CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[capefeather]

Time to type about typing! For CAP 19's typing discussion, your Section Guide for typing is none other than the man of the 1214 Slaps himself, srk1214! This thread will be open once srk1214 is ready to make his opening statements. Be sure to pay attention to what he says because he is responsible for directing the discussion and will decide the slate of typing options based on intelligent community consensus in the end. Let's have a good one.

Concept!

Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
• How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
• Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
• Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
• Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"

Pwnemon, CAP 19's Topic Leader, made this post to conclude the concept assessment.

All right, it looks like we have consensus.

The CAP will be moderately difficult to KO, except for its exploitable weakness(es) to things that Mega Gyarados (and perhaps other Dragon Dance users as well) can set up on. It will use the presence of Mega Gyarados on the team to discourage KOing it via these weaknesses. It will have some team role that allows it to fit on Mega Gyarados teams naturally, but it will not explicitly be a setup support Pokemon—the goal is to use Mega Gyarados to protect itself, not sacrifice itself for a Mega Gyarados sweep.

I'd like to thank everyone for their persistence in this concept assessment even though it really dragged on. It's now time for me to pass the baton to the Typing Leader, srk1214. Expect the next thread shortly.

Remember that this discussion is about the value of typings, and typings only, from the standpoint of using CAP 19 competitively in the OU metagame, to fulfill the concept as described by Yilx and assessed in Pwnemon's post above.

 

[Bughouse]

Alright everyone, thanks for bearing with us. Before I say anything important I thought I'd lighten the mood with an homage to DarkSlay who we hope is alright as well as our new TL Pwne- er Ponymon

The following expresses no opinions about typing and is just for funsies

I knew you were
You were gonna come to me
And here you are
But you better choose carefully
‘Cause I, I’m capable of anything
Of anything and everything

Make it a Fire/Flying
Make it a Water/Fairy
But don’t make it an Electric, screw Electric and Ice/Psychic

So you wanna play with Dragons
Boy, you should know what you're Fighting for
CAPpers do you dare to do this?
Pwne's coming at you like a DARK HORSE
Are you ready for, ready for
A Poison/Norm(al), Poison/Norm(al)
Cause once you’re his, once you’re his
There’s no going back

Mark my words
This love will make you levitate (bs that's an ability no polljumping)
Like a Bug
Like a Bug without a cage
But down to earth
If you choose to walk away, don’t walk away

It’s in that Rock on the Ground now baby
It’s a Grass or Ghost, Steel maybe
So just be sure before you give it all to me
All to me, give it all to me

So you wanna play with Dragons
Boys, you should know what you're Fighting for
CAPpers do you dare to do this?
Pwne's coming at you like a DARK HORSE
Are you ready for, ready for
A Poison/Norm(al), Poison/Norm(al)
Cause once you’re his, once you’re his
There’s no going back

Alright, now with that out of the way, I think the opening questions to this thread are pretty simple and obvious given how CA wrapped up.

What Pokemon does Mega Gyarados threaten?
What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?

Part 2 will be about what we should do about ^this and will come later.

finally if your name's in here it means I like you or something

DetroitLolcat is my brother from another mother. Seriously stop liking all the same things I like and also stop liking the Lions. They're bad.

Pwnemon terrible trio indeed. you won most improved user in the Smog and then were so nice as to tell me you thought I should have won it instead... wait never mind. That means you thought I was bad. >:( but you convinced me to start doing dubs, which is the best XY tier, so :)

nyttyn other part of the terrible trio who doesn't matter at all. idk why Birkal grouped us together. Maybe it's cuz Birkal's head is literally a brick.

ginganinja you're salty but we like you. you should quit OU mods and just chill out sometimes. Underneath all that bs you have to deal with, you're probably a nice guy.

Deck Knight You're like the crazy uncle I never wish I had. You also win a crapload of polls despite not actually playing Pokemon. It's impressive.

DarkSlay please don't actually be dead :( I was looking forward to maybe meeting you in person in a few weeks #westphiladelphia

jas61292 every time I consider changing my name I think about our solidarity. Numbered users forever (until I get tired of being asked if I'm new or if I'm Indian).

capefeather so confused why you lurk in Dubs IRC channel. Do you even play?

drapion360dragonkiller sorry ill be back in a minute

elcheeso you give surprisingly good advice and make surprisingly good art for a decrepit old man

Imanalt doesn't deserve a tag, but he's getting one anyway because I want to get his hopes up

bugmaniacbob this whole post is shorter than most of yours. you should fix that.

macle if you don't submit a flamingo again for this CAP I just might ban you from #cap. Also Little Cup is cool and you should give me easy pairings in LC Open y/y?

DHR-107 numbered user mods make me happy (see: shoutout to jas61292)

Kadew gibe Armaldo pls

paintseagull very fair minded mod and for all the shit competitive players often give you, I think everyone in CAP honestly does like you

Mos-Quitoxe Magistrum Bummer Quanyails Blue Frog y'all are all amazing artists whose art I would happily vote for in most any poll. If only there weren't so many of you :( I hate to disappoint by making tough choices.

Yilx no not you too. stop drawing waifus :(

Ununhexium 12:34 Ununhexium Give me a shoutout y/y........ k

@a bunch of doubles people who probably don't care that I'm tagging them in a 2k in CAP. Mizuhime Arcticblast Audiosurfer finally Matt BLOOD TOTEM Laga Lasagne Haruno Pocket TheFourthChaser Electrolyte Lolk Level 51 Robert Alfons Shaian Nollan Darkmalice Steeljackal<3 Memoric Fireburn and I'm sure a few other people I forgot are all pretty good or at least nice. Oddly though, only a few of you are both kek.

atomicllamas Hot N Cold TRC Jac come n get it baes

Woodchuck you should win best Firebot poster imo. plz make even more puns.

@Army of Armaldos teammates Quite Quiet just let them know I posted here, too lazy to tag them all

@BARIL PORAAAAA

Finally, DougJustDoug thanks for making CAP a thing. I started out my smogon days playing on the CAP server and being a completely awful poster and user. I wasn't even good enough to figure out how to download the sprites, so I was playing with question mark icons, but I loved it all the same. I've come a long way since suggesting we pair our Perfect Mate with Dragon Dance Lapras and that the design be a llama.

 

[FMD]

What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?

Gyarados's resistances (both forms accounted for) are Steel, Fire, Water, Ground(R), Psychic(M) and Fighting(R). Fighting is also a weakness after it activates its Mega stone, so we shouldn't consider it. Fire has access to Will-o-Wisp, crippling Gyarados as well as Talonflame and Mega Charizard to threaten Mega Gyarados. I believe we should focus on making a CAP vulnerable to Steel, Water, Ground and Psychic, or at least as many of those as we can manage. I also think we should do our best to avoid attracting the kind of Pokemon Gyarados would be weak to, those being Grass, Fighting, Rock, Bug, Fairy and definitely Electric. From a view based solely on type interactions, these are the kinds of Pokemon we should look to lure or avoid.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

What Pokemon does Mega Gyarados threaten?
Mega Gyarados threatens Fire, Ground, Rock, and Dragon types (the last is due to the options of Ice Fang and Outrage). It also threatens Ghost, Psychic, and Ice types, as Ice and Ghost is not very effective to Water/Dark, and Psychic does nothing, so it can often make two hit KOs (without Dragon Dance)

What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?
The Pokemon Mega Gyarados can set up on are mostly those it threatens. Mega Gyarados can set up on Fire types (those that don't burn with Will-o-Wisp), Ground types like Excadrill, Water types (that aren't Keldeo, Gyarados, or Rotom), Dark types that don't have good fighting moves (Bisharp, Tyranitar, and possibly Mandibuzz), Rock types (like the ones that don't often appear in OU), and Steel types (like Skarmory). Ice types, Psychic types, and Ghost types can also sometimes be set up on.

Sorry about the last post not having the necessary format. It explained these answers to the questions as well, but I'll save the rest for when we start discussing specific types.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

What Pokemon does Mega Gyarados threaten?
Mega Gyarados tends to threaten certain pokemon who are threatened by Water type Pokemon in general. It can OHKO Heatran with Earthquake and in the event that Heatran is holding a Air Balloon we can 2HKO it without it 2HKOing us back, although the Burn chance can be pretty nasty. Mega Gyarados can also generally take on pokes like Excadrill and Tyranitar, but the latter not always unless we have boosts. Assuming we have already gotten our DDs up, we can also take on pokes who are 4x Weak to Ice Fang like Dragonite, Landorus,, and Garchomp.

What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?
Other than Pokemon who are basically universal setup bait, what Mega Gyarados can set up relies on its resistances. In both forms, it resists Fire, Water, and Steel. In its base form it resists Fighting and is Immune to Ground. In its Mega form it resists Ghost and Dark and also is immune to Psychic. I think we should not focus on Fire, Water, Fighting, and Ghost to much for the following reasons. Fire types can generally Burn Mega Gyarados so that can be pretty dangerous for us, Water types are in a similar poistion to Fire types since they can burn us and they can generally do large amounts of damage to Mega Gyarados, Ghost types generally always pack coverage to hit us Super Effectively and Fighting types hit us super effectively in Mega Form. So generally, that means we can set up on Steel, Dark, Ground, and Psychic types, although the latter 2 through prediction, unless the Poke is holding a choice item and for Ground, if we didn't Mega yet.

 

[jas61292]

I think one of the most important things to keep in mind when talking about Mega Gyarados is that, possibly more than any other Pokemon, its Mega Evolution gives it many more set up opportunities than most other Pokemon. Water/Dark with great bulk gives it a lot of Pokemon it can set up on, but far more importantly, non-Mega Gyarados has Intimidate and a completely different set of weaknesses and resistances. That is absolutely huge, and expands what it can set up on greatly. While Mega Gyarados could never set up on Keldeo for fear of Secret Sword, Regular Gyarados can do so fairly easily, as it resists both STABs and is neutral to its most common coverage moves. Fighting types in general are a very interesting situation for it. Intimidate does a number on many of them, and if they do stay in it sometimes becomes a guessing game where the best move they could use depends on if you Mevo or not. However, in most situations, thanks to Intimidate, you come out on top, even if they out-predict you.

With all that said, it is hard to really pick out many individual Pokemon that it "easily" sets up on, especially if it is mega evolved already. Very few common Pokemon have move-sets that it can boast full resistance too, meaning it has to rely a lot more on its great bulk than its typing. As regular Gyarados, it can definitely set up on physical attackers whose STABs it resists, such as Excadrill or Scizor. However, these number few, meaning a better generalization would be that, assuming it has Intimidate in tact, its best set up opportunities would be on physical attackers who's best option is a neutral hitting STAB (either before or after Mevo, at your option), such as Mamoswine, Garchomp or Tyranitar.

Even so, Gyarados will still be taking a big hit, even from some of these Pokemon. Its bulky, but a lot of these Pokemon are very strong, and it is still taking neutral, not resistant, damage. On the other hand, its special bulk is great, and there are more than a few speical attackers it could take a hit from and set up on, however, like with the physical attackers, it will likely be significant damage. Not anything to put it in immediate revenge range, but not something it just shrugs off as nothing. That is pretty much what you can expect from Mega Gyara in a lot of situations. It can set up on a lot, but it has a hard time setting up with impunity. As such, I think possibly the bigger question to ask here is not simply what Gyarados can set up on, but what it can set up on that other Dragon Dancers can set up on as well. As I said in the last thread, I think we will want to be looking at more than just one Pokemon here. However, that is a question for later.

As to what Mega Gyarados threatens, well... most things. Once it is set up, there is little out there that really wants to deal with it. Certain Pokemon certainly can, and while it is not super priority weak, it is not very priority resistant either. However, I think it is easier to look at what can deal with it once set up than what it can threaten itself. Ferrothorn doesn't mind it too much, Conkeldur can take a hit at +1 and destroy it, and some other guys like Vaporeon can probably deal with it. But making a list of what it threatens is hard because it can threaten so much. Now, if we lack a boost, the list becomes a lot shorter, but at the same time, since this concept requires Gyara to be threatening due to set up potential, I don't think that is nearly as important to look at.

 

[Empress]

What Pokémon does Mega Gyarados threaten?
Thanks to Mold Breaker, it threatens several Pokes that rely on their abilities, such as Rotom-W, Quagsire, Mega Venusaur, and (to a lesser extent) Dragonite and the Lati Twins. With its most common coverage, it threatens Fire, Rock, Steel, Ground, Poison, and (somewhat) Electric. It even possesses the ability to smash common threats like Mega Charizard X, Bisharp, Excadrill, Mega and normal Tyranitar, Heatran, Landorus-I and -T, and even physical walls like Gliscor and Hippowdon if it accumulates enough boosts, which is easy because of its bulk. All it needs to do is Mega Evolve to get ride of its Stone Edge weakness if facing Gliscor or Hippowdon.

What Pokémon can Mega Gyarados set up on?
Don't forget that you can set up as regular Gyarados just as well depending on the situation. If you're still regular, you can set up on Pokes that can't hit you well, such as Keldeo, Mega and regular Scizor, and Conkeldurr without ThunderPunch. If you're Mega, you can take anything Greninja has to throw at you, as well. Generally speaking, though, Gyarados can set up on most things whose STAB it resists.

Here is another question that could help us find a correct type:
What is Mega Gyarados afraid of?
Well, it absolutely hates being hit with a status problem. It also lacks a way to take on Fairies, and while it can tank Water-type moves it can't punish the waters back very well. And in both forms it is weak to Electric; despite having EQ it needs a boost to outspeed Electric-types, such as Thundurus, (oops forgot Thundurus is immune to EQ) and Scarfed ones give it even more trouble. In its Mega form, it has problems with Fighting and, to a lesser extent, Bug.

So… typing?
Perhaps we could consider Poison, Electric, Fire, or Grass as a way to absorb some statuses that might get thrown at Mega Gyarados. Perhaps Dragon or Ground to tank Electric-types that it can't hit with EQ before dying.
While that would be great for a core, the real issue is to make this CAP weak to what Mega Gyara can defeat. If it wants to lose to Excadrill, Keldeo and Heatran, among other things, while remaining moderately tough to KO, it should be weak to their STABs. With that in mind, it is up to us to determine which Pokes we want to be weak to. For the three that I mentioned, Steel and Ice are weak to at least part of all their STABs. Rock allows us to lose to Excadrill and Keldeo as well. Though deciding which Pokes should threaten us comes later, if we can at least get a general idea in this discussion, it would make the typing decisions much easier.

 

[nyttyn]

If at all possible, it would be nice if typing submitters could also consider pointing out traits that their typing has that would benefit other potential mons in XY OU, such as, just for random example, Mega Scizor. As last CAP taught us, trying to constrain ourselves to perfectly support just one or two mons can backfire, so it would be nice if our typing has valuable traits that would allow it to have a "plan B sweeper," as it were.

 

[NumberCruncher]

What Pokemon does Mega Gyarados threaten?
From a structural level, anything low base defense is in a tight spot when trying to deal with Gyarados, particularly slower Pokemon. Great example of OU Pokemon that fit the bill are Excadrill and Mamoswine.

As far as what types Mega Gyarados threatens, Waterfall and Earthquake hit like a truck, so most pokemon that have a weakness to either Water or Earth without having STAB effectiveness on Gyarados are going to want to run. That would be Fire, Ground, Rock, Poison and Steel. Pokemon like Giscor, Landorus-T, Heatran, Bisharp, and Charizard-X tend to crumble in the presence of Gyarados. Also the Mamoswine and Excadrill mentioned earlier

What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?
Gyrados's best set-up buddies are Heatran and Bisharp, as none of them can actually dent Gyarados. Gliscor also can't dent Gyarados, but setting up him is a risky maneuver thanks to Toxic. Excadrill, Mamoswine, Charizard-X, Rotom-W and Landorus-T also fit the bill provided the opponent doesn't have Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir, Breloom, Medicham-M, or Conkelldur. Thankfully, because Gyrados-M resists Sucker Punch, these are pretty much the only OU mons that can keep the above pokemon from being stone-cold set-up opportinuties.

What is Mega Gyarados afraid of?
Gyarados doesn't like priority, especially status priority. Thundurus is thus naturally his best counter. Clefable walls him all day and poisons him to boot. Mega Venusaur not only sets up statuses, but Gyarados's Ice Fang is also cut in output thanks to Thick Fat and Giga Drain helps recover most of the damage it does do. Other notable mentions are Talonflame, Breloom, Conkeldur, Medicham-M, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Quasire, Vaporeon or any Fairy-type. All of them can either wall them even through set-up and leave nasty statuses on it, or kill it before Gyarados can mount an offense against it even with a Dragon Dance already up.

My proposal, since we want it to completely wreck Thundurus and Clefable and Toxic walls while also getting completely wrecked by Ground types and Steel types, Rock/Poison not only takes down Gyarados's biggest threats, but its only weaknesses are Water, Ground, Psychic, and Steel. Ground, Psychic and Steel are all types you want to encourage to come in on Gyarados, and if we give it a Grass-type move, it'll take down Quagsire as well. It also has a resistance to U-Turn, which is a boon as well.

So my personal pick for typing is Rock/Poison.

 

[ginganinja]

I don't really care what typing we pick, so long as we hard wall breloom, which is a douche to deal with. It would also be nce to handle Ferrothorn as well, which is just annoying in general, but beating breloom should be the priority. Anyway, for the above reasons, I personally favour a grass typing just cos being immune to Spore, Leech Seed, Sleep Powder etc is really useful, but I guess it doesn't matter so much.

 

[Tadasuke]

Well, it seems like multiple people are picking variants on Poison for the typing. While that may seem like a good idea as a compliment to Gyara, the given typings completely contradict Pwnemon's idea of 19 being moderately hard to kill. Clicking EQ or Earth Power on something 4x weak to it isn't hard. The standard mega-evolving Gyara also loses its now valuable flying typing.

tl;dr: Don't make it 4x weak to anything

 

[aim]

I second Deck Knight's proposal of Electric/Poison. It covers basically everything that Mega Gyarados is afraid of, mainly Thundurus and Keldeo + Grass types who can take ice fang for days, as well as just with the typing alone is able to not only take their attacks but hit them back pretty hard as well. Definitely something I think we can work on.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Well, it seems like multiple people are picking variants on Poison for the typing. While that may seem like a good idea as a compliment to Gyara, the given typings completely contradict Pwnemon's idea of 19 being moderately hard to kill. Clicking EQ or Earth Power on something 4x weak to it isn't hard. The standard mega-evolving Gyara also loses its now valuable flying typing.

tl;dr: Don't make it 4x weak to anything

I don't think that's necessarily a problem. Tyrantar is decently hard to kill, and that has a 4x weakness to Fighting. Same with Heatran, which actually has a 4x weakness to the Earthquakes and Earth Powers brought up above.

 

[GoldNinja]

I second Deck Knight's proposal of Electric/Poison. It covers basically everything that Mega Gyarados is afraid of, mainly Thundurus and Keldeo + Grass types who can take ice fang for days, as well as just with the typing alone is able to not only take their attacks but hit them back pretty hard as well. Definitely something I think we can work on.

I also support this typing as it covers Gyarados quite well, and most importantly, is immune to Prankster T-Wave. That being said, it is important to consider this typing when paired with other potential sweepers, because we don't want to be too limited in effectiveness and face endless counterstrats once people discover an opposing team that can handle CAP 19+ M-Gyara.

 

[Tadasuke]

I second Deck Knight's proposal of Electric/Poison. It covers basically everything that Mega Gyarados is afraid of, mainly Thundurus and Keldeo + Grass types who can take ice fang for days, as well as just with the typing alone is able to not only take their attacks but hit them back pretty hard as well. Definitely something I think we can work on.

Another problem I'm having with this particular typing is that RP Lando and Mega Mawile have a field day with the two of these working together. Earth Power or Focus Blast gets rid of Gyarados, and Earth Power again gets rid of 19. Mawile can just Play Rough Gyara and Sucker Punch 19. Keep in mind that both of the pokes I brought up are extremely common in OU.

 

[aim]

Another problem I'm having with this particular typing is that RP Lando and Mega Mawile have a field day with the two of these working together. Earth Power or Focus Blast gets rid of Gyarados, and Earth Power again gets rid of 19. Mawile can just Play Rough Gyara and Sucker Punch 19. Keep in mind that both of the pokes I brought up are extremely common in both OU and the CAP Metagame (inb4 we don't make CAPs for the CAP metagame)

Lando doesn't earthpower or focus blast Mega Gyarados and if you have mega'd chances are you have used DD already allowing you to knock out and outspeed (flip those two lol) lando. Mega Mawile doesn't appreciate coming in on waterfall before it megas even after intimidate as before it mega's it has very poor stats and eq takes it out after. Sure 1 v 1 they can potentially beat Mega Gyra but that's only under certain circumstances

 

[Salt]

Deck Knight has the right idea; I believe a Pokemon that's partially Electric-type is the best choice solely because of the paralysis immunity and Electric-resistance. This is significant because, while Mega Gyarados really hates being paralyzed by Thundurus and being hit by Electric attacks, every other sweeper hates paralysis as well. I don't think that Mega Gyarados should be the only sweeper we consider. In fact, I don't think it is because of this part of Pwnemon's concept assessment:

The CAP will be moderately difficult to KO, except for its exploitable weakness(es) to things that Mega Gyarados (and perhaps other Dragon Dance users as well) can set up on.

This line tells me that there should be other sweepers considered alongside Mega Gyarados, and there are a few issues with Electric/Poison that fail to take other sweepers into consideration. (these other sweepers will probably be limited to Mega Charizard X and Dragonite as they are the only other standout Dragon Dance users.) Dnite and ZardX don't really have good synergy with Electric/Poison. Dragonite's synergy is decent because CAP 19 would appreciate his Ground immunity, and Dnite would appreciate the Fairy resistance, but Dragonite and Charizard X don't need a partner to bait Ground- or Psychic-types. Zard in particular hates bulky grounds. With this in mind, I think there is a better type combination that considers the entire trio of sweepers.

Electric/Grass
Weaknesses: Fire (2x), Ice (2x), Poison (2x), Bug (2x)
Resistances: Water (2x), Electric (4x), Grass (2x), Steel (2x)
Immunities: None (technically paralysis and spore moves)

Pros:
-Weak to fire, which the entire trio of Dragon Dance sweepers resists in exchange, and all three can set up on Fire-type moves.
-Bug weakness works well with Dragonite, Charizard, and pre-Mega Gyarados resisting it.
-4x Resists Electric and is immune to Thunder Wave, which makes it able to handle Thundurus without HP Ice. Even if it has HP ice, it shouldn't be too much of a problem because of HP's low power.
-Resists Grass and is immune to Spore, which makes Breloom cry. Also has the Leech Seed immunity.
-Grass STAB to kill Quagsire for Charizard X and Dragonite

Cons:
-Shares Ice weakness with Dragonite
-Resistances overall aren't too helpful in certain circumstances; Gyara and Dragonite don't need the Water resist, and Zard doesn't need any of the others for example.
-If Gyarados has already Mega'd, the Bug weakness is shared.

So, the cons that are clear to me with this typing seem to be somewhat situational and overall outweighed by the pros. Electric/Grass has something to offer for multiple sweepers, not just Mega Gyarados.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Another problem I'm having with this particular typing is that RP Lando and Mega Mawile have a field day with the two of these working together. Earth Power or Focus Blast gets rid of Gyarados, and Earth Power again gets rid of 19. Mawile can just Play Rough Gyara and Sucker Punch 19. Keep in mind that both of the pokes I brought up are extremely common in both OU and the CAP Metagame (inb4 we don't make CAPs for the CAP metagame)

Another problem is Ferrothorn, which can Leech Seed CAP and Power Whip Gyarados. Mega Medicham can Psycho Cut CAP and Thunder Punch Gyra. Mega Venusaur could also be a problem if CAP doesn't get the stats to dent it. Thankfully, Gyarados can kill Mawile with EG provided the CAP did any damage at all before it dies (which it should, since Mawile is slow as pudding), so that doesn't actually counter it. If we keep Ferro, Venusaur, Medicham, and Lando in mind in the other stages, we should be fine, though.

 

[Amitghosh]

What Pokemon does Mega Gyarados threaten?
Mega Gyarados threatens the Pokemon which are fast and with thin defenses to a good extent. The types it threaten are Dragon(Ice Fang) Fire, Ground, Rock and Steel. Mega Gyarados probably after 1 or 2 DDances is the most threatening to Pokemon without reliable methods of outspeeding, but with methods of KOing(example: Mega Mawile), and Pokemon with reliable methods to outspeed, but low methods to KO (Example: Scarf Latios)

What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?
First of all, Mega Gyarados does not have too many stuff to be afraid of setting up against. Its great bulk enables it to survive a few super effective hits too, so it can also set up on stuff that are super effective against it. Fairy types are the major threat to Gyarados, being able to OHKO mega Gyarados easily, so Gyara cant set up on fairys. Mega Gyarados can set up on almost everything which can not counter it very easily.

The CAP will be moderately difficult to KO

As the CAP should be moderately hard to KO, and it should be able to counter Gyarados's weaknesses, I suppose the cap should be Fighting/Steel. Fighting Steel can counter Gyarados's weaknesses well, it's not too hard to KO, nor too easy to KO, and Fighting/Steel can be countered by Gyara's EQ easily.

For those reasons, I think the CAP should be Fighting/Steel in type

 

[aim]

Another problem is Ferrothorn, which can Leech Seed CAP and Power Whip Gyarados. Mega Medicham can Psycho Cut CAP and Thunder Punch Gyra. Mega Venusaur could also be a problem if CAP doesn't get the stats to dent it. Thankfully, Gyarados can kill Mawile with EG provided the CAP did any damage at all before it dies (which it should, since Mawile is slow as pudding), so that doesn't actually counter it. If we keep Ferro, Venusaur, Medicham, and Lando in mind in the other stages, we should be fine, though.

Well typing doesn't equal movepool. Of course that is of a different topic but if we want this mon to resist what mega gyra is weak to and do well vs them and vice versa a simple fix is giving the electric/poison (yes i'm adamant about this one cause as a competitive tourney player, i see its viability) a strong fire type move.

 

[jas61292]

I don't have a ton more to say at the current moment, but from reading some of the other posts in this thread, I get the feeling that a lot of people are ignoring the real problems we need to solve here in favor of simply trying to be a good partner for Gyarados. That is not what we want. Hell, its not even close, in my opinion. This is not Perfect Mate, and our goal is not to simply partner with another Pokemon. So many of these posts are focused on a typing that takes the things that Gyarados doesn't like, when what we want is the exact opposite. Gyarados should be handling what CAP19 doesn't like, not vice versa. Its certainly OK for us to absorb some things Gyarados is not a fan of, but the more we try to be its perfect partner, the less beneficial it will be for Gyarados for CAP19 to drop, which is what this concept is all about.

Obviously, we are not on a suicide mission, and we don't want something that just dies, but our goal in typing should be to make sure that when it does die, the things that likely killed it are Gyarados bait. The overall partnership between these two Pokemon goes no deeper than that. We have an entire team, and trying to simply make Gyarados Partner #1 completely misses the point.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Gyarados usually beats both Mega Mawile and RP Landorus 1v1 as long as Gyarados hasn't yet Mega Evolved. Landorus cannot OHKO Gyarados with any attack, while regular Gyarados has a 75% chance to OHKO Landorus with Waterfall and a 100% chance to OHKO it with Ice Fang (95% considering Ice Fang's accuracy). Mawile can barely take an Earthquake from Mega Gyara, but actually has trouble beating it 1v1. Assuming Gyarados has not yet Mega Evolved and Mawile has (a likely situation given that Gyarados usually waits to Mega Evolve while Mawile usually Megas immediately), Gyarados has a legitimate chance to win 1v1 since Mawile has a 0% chance to 2HKO Gyarados with Play Rough + Sucker Punch as long as Gyarados Mega Evolves the second turn.

-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 51-60 (15.3 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 226-267 (68 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The maximum damage is 98.4%. Nothing Gyarados wants to take, but he can in a pinch. Mawile might not even use Sucker Punch the second turn out of fear of letting Gyarados Dragon Dance. Meanwhile, two Earthquakes or one +1 Earthquake from either regular or Mega Gyarados buries Mega Mawile. In fact, a well played Gyarados will come out of a 1v1 with Mega Mawile alive and with a Dragon Dance (although likely less than 10% HP).

The important thing here is that if we can get even a little chip damage on Mawile, then Gyarados can just crush it with an Earthquake (82.4 - 97% vs. 132 HP/0 Def Mega Mawile).

However, that's almost beside the point. The most important question is, of course, What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?

Greninja comes to mind, as it has to play Mega Evolution mind games with Ice Beam, and HP Grass just to hit Gyara neutrally. Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz is another good one. Ice Fang variants can set up on Garchomp. Tyranitar and Landorus-T can be set up as long as Gyara has Mega Evolved. Gyarados, however, cannot set up on anything that's already set up itself. For that reason, we cannot let CAP19 be setup bait for common sweepers. For that reason, I believe being weak to common moves used by setup sweepers is preferable as long as CAP19 can KO them if they try to set up. Types that are neutral or weak to Fire and resist Flying are also nice because of Talonflame. Bonus points if we can resist U-Turn.

I would also like to say a Bug weakness is not helpful. The most common Bug move, by a country mile, is U-Turn. Being U-Turn bait is not helpful because the opponent is probably going to switch to something that won't let us set up on them.

Poison/Electric is cool, but I'm wary of letting CAP19 become setup bait for Mega Tyranitar or Mega Charizard X. It's not an awful typing, but it's going to require some pretty good coverage to not be setup bait. A few types I was thinking about are Steel/Ground and Steel/Bug.

The latter hard walls Breloom, the former can with the right stats. Talonflame will want to lock itself into Flare Blitz if it wants to KO our CAP. Tyranitar will want to attack our CAP to kill it rather than Dragon Dance, so Gyarados can come in, Intimidate, and attack immediately. Mega Charizard X cannot set up against a Ground-type, so it will have to take a ton of damage from Flare Blitz so Gyara can set up or mop up after Intimidate. Steel/Ground, in my opinion, is the best typing for this concept. Steel/Bug is also acceptable if we want to unconditionally wall Breloom.

I get the feeling that a lot of people are ignoring the real problems we need to solve here in favor of simply trying to be a good partner for Gyarados. That is not what we want. Hell, its not even close, in my opinion. This is not Perfect Mate, and our goal is not to simply partner with another Pokemon. So many of these posts are focused on a typing that takes the things that Gyarados doesn't like, when what we want is the exact opposite. Gyarados should be handling what CAP19 doesn't like, not vice versa. Its certainly OK for us to absorb some things Gyarados is not a fan of, but the more we try to be its perfect partner, the less beneficial it will be for Gyarados for CAP19 to drop, which is what this concept is all about.

Quoting this for emphasis. We are not trying to make the ideal partner for Gyarados in every situation. We are trying to make a Pokemon that discourages the opponent from knocking it out because it will let Mega Gyarados set up. We want Gyarados to deal with the Pokemon CAP19 doesn't like, not the other way around. If we have CAP19 clean up after Gyarados, then we've lost sight of the concept. Our primary goal is to lure out Gyarados setup bait, not to destroy Gyara's counters.

 

[Birkal]

MODPOST

Hello. I've had to delete far too many posts in this thread already. This is not a fanboy project where we will build your favorite type Pokemon. This should go without saying, but it is painfully obvious that users are suggesting types solely because they like it. We have a concept; let's utilize it. srk1214 (our Typing Leader) made some great points in the second post of this thread. Please do your best to respond to those questions; this thread is a conversation, not a soapbox. There will be plenty of time to propose typing later. For the moment, we need to discuss what Mega Gyarados (and other DDers) threatens and sets up on.

jas61292 made a great point that we are not trying to make the perfect partner for Mega Gyarados. This assumption about being the ideal partner is coming from everyone jumping the gun to suggest a typing. Once we identify the answers to srk's questions, we should be able to reasonably pick a typing based on our answers. So please, be patient. Either post in discussion of srk1214's questions or wait patiently for when specific type suggestions are encouraged. Thanks for your understanding.

 

[viperfang4]

Keep in mind mega gyarados has mold breaker and can therefore threaten many pokemon that would be able to avoid it otherwise. Earthquake on gyarados is a threat for eelektross, room, gengar, and other levitate users. Waterfall is a threat to storm drain and water absorb users like gastrodon and cradily. Gyarados can also set up on unaware pokemon since that ability will be canceled out. There are many other applications for a threat with just mold breaker alone. Several threats that have been previously mentioned have forgotten mold breaker.

So, big weaknesses are of course to electric, specifically zapdos and thundurus. Electric type is a tough for both of those to deal with. Other major threats are fairy, bug, and fighting types so poison resists those. So poison and electric are logical choices.

 

[Mektar]

However, that's almost beside the point. The most important question is, of course, What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?

Greninja comes to mind, as it has to play Mega Evolution mind games with Ice Beam, and HP Grass just to hit Gyara neutrally. Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz is another good one. Ice Fang variants can set up on Garchomp. Tyranitar and Landorus-T can be set up as long as Gyara has Mega Evolved. Gyarados, however, cannot set up on anything that's already set up itself. For that reason, we cannot let CAP19 be setup bait for common sweepers. For that reason, I believe being weak to common moves used by setup sweepers is preferable as long as CAP19 can KO them if they try to set up. Types that are neutral or weak to Fire and resist Flying are also nice because of Talonflame. Bonus points if we can resist U-Turn.

This. A thousand times this. I wholeheartedly agree with the list of 'mons outlined here by DetroitLolcat as ones that MGyra can wreck and are common in OU. As well as these five-odd Pokemon, our main focus should be to build a CAP that is weak to some combination of Fire, Water, and Dark moves, as those are MGyra's key resistances. In other words, we want to lure out offensive Pokémon that rely mainly on these attacking types. I won't post typing suggestions yet, but in my opinion, if a proposed typing is not weak to at least two of them, it should not be considered.