CAP 18 CAP 18 - Playtest

I'm thinking that krookidile would work pretty well against the core like this
Krookidile Leftovers
Intimidate
252SpD/240Spe/16HP
Knock off
Eq
Taunt
Sr

I gave it enough speed to speed creep max+ lucario, while the rest are dumped into special defense. sr wears down the core (especially volkraken) taunt prevents Latias from defogging them, eq is eq and hits two of the core for super effective damage and is a great stab in general, and knock off cripples things and kills Latias. Unfortunately, he is weak to the stab of lucario and volkraken and thus can't switch in on either.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
Question... Does Will-o-Wisp go through Substitute if you are using Infiltrator? If it does, it could put a stop to some sub boosters like.... I don't even know.
 
Question... Does Will-o-Wisp go through Substitute if you are using Infiltrator? If it does, it could put a stop to some sub boosters like.... I don't even know.
It does go through substitute and it also goes through screens so no worries-also an example of a sub booster could be something like mega Gyarados or mega Mawile
 
The problem here is that Threats can't be considered in a vacuum from type. Imagine trying to have a threats discussion where we're all assuming different weaknesses / resistances in our mental calculations of what CAP needs to do. Assuming none means people assuming unrealistic, hyperinflated stats in all areas. Typing also establishes how powerful our own STABs will be, which is important to know if your primary offense is going to be one of either Poison Jab/Knock Off/Foul Play/Sludge Wave/Dark Pulse or Fire Blast/Flare Blitz/Hydro Pump/Waterfall.
I'd agree for any other CAP, but in this scenario, typing wouldn't have played any part in the discussions, and rather, would of pointed to what type we needed to pick. Rather than saying "how much of the pie is Fire/Water able to eat," we'd clearly paint a picture of the entire pie and decide which typing can stomach most of it. (Or maybe we just needed a better typing discussion. I just know we came out of the threats discussions with more bitten off than we could chew.)

(The pie = threatening things that threaten Lucario/Latias and being threatened by things they counter.)
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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I'd agree for any other CAP, but in this scenario, typing wouldn't have played any part in the discussions, and rather, would of pointed to what type we needed to pick. Rather than saying "how much of the pie is Fire/Water able to eat," we'd clearly paint a picture of the entire pie and decide which typing can stomach most of it. (Or maybe we just needed a better typing discussion. I just know we came out of the threats discussions with more bitten off than we could chew.)

(The pie = threatening things that threaten Lucario/Latias and being threatened by things they counter.)
Concept Assessment did this when we selected our core. It was already split into two parts by DLC for that exact reason, before we even got to the typing discussion itself. In fact, DLC's first post on Concept Assessment 2 went looking for exactly what you're describing.

Threats is an assessment after typing to get a more concrete grasp on threats our CAP should or should not attempt to check / counter. Concept Assessment by contrast has always been a choke point for concerns like yours where we need better information on what we're trying to accomplish before we even get to typing, simply because Concept Assessment is designed to be flexible for these situations.
 
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Concept Assessment did this when we selected our core. It was already split into two parts by DLC for that exact reason, before we even got to the typing discussion itself. In fact, DLC's first post on Concept Assessment 2 went looking for exactly what you're describing.

Threats is an assessment after typing to get a more concrete grasp on threats our CAP should or should not attempt to check / counter. Concept Assessment by contrast has always been a choke point for concerns like yours where we need better information on what we're trying to accomplish before we even get to typing, simply because Concept Assessment is designed to be flexible for these situations.
Wow, I completely forgot about the second concept assessment. Yup, that's exactly what I meant, though my only qualm is we came out of it with very vague rules:

1. Can switch into Pokemon such as Aegislash that pose significant threats to both Lucario and Latias.
2. Can pose immediate offensive pressure against Pokemon that Lucario and Latias do not provide offensive pressure against.
3. Takes into consideration the Pokemon that Lucario can defeat that other, similar sweepers cannot defeat.
4. Serves as more than just a pivot against Pokemon that trouble the other members of this core.
I really feel we needed to be more precise with what our typing is supposed to accomplish - Fire/Water really spread us too thin becuase a lot of things weren't considered when the typing discussion. I'll edit this later with specifics after I've reread the discussion.

EDIT: Well, pretty much everything was covered in the first two posts... I'm really not sure where we went wrong then. CAP18 obviously doesn't fit the concept the way we imagined it should, but most of the steps in our process were VERY solid. Maybe it's just a bad voting decision by the community, but the only way to "fix" that is to weight votes for experienced contributes - which is a bad idea for other reasons. Idk, really excited to read what you guys talk about in PRC.
 
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Birkal

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I am just not having it with Volkraken. I laddered up to the Top 10 using a standard offense team with no CAP 18 involved. But any attempts at gaining some upward momentum with Volkraken has been tough. While it's very much a usable Pokemon, it doesn't strike me as a "playmaker" that can snag the match away. Rather, it serves as more of a support member that can come out early, tank a hit if needed, and threaten out with powerful STABs. Don't expect many glamorous sweeps here.

The two sets I've found to be the best are Assault Vest with Scald and the Scarf set. Both should use U-turn, in my opinion, since it's not like Volkraken gets that much coverage anyways. I haven't run any calculations, but I've been able to switch safely in with AV into pretty much any neutral special attack to threaten back with Analytic on the switch. Scald helps if you can snag the burn too. Scarf is weaker in general in this metagame due to all of the priority running around, but Volkraken still makes good use of it. U-turn is good enough for momentum. I think I've seen a few people run Destiny Bond on the Scarf set, which is kind of humorous.

I think the biggest thing holding Volkraken back, in terms of our design, is that we didn't splurge anywhere. It woulda stood out of we gave it 160 SpA, or a few more points in speed, or a slightly more diverse movepool, or even a more advantageous ability. But as it stands, Volkraken feels like a "standard" Pokemon with some strong options that can make a dent, but nothing that is a game changer. That's definitely not a bad thing, but I feel that a lot of people have been complaining about the singular dimensional of Volkraken. There's nothing wrong with how CAP 18 turned out, what matters is the conversations we had and the concepts we learned. I dunno about you all, but I feel that I've grown quite a bit as a player this CAP from the discussions we've had, so thank you all for them.

See y'all on the ladder!
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
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I topped the ladder (for the moment, at least) under "Altilt"

I tried out Volkraken for a bit, but it just hasn't worked out. After taking the first 2 losses on the account from people using non-volkraken teams vs me, I ended up dropping Volkraken all together and took a team I was using on the Suspect Ladder and slightly modified it. It was pretty clear after facing other teams using Volkraken in and outside of its intended core, that it really doesn't do anything. It couldn't accomplish much vs a standard team (especially slow sets), which is what really counts. It has strong BST and decent typing, but god its abilities really are worthless since they serve no use outside of basically its forced, incredibly tiny intended niche. The parts of this CAP obviously made sense individually, but I just feel that in general (this is all CAPs for the past long time, not just this one) where the parts are considered more than the whole due to the very segmented process of CAP, and when the CAP comes together, it's either everything it was supposed to be and more, or just completely falls apart. Volkraken was very much the latter. If Volkraken was in Pokemon, it'd be UU, BL at best, since it simply does not work. It has an awful speed tier, bulk that just barely works for its typing, and 135 SpA simply isn't a major selling point anymore.

Volkraken poorly supports Latias/Lucario core, and unlike Voodoom that miraculously supported Zapdos very well, Volkraken has essentially no niche in the meta, and cannot effectively support any core. You cannot run a slow set abusing analytic because you're already too naturally fast and going slow just means slower mons creep past you and kill you, and the bonus from switch-ins is negligible in the long run. Infiltrator effectively stops SubToxic Aegis and basically nothing else. Fire/Water without some form of recovery only serves to be a Stealth Rock weak burden while not offering the incredible power like Zards, Thundy, Talons, or Pinsir does. It doesn't have any sort of defensive or offensive niche that allows it to deal with almost any top threat. When Volcanion comes out, nobody will even use Volkraken in CAP anymore, Volcanion is essentially a straight upgrade since all the better parts of Volkraken are still really awful (his speed and abilities).

tl;dr Volkraken is, at best, a complete failure.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
I think CAP projects have become too strict after the Aurumoth fiasco. Granted, that thing was just absurdly overpowered, but we've reached the point where perfectly reasonable options like Overheat and Substitute on Volkraken were almost forbidden during the movepool stage.

If we were to rank Volkraken it would probably be somewhere around C, which is obviously not what this project intended since we aimed to turn Lucario and Latias into bigger threats.
I would suggest to add an additional stage from the next CAP project onwards where we discuss how strong the final product should be compared to the OU threats and then make a poll where we decide what rank it should be (S rank, A+ and so on). This way Volkraken's existance has at least served a purpose.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
I am using my normal OU team, except swapping my Mixed Scarf Hydreigon for Scarf Volkraken. I am having moderate success, except that using Hydreigon could be more beneficial... it's coverage and power is far superior to Volkraken and it is faster with harder hitting STABs. Along with access to good mixed offenses and Superpower to patch up against steels. Overall my Garchomp carries the team, while Volkraken would be cleaning up (Hydreigon's job). Garchomp soundly beats the core (i have sash). Overall... Volkraken is pretty weak and although it has a unique typing, it is outclassed by things like Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Infernape and Landorus-I as a wallbreaker. Even the core itself is kind of weak, something like a Garchomp or Kyurem-B has the potential to destroy the entire core.
 
I think CAP projects have become too strict after the Aurumoth fiasco. Granted, that thing was just absurdly overpowered, but we've reached the point where perfectly reasonable options like Overheat and Substitute on Volkraken were almost forbidden during the movepool stage.

If we were to rank Volkraken it would probably be somewhere around C, which is obviously not what this project intended since we aimed to turn Lucario and Latias into bigger threats.
I would suggest to add an additional stage from the next CAP project onwards where we discuss how strong the final product should be compared to the OU threats and then make a poll where we decide what rank it should be (S rank, A+ and so on). This way Volkraken's existance has at least served a purpose.
I don't know how it's possible to discuss what rank a pokemon should be before actually finishing and implementing the CAP, it seems a kind of pointless activity. As you said we didn't intend Volkraken to end up in the C category, I don't think a discussion/poll on what ranking it should be would have changed the outcome in this instance. Maybe I'm wrong though.

As for my experiences with Volkraken, I started off using a scarf, it made a decent scouter, u-turn made it very easy to bring Latias in to absorb the attack. However, it grabbed momentum too fast to bring Lucario in.
Then I switched to assault vest which was pretty good, especially against other Volkraken since I was able to take a water move with ease and retaliate with Power Gem, plus not being choice locked was quite advantageous. Grabbing slower momentum through U-turn helped Lucario enter too.
Finally I tried out choice specs, the scarf and a.vest were good but lacked power. With specs I found that Volkraken worked best in a vacuum, only really leaning on other team members when it needed to either switch moves or have something take a hit.

I've also switched between analytic and infiltrator, I haven't decided which I prefer most, but the latter is almost necessary for BP teams unless you've got someone who can phase or taunt.

I would like to give a support Volkraken a go, maybe with WoW, reflect, u-turn and something else, and see how this set works out.
 
Ok after a few more tests with Volkraken I think I can safely determine that it would not do great in Ou. It is outclassed by the likes of Volcarona and even Chandelure, the exception being with the latter it's a lot faster. Anyway as I was saying as an Ou 'mon Volkraken isn't great but when in UU it works amazingly. Kudos to cactusrepairman who noticed this but UU is full of bulky Pokemon and with the banning of Weavile,Crawdaunt etc... UU basically turns into a stallfest. A few of these stall mon's are: Chesnaught, Mega Aggron, Forretress and Donphan. With the likes of Volkraken which outspeeds all of them and Ohkoes with either of it's STABS Volkraken would deservedly have a place in UU. Overall I am able to say that Volkraken in such a powerful tier like Ou will do horribly but being in UU it will be recognised as a game changer and will also be recognised as one of the few things that could put a spin on the entire tier. Comment if you like! All feedback is welcome! Thanks for reading.
 
Ok after a few more tests with Volkraken I think I can safely determine that it would not do great in Ou. It is outclassed by the likes of Volcarona and even Chandelure, the exception being with the latter it's a lot faster. Anyway as I was saying as an Ou 'mon Volkraken isn't great but when in UU it works amazingly. Kudos to cactusrepairman who noticed this but UU is full of bulky Pokemon and with the banning of Weavile,Crawdaunt etc... UU basically turns into a stallfest. A few of these stall mon's are: Chesnaught, Mega Aggron, Forretress and Donphan. With the likes of Volkraken which outspeeds all of them and Ohkoes with either of it's STABS Volkraken would deservedly have a place in UU. Overall I am able to say that Volkraken in such a powerful tier like Ou will do horribly but being in UU it will be recognised as a game changer and will also be recognised as one of the few things that could put a spin on the entire tier. Comment if you like! All feedback is welcome! Thanks for reading.
Except that still goes against the concept, which was for it to support 2 low OU mons. If it is used in UU it cannot be used with those pokemon because they would be a tier above it, therefore making the concept irrelevant.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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I think people talking about Volkraken being weak need to really step back and take a better look here. Weak is frankly the last word that should even be coming up here. Its power is absolutely amazing. And that is on top of solid bulk and speed. To say that it doesn't fit in the core is one thing, and to say even that OU is not the friendlies environment for it is fair as well. However, weak it is not and never will be. There is a good reason people were afraid of its power during the movepool and stats stages. This thing hits like a truck, the kind of which we just don't see on the special side of the attacking spectrum. That alone could potentially give it a niche. But that is not necessarily the thing it is best at.

Personally, I have tried out a few sets, and my favorite is actually a Sub Wisp set. Wearing down and crippling opponents rather than blasting through them still works very well, and you still have immense power to back up that support, something few Pokemon can boast. Purely offensively, I have found it more underwhelming, but when it has other options, it can put opponents into bad situations. Does it work it the core? Maybe not. Personally I've been doing better using it with Latios and Terrakion than with the intended partners, as well as with some other cores. But is that Volkraken's fault? I don't think so. When I tried the core, Volkraken definitely pulled its own weight. It wasn't the greatest thing ever, but it worked. Latias was the same. Lucario is the real weak link here. And while Latias isn't bad, Latios is just better in most situations, so it is hard to justify using her over her brother. However, I don't think this means that we failed to provide a good partner for our chosen Pokemon. I just think it means that our chosen Pokemon are outclassed. Even with a supportive partner tailored to them, the traits that also support other Pokemon are enough to make it overall more advantageous to use it with others. Either way though, it is a wonderful learning experience to see how a Pokemon that meshes great with two Pokemon can still be better with others due to the advantaged provided back by the partners.
 
I tried using the core on the playtest, and I'm afraid to say that Thundrus completely dismantles all of the things. I should probably run a counter to him, but I didn't feel like changing my team at the time, and never got back to the playtest.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
I think Latias can be used in many situations over Latios, although I agree Lucario is quite bad in general. Latias is bulkier and makes a better defog user, while the extra 10 points in Physical Defense aren't wasted on 10 points in Physical Attack. Personally I have used Latias in the majority of teams I build due to its good special walling capabilities, great survivability, access to Defog and great typing overall. In the core, I would find Latias to be inferior to Latios due to the fact that we chose Latias as an offensive defogger, which is Latios' job, whereas Latias is a defensive defogger.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
I think people talking about Volkraken being weak need to really step back and take a better look here. Weak is frankly the last word that should even be coming up here. Its power is absolutely amazing. And that is on top of solid bulk and speed. To say that it doesn't fit in the core is one thing, and to say even that OU is not the friendlies environment for it is fair as well. However, weak it is not and never will be. There is a good reason people were afraid of its power during the movepool and stats stages. This thing hits like a truck, the kind of which we just don't see on the special side of the attacking spectrum. That alone could potentially give it a niche. But that is not necessarily the thing it is best at.
You're overestimating Volkraken's power. It's essentially a Volcarona with better defensive type, dual STAB and physical bulk, but worse movepool and speed and Volcarona isn't exactly the most threatening pokemon in OU right now.
Volkraken would scare me if it had a good set-up move, a consistent ability, better coverage and reliable recovery. With just one or two of those things it would feel balanced.
Instead all we got is a pokemon that's very easy to wear down with hazards and passive damage with redundant STABs, next to no coverage, a secondary ability that ended up being more useful than Analytic and almost no versatility - it either runs an offensive set with Scald/Fire Blast/Power Gem/U-Turn or a defensive one with Scald/Fire Blast/Sub/WoW.
It takes more than raw power to succeed in OU, otherwise pokemon like Victini and Darmanitan wouldn't be UU would they? So yes, it is "weak" by OU standards, all things considered.
 
When we created Volkraken, the core was at our forethought - everything was tailored around making this core both balanced and usable. This is why people were overly cautious about giving it further coverage and set-up moves, out of fear that it would not even require a core to function within. So any perceptions of Volkraken being weak and disappointing is a result of us adhering to the concept and not looking at Volkraken as a sole pokemon.
Now, we have heard reports of minor success in regards to the core, albeit not quite the level of success we were hoping for. Yes, on the whole there is disappointment in how well the core functions, typically observing a weak link in Lucario, and therefore Volkraken ends up suffering as a consequence. Based on this I don't think more coverage or set up potential would've helped the concept we were working towards, that would've probably just rendered other members of the core redundant.
By definition, we failed the concept. However, I would much rather we fail in the way we did, than fail by making Volkraken so good that it doesn't even need any form of support. At least this way we can say 'yeah, we might not have succeeded, but at least we didn't lose sight of our goal.'

Personally, I'm not disappointed in it, people are running teams that are designed to counter Volkraken and core. I know I did, having my Latias carry Thunderbolt, Kyurem-B with both earth power, fusion bolt and ice beam which could shred the core to pieces.

On a final positive note, I came up against an opponent that used a Sub set. His Volkraken was forcing so many switches, so he could afford to get a sub up against me every time, before proceeding to get, at the very least, a strong neutral hit on what I sent in.
There are effective ways to use Volkraken, just because it's not netting OHKOs left, right and center doesn't mean it's weak.
 
Except that still goes against the concept, which was for it to support 2 low OU mons. If it is used in UU it cannot be used with those pokemon because they would be a tier above it, therefore making the concept irrelevant.
Sorry for the late reply-anyways what I was saying was that instead of making a viable ou mon they have made something that works better in lower tiers however looking at later posts I see that I was most likely wrong in my argument
 
I found myself not using the CAP that much, or even its core. Most of the time, I just stalled out the opponent with Swagsire.

The few times I forced myself to use the core, Latias pulled itself while Lucario and Volkraken just stayed there.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
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There seems to be confusion. The playtest will officially end tomorrow night at 11:59 PM (midnight). I'll grab the ladder statistics at that time and post them in this thread. The Playtest Champion will also be awarded at that time.

As a final note, there have been rumors and logs circulating of users encouraging other ladder participants not to play on the CAP Volkraken Playtest ladder. Please note that while this is not against the rules, it is extremely disrespectful to the project. I will personally discipline users who practice this method from here on out, which can range from being disqualified from the playtest to a large infraction. Let people play on the ladder, cripes.
 

Ununhexium

I closed my eyes and I slipped away...
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As a final note, there have been rumors and logs circulating of users encouraging other ladder participants not to play on the CAP Volkraken Playtest ladder. Please note that while this is not against the rules, it is extremely disrespectful to the project. I will personally discipline users who practice this method from here on out, which can range from being disqualified from the playtest to a large infraction. Let people play on the ladder, cripes.
That is really disappointing. We all put a lot of work into our squid, and it really rude to the people who came up with it. The topic leadership did an excellent job, and so did the community.

Anyways, I am finding mega venusaur extremely good in this meta. While it can't switch into volkraken fire blast, it has good synergy and it walls lucario to oblivion.
 
I have to say it was fun to play around with the cap ladder and I am very much looking forward to cap 19! And congratulations too the winner of the ladder playtest!
 
I think that what we all learned about volkraken in the playtest is that while it seemed godly on paper, we gave this guy the stats of a stand alone wallbreaker but the movepool of a good support mon/core member. A revamp is very much a good think for volkraken because as many have said it is very underwhelming. Now not saying any direct buffs to volkraken itself but potentially upgrading the core itself or changing volkraken's role in said core. It was a fun CAP to use but definitely needs a boost. Grats to the playtest winner and argue my statement if you feel it's wrong.
 

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