and Gliscor, who has a low chance to be OHKOed but cannot OHKO Terrakion.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 347-409 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 291-343 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 385-455 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(+2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 203-239 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 387-458 (91.2 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 647-764 (152.5 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(+2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 185-218 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)


Terrakion indisputably does better against physically defensive Mandibuzz, even when I threw Lucario a bone and gave him a 6th moveslot to use on Stone Edge (the others are covered by SD, CC, EQ, Ice Punch, and Iron Tail). Granted, Lucario does get the OHKO with Close Combat or Ice Punch if Stealth Rocks are on the field, but that's no guarantee in today's metagame with so many Defoggers running around.

It's also worth noting that both of Mandibuzz's standard attacks (Foul Play and Knock Off) are Dark type, giving Terrakion another +1 attack every time it uses one. Lucario has access to Justified as well, but only through Dream World; make of that what you will.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 308-364 (101.3 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 110-130 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 382-452 (125.6 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 90-106 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO)


Both mons get easy OHKOs here even if Mawile got an Intimidate in while Lucario/Terrakion boosted, then Mega Evolved on the next turn. Mawile-M can easily OHKO both Lucario and Terrakion with unboosted Play Rough, but will be outsped and OHKOed by both mons.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 286-337 (85.6 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 320-378 (95.8 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


Here neither Lucario nor Terrakion has a guaranteed OHKO, because not only do they occasionally fall short thanks to damage rolls, Skarmory also has Sturdy. It's worth noting that Skarmory 2HKO's Lucario in return with Brave Bird, so Lucario can't just come in and rack up boosts.

The Revengers

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 499-589 (123.5 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 266-315 (65.8 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 426-502 (151.6 - 178.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 559-659 (138.3 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Moveslots used: Lucario 3 (SD+EQ+Iron Tail) vs Terrakion 3 (SD+EQ+Stone Edge). Here it's worth noting that the ONLY move Lucario's running that will one hit KO Azumarill before it OHKOs him is Iron Tail, which has sketchy 75% accuracy. Even Stone Edge does better then that! And given that if you miss that Azumarill will OHKO with Superpower, then switch out or Belly Drum to +6, that 5% extra miss chance can result in a lot of losses!

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 868-1024 (242.4 - 286%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 581-684 (162.2 - 191%) -- guaranteed OHKO


This is a somewhat unrealistic calc since it assumes that the opponent will not bring Garchomp in on a free switch and slaughter the Earthquake weak sweepers on the field, but it was in the "counters to this core" post above so in it goes. Lucario still OHKOs without access to Ice Punch, but it's closer. So I won't count the moveslot against him there.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 354-419 (130.1 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 355-419 (130.5 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 190-224 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 1591-1872 (584.9 - 688.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 272-322 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)


Ouch. Lucario clearly loses out here as he is always outsped and OHKOed by unboosted Pinsir-M and cannot return the favor with Extremespeed, EVEN AT +2, unless Pinsir-M evolved earlier in the match, switched out, switched back in, and took SR damage. However, Terrakion will survive one attack from Mega Pinsir, allowing it to eliminate Pinsir-M before fainting from LO recoil.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 329-387 (110.4 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
(252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 286-337 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 368-433 (123.4 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 2454-2891 (823.4 - 970.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 234-276 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)


One of the only times having a priority move is useful to Lucario, apparently. Lucario secures an easy kill with +2 Extreme Speed (outpacing Talonflame's +1 priority Brave Bird), with an 87% chance to OHKO or trade kills when it falls just short of the damage mark, allowing Talonflame to OHKO with Brave Bird and knock itself out in the process. Terrakion, on the other hand, also OHKOs Talonflame, but is NOT OHKOed by any of Talonflame's moves, even after one turn of LO recoil.
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I was only somewhat surprised at the results when running these calcs. Even when we give Lucario a free SD boost, he needs 7 moves (SD/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Ice Punch/Iron Tail/Close Combat/Extremespeed) in order to secure kills against all of the core's counters. Terrakion wielding the same boost, on the other hand, needs only 4 (SD/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Close Combat) to beat the same counters, on top of naturally having higher Attack and Speed then Lucario. It even SURVIVES some attacks that would OHKO Lucario and hits back, allowing it to at least trade kills.

And the fabled priority movepool of Lucario (which I admit I built up in my post yesterday)? IT'S ONLY USEFUL AGAINST ONE POKEMON ON THIS LIST! AND EVEN THEN IT'S NOT A GUARANTEED OHKO.

If we use physical Lucario, there is no reason not to replace it with Terrakion, who has less counters and accomplishes the same tasks without having to have 7 moveslots to do it. Mixed/Special Lucario may not be Lucario's best set, per se, but at least those sets are not immediately outclassed by Terrakion.

EDIT:

Lucario has a steel type and better synergy with Latias, I'm not sure why your posting all these calcs, of course Lucario isn't going to match Terrakion in damage output (emphasis mine). SD Lucario also plays extremely differently from SD Terrakion. Lucario isn't supposed to be trying to OHKO stuff, it's a late game cleaner, taking out weakened Pokemon with Extremespeed or the appropriate coverage move.
Are we talking about Lucario as a sweeper or Lucario as a revenge killer?

If we're talking about Lucario as a sweeper, then damage output (and the number of coverage moves it takes to get that damage output) DOES matter. You'll notice that I'm not disputing that Lucario's damage is enough to do the job MOST of the time, IF he is carrying the right coverage move at that particular moment. There's an essential problem with that: YOU DO NOT GET TO HAVE 7 MOVES AT ONCE. Sweeper Lucario is going to be walled by some number of the pokemon I listed no matter what, unless we are Baton Passing him boosts or playing the 6 Moveslot metagame in Pokemon Showdown's debug mode. It doesnt matter whether Lucario's sweep happens to start late game or mid game, the counters are still the same whether you like it or not. You can't just handwave away calcs with "that pokemon won't be at full health when we fight it" because you don't get to decide that; only your opponent's play does.

If we're talking about Lucario as a revenge killer, then this thread got seriously reframed (with some serious goalpost moving on your part) and I have even more reason to be worried about Lucario being outclassed because revenge killing Lucario is now in competition with Talonflame and Pinsir-M. Extreme Speed is now in competition with STAB priority Brave Bird and STAB Aerilate Quick Attack (or Return because Pinsir-M is so damn fast as-is).

And wait, suddenly Terrakion has no defensive synergy with Latias but Lucario does somehow? Terrakion and Lucario can both pass Earthquakes to Latias completely safely. On top of that, Lucario can pass Fire attacks as well. Terrakion can pass Water and Grass attacks. Both of them can switch back in on non-Pursuit Dark attacks aimed at Latias and get bonus attack (although Lucario only gets it from Dream World, denying him 4th gen tutor moves, which may or not be important). The synergy is the same.

But my favorite part of that post is where Tbolt talks about how Terrakion doesn't come anywhere near Lucario's late-game sweeping power. When Terrakion has higher base Attack and Speed.
 
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#30
Lucario has a steel type and better synergy with Latias, I'm not sure why your posting all these calcs, of course Lucario isn't going to match Terrakion in damage output. SD Lucario also plays extremely differently from SD Terrakion. Lucario isn't supposed to be trying to OHKO stuff, it's a late game cleaner, taking out weakened Pokemon with Extremespeed or the appropriate coverage move. Terrakion doesn't even come close to Lucario's ability to sweep lategame really.
 

PttP

GET OFF MY LAWN
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#31
The calculations that shinyskarmory has chosen were horribly biased and as such, I will run through the calculations I disagree with. The bias stems greatly from the fact that he has chosen to use a +Attack nature for Terrakion, which is extremely unrealistic. You will notice that I use +Attack natured Lucario, which may seem unfair, but Lucario can run that nature because it has Extreme Speed. On the other hand, if Terrakion uses a +Attack nature, it will be horrible. For the sake of fairness, I will use a Lucario with the moveset of Swords Dance, Close Combat, Extreme Speed, and Earthquake.

Clefable:
The Clefable calcs you posted did not show the true scenario for two reasons. One (which was pretty funny) was that you completely neglected to show Clefable's Moonblast on Terrakion while providing a Moonblast calculation on Lucario. Secondly, you used a suboptimal spread of 252 HP / 0 Def, when the most effective and used spread is 252 HP / 252 Def+. With that in mind, Terrakion's calcs look like:

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-220 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm not going to bother with Lucario calcs because I know that it loses to Clefable regardless, but Terrakion doesn't fair any better than Lucario in this matchup.

Gliscor and Landorus-T

I cannot lie, the moveset I chose lacks Ice Punch, so Lucario loses in both of these scenarios. I guess at this point it's just a matter if you want to lose to Aegislash or Gliscor/Landorus-T, but that's getting away from the point. Again, this calc is horribly biased because of the spread chosen.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Landorus-T: 265-312 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 324-384 (100.3 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So Terrakion isn't winning that encounter.

Mandibuzz

Close Combat OHKOs after Stealth Rock, but you argue that SR is hard to keep up due to the prevalence of Defog. Logically speaking though, wouldn't it make sense that Mandibuzz would be the team's Defogger? That would mean that to prevent SR from being on the field, it would have had to switched into SR at some point in the game, causing 25% damage, and using Defog. Assuming the opponent brings in a counter on the turn Mandibuzz used Defog, it would have to switch out the next turn, meaning it got 6% in recovery back, leaving it at 81%. Now the next time it switches into Lucario, in a perfectly ideal situation (which rarely happens) it will still be at 81% meaning it gets...OHKOed by Close Combat. I don't think this calculation is as one-sided as you made it appear.

Azumarill

By far the most cherrypicked calculation. You seem to have forgotten that 1) Azumarill is a Water-type, and 2) Terrakion is a Rock-type. Which leads to:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So yes, that calculation of Lucario getting 70% with an Extreme Speed is much more important than you are leading it on to be.

Pinsir

Ouch. Lucario clearly loses out here as he is always outsped and OHKOed by unboosted Pinsir-M and cannot return the favor with Extremespeed, EVEN AT +2, unless Pinsir-M evolved earlier in the match, switched out, switched back in, and took SR damage. However, Terrakion will survive one attack from Mega Pinsir, allowing it to eliminate Pinsir-M before fainting from LO recoil.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 190-224 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This doesn't even make sense. If Pinsir switches into SR (in any form) it loses to Lucario. Extreme Speed outpaces Pinsir so I don't get why you are making it seem like Lucario loses this scenario. Terrakion is faster than Pinsir anyway so this scenario doesn't even discredit or favor one Pokemon over the other.

Talonflame

You're making it seem like taking 80% is not a big deal when compared to the 0% Lucario takes.

Meanwhile, Lucario's main niche is priority which is something you do not seem to appreciate. The fact that Lucario has a chance of sweeping a team that still has Lati@s (among other Pokemon) is a niche it has over Terrakion.


For those that still think mix / special Lucario should be used over physical Lucario because of their surprise factor, I ask, what exactly do you beat that physical Lucario could not? I have posed this question many times on IRC while having it consistently ignored. If mix / special gets outclassed by physical, then I don't think the using those sets would be the best idea. The physical set is the only set that should be considering when making this CAP.
 
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DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#32
Although Special Lucario was plenty relevant in past generations and while Lucarionite was available, it's thoroughly outclassed by the Physical set and is valuable as little more than a lure in today's metagame. Nasty Plot Lucario rose to prominence when Lucario was firing off Adaptability-powered Aura Spheres and Flash Cannons and outsped nearly all of the metagame. In fact, Nasty Plot Mega Lucario was so fast that it could often forgo priority and just crush its counters with Dark Pulse, revenge killers be damned. Special Lucario was a fringe Pokemon last generation and has only gotten worse this generation with the Aura Sphere nerf. There's plenty more to say about why Special Lucario is not the Pokemon we should be building our team around, but it's been covered well in this thread. You're not beating regular Lucario's counters with Special Lucario, and you're certainly not sweeping a team with one. From this point forward, we are moving forward with Physical Lucario.

However, there is another Lucario set worth discussing: 4 attacks Lucario. Two of the most common criticisms of Lucario are that it does not have sufficient opportunity to set up a Swords Dance boost and that it does not have enough moveslots to handle enough of its counters. A Lucario set that eschews Swords Dance for additional coverage will allow it to pose a greater threat to Pokemon such as Aegislash, Landorus-Therian, and Gliscor simultaneously. Although I'm definitely not committed to the idea of running Lucario as a wallbreaker rather than a sweeper, I'd like to see it discussed.

The Physical vs. Special Lucario debate was nice, but it's time to move on to what we would like in a partner for Physical Lucario and Latias and what role we would actually like Latias to perform in this core. Latias is largely featured as a pseudo-wallbreaker/supporter Pokemon, able to fire off Life Orb-powered Draco Meteors while healing itself with Roost and helping out the team with Defog. Although Defog is largely wasted on Lucario, Latias' defensive typing and ability to beat down Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur make Latias a useful teammate for Lucario. Furthermore, Latias lures in Steel-type opponents such as Bisharp and Ferrothorn that a keen player can switch Lucario in on. However, there are still Pokemon (Aegislash, most Fairies) that can handle the duo.

Please discuss the possibility of 4 attacks vs. Swords Dance+3 Attacks Lucario as well as CAP18's role in this core.
 
#33
I think it's important to look at what Latias is doing, seeing as everyone has different ideas.

What I'm seeing as the two most viable options.
Defog / Roost / Attack / Filler
Wish / Protect / Filler / Filler
Light Screen / Roost / Attack / Attack
Screen / Screen / Roost / Attack

Unless people want to tackle the small windows where Calm Mind is better than on Latios.
I agree. The way that I believe this thread has sort of turned so far, looking at past posts, is towards a common agreement that what makes Latias unique to this core, over Latios, is more so his Supportive and Defensive capabilities, rather than what he might be able to do Offensively. That said, I believe that the options you listed match up very well with this idea. Personally, I believe that Latias should be used for more of an assisting role, rather than a straight up stall-wall, meaning that option No.2 doesn't quite tickle my fancy. However, that is just a personal opinion, and every other one of these looks solid.

So, in response to DLC's post that got made five seconds before I started writing this sentence, (glad I didn't post this 5 seconds ago) I believe this is the kind of role Latias should play in this core. Mind you, I'm not exactly sure whether I favor a Light Screen set versus a Defog set, or what exactly Latias's one or two select moves should be, (though at the moment, I'm thinking something along the lines of Draco Meteor + Surf..) that's not the point! This particular kind of discussion is probably best suited in another step anyways, and the point that I am trying to make is that rather than deciding a specific movepool here and now, I believe posts like this regarding which roles Latias specifically, is best at filling, or what roles CAP 18 could fill, are extremely beneficial to this discussion.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
#34
I don't have much experience with either one, but I think that a Extreme Speed/Close Combat/Ice Punch/Earthquake moveset sounds like something we should be interested in looking at. The way I think that this would work best is if Latias plays a supporting role with moves such as (Healing) Wish and Dual Screens. CAP 18 could then make up for Lucario's lack of Swords Dance by being an attacker who can hurt most of Lucario's checks/counters, but is frail enough to need screens/recovery from Latias. In this way, all three benefit: CAP 18 gets longevity from Latais, Lucario gets its counters/checks worn out by CAP 18, and Latais gets all of its weaknesses resisted by Lucario.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Snowy Shib
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
#35
mowtom said:
I don't have much experience with either one, but I think that a Extreme Speed/Close Combat/Ice Punch/Earthquake moveset sounds like something we should be interested in looking at. The way I think that this would work best is if Latias plays a supporting role with moves such as (Healing) Wish and Dual Screens. CAP 18 could then make up for Lucario's lack of Swords Dance by being an attacker who can hurt most of Lucario's checks/counters, but is frail enough to need screens/recovery from Latias. In this way, all three benefit: CAP 18 gets longevity from Latais, Lucario gets its counters/checks worn out by CAP 18, and Latais gets all of its weaknesses resisted by Lucario.
The set doesn't seem too bad, really. Crunch might be useful to take on the ghosts that Latias fears, but things like Gengar will be faster than Lucario anyway. I know that there's been some attention to the fairy type being something that is difficult for Latias/Lucario to deal with, but I think ghosts deserve some more conversation in that respect, too. If we're considering 4-attack Lucario, then Extreme Speed seems to be a very likely candidate; however, neither Lucario's Extreme Speed of his fighting STAB will affect ghosts. Even with the possibility of 4 attacking moves, Lucario still struggles with four move slot syndrome. I suppose Earthquake could be lost in favor of Crunch, seeing as CC will deal with steels anyway, though losing out in ground coverage does have it's risks, and once again, Lucario's speed doesn't let him hit some ghosts to start with.

In order to help out the core, CAP18 needs to do more than receive support from Latias, it also needs to deal with the threats Lucario can't deal with, as well as help out Latias's longevity in making sure she doesn't die to ghosts, etc. In terms to how the core functions together, we can come up with some vague ideas here but without poll jumping I'm finding it difficult to come up with some definitive, concrete examples... In making a "core" we're trying to shell up Lucario's resistances as being suitable to support Latias, but realistically Lucario can't come in and tank hits. He can maybe take some bug moves and benefits from a dark hit via Justified, but he can't take that much offensive pressure off of Latias, especially when facing targets that are faster than himself. As a result, I think CAP18 needs to balance being able to take out opponents that Lucario can't take out with the prospect of providing some sort of support or defensive synergy to Latias.
 
#36
As several of the above calcs showed, SR is extremely important for SD Luke to function, especially against MPinsir, MCharY, and Talonflame. Yes, those last two would be handled by SR with or without Luke, but SD Luke gets many kills with SR he wouldn't get otherwise, including Mandibuzz, Thundurus and Deoxys-S and Mega Medicham (although they were almost guaranteed before), Azumarill (though it's still only 62.5% chance without Spikes, and of course if Azu entered upon rocks twice, he dies), Latios, Latias (though still not guaranteed), and of course the first three I mentioned.
When it comes to 4 attacks Luke, it gives him much better coverage, but I don't think he really needs it if we do the CAP right. We are making a new pokemon specifically made to help Luke in a core, so of course Luke won't need to handle everything by himself. SD Luke just has so much more power, I don't think a 4 attack Luke is the way to go. If he was faster or his Extreme Speed was more powerful unboosted, I would go for it.

Based on the two above paragraphs, I think CAP18 should be an offensive hazard setter. This way, SD Luke would be able to get much more kills, as well as have a partner to help with his 4MSS. I think CAP18 should be able to have both ground and ice coverage, if not a STAB, because that way Luke could run either Quake or Ice Punch himself, and not be forced to run one or the other. I also think it should beat some of his counters while sharing others, because he would then best be paired with Luke as opposed to MPinsir. Specifically, I think he needs to counter Aegislash, Sylveon, Mega Gardevior, and Garchomp, but when it comes what to lose to I don't have enough knowledge to know. However, I know CAP18 needs to lose to Rotom-W, Skarmory, and Thundurus-I, to prevent MPinsir from taking advantage of CAP18. Finally, many of CAP18's counters need to be countered by Luke, so that Luke gets more setup opportunities.

Regarding Latias, I think her role should be using (Healing) Wish or Screens. Both could work fine, depending on how CAP18 turns out. Defog may be great, but not in a core with an offensive hazard setter, especially when said hazards are so important for SD Luke.

In summary: I think SD Luke is the way to go; CAP18 should be an offensive hazard setter; and Latias could be either a Wish passer or a Screens setter.
 
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#37
I want to bring up something that I only thought of now that DLC posted about wallbreaking with Lucario. And I think it works out with a multitude of Latias sets, each having a different spin.

I think that we should focus on 4 Attacks Wallbreaking Lucario.
Thinking something like High Jump Kick or Close Combat / Crunch / Poison Jab / ExtremeSpeed.

Latias' role in this is to provide support to make Lucario first be able to scout and eliminate whichever of it's switchins would be coming. Or to have CAP18 take advantage of them.
- Defog would remove hazards, which provides Luke with longevity with a Life Orb.
- Tailwind would allow for some awesome opportunities to get rid of some switchins like Rotom-W.
- Light Screen lets Luke take some neutral attacks and do serious damage back.

CAP18's role in this would be to become the new cleaner. One that has the ability to firstly, set-up on weakened Aegislash, resist fairies, and to have difficulty beating on its own, the things that Luke would be breaking down like Skarm and Rotom-W.
I'm thinking that the core would have trouble with Gliscor and Venusaur as well depending on what CAP 18 can do. However I think that to break these CAP18 will either need to hit them STAB super effectively or possibly STAB neutral with a boost.
 
#38
This is why I don't think 4 attack Luke would be the way to go: he's simply not powerful or fast enough without boosting. He needs Extreme Speed to be decent vs offensive mons, but if you just want him to wall break, maybe he doesn't need ESpeed, and will still outspeed walls. But:

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-169 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 216-255 (76.5 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Skarm can 2HKO Luke while Luke cannot 2HKO back. Even without the defense drop from CC, Skarm still 2HKOs. That is, Skarm beats non SD Luke. That is simply not good enough. Yes, Skarm will be nearly dead, but there are plenty of wallbreakers who can KO Skarm without getting KO'd themselves. Also:

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 235-278 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 250-295 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
which is an 87.5% chance to OHKO after LO recoil and CC's defense drop. So both of the main bulky mons Luke is supposed to be breaking down he dies to in the process.

What it comes down to is that Luke is simply not powerful enough to wallbreak without boosting and not fast enough to sweep without ESpeed. He really needs both to sweep, which means that SD is almost a necessity on Luke.

Also, Luke doesn't have longevity, with LO or not, with SR or not. Defog doesn't help Luke very much, really.
 
#39
Since a lot of people on IRC basically blew me off when I talked about my worries about Lucario being overtaken by Terrakion's higher base Attack and Speed (assuming for the sake of argument that Medicham-M doesn't occupy the same niche due to using a Mega slot), I thought I'd demonstrate my reasoning here with some calcs.

The problem is not so much that Lucario's DAMAGE is that inferior as the number of moves he requires to access it. Lucario's main niche over Terrakion is that he has priority; however, actually using said priority costs him kills that he simply can't get without hard hitting non-priority moves. However, not taking the priority causes him to outright lose to quite a few mons.

I'm working from Albacore's counter list in the third post, as even though some of the stuff in it aren't true counters to a Lucario, it is the best list we have so far. The following calculations assume that both Terrakion and Lucario have a Swords Dance set up (as both can run a Swords Dance set well). Let's run the numbers:

The Switch-ins

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 390-460 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 437-515 (134.8 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Moveslots used: Lucario 2 (SD+EQ), Terrakion 2 (SD+EQ). Both pokemon do alright here. It's worth noting that priority doesn't do shit for Lucario in this situation; in fact, it doesn't do shit for him in most situations, as you'll see from the rest of these calcs.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 538-634 (136.5 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO)
252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clefable: 300-355 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


This is the first place where Lucario actually does not lose out in sweeping power by taking a piece of his priority moveset. In every calc so far he has lost enough power by downgrading to priority that he allows himself to be straight OHKOed or OHKOed after his LO recoil. Coincidentally, it's also the first place where Lucario beats Terrakion. Keep in mind, though, that in order to accomplish this Lucario has to take a 75% accuracy move, and we already consider Stone Edge unreliable at 80%.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 519-612 (125.3 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 581-684 (140.3 - 165.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 380-450 (135.2 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)


Moveslots used: Lucario 4 (SD+EQ+CC+Iron Tail), Terrakion 4 (SD+Edgequake+CC)

Easy OHKOs for both mons here. Not much to say really, other then that Conkeldurr takes Close Combat and OHKOs in return without a SD for both mons.

By this point down the list, both mons have reached their full movesets; they literally don't have room for any more coverage or other moves. This is why the priority moves are not an important part of physical Lucario's niche; he simply can't afford to run them and give up crucial OHKOs on some of these mons.


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 536-634 (151.4 - 179%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 269-317 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (which turns into a 100% chance to OHKO when you consider Lucario's Life Orb recoil)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 300-355 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 224-266 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Here Lucario MUST have Ice Punch to avoid a OHKO from Gliscor. Terrakion here has a clear edge, as he can break through Gliscor with Stone Edge (with a high dice roll) or Stone Edge->Close Combat without having to run Ice Punch, not sacrificing any coverage against other mons, and only fainting upon the second turn of LO recoil if the enemy Gliscor rolls high on Earthquake. If Stone Edge misses on the first turn, Terrakion can also switch out to remain alive...Lucario has no such option.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 681-806 (178.2 - 210.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 341-402 (89.2 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 522-614 (185.7 - 218.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 380-448 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 426-504 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO))


So at the moment Lucario's doing fine, so long as it takes Ice Punch on its set. However, taking Ice Punch costs Lucario one of Iron Tail, Close Combat, or Earthquake, each of which is needed to break through at least one of the counters so far in the list. Terrakion, on the other hand, has had everything he needed so far with Edgequake+CC, OHKOing every enemy except for Clefable (who is 2HKOed and does not 2HKO Terrakion in return) and Gliscor, who has a low chance to be OHKOed but cannot OHKO Terrakion.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 347-409 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 291-343 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 385-455 (90.8 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(+2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 203-239 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 387-458 (91.2 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 647-764 (152.5 - 180.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(+2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 185-218 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)


Terrakion indisputably does better against physically defensive Mandibuzz, even when I threw Lucario a bone and gave him a 6th moveslot to use on Stone Edge (the others are covered by SD, CC, EQ, Ice Punch, and Iron Tail). Granted, Lucario does get the OHKO with Close Combat or Ice Punch if Stealth Rocks are on the field, but that's no guarantee in today's metagame with so many Defoggers running around.

It's also worth noting that both of Mandibuzz's standard attacks (Foul Play and Knock Off) are Dark type, giving Terrakion another +1 attack every time it uses one. Lucario has access to Justified as well, but only through Dream World; make of that what you will.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 308-364 (101.3 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 110-130 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 382-452 (125.6 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 90-106 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO)


Both mons get easy OHKOs here even if Mawile got an Intimidate in while Lucario/Terrakion boosted, then Mega Evolved on the next turn. Mawile-M can easily OHKO both Lucario and Terrakion with unboosted Play Rough, but will be outsped and OHKOed by both mons.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 286-337 (85.6 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 320-378 (95.8 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


Here neither Lucario nor Terrakion has a guaranteed OHKO, because not only do they occasionally fall short thanks to damage rolls, Skarmory also has Sturdy. It's worth noting that Skarmory 2HKO's Lucario in return with Brave Bird, so Lucario can't just come in and rack up boosts.

The Revengers

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 499-589 (123.5 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 266-315 (65.8 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 426-502 (151.6 - 178.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 559-659 (138.3 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Moveslots used: Lucario 3 (SD+EQ+Iron Tail) vs Terrakion 3 (SD+EQ+Stone Edge). Here it's worth noting that the ONLY move Lucario's running that will one hit KO Azumarill before it OHKOs him is Iron Tail, which has sketchy 75% accuracy. Even Stone Edge does better then that! And given that if you miss that Azumarill will OHKO with Superpower, then switch out or Belly Drum to +6, that 5% extra miss chance can result in a lot of losses!

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 868-1024 (242.4 - 286%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 581-684 (162.2 - 191%) -- guaranteed OHKO


This is a somewhat unrealistic calc since it assumes that the opponent will not bring Garchomp in on a free switch and slaughter the Earthquake weak sweepers on the field, but it was in the "counters to this core" post above so in it goes. Lucario still OHKOs without access to Ice Punch, but it's closer. So I won't count the moveslot against him there.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 354-419 (130.1 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 355-419 (130.5 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 190-224 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 334-394 (118.8 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 1591-1872 (584.9 - 688.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 272-322 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)


Ouch. Lucario clearly loses out here as he is always outsped and OHKOed by unboosted Pinsir-M and cannot return the favor with Extremespeed, EVEN AT +2, unless Pinsir-M evolved earlier in the match, switched out, switched back in, and took SR damage. However, Terrakion will survive one attack from Mega Pinsir, allowing it to eliminate Pinsir-M before fainting from LO recoil.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 329-387 (110.4 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
(252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 286-337 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 368-433 (123.4 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 2454-2891 (823.4 - 970.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 234-276 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)


One of the only times having a priority move is useful to Lucario, apparently. Lucario secures an easy kill with +2 Extreme Speed (outpacing Talonflame's +1 priority Brave Bird), with an 87% chance to OHKO or trade kills when it falls just short of the damage mark, allowing Talonflame to OHKO with Brave Bird and knock itself out in the process. Terrakion, on the other hand, also OHKOs Talonflame, but is NOT OHKOed by any of Talonflame's moves, even after one turn of LO recoil.
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I was only somewhat surprised at the results when running these calcs. Even when we give Lucario a free SD boost, he needs 7 moves (SD/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Ice Punch/Iron Tail/Close Combat/Extremespeed) in order to secure kills against all of the core's counters. Terrakion wielding the same boost, on the other hand, needs only 4 (SD/Earthquake/Stone Edge/Close Combat) to beat the same counters, on top of naturally having higher Attack and Speed then Lucario. It even SURVIVES some attacks that would OHKO Lucario and hits back, allowing it to at least trade kills.

And the fabled priority movepool of Lucario (which I admit I built up in my post yesterday)? IT'S ONLY USEFUL AGAINST ONE POKEMON ON THIS LIST! AND EVEN THEN IT'S NOT A GUARANTEED OHKO.

If we use physical Lucario, there is no reason not to replace it with Terrakion, who has less counters and accomplishes the same tasks without having to have 7 moveslots to do it. Mixed/Special Lucario may not be Lucario's best set, per se, but at least those sets are not immediately outclassed by Terrakion.

EDIT:


Are we talking about Lucario as a sweeper or Lucario as a revenge killer?

If we're talking about Lucario as a sweeper, then damage output (and the number of coverage moves it takes to get that damage output) DOES matter. You'll notice that I'm not disputing that Lucario's damage is enough to do the job MOST of the time, IF he is carrying the right coverage move at that particular moment. There's an essential problem with that: YOU DO NOT GET TO HAVE 7 MOVES AT ONCE. Sweeper Lucario is going to be walled by some number of the pokemon I listed no matter what, unless we are Baton Passing him boosts or playing the 6 Moveslot metagame in Pokemon Showdown's debug mode. It doesnt matter whether Lucario's sweep happens to start late game or mid game, the counters are still the same whether you like it or not. You can't just handwave away calcs with "that pokemon won't be at full health when we fight it" because you don't get to decide that; only your opponent's play does.

If we're talking about Lucario as a revenge killer, then this thread got seriously reframed (with some serious goalpost moving on your part) and I have even more reason to be worried about Lucario being outclassed because revenge killing Lucario is now in competition with Talonflame and Pinsir-M. Extreme Speed is now in competition with STAB priority Brave Bird and STAB Aerilate Quick Attack (or Return because Pinsir-M is so damn fast as-is).

And wait, suddenly Terrakion has no defensive synergy with Latias but Lucario does somehow? Terrakion and Lucario can both pass Earthquakes to Latias completely safely. On top of that, Lucario can pass Fire attacks as well. Terrakion can pass Water and Grass attacks. Both of them can switch back in on non-Pursuit Dark attacks aimed at Latias and get bonus attack (although Lucario only gets it from Dream World, denying him 4th gen tutor moves, which may or not be important). The synergy is the same.

But my favorite part of that post is where Tbolt talks about how Terrakion doesn't come anywhere near Lucario's late-game sweeping power. When Terrakion has higher base Attack and Speed.
I understand that Terrakion's damage output is generally greater than that of Lucario's, but remember that this is a CORE, not an assessment of one poke. Besides, I vouched for Terrakion in the Concept Assessment 1 thread as well, but DetroitLolCat has spoken, and so we will focus on Lucario. If you want to use CAP 18 with Terrakion on the ladder, be my guest. But please be constructive here.
 

Agile Turtle

formerly aqueous tortoise
#40
Please discuss the possibility of 4 attacks vs. Swords Dance+3 Attacks Lucario
4attacks lucario shouldnt even be considered imo. If we were gonna do 4 attacks, wecould make a choice scarf luke (which makes us lose out on versatility), or assault vest luke (which we don't have enough bulk for). We could also use life orb with four attacks, but for all 3 sets i just mentioned, lucario would be outclassed for. Not to mention lucario simply does not have enough power for it. Lucario needs a boost from swords dance.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 390-460 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 195-231 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 296-350 (98.6 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 148-175 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 147-174 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

These are all mons that ohko luke, do I really need to continue?
 
#41
Defog might not help Lucario, but there are five other pokemon in the mix that it sure would help for. I'm of the opinion that CAP18 should be able to clear hazards, or set them, but in more of an offensive capacity rather than a dedicated set surrounding it. If CAP18 can force Aegislash out for fear of a KO, then the current biggest spinblocker in the tier is essentially rendered useless. Running Rapid Spin alongside an offensive set with high powered Fire, Ground, Dark or Ghost STAB could really give CAP18 a significant role in the OU metagame, reducing the reliance on Defog and letting a team set up hazards on the opposing side while keeping their own clear. CAP18 could also sacrifice coverage for more utility, but before its set is revealed, the opponent will need to act under the assumption that it could be a significant offensive threat.

If Latias isn't forced to run Defog, then she can spend her efforts keeping the rest of the team healthy with Wish, or improving their survivability with screens + Roost, which both 4 attack Luca and 3 attack + SD Luca would really appreciate. With the extra bulk, Lucario might even be able to grab more than one SD boost and clean house with Extremespeed.

As far as Latias' set goes, pretty much all that is /required/ is Draco Meteor; the stat drop means you're going to need to be switching in and out a lot, which means having a CAP which can take attacks which would hurt Latias (Fairy, Dragon, Ice, Dark) would be very helpful.

The thing is, this core functions, seemingly, by being able to provide significant momentum, and force switches all over the place. CAP18 would do well to take advantage of the amount of switches, while being able to provide momentum of its own to keep the ball rolling.
 
#42
Yoshuriken said:
I think CAP18 should be able to have both ground and ice coverage, if not a STAB, because that way Luke could run either Quake or Ice Punch himself, and not be forced to run one or the other. I also think it should beat some of his counters while sharing others, because he would then best be paired with Luke as opposed to MPinsir. Specifically, I think he needs to counter Aegislash, Sylveon, Mega Gardevior, and Garchomp, but when it comes what to lose to I don't have enough knowledge to know. However, I know CAP18 needs to lose to Rotom-W, Skarmory, and Thundurus-I, to prevent MPinsir from taking advantage of CAP18. Finally, many of CAP18's counters need to be countered by Luke, so that Luke gets more setup opportunities.
Brammi said:
CAP18's role in this would be to become the new cleaner. One that has the ability to firstly, set-up on weakened Aegislash, resist fairies, and to have difficulty beating on its own, the things that Luke would be breaking down like Skarm and Rotom-W.
I'm thinking that the core would have trouble with Gliscor and Venusaur as well depending on what CAP 18 can do. However I think that to break these CAP18 will either need to hit them STAB super effectively or possibly STAB neutral with a boost.
MudcrabDL said:
Running Rapid Spin alongside an offensive set with high powered Fire, Ground, Dark or Ghost STAB could really give CAP18 a significant role in the OU metagame, reducing the reliance on Defog and letting a team set up hazards on the opposing side while keeping their own clear.
I do very much agree with what is being said here. I do like the point that Yoshuriken brings up about Lucario's limited movepool, as the solution provided, (that being our new CAP could learn moves to cover some of the bases Lucario could but won't always cover, given the versatility involving his moveset) is a valid concept involving active teamwork between CAP 18 and Lucario. The matter of fact that there are more than likely to be multiple interchangeable Lucario sets, however, may interfere with this, just out of sensibility. For example, trying to get an Ice type attack as well as a Ground type attack into the new CAP's movepool, (whose typing and stats are almost certain to be different than Lucario's) may lead to some problems such as 18's movepool being excessively cluttered. However, Brammi and others point out that Gliscor will be a problem, and 'flavour' aspects are a whole 'nother world of pain and agony, so.. I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there? Anyway, I do agree, at least partially, with the idea of the new CAP assisting Luke's versatility issues.

As in regards to Brammi.. Yeah, I agree... I mean, the joke.. Is a joke... But not really so much... For serious though, yeah, Fire. Also, with the concept of flaming, burning, relentless, Flare Blitz's on the horizon in mind, what is said in your post, Brammi, checks out with this idea pretty well. A fire type would have troubles with Wash-tom, make Aegislashes scream like little girls, resist the alluring powers of cotton candy, and much, much more. Venusaur might cause some problems, (Mega-Venusaur at least) with Thick Fat and such, plus a hypothetical CAP like this would wreck skarm's for days, but still. The possibilities align. However, Gliscor is still a thing, which... is great... On the other hand, this is where the whole versatility idea could come into play. Let's say for example, this CAP were to get Ice Punch, to cover Lucario's bases, and BOOM. Gliscor is no longer a problem.

Also, Mudcrab. Yeah, I guess...? Most of this is just opinionated, (and probably should be taken lightly) but I don't really see the point. Yes, it could give Latias another space for a move, and sure you wouldn't have to worry about clearing your own hazards, but still. As long as it's played right, one of Latias's best assets is being a Defogger, and wasting a spot for Rapid Spin on 18, defeats a lot of the possibilities regarding versatility and support that could be utilized with this core. Also, you describe why Draco Meteor is the only move really required for Latias, (which I sort of disagree with, but regardless) meaning that you would have still three open slots with which to assemble status moves, in turn, more than enough space to justify having Defog.

Well. That took awhile. This was... supposed to be short... Anyway, I suppose I have to put this now, at this point;

tl;dr:

I like and mostly agree with Yoshuriken's point regarding Lucario's versatility, Brammi's a cool person, and inadvertently proves my theory further, and nothing personal, but I disagree with your point Mudcrab.
 
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#43
TBH I don't really mind; I'm just brainstorming and discussing until we can move on with getting specifics down. It's pretty much agreed that CAP18 needs to fill in the holes that Lucario and Latias can't take care of with their typing (Fairy being pretty high on the list, some fast Dragons with coverage too) but I don't know if I see the CAP as a cleaner or a supporter yet; my first thought, just judging from the discussion so far, was like a fast, high-powered Starmie-esque offensive spinner, as it has been mentioned throughout this topic that A: Lucario likes having rocks up on the opposing side to assist with the sweep, and B: Latias has a huge supporting movepool that could be made use of, and maximizing her utility could involve running a Defogless set. It could also not, which brings in versatility to the core, as Defog and Rapid Spin have entirely different methods of prevention/punishment, and the possibility of both can be hard to prepare for.
 
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#44
This is why I don't think 4 attack Luke would be the way to go: he's simply not powerful or fast enough without boosting. He needs Extreme Speed to be decent vs offensive mons, but if you just want him to wall break, maybe he doesn't need ESpeed, and will still outspeed walls. But:

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 142-169 (42.5 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 216-255 (76.5 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Skarm can 2HKO Luke while Luke cannot 2HKO back. Even without the defense drop from CC, Skarm still 2HKOs. That is, Skarm beats non SD Luke. That is simply not good enough. Yes, Skarm will be nearly dead, but there are plenty of wallbreakers who can KO Skarm without getting KO'd themselves. Also:

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 235-278 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 250-295 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
which is an 87.5% chance to OHKO after LO recoil and CC's defense drop. So both of the main bulky mons Luke is supposed to be breaking down he dies to in the process.

What it comes down to is that Luke is simply not powerful enough to wallbreak without boosting and not fast enough to sweep without ESpeed. He really needs both to sweep, which means that SD is almost a necessity on Luke.

Also, Luke doesn't have longevity, with LO or not, with SR or not. Defog doesn't help Luke very much, really.
Wallbreaking Luke would be using High Jump Kick which bumps it up to 97% chance of 2hko after rocks.
 

ginganinja

It's all coming back to me now
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#45
Wallbreaking Luke would be using High Jump Kick which bumps it up to 97% chance of 2hko after rocks.
As well as cockblocking yourslef vs something that runs Protect, or if your are unlucky enough to face a team that has a Ghost type, since you risk a 50/50 every time you use your STAB move...
 

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#46
Okay, we're going to move forward with Swords Dance Lucario and Offensive Defog Latias as the two sets to build our team around. 4 Attacks Lucario, although a decent wallbreaker, is arguably outclassed by better wallbreakers and relies heavily on prediction. Furthermore, we can still run one coverage move on SD Lucario. Lucario will serve as a sweeper in our core, and Latias will provide the team with hazard clearance (directed more at CAP18 than Lucario, obviously), switch-in opportunities from its defensive typing, and powerful Draco Meteors and Psyshocks to dent the opponent's team.

Now, the final order of business is to determine what role CAP 18 should have in our core. We currently have many Pokemon covered between Lucario and Latias, but we're still up a creek without a paddle against some Pokemon such as Aegislash and most Fairy-type Pokemon. Should guaranteeing a Lucario sweep be our main priority, or should we be building a Pokemon that can take advantage of Latias and Lucario's support and sweep on its own? Should we build a pivot that Lucario and Latias can fall back on if they're met with a counter? Should this Pokemon be able to accomplish one or more of the above roles?

The current (and final) topic of discussion for Concept Assessment 2 is what role CAP18 will have in this core? This thread will close in 24 hours.
 
#47
Pivot. I've discussed a lot along these lines already, and am trying to stay on track and directly answer the question at hand, so hopefully this will be short. But in short, from a functional stand point, the only thing Latias and Lucario need is a third, viable colleague to do what they can't. And that's it. Because in truth, Lucario was built to sweep, and doesn't generally have a problem in doing so. Latias, while more-so on the defensive side of the spectrum, doesn't really have any problems doing it's job either. Except, of course, in the face of the almighty counter, the Pokemon that neither of the two can wreck, or the one thing that the duo themselves are wrecked by. So in reality, wouldn't the new CAP be accomplishing all of the roles presented, at once by being a pivot, and if so why did I list only 'Pivot' as my opinion? Well, in answer to this rhetorical question, ghost-me, 1.)...Yes? The reason for my uneasy and delayed 'yes', is due to the matter of fact that technically this is true. However, saying that the new CAP should play all of these roles, implies that there is more than just a resistance gap in our current core, that the combined dynamics of both Lucario and Latias don't cover enough ground. And, No.2.) this is false. What our current core can do, does not need 'beefing'. It's what it can't handle that needs to covered in more detail. We need something that can take hits from Fairies, and hit harder, something that can break an Aegislash while resisting Shadow Ball's, and most importantly, something that can truly assist our current core, rather than act as their fanboy (a person who watches from the sidelines, often helping in minuscule kinds of ways, to draw the connection). So, yeah. Pivot.
 
#48
In addition to being a pivot, having some way to give Lucario some recovery through passing a Wish or Healing Wish (hopefully not) or something. Lucario needs the rejuvenation from time to time to remain a consistent threat in OU.
 
#49
In addition to being a pivot, having some way to give Lucario some recovery through passing a Wish or Healing Wish (hopefully not) or something. Lucario needs the rejuvenation from time to time to remain a consistent threat in OU.
Since we're now focusing on Lucario as a Swords Dance sweeper, I don't think the recovery is as important as it used to be. SD Lucario isn't gonna get to come in multiple times; it really only gets to set up ONCE, and if it doesn't sweep then we'll have to look for another way to win the match. Plus, Wish and Healing Wish are both already covered by Latias, who has access to both plus additional utility.

No matter where we go with CAP18 in terms of supporting vs. pivoting vs. clearing the way for Luke, here's what CAP 18 MUST DO for the project to be successful.

  1. CAP 18 should resist Fairy type attacks. Obviously this limits our selection in the Typing stage a little bit. Currently, though, we have SpD Latias and Lucario, one of which is weak to Fairy and the other of which is neutral (and Lucario, now that he's this core's designated sweeper, really shouldn't be coming in on many attacks at all). CAP 18 needs to be a typing that not only resists Fairy, but takes as much of the defensive synergy's burden off of Lucario as possible.
  2. CAP 18 should have offensive presence of some kind. If CAP18 does not pose an offensive threat, there will be no way for it to set up for Lucario switch-ins, as it will have very limited ability to force switches and may become bait for an enemy setup. We're supposed to be setting up for a friendly Lucario, not an enemy one. I'm not saying CAP18 needs to outright sweep (it doesn't) but it needs to be able to hit respectably hard against uninvested enemy sweepers and bulky attackers in order to do its job properly.
  3. CAP 18 should keep in mind the mixed nature of this core. By this, I mean that we are running not a full offense core like Terrakion+Salamence would have been, nor a full defense core like Chestnaught+Charizard-MX would have been. Our core is mixed with Latias being defensive and Lucario being offense. Therefore, we should design CAP 18 to have defensive synergy primarily with Latias and offensive synergy primarily with Lucario. Defensive synergy with Lucario isn't as important because we now intend Lucario to come in once, set up, and sweep, and offensive synergy with Latios that's too strong could lead to Latios usurping Latias' position.
Those things are a must regardless of what CAP18 ends up doing to set up Lucario and pass hits back and forth with Latias. Below are some of my informal suggestions for the way we could go with this mon. Some of them will probably end up being more popular then others-I just want us to have an idea of every direction we could possibly go so that we consider every option.
  • CAP18 could focus on field control-laying a layer or two of our own entry hazards and keeping theirs off the field to allow Latias to run Thunder Wave (which helps patch up Lucario's speed) or another attacking move. There are numerous benefits friendly entry hazards give Lucario; as my calcs above show, they help to secure several important OHKOs and allow Lucario to take Extreme Speed without worrying as much on speed. In particular, Stealth Rock helps to secure kills on Pinsir-M and Talonflame with Extreme Speed, and Sticky Web helps to patch up Lucario's speed issues (and also allows us a secondary investigation into how well Sticky Web benefits a priority-focused mon like Lucario).
  • CAP18 could be a late game, low setup Baton Pass-fighting normally with a small, 2 or 3 move core for most of the match before Baton Passing speed boosts to Lucario later on. This would be highly unusual for a baton passer-most passers outside of full BP teams (Ninjask, Scolipede, Venomoth, most SmashPassers) are really very weak in combat and only come in to pass boosts. By averting this trend, we could learn a lot about setting up Baton Passes and how much speed boosts really make a difference for Lucario in terms of allowing it to run coverage in lieu of Extreme Speed or perhaps making it less hesitant to throw out Close Combats instead of Extreme Speeds.
  • CAP18 could be a bulky pivot, focusing on giving the team a safe, all-purpose attack receiver who can quickly get back off the field for another pokemon. I am not so much in favor of this route because the metagame has too much mindless Volt Switch/U-turn spam as is and we may end up creating a "secondary" pairing of CAP18+VoltTurn mon. But this route does exist, and it's something we should consider.
  • CAP18 could be a powerful, hard hitting pokemon without setup moves. This will allow CAP18 to easily force switches and create opportunities for Lucario, but care should be taken to ensure CAP18 does not become the core's primary sweeper in this case.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
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#50
DetroitLolcat said:
what role CAP18 will have in this core?
Gonna repost part of my first post in this thread:
Given that our two Pokemon so far are very offensive in nature, the CAP should follow this trend. It should be able to check or at least beat 1 on 1 most of the Pokemon that trouble Latias and Lucario, while being able to threaten a big variety of Pokemon in general, so that each member of the core isn't easy to wall separately (something that Latias is already guilty of). Ideally, the CAP should be able to handle the Pokemon that threaten Latias and Lucario and take advantage of them, in order to lure or weaken some Pokemon that get in the way of Lucario and Latias, opening the way for them, and vice-versa. This means that it would be a desirable thing for the CAP and Lucario / Latias to have some similar checks and counters, as long as the CAP can damage those checks / counters enough for the other two to get past them.

A good example of an offensive partnership i would like to see from Lucario + CAP is CB Talonflame + CB Staraptor. Both Pokemon have similar checks and counters that can be worn down, such as Landorus-T, Hippowdon, and Slowbro, and both Pokemon can deal with Pokemon that trouble their partner, with Talonflame being able to deal with Skarmory, a hard counter to Staraptor, and Staraptor being able to handle Rotom-W and Heatran, two hard counters to Talonflame. Of course, we would have to take it one step further, because as you can see neither of those two Pokemon (Talonflame and Staraptor) can switch into the Pokemon that wall or check the other (Staraptor can't switch into Heatran or Rotom-W), they can just beat them 1 on 1.

A concern that has been presented here about Latias is that she is easy to trap with Pursuit users such as Tyranitar, Aegislash, and Bisharp. Lucario can already take advantage of Tyranitar and Bisharp in order to set up, so it would be nice if the CAP would be able to set up without much fear in the face of Aegislash, to make sure that no matter which Pursuit user the opponent employs, it's going to get punished for it.
So, basically, the CAP should be a set up sweeper that can check most of Aegislash, Fairy-types, Talonflame, and preferably Ground-types too, while having some similar counters with Lucario in order to soften them up for Lucario to clean, or vice-versa. Of course, to take attacks such as Choice Band Play Rough from Azumarill and Choice Band Brave Bird from Talonflame, the CAP would most likely have to be a bulky set up sweeper, something like TG Manaphy or BU Talonflame, rather than an all out offensive set up sweeper, such as Nasty Plot Thundurus or Swords Dance Mega Pinsir.
 
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