CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2

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paintseagull

paintseagull

pink wingull
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Through this series of polls, we'll be voting as a community on which concept we'd like to pursue for CAP 18. Make sure to read through each concept thoroughly; it is imperative that you understand what you're voting for here. Our slate of eight concepts was chosen by our Topic Leader, DetroitLolcat, from the Concept Submissions thread. See his concluding remarks here: link~

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New!: All competitive polls will consist of two rounds of ranked voting (24 hours each). In the first round, the preliminary ranking of candidates by PBV was decided. The top 3 have moved on to the second round of ranked voting. The Policy Review discussion that lead to this change is here.
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Dummy007
TRC.
capefeather

And here are their concepts:

Dummy007 said:
Concept: Major Third

General Description: A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.

Justification: Cores have always been an integral part of the metagame, whether you're running Talonflame/Staraptor to brute force everything, Slowbro/Amoonguss/Heatran for Regenerator-Leftovers stalling, or a whole team of Dragons + Magnezone. We've previously explored what it takes to make a successful partnership in CAP11 (Voodoom), but the metagame (and the simulator!) has changed dramatically since Voodoom's creation. I would also like to up the ante a little bit: Instead of just one, can we now take TWO Pokemon and find their missing piece? Whether we opt to build on an established two-Pokemon partnership or choose two previously unrelated Pokemon and put them together, I think that we can certainly find a Voodoom for a more offensive time.

Questions to Be Answered:
  • How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
  • Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
  • What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
  • How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
  • Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
  • Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
  • Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?
Explanation:
The hardest step in creating this CAP would almost undoubtedly be choosing which two Pokemon to pair up. Personally, I've enjoyed running Gourgeist-Super and Scarf Rotom-H together, but I haven't yet found a Water-type that can totally complete the two. The closest I've gotten is probably either Tentacruel or Gastrodon. Something that can handle Tyranitar, Mega Venu, and Specially Defensive Heatran equally well would certainly be nice here, but Tentacruel just isn't bulky enough (or maybe I just don't get lucky enough with Scald burns, idk) and Gastrodon is totally crippled by Toxic (and Mega Venu) and can't actually hit Tyranitar that hard. In turn, any core with a specially-oriented cleric (say Sylveon/Tyranitar or even Blissey/Tyranitar) can handle this core- but none of them can do it alone. (Sylveon and Blissey can be Tricked a Scarf, Ttar and Mega Venu can be Burned by WoW/Scald, Heatran can't stay in on the Water-type and won't enjoy a Scarf, either.) That's the kind of thing I'm going for.

Heck, we could even pick two random 'mons (e.g., Diggersby and Mega Gyarados) and try and make them work if we want more of a challenge. The majority of the customization of this CAP will probably come from the partner-choosing step; once we've settled that, the rest should be fairly straightforward. The one thing I absolutely want to avoid, though, is a third core member that can be run very reliably outside of the core. For example, if you were running Voodoom without either Zapdos or Togekiss, you weren't using it correctly. On the other hand, you can easily run Heatran outside of JelliCeleTran and have it perform really well.

Also, I think "lesser-used OU" should both include some upper-tier UUs/BLs (such as Kyu-B, Slowbro, and Metagross) and exclude anything above about #30 on the ladder (Volcarona). This way, we don't end up building something that makes, say, Tyranitar/Excadrill/CAP unwallable or Rotom-W/Gliscor/CAP unbreakable.
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TRC. said:
Concept: Why so slow?

General Description: A Pokemon that uses a combination of stats, typing, ability, and movepool to be able to set up the Sticky Web entry hazard consistently throughout a match, threaten the common Pokemon that could remove Sticky Web from play, and take advantage of Sticky Web itself.

Justification: Sticky Web is an interesting new entry hazard introduced in the recent games X and Y. It lowers the opponents Speed stat by one stage when they switch in, unless they are a Flying-type Pokemon or they have the ability Levitate. This has massive potential, particularly to aid a sweeper. So why is it rarely seen in OU? To put it simply, the only Pokemon that can learn Sticky Web have vast amounts of flaws. Smeargle can learn every move, but it is incredibly frail and therefore can not set up the hazard consistently throughout a match, allowing users of the moves Rapid Spin and Defog to clear the hazard. Galvantula has a good offensive typing, but like Smeargle, it is also frail and lacks switch-in opportunities. Shuckle has almost nonexistent offensive presence. Leavanny has a crippling 4x weakness to a common offensive typing. Ariados, Kricketune, and Masquerain are just plain unviable in OU. In order to explore the potential of Sticky Web, it requires a user of the move that can take advantage of it to the fullest.

Questions to be Answered:
  • What determines the reason why a Pokemon can not set up a hazard consistently? Is it because of low defensive stats and typing, or the fact that it doesn't force Pokemon out from an offensive point of view.
  • What sort of Pokemon would benefit from the presence of Sticky Web on the opponents side of the field?
  • What levels of Speed would a Pokemon need to have to benefit from Sticky Web itself, while also not being "fast enough already"?
  • Would this increase the viability of the common offensive Pokemon that are "slow" be metagame standards?
  • What does it take to potentially prevent the use of Rapid Spin or Defog, that one Pokemon can do within itself?
  • To threaten a user of Rapid Spin or Defog, will it do it in an offensive manner? The word "threaten" is somewhat ambiguous, however, will threatening a Pokemon defensively result in an inability to prevent that Pokemon from removing the hazard?
  • What Pokemon severely suffer from Sticky Web on their side of a field; what Pokemon require their specific Speed stat so much that being lower than it decreases their viability immensely?
Explanation: The presence of a Pokemon that uses Sticky Web to all of its possible advantages is a great way of exploring the usefulness of Speed stats as a whole. The most common users of Rapid Spin are Excadrill, Starmie, and Forretress. The most common users of Defog are [Mega] Scizor, Latios, Latias, and Gliscor. Now, there are many possible ways of threatening a Pokemon. For example, you could take advantage of type coverage. Starmie, Latias, and Latios are weak to Dark-, Ghost-, and Bug-type moves. Excadrill, Forretress, and [Mega] Scizor are weak to Fire-type attacks. Gliscor is weak to Ice-type attacks, and has poor Special Defense. Then there is the possibility of not threatening the Pokemon with attacking moves, but simply preventing it from using Rapid Spin or Defog. Immediately, a Ghost-type comes to mind as it prevents the usage of Rapid Spin, but Defog is becoming more and more popular now, and while there are very few ways of preventing this, there are ways of making an opponent weary of using it. Defiant and Competitive work well in this regard, as they risk the possibility of a Pokemon sweeping their team at the price of removing the hazard. In terms of specific Speed benchmarks for this Pokemon to take advantage of Sticky Web itself, this is something that needs to be researched, weighing in the benchmarks that specific Pokemon sit at, and seeing which is the point where things are considered "fast" and "very fast". Finally, ways of ensuring that this Pokemon can set up Sticky Web consistently is an important aspect of this Pokemon. High defensive stats is a simple option, but ability and movepool can also be helpful is this regard, specifically the ability to "force switches", guaranteeing setup opportunities in most cases, or the ability to switch in consistently without fear of being worn down. Recovery is also an option in this scenario.
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capefeather said:
Name: Hunting Beast

General Description: This Pokemon aims to counter ONE Pokemon in ANY team.

Justification: Concepts like Krilowatt's "Utility Counter" and Necturna's "Sketch Artist" have placed an emphasis on controlled versatility. However, the notion of controlled versatility frequently comes into conflict with the need for a Pokemon to have reasonably well-defined checks and counters. This concept is an attempt to marry the two by placing the emphasis on "hunting down" a key member of the opposing team, rather than trying to possess some kind of inherent versatility. This may also shed some light on the notion of "counterteaming" and help to mitigate its effects. Ideally, in any given match, it should be able to stymie one opposing Pokemon while being checked or countered by the others. While such an ideal is probably unreachable, it couldn't hurt to try our best!

Questions To Be Answered:
  • What existing Pokemon sell themselves on their ability to counter other Pokemon? How does this work out for them and why?
  • How valuable is a Pokemon's ability to counter a Pokemon in an arbitrary opposing team?
  • What similarities exist across different team archetypes? How can these similarities be exploited?
  • How should this Pokemon's profile of threats be constructed? Should we go after versatile "glues" or specialized roles?
  • What kind of build is best suited for such a role?
  • Can this Pokemon act as an "equalizer" and make certain teams more viable and less susceptible to counterteaming?
  • Will teams feel a strong need to adapt to this Pokemon, and if so, how can this Pokemon respond to such adaptations?
Explanation:

I suspect that a lot of people will think of Pokemon like Rotom Wash, Heatran and Ditto when thinking about this concept. Indeed, they do seem to fulfill this concept to an extent. Rotom Wash is often said to be good largely because of its ability to chase Talonflame around 5 months, as well as check a lot of other Pokemon. Heatran is similar with its formidable palette of resistances. Choice Scarf Ditto's often used as "insurance" against certain runaway sweepers. I suppose it's like countersurveillance. "He's hiding here, Imma hiding here!" However, all three kind of try to be "catch-all" utility counters, and Ditto isn't even all that great at it against anything bulky that doesn't resist its own STAB. Genesect, as well, was banned because its massive coverage and power allowed it to deal with a vast range of Pokemon. This concept is aimed more at teams than at Pokemon, gunning down specific targets rather than outgunning everything.

(By the way, you know how much money Genesect cost? I said, "bro just cut som-" and Dudley said, "Nooooo money money money." I said, "You know what, I swear to god man, honestly man?")

Anyway, I suppose this concept is kind of similar to DarkSlay's concept. The main difference is that his concept focuses on a Pokemon's role in a team, whereas mine focuses on roles in the opposing team. This concept is also more "objective" in our ability to assess it, while retaining a factor of perhaps seeking out the unknown. My hope is that this concept encourages participants to have a better understanding of the kinds of teams that are out there, and how they work.

Like I said before, I'm not sure that the ideal presented by this concept is even attainable in the strictest sense, or even what that would even mean exactly. We often say that CAP is about the journey, not the destination, and that will be even more true for a concept like this. Whether this concept is chosen or not, though, I have high hopes for this project. All I know, all I know, all I know, is we'll have the best CAP in the world, even better than Prime Minister Harper.

(btw this concept has been surprisingly difficult to name, despite the simple description...)
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This poll will be open for 24 hours.

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CAP 18 so far:

Leadership Team:

DetroitLolcat - Topic Leader
PttP - Ability Leader
jas61292 - Typing Leader
ginganinja - Movepool Leader
srk1214 - Stats Leader​
 
mezomi

mezomi

Dummy007

It looks like TRC is going to win this. While his concept was great, I would rather take part in designing a CAP with a broader concept like Dummy007's. A usable user of Sticky Web is needed though.
 
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