CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[Stratos]

I've been told that nobody is posting in this thread because there's no clear direction set to talk about, so let me clarify.

There are two possible branches for this CAP to take at the moment.

1. The CAP is weak to Pokemon on which a strong pre-existing threat can set up. The opponent is given the choice "KO the CAP and give its team a free setup opportunity, or spare the CAP and avoid being set up on."
2. The CAP is weak to Pokemon that counter a strong pre-existing threat, and is also either given Destiny Bond or paired with a trapper. The opponent is given the choice "KO the CAP and lose my counter to his other threat, or spare the CAP and keep this Pokemon to counter his biggest threat."

Which one is a better route to take? When you respond, please consider all the implications of the options as discussed on the previous page, not just the options in a vacuum because it's not that easy.

as a side note, since there was apparently confusion about this—Aegislash is banned from CAP19's Playtest.

ALSO TO CLARIFY we are focusing on the first half of Yilx's concept for this CAP, the part about discouraging a KO. Please mentally erase the second half. The problem with that part is it provides justification for literally anything. Even sac fodder that's sent out on one turn all game, to die, has an effect on the match after death, because it brings a swing in momentum. For all intents and purposes, the entire concept is now "A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it."

 

[Psyco_Josho]

Hmmm. Well, option 1 could give us a lot of versatility in how we accomplish that path, but I have a feeling we could make something too powerfully versatile. Still a fun and interesting choice.

Option 2 sounds like it would pigeonhole us to certain options in the future - particularly Destiny Bond or some other self-KOing move (if we decide to get a little creative). Also a fun and interesting choice.

I personally would like to see option 1 be fleshed out. Better to make a CAP that succeeds too well rather than not succeeding at all, I think.

 

[Yilx]

For all purposes I'd say Option 1 is the better one to take out of this. encouraging a trapper usage was part of my original inspiration but if we can take an alternative route to having to run dug/goth/wobb on the team in order to utilize it properly i'd rather not. it also enforces the part of the concept that we've chosen to focus on stronger.

 

[Brambane]

OKAY BOYS I'M GOING TO TRY AND WORK THROUGH THIS WHAT IS THE WORST THAT CAN HAPPEN??

So looking at Option 2, CAP19 needs to be a Pokemon that immediately forces the opponent to bring in the specific Pokemon that counter our sweeper. From there, we can either try to kill the Pokemon with CAP19 itself or use a trapping partner (Goth,etc) to take it out. The problem with making the CAP able to kill the Pokemon that we want to force the opponent to switch in is that wouldn't that discourage the opponent from bringing it in at all? If we design a CAP that is supposed to force the opponent to switch in Venusaur so we can then kill it directly with Destiny Bond, then why the hell would I bring in Venusaur at all? Option 2 is more or less a lure, and lures only really work with the element of surprise imo, which is lost if we design a Pokemon who is supposed to act as a lure. Or CAP19 is too powerful because it can kill not only its counters, but the counters for an extremely powerful threat, making it even MORE powerful. Partnering it with a trapper is a little safer because it doesn't make CAP19 as immediately powerful and may actually encourage the counter to come in, but again it is extremely predictable.

So I don't like Option 2 I think

Therefore Option 1?

I AM NOT SURE HALP PLS

 

[GoldNinja]

Option 1 is the best here. It would create a Pokemon specifically to capitalize on and allow for a situation that normally happens by chance (I'm liking the weather setting option more by the minute). The opponent has to take this into account and be cautious about CAP 19's assist potential.

Option 2 sounds good in theory, but in reality it is too limited by its partners. The viable trappers are just not powerful enough or consistent enough to be worth the two team slots for them and CAP 19.

 

[Ununhexium]

Okay I've been looking around a bit and this is what I have come up with.

For option one, I think we've come to a general consensus that Dragon Dance sweepers are the best course of action. The main issue with them is that they are A) stopped by Clefable and/or Quagsire, and B) Prankster Thunder Wave from Thundurus exists. Like in the log with McMeghan, it was made pretty obvious that Mega Gyarados is the best because it has potential to break through Clefable / Quagsire at +1 (but only if Adamant sadly) but it still has issues with Thundurus (because Prankster Thunder Wave is mean). If we choose to go this route, entry hazard support (in my opinion) and a way to remove Thundurus are compulsory.

For option two, I was skeptical at first, but I have really come to see the light. In my opinion, this is a lot easier because it doesn't mean we basically always lose to Thundurus without Healing Wish / Heal Bell support. We basically have two options for this: Gothitelle and Pursuit trapping. Gothitelle allows us to easily remove Pokemon such as Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Chansey, Quagsire, and others. Having Skarmory removed basically just makes it easier for physical sweepers to clean up. Removing Mega Venusaur makes it easier for Pokemon such as Keldeo and Tail Glow Manaphy to sweep (but they are still stopped by Thundurus). Removing Chansey allows Pokemon like a Thundurus of our own to clean up (which in itself might be a good idea, especially if Thundurus runs Grass Knot [which isn't too common but for the sake of the CAP why not?]). It is also immune to paralysis from opposing Thundurus (because Electric-types are just amazing like that). Removing Quagsire would allow for setup sweepers to sweep more easily, but they still run into Clefable.

 

[Boss jr.]

I'm still loving the idea of pairing CAP 19 with one of the trappers as it explores this niche and a massively under utilized one at that. Not to mention, even if that's how we build CAP 19 that's not necessarily how it will best serve it's role. Just because that's how it's intended to be used that doesn't stop it from potentially supporting any number of sweepers in real play later on as it's role is explored. Besides, this gives us a very clear view of what we're trying to achieve as there can't be any debate over what pokemon we pair it with since the viable options are so limited. We could try to make it versatile enough to pair it with any of the viable options (team preview screws over wondering which set it'll run but still, it's an option.)

 

[FireArrow]

I think option 2 (relatively new) would gives us a much greater pool of knowledge to potentially learn from, while pretty much every fine detail about option 1 (been around since Genesis) has already been fleshed out by this 33 year concept assessment. Of course, the second option is much more difficult to complete successfully due to lack of a wide variety of options, but challenges seem to be viewed as more of a pro than a con in CAP culture.

 

[Avnomke]

Honestly, any threat that could be gained from having a trapper in reserve can just as easily be made with a fast Destiny Bond. Since no trapper is an effective set-up sweeper (well Gothitelle can run a CM set, and Dugtrio can run a Hone Claws set, but those are really weak to powerful physical attacks and priority respectively), you can't really threaten to sweep with the reserve trapper, you can only threaten the inescapable revenge kill with the trapper. Destiny Bond does the same thing, except the opponent doesn't get to send in a Dugtrio/Gothitelle/Wobbuffet counter afterwards, and you don't have to waste a team slot to use Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond puts you in the situation of "crap, is it worth losing <pokemon> to not allow CAP19 to <do whatever>?", just like having the trapper on the bench. The only difference is that the trapper can come in after anything goes down, but that's not relevant to the concept.

 

[Base Speed]

So a lot of what I'm about to say is a repeat of what other people have already said (I did consider not posting at all, but decided I should add my support to the options I like). I shall endevour to say something new and meaningful too, but I make no promises...

Option 1 or Option 2?

I've been told that nobody is posting in this thread because there's no clear direction set to talk about, so let me clarify.

There are two possible branches for this CAP to take at the moment.

1. The CAP is weak to Pokemon on which a strong pre-existing threat can set up. The opponent is given the choice "KO the CAP and give its team a free setup opportunity, or spare the CAP and avoid being set up on."
2. The CAP is weak to Pokemon that counter a strong pre-existing threat, and is also either given Destiny Bond or paired with a trapper. The opponent is given the choice "KO the CAP and lose my counter to his other threat, or spare the CAP and keep this Pokemon to counter his biggest threat."

Either approach requires two teamslots taken up and the sacrifice of a team member to pull off: it's a huge cost in terms of teambuilding as well as the raw sacrifice, so it'd better be really bloody consistent to use, or have a damn good plan B if it doesn't work. And this is the big problem with option 2:

In terms of Pokemon with trapping abilities, we have 5 options (with everything else being either banned or NFE): Gothitelle, Wobuffet, Magnezone, Probopass, and Dugtrio. Our two Magnet Pullers are far too niche to justify the risk/reward issue I've just talked about, so we can rule them out. Likewise, Dugtrio is too easily countered this generation and doesn't do enough in return. We've talked a lot about how we shouldn't try and make something non-viable viable again, so we would be ruling Dugtrio out based on that logic, surely?
Thus we'd be looking at a very linear partnership with Gothitelle or Wobbuffet if we go down this root. There's no real room for other options (unless we waste the whole CAP trying and failing to encourage partial trapping moves, which aren't really viable for a reason). What this'll leave us with is an unexciting build process and a highly predictable playtest.

Not to mention in terms of having a plan B, Option 1 is vastly superior.

Like I said, we're effectively taking up 2 teamslots to try and pull off this strategy, and that's a big burden to teambuilding. However, if one of those slots is taken up by an already viable set up sweeper, like those already suggested, the burden is largely relieved (yes Gothitelle is viable and can do stuff on her own too, but as much as MGyara or MMawile? I don't think so) and the consistency in my opinion is improved. Besides which, there are many different set-up sweepers we can choose from, who are diverse yet have unifying weaknesses that CAP19 can help them with, namely the Unaware Pokemon and Thundarus, as already discussed. This means that unlike option 2, option 1 gives us a lot of wiggle room (while still having a clear path to take, which is a really big plus) and will lend itself to an actually exciting and informative playtest, where we won't have to see Gothitelle on every. single. team.

TL;DR: Option 2 is too narrow in scope and doesn't justify the teambuilding costs it imposes. Option 1 is the way forward.

Once I feel we're agreed on option 1, I'll start talking about how we go about it. Doing so now just seems premature though.

 

[Burt Racecar]

If we go with option one, I agree that we have to either ensure that CAP can definitely remove the circumstance of having Thundurus in play, or failing that we'd need to make it so it's sweeper is immune to prankster thunder wave by pairing it up with one of the ground types on the previous page. As ununhexium suggested hazard support would be beneficial to help the sweeper net more KOs; so if CAP could set up hazard support that may also serve as a nice way of inviting Thundurus in with prankster taunt, and enabling CAP to KO Thundurus, leaving the path clear for our designated sweeper to do its job.
An offensive hazard setter could be a decent role for CAP19 if we go down this route.


For option two, Gothitelle is really the only choice for a trapper we have. Wobbuffet in my opinion, is just far too easily countered with using any none-attacking move; therefore Gothitelle has much more versatility in what it can trap. Although, we'd still have to be careful with what pokemon we draw in to trap, it's no use trying to trap pokemon that can run Volt Switch/U-turn as a move. In terms of what role CAP should take I feel that it would be best suited as a pivot ensuring the trapper can be safely brought in.


They're both interesting options but I'm going to throw support behind option one.

 

[Ununhexium]

For option two, Gothitelle is really the only choice for a trapper we have.

Pursuit trappers are also an option but I agree that for ability trapping we're limited to Gothitelle because Wobuffet can be played around, Dugtrio is really weak (even with a Choice Band), and Magnet Pull is just really niche.

 

[Stratos]

I wanted to ask that question to stir a discussion of the practical results of going with both but it seems like people are kind of just looking at a surface level so I'm going to post again. If it's not clear from my earlier posts, I'm not a fan of option 1. If we go that route, then the CAP will not be protected by backup threat until any of the opponent's counters to the sweeper in question are cleared out, which means the opponent can just baby those mons and exploit the CAP's exploitable weakness without fear. By contrast, if we go towards option 2, then the CAP can be used in the early or mid game, and since our sweeper no longer necessarily has to be a setup sweeper, it possibly can too, which means we don't have to play 6v4 while trying to eliminate some slippery Pokemon. Also, KOing an opponent's most important Pokemon is a much bigger threat than providing a setup opportunity in most cases, the exception being when that setup leads into a clean sweep but as I already pointed out, clean sweeps are nearly impossible to orchestrate in XY OU. And to address Base Speed's point, the goal isn't a direct strength comparison between gothitelle and mega mawile lol, the point is that goth can trapkill a crucial member in the opponent's defense and from there its just a game of dominos because every time you bring in your big guns something is going to die. Whereas if we go with option 1, the onus is on our good play to kill crucial members of the opponent's defense and only then does the CAP dissuade the opponent from fainting it, with option 2, the CAP dissuades the opponent from fainting it at the start.

and "having more options" isn't a valid argument at all. Whichever route we pick, we're going to have to narrow it down by the end of this thread so we know what we're building towards. So whether we go with 1 or 2, we have the same number of options.

 

[NumberCruncher]

By contrast, if we go towards option 2, then the CAP can be used in the early or mid game, and since our sweeper no longer necessarily has to be a setup sweeper, it possibly can too, which means we don't have to play 6v4 while trying to eliminate some slippery Pokemon. Also, KOing an opponent's most important Pokemon is a much bigger threat than providing a setup opportunity in most cases, the exception being when that setup leads into a clean sweep but as I already pointed out, clean sweeps are nearly impossible to orchestrate in XY OU.

But if we're using option 2 in context of this CAP, we're essentially making the trapper into a Destiny Bond that burns a team slot instead of a move slot, starting you off at an inherent 6v5. We also have to take into account that the "opponent's most important Pokemon" isn't always going to be something the trapper can remove, making our already shaky 6v5 into a 6v4, since neither CAP nor our trapper are going to do what we put them on the team to do. In fact, it's more likely option 2 will end in a 6v4 than option 1, since it's still possible that the set-up sweeper can get something done even without CAP's help, which is not something a trapper can do.

The only real exception to this is if you're running something like FlySpam or DragonSpam, where if the opponent doesn't have the Pokemon you intended to trap, you win even with the two deadweights lugging your team down. The problem is that these strategies generally can't afford to throw away 2 team slots, because if the opponent has 2 counters to your strategy, the lost team slots will usually cost you the match.

What I propose is an Option 3, namely have CAP itself be a trapper, avoiding the issue of counters with Options 1 and the wastefulness of Option 2.

 

[FireArrow]

What I propose is an Option 3, namely have CAP itself be a trapper, avoiding the issue of counters with Options 1 and the wastefulness of Option 2.

Because then we would no longer be following our concept.

 

[Mektar]

I just had a great idea. What if the reason a trainer would want to keep an enemy CAP alive was to scout out the other team? For example, let's say CAP has many possible builds, designed to support different types of sweepers or set different field conditions. A strategic player could then intentionally avoid KOing the CAP to see what it does to better discern the overall plan of the opponent, and then go for the kill afterwards. We shouldn't be building a Pokemon that pairs with one partner or group of partners, rather, we want a 'mon that is both unpredictable initially and revealing once its moveset is known. It is the information gained that will motivate you to keep it alive, not the threat of some charizard in back.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Because then we would no longer be following our concept.

If you built it right it would. For example, if you built a Pokemon that trapped Clefairy, Quagsire, and Thundurus, and had a bunch of sweepers behind. In that case, you would be hesitant to kill CAP until you got rid of at least one of the set-up sweepers. For example, say a CAP like this was backed up by Gyarados, Garchomp, and Greninja. In that case, you'd want to kill Garchomp before killing CAP so that your Mega-Manetric wouldn't be in danger after it knocks out CAP. If the backup was Gardevoir, Char-X, and Togekiss, you'd wait until Char-X was gone before killing CAP with a Steel type.

In other words, if CAP supports the idea of set-up sweeping instead of a specific sweeper, it would always fit concept. The most efficient way of doing this is creating a Pokemon that can trap and kill Pokemon that discourage sweeping.

 

[Avnomke]

And to address Base Speed's point, the goal isn't a direct strength comparison between gothitelle and mega mawile lol, the point is that goth can trapkill a crucial member in the opponent's defense and from there its just a game of dominos because every time you bring in your big guns something is going to die. Whereas if we go with option 1, the onus is on our good play to kill crucial members of the opponent's defense and only then does the CAP dissuade the opponent from fainting it, with option 2, the CAP dissuades the opponent from fainting it at the start.

Goth can kinda do that already, and teams that hate x pokemon that goth can take out already can have goth come in when x pokemon KOs something. Creating a CAP around this won't teach us anything besides "trappers can trap things", which is something we already know. And remember, the possibility of a fast Destiny Bond dissuades KO just as well, if not better, as a trapper in reserve. Honestly, Destiny Bond is more reliable than trappers, simply because of the possibility of a pokemon coming in that is effective against your trapper KOing CAP19 without a care in the world, while you can't stop Destiny Bond without Taunt or status (which takes a while to work, during which CAP19 can do its thing).

 

[JBPuffin]

It seems like NumberCruncher has a pretty good idea; why not make CAP 19 a trapper that you don't want to kill, but also you kind of have to? Better than Gothitelle and Dugtrio - like if Wobbuffet from back in 4th gen had some way of fighting back, or if Magnezone was equally effective against Steels and non-Steels (again, not current, but an example). Gengar, of all things, used to be like this in a way; kill it, and deal with the consequences, or put up with it and face other consequences. Give it some teeth in the metagame and, while I understand it's not preferred, make something new so CAP 19 can actually be the concept! If 6 generations of Pokemon haven't made this already, maybe we need to bring out an alchemy kit rather than a toolkit and make something (like Syclant or Kitsunoh had stuff made for them).

 

[Bughouse]

I'm not entirely comfortable going the trapper route because I feel it's even more matchup reliant than the set-up route. So we pair our CAP to lure in Lati@s, then Pursuit trap it with TTar, then sweep with Keldeo? Wait, but teams that use Lati@s to deal with Keldeo are already well aware that KeldTar is common (or at least was in BW). Any good team will have a panic button to deal with this scenario even after Lati@s goes down.

It's not as if this path actually avoids any of the matchup issues we face going the other way with Quaggy/Clef/Thunderbro. It's just different matchup issues. If the opponent has a well built team, trapping rarely breaks it. This might not be the case for example with what Gothitelle does to Stall, which can be a complete massacre sometimes, but limiting our usefulness to Stall is silly, nor would a CAP need to be made to make Gothitelle good against stall. It already is a stall crusher.

 

[Boss jr.]

It seems like NumberCruncher has a pretty good idea; why not make CAP 19 a trapper that you don't want to kill, but also you kind of have to? Better than Gothitelle and Dugtrio - like if Wobbuffet from back in 4th gen had some way of fighting back, or if Magnezone was equally effective against Steels and non-Steels (again, not current, but an example). Gengar, of all things, used to be like this in a way; kill it, and deal with the consequences, or put up with it and face other consequences. Give it some teeth in the metagame and, while I understand it's not preferred, make something new so CAP 19 can actually be the concept! If 6 generations of Pokemon haven't made this already, maybe we need to bring out an alchemy kit rather than a toolkit and make something (like Syclant or Kitsunoh had stuff made for them).

See now there's an idea. Does CAP 19 need to discourage players from fainting CAP 19 or can we build it so that it discourages any fainting until it's removed from play at the cost of CAP 19 getting a free switch in and trapping something potentially important to the opponents game plan?

The original concept I assume is open to a little interpretation so if CAP 19 was in itself a trapper that really shines off of the free switch could we make it so that players were too afraid to give it that opportunity until they could shuffle your team around and force it out hopefully fainting it and robing it of the free switch in?

I realize that might be a little unorthodox but can we go in that direction? It's kind of an abstract way of fulfilling CAP 19's role, but can it still fulfill the concept if we did?

 

[capefeather]

Well, since the two options are both about being weak to stuff, is it weird to suggest both of them? Option 2 basically seems to be "let's make this weak against Gothitelle bait" and that seems straightforward enough to combine with Option 1. I suppose CAP 19 can't act on both options at the same time since it can only faint once, but maybe it could make the choice using its set or even during battle. Option 1 is probably more about giving CAP 19 the right bag of tricks, anyway.

 

[escarlata]

The inherent problem with CAP 19 right now is that the easiest Pokemon to get past Quag/Clef is MGyara, while the easiest way to sweep past Thundurus is Lum Berry, which Gyarados cannot hold. Zooming in on MGyara as a partner, which obviously cannot have Limber or hold a Lum Berry, the only option are Substitute and Safeguard.

Taking various factors into consideration, I managed to exclude Substitute as a viable solution against Thundurus. Taking that into account, I actually think Safeguard is a possible option that CAP19 can support MGyara with. Dual Screens/Safeguard/Recycle + Eject Button Klefki with DDMGyara has been something I've been using quite extensively back before Swagger has been banned and it works pretty good in the right conditions. If CAP19 is a good user of Safeguard, it becomes unsafe to knock it out because it gives DDMGyara a very clean sweep.

 

[Draco Blue]

I think Mektar makes a great point. At the end of the day, Pokemon is a thinking game, and knowledge is power. The idea of having a Pokemon whose moves/item would provide integral information as to what the rest of the opponent's team is doing would fulfill the concept. The best example I can think of in the current metagame is something like Tyranitar, where SO many moves and stat builds are available to it, that knowing whether it's holding a Mega Stone vs. an Assault Vest, or carrying Flamethrower vs. Stealth Rock will completely change not only how you play around it, but its teammates.
Following this, I think it would be ideal to make CAP19 very versatile; the more it can do, and the more variety there is in what it can do, the more incentive there is for the opponent to keep it alive for a bit longer, at the cost of not fainting it. Also, a high degree of versatility would increase its number of viable partners, thus decreasing predictability, which works in our favor to help fulfill the concept.

 

[Birkal]

I don't agree with that line of logic. The entire point of having a versatile Pokemon is that it can surprise its opponent with a viable set and (hopefully) sweep the entire team. No one "kept Salamence alive" in DPP OU just to figure out which moveset it was running. If you did, it would set up and sweep. Same goes, to a lesser degree, with Genesect in BW OU. RP, Ebelt, Choiced, it doesn't matter: you want Genesect dead. If a player wants to scout versatility, you put Protect or Substitute on your Pokemon. Just because you have a varied movepool doesn't mean your opponent won't want to out you as soon as they can.

Overall, I don't have much to contribute to this concept. My only recommendation is that we do not avoid Destiny Bond. I've seen all the arguments against it, primarily from it making our process uninteresting to Mega Banette. While these concerns are valid, it does not mean we can't pursue both Destiny Bond and a Lure-type CAP. This Pokemon is to teach us all about how to tempt your opponent into not killing you. Destiny Bond pretty much fits that to a tee, so why avoid it? If it will help us learn about our concept, that's awesome. This mentality that we need to be a special snowflake is overplayed -- let's utilize what the metagame has given us to serve as a discussion platform. Why shouldn't Destiny Bond serve us alongside a lure? Something to consider.