CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[FireArrow]

Substitute and taunt don't matter in the situation we are creating. Think about it:
1. Chansey is baited in by CAP19.
2. CAP19 faints from seismic toss, Gyarados switches in.
3. Gyarados uses substitute, Chansey switched out.
4. Gyarados uses DD, switch in breaks the sub.

Wouldn't this be a better scenario? Same end result, but never had to sacrifice health to sub.
1. Chansey is baited in by CAP19.
2. CAP19 faints from seismic toss, Gyarados switches in.
3. Gyarados uses DD, Chansey switched out.

Of course there are situations where sub would be useful, however, a one-turn setup sweep isn't one of them.

 

[canno]

Hi, I'm a bit late to the discussion, so I'll start by answering the first pair of questions.

What Pokemon does Mega Gyarados threaten?

Gyarados threatens Heatran with its strong Water STAB if it still has a balloon up or EQ if there is no balloon. Risk of burn sucks, but Heatran is not going to want to stay in most of the time. Rotom-W also needs to watch out, or else it will get wrecked by a Mold Breaker EQ if its been weakened enough (EQ 2HKO's Physically Defensive and has a high chance to OHKO Specially Defensive after SR). We can threaten Lando-T as long as it doesn't switch into us and gives us an intimidate. In fact, we can threaten most Ground-types out. Excadrill has to play mind games to even try and KO use (does it EQ predicting the mega or Rock Slide predicting gyara to not mega). Even if Excadrill predicts right - it 2HKO's with EQ, and risks dying to a Waterfall. Ground-types in general pretty much have similar issues to Excadrill. Landorous-I is an exception, but Megaing up on Lando-I is foolish imo, as Gyara can get off a DD on it (I think the Sheer Force set's best attack against Gyara is Sludge Wave, which only has a chance to OHKO). So Gyara threatens Heatran, weakened Rotom-W, and most Ground-types pokemon.

What Pokemon can Mega Gyarados set up on?

This, I feel, is the most important question out of the two. What's interesting about Mega Gyarados is the pre-Mega having a completely different typing. This lets it set-up on things it couldn't if it was always Water / Dark, such as Keldeo, Choiced Locked Ground-type moves, and Fighting-types that don't run Rock coverage (These guys still need to play mind games though with the whole megavolving aspect). Keldeo is a weird one, since it can't set-up safely on a Scarf Keldeo. Well, it can, but it will just get revenged after Gyarados gets a kill unless Gyarados is at max health ( 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 258-306 (77.7 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ). Ground-types are in a similar boat, but Gyara needs to be a lot lower for them to kill unless they have a SE coverage move (Lando-T is the only one I can think of with Superpower, and that's in the same boat as Keldeo's Secret Sword where Gyara needs damage for it to OHKO). Having access to Taunt and Substitute also make the list of things that Gyara can set-up higher, although it does reduce its coverage. For example, Gyara can easily set-up on a Skarmory by going for Taunt and beat it 1v1 in most situations unless Skarm has like Counter or something. It can also set-up on Hippo with Taunt. The reason Taunt helps in these situations by the way is because otherwise they would just Whirlwind us out. It also helps Gyara not get statused. Another mon that we can set-up on is Lati@s after they go for Draco, although again Scarf is an issue, but only if they have Thunderbolt, as Draco only does around 50% while we can KO back with Ice Fang. Even without Ice Fang we can beat Lati@s after +1 since EQ can beat then thanks to Mold Breaker. However, it does put us in range of priority (2 Dracos does 76.5 - 91.2% I think). For this reason I think Latias is better set-up bait than Latios, since Latios is the one that usually scarfed. Greninja is also a nice target to set-up, since it can't really do much and has to play mind-games pre-mega. It's also great that it basically never runs scarf, so it doesn't have the same problem it has with Keldeo. While we can set-up on Scizor theoretically by not megavolving, we can't even Megavolve until it dies since it's bulky enough to tank our hits unless we get to +3 pre-mega and +4 after it megas.

~~~

Now to answer the other questions posted in the thread

Should we be focusing primarily on any particular Mega Gyarados set? If so, should we favor Sub and Taunt sets that can better handle Walls or the Ice Fang set that sweeps more readily? i.e. Does the number of Pokemon that (Mega) Gyarados can set up on by forgoing Ice Fang for a support move grow significantly enough to merit being stopped by a few Pokemon Ice Fang would otherwise handle?
This is an interesting question. I don't think we should focus on any particular M Gyarados set tbh, but if we do it should be the Ice Fang set. I say this because the Ice Fang set works better vs more offensive teams, which have a higher chance of actually killing our CAP as oppose to more defensive teams. For example, dying to Skarmory is rather difficult unless we switch into a Brave Bird and we're weak enough to die to it or we're like 4x weak to it or something. Assuming we don't just murder Skarmory (which wouldn't help Tauntdos sweep because we've forced it out), it's probably not going to both killing us, opting to setting up hazards and roosting. Meanwhile, against something like Keldeo or something it's a lot easier to get murdered by it because its more often than not spamming high powered STABs left and right. So the Ice Fang set is probably more ideal to focus on, although we should also try and help Taunt/Sub sets set-up too by simply not demolishing walls that Sub/Taunt can set-up on like Skarmory and Hippowdon. Btw, I think Taunt is more important than Sub tbh.

How much weight should we place on our interactions with U-turn users? Do we need to resist U-turn? Could we just beat most U-turn users so they can't threaten to kill with a U-turn, even though we don't resist the move? Is resisting U-turn compatible with other goals we may have of drawing out Pokemon that Mega Gyarados can set up on?

I think the most important thing against U-Turn mons is that we don't die to the move U-Turn. If they can beat us with other means then that's cool as long as we can set-up on them with Gyarados. We don't necessarily need to resist U-Turn, as the only strong STAB U-Turn I can think of is Scizor, which is a mediocre set-up for Gyarados since we can't even Mega unless it dies or we get +3/4. A resist to U-Turn would be swell though, as it lowers the chance of U-Turner being able to beat us with U-Turn.

 

[Ignus]

I want to point out some things that many people have been doing that I don't agree with when it comes to choosing typing, and some things that have been mentioned that will help us achieve our goal. The point of this post is not to suggest a specific typing, but to help people better focus their arguments for their suggestions. Hopefully asking ourselves whether or not we're doing these things in the future will help us choose better typings.

So here's some general dos and don'ts I feel are necessary for this part of the project.

Do:

• Have a selective 'group' of resistances.

It's easy to say something like 'we have a resistance to grass so we won't accidentally let Mega-Venu come in on us!', but that argument has a natural drawback that ALWAYS needs to be considered. I'm talking about coverage. In this case, Venu runs poison and fire moves along with grass quite consistently. So if one of our weaknesses happen to be from the group of grass, poison, and fire, that makes the original argument for the grass resistance invalid. Similarly, if we chose a ground typing for CAP, we handle Thundurus's STAB and t-wave extremely well. However, it almost always runs HP ice, making it much more difficult to justify a ground typing. For every typing we choose, we should be well aware of coverage moves.
It seems like the above should go without saying, but I see people saying things like 'my typing beats Thundurus' while they have a gaping weakness to fighting, which happens to be the type of focus blast. Thundurus runs that. Crazy, right?
Don't think of a weakness or resistance as justifiable just by itself. Being able to identify reasons for a typing working well is without factoring in common coverage moves is like trying to lock an open door. It doesn't matter if the door is locked if you forgot to close the fucking door in the first place.

• Correctly Understand Gyarados's (and other sweeper's) strengths.

A big part of the reason we chose MGyara as our sweeper of choice was the fact that after even a single boost, it wrecks EVERYTHING. Really, after it sets up, your only choices are to kill it with priority users or die. Because of this, CAP should be doing only two things: Killing and stunting priority users and getting out of Gyara's way and watching it kill everything. While we aren't trying to create a perfect mate for Gyara, handling these threats and setting up our after-death effects will be our only priorities while alive.
To put it simply, MGyara's strength is that priority is it's only weakness. It can set up on a large portion of the metagame, so as long as we can handle the small instances it CAN'T, we've done our job correctly.
Yes, I agree that we aren't trying to cover our sweeper's weaknesses. We aren't trying to create a perfect partner for our sweeper, nor should we. However, in order to have a lasting impact on the battle, even after fainting, removing our endgame's counters is a perfectly reasonable choice and is beneficial towards the concept. We aren't trying to create a core, and we shouldn't expect to be switching between MGyara and CAP hardly ever outside of the endgame. In fact, doing so too early would be a waste. It's commonly seen that if you send your endgame in too early, you lose and die. Part of playing with sweepers is knowing the right time to strike. There's quite a distinct difference between a 'Perfect Mate' and our sac-sweep combo. Perfect Mate assumes switching between the two. Our SacSweep assumes that we transition between the two pokemon a total of once. To clarify and wrap up this section before I go off on some tangent:
We WANT to hurt things that threaten MGyara after a boost, namely things that can revenge kill it.
We DON'T WANT to hurt things that threaten MGyara before a boost.
This is what differentiates SacSweep from a Perfect Mate.



Don't:

• Have Priority weaknesses.

Arguably, the easiest way to kill the majority of the dragon dancers is with priority users. Not only does MGyara have a fighting weakness as is, but Conkeldurr and Breloom check it, both who have powerful fighting type priority. If we bait these pokemon out to fight CAP, we have lost our setup chance. I agree that we're trying to identify what we CAN set up on and not what we CAN'T, but choosing a type with a fighting weakness is equivalent to saying that it's fine to ignore MGyara as one of our sweepers. Which it's not.

Similarly, a weakness to flying or dark (Dark is special. I talk about sucker punch and stuff later) could be potentially hazardous, due to both types having strong priority users behind them.
Not only that, but a large portion of priority users tend to run a choice item. Whether it's Talonflame, Scizor or Azumarill, forcing them into a non-priority move can potentially be the difference between our sweeper getting to set up and sacking CAP for nothing.

• Have Resistance to knock-off.

One of the most common traits most set-up sweepers have here in gen 6 is that the majority happen to be mega-evolutions. Not only do MegaZardX and MGyara have extremely powerful setup sets, but being a mega evolution allows them an innate resistance to Knock-Off. Spammers of the move, including Bisharp and Scizor, are handled extremely well by our Sweepers. We should be pulling these users out into the open as setup fodder.

I lied, the above isn't completely true. Thundurus learns knock off, who was already determined to be a threat to sweeping in the first place. I ran into this problem while I was writing what I did above. It's completely possible for thundy to start running knock-off to hurt us. The fact that megas handle knock-off well is worth mentioning, but we should be careful not to let a weakness to the move compromise our ability to handle Thundurus.
Similarly, Sucker Punch, the extremely powerful priority move, can be used to revenge kill our sweeper. Unfortunately, because the move shares it's typing with knock-off, it discourages us even farther when it comes to making ourselves 'weak' to knock off.

---​

Okay, I hope that this post was actually useful. This post was originally going to be a tangent about why having a fighting weakness is super terrible, but it sort of evolved into some sort of super-preachy-mega-post about everything that bothered me. If you think I'm super dumb and any of this is wrong, feel free to yell as usual. However, if you agree with any of the above points, you should be applying them to CAP's typing.

Writing on an airplane sucks. The guy next to me keeps trying to read my stuff.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

words

a) Nobody has a monopoly on typing suggestions. You don't get anything for proposing a typing.
b) The only thing that makes a difference is the quality of your arguments, or possibly the legibility of the same.
c) There were more constructive ways to get this point across, like possibly PMing the moderator in question, rather than throwing a tantrum.

Just so that this post isn't a complete waste:

I was initially rather baffled by this thread, particularly the part where srk said "we suggest typings in the second thread, coming soon" and everybody immediately started posting typings. For that reason, I thought it best to hold off on posting until he had a chance to sort this mess out. Unfortunately, even this grace period hasn't exactly given me any new, bright ideas that haven't already been suggested. What I'm going to try to do, consequently, is to lay out the entirety of the problem and see if this gives any new insights to anybody else listening. I won't lie - I'm sceptical that this project and this direction we're going in are feasible or practical, but hey we've done more with less before so ignore me

To achieve the concept, or rather the new super improved version, our fledgling CAP needs to do two things -

1. Be able to kill off the common things that would prevent a Mega Gyarados sweep
2. Be most readily offed by things that Mega Gyarados can to a greater or lesser extent set up on

Number 1 is necessary because if the opponent retains some way of stopping the sweep then the point of the exercise is lost - this is assuming, of course, that Mega Gyarados is acting as the win condition or that the opponent's win condition must be sacrificed to stop it. Number 2 is difficult for reasons already mentioned by jas - there isn't really any single OU Pokemon that Mega Gyarados can set up on with 99% confidence of not being interrupted. This is, in many ways, all to the good, because it means that the strategy is not restricted to a single archetype that must be on the opponent's team, but makes building CAP19, it must be said, something of a headache.

What stops a Mega Gyarados sweep? According to the OU analysis, bulky Grass- and Water-types can wall it and stuff that outruns it can kill it if weakened, which is pretty much guaranteed if it has to set up on some nightmare offensive Pokemon. Oh, and add to the above priority spam Pokemon such as Talonflame, plus Bisharp mindgames if low on health, and I would have said Aegislash a few days ago but apparently that's not a thing anymore so oh well. So then. In my view, the priority is to be able to take down Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Mega Venusaur, and probably Thundurus too. To my mind, revenge killers and other in-out sorts are harder to pin down and remove than walls, and there really isn't an easy way to avoid Thundurus and its Thunder Wave bar Shadow Tag, Safeguard, or Substitute, the latter of which is probably the easiest to actually consistently set up (though, again, we run into problems with the whole trying-to-set-up-on-offensive-monsters problem in trying to maintain a Substitute). By all means, shutting down Thundurus entirely is still a good goal, but there's no real way to remove it entirely as a threat beyond being able to switch into it.

How are we going to go about doing this? Honestly, I don't know - Mega Gyarados isn't a Pokemon that really lends itself either to ideal partners or to setting up on specific threats, as mentioned earlier. Consequently, for another alternative, we could simply aim to create a Pokemon that makes life extremely difficult for those Pokemon that are most likely to interrupt a successful sweep - things like Quagsire, Clefable, Thundurus and Talonflame. This is assuming, of course, that rather than picking a single one or group of sweepers to prioritise, we can create a failsafe against a core problem. I believe a number of typings have already been suggested that do this, to a greater or lesser extent; I was intending to suggest Grass/Poison as an option in the second, upcoming thread.

 

[Burt Racecar]

I think the Ice Fang Gyarados lends itself to the concept far better than a Taunt set would do.
After one DD boost Mega-Gyarados can successfully 2HKO Mega-Venusaur and OHKO Breloom (only if on full health due to the mach punch damage.) If Mega-Gyarados otherwise has not boosted, turns the 2HKO into a 3HKO and the OHKO into a 2HKO, by which time Venusaur and Breloom would have already taken care of M-Gya. With a guaranteed boost following CAP19's KO, Mega-Gyarados can turn these two pokemon that check it, into ones that are less than comfortable to stay in on it. Hopefully ensuring CAP19's survivability through fear of an easy Mega-Gyarados boost.
Furthermore, without Ice Fang it would struggle against Dragonite, pulling off a 3HKO with Waterfall (2HKO if rocks are up) at +1 attack, whereas Ice Fang is a clean kill. At +1, Ice Fang would also help threaten Zapdos, and to a lesser extent Thundurus (guaranteed to paralyze Mega-Gyarados at the possible cost of its own KO).

On the other hand the taunt set would prevent phazing from Skarmory and Mandibuzz, and greatly hinders Ferrothorn, although there is the risk that it would immediately use Power Whip instead of leech seed/thunder wave. The taunt set is checked hard by Mega-Venusaur and Breloom, whereas the Ice Fang set piles the pressure on against them, and may hopefully makes the opponent think carefully about how to KO CAP19.


In regards to U-turn, I'm not entirely convinced it's necessary for CAP19 to resist it, it just should not be weak to bug or OHKO'd by it, else we risk a Gyarados check/counter preventing us from bringing in Mega-Gyarados at the opportune moment. However, the VoltTurn death mechanics allow us see who the opponent brings in, perhaps providing CAP19s team with the greater momentum.

A few U-turn users are pokemon which one of Gyarados' forms could set up on; Lando-T, Greninja, Gliscor (if it's an unconventional one), Infernape (if no thunderpunch)
It may struggle to set up on some other popular U-turn users, Scizor, Talonflame, Diggersby, Victini, Staraptor.
Certain typings may keep some of these users at bay with STABs, but it'd be unlikely to tackle all of them.
So, resisting U-turn may be somewhat compatible with drawing out pokemon that Mega-Gyarados can set up on, although not universally.

Ultimately though, I don't think resisting bug will deter the possible users from either scouting with U-turn, or from coming in against CAP19, as common U-turn users apart from bugs are ground types, flying types, and a few fire types. To prevent the majority of U-turn users CAP19 would be better off resisting their STABs over the actual move, or providing the appropriate offensive coverage. However, I think a lot of this will have to be tinkered with in the coming stages; especially if we want to draw in certain U-turn users but not others.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Should we be focusing primarily on any particular Mega Gyarados set? If so, should we favor Sub and Taunt sets that can better handle Walls or the Ice Fang set that sweeps more readily? i.e. Does the number of Pokemon that (Mega) Gyarados can set up on by forgoing Ice Fang for a support move grow significantly enough to merit being stopped by a few Pokemon Ice Fang would otherwise handle?
It would be best to not focus primarily on any particular Mega Gyarados set. I'm not sure if I should be explaining my reasoning for this and if not then mods feel free to take this part out. The problem is that the three moves Ice Fang, Taunt, and Subsitute can each help a lot in different situations. Ice Fang can help us set up on pokemon who tend to be 4x Weak to it like Garchomp and Dragonite who would normally be quite threatening to Mega Gyarados and it also gives us some type of a weapon against some of the bulky grass types out there like Mega Venusaur. Taunt and Substiute both help us set up on some more defensive pokemon like Chansey, in both similar and different ways. Both Taunt and Substitute can help prevent against pokemon who are likely going to give us status effects. However, Taunt lets us make sure that Clerics won't be able to take advantage of our set up while Substitute can help us get up a DD or in some cases 2 when the opponent switches out. These are all quite distinctive differences and I really don't think we should try to choose between them. However if we had to I would go with Ice Fang and my reasoning for this is also my answer to your third question srk. Ice Fang is usually going to be more viable since if we get enough setup, we can take on most of the types of defensive Pokemon I was talking about that where harmed by the support moves, but if we choose a support move over Ice Fang, pokemon like Garchomp and Dragonite could do some pain to us, so this doesn't really merit as much as Ice Fang and is why I think we should go with Ice Fang sets if we had too.

How much weight should we place on our interactions with U-turn users? Do we need to resist U-turn? Could we just beat most U-turn users so they can't threaten to kill with a U-turn, even though we don't resist the move? Is resisting U-turn compatible with other goals we may have of drawing out Pokemon that Mega Gyarados can set up on?

We should probably put a good amount of weight on our interactions with U-Turn users because something that can just kill us and then let the opponent switch into something that can kill Mega Gyarados is not something we should allow. Personally I do think we should resist U-Turn for my reasoning above, infact because of this I'm kinda thinking that its mandatory that we atleast have a single resitance to U-Turn, a double resistance wouldn't be mandatory but it would be nice if we could have one, just done put a lot of pressure on a double resistance. We could beat most U-Turn users even if we don't havea resist to it , but really most U-Turn users are so fast to the point that if we don't resist U-Turn then we are going to have to be ridiculously fast (Not trying to polljump here). Resisting U-Turn is absolutely compatible with other goals we have to lure Pokemon out for Mega Gyarados can set up on. The Bug type thankfully has so many types that can resist it to the point where if we dig deep enough, we can both resist U-Turn and lure out certain pokes.

 

[Bughouse]

I'm going to sneak in here and add another question based on Qwilphish's excellent post. Here's the criteria Qwilphish suggested for CAP 19:

Typing this time around doesn't seem to be as difficult as it has the other rounds but here is my outline of things that the typing should do: [not going to suggest any types that may fit this bc no types in the type part you know]
- Resist Voltturn
- Is threatened by Choiced Water-type attacks (i.e. those by Azumarill or Keldeo)
- Is threatend by Choiced Ground-types attacks (i.e. those by Garchomp, Excadrill, or non Focus Blast Landorus)
- Optional: Is threatened by Choiced Fire-type attacks (i.e. those by Talonflame or Heatran)

Are there any of these you disagree with? Are there any more you would say are more important than what Qwilphish prioritized?

Here's one that I would like to add:
- Should not be beaten by the same glue mons as Mega Gyarados

What I mean by this is that many OU teams rely on a tankish kind of mon to serve as a check to many things at once. The classic example in my mind is Assault Vest Azumarill, which is very obnoxious, for example, to Mega Gyarados. If Assault Vest Azumarill can come in and KO CAP 19, it will then be impossible for Mega Gyarados to set up safely. These mons tend to be very central to the opponent's team and will be one of the first things they look to switch in against anything that threatens the team.

So if CAP 19 threatens them offensively they might go to one of the following (start of a list by Unbirthday, a pretty darn solid OU teambuilder, but feel free to add more to the list):

Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, U-turn Mega Scizor (note: most don't use U-turn), Rotom-W, Slowbro, Regenerator mons in general (Amoonguss, Alomomola, Tornadus-T), and Goodra.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Something that I believe should be mentioned is that while being weak to most Ground types can certainly be useful, we should be careful not to be complete Landorus-I bait. For starters, since there is no real reason for Lando to be choiced (because yay sheer force) we can't have the benefit of choice-locked ground-type attacks and Lando hits hard enough for his coverage moves to hurt. Also, Gyara needs to stay in regular form not to get absolutely murdered and even then it's a 50/50 deal where Lando can predict with Focus Blast which is obviously less than ideal. With good prediction or even a little luck our win condition could be dead without really accomplishing anything.
And while we're on the subject, I don't think we should be counting Heatran as setup bait either. Again, 50/50 where maybe he stays in and goes for the burn. Sub/Taunt or Safeguard support from CAP might remedy that tho

 

[Boss jr.]

Things we're keeping in mind so far as I can tell:

• U-Turn and Volt Turn Resistance
• Thunder Wave or Paralysis Immunity
• Fire, Ground, Water bait (specifically when choiced)
• High number of resistances and/or immunities to give lasting power

I'm curious about Will-o-Wisp, Scald and other moves that cause Burn. A potential Burn could screw MGyara over really bad. Not just Fire types carry burn moves. Will-o-Wisp gets pretty good distribution among Ghosts and none of the proposed MGyara sets offer a SE solution to taking them out. Not to mention it'll be really hard to set up on water types that spam Scald hoping for the burn status. Gengar, Specially Defensive Heatran, Rotom-W, (as already mentioned), Talonflame, Charizard-X and Mega Gradevoir could cause problems. Also, I'm not sure if these are an issue, but Keldeo and Greninja carry scald. Are they a concern that CAP 19 should be aware of?

Are these valid concerns?

 

[GoldNinja]

Things we're keeping in mind so far as I can tell:

• U-Turn and Volt Turn Resistance
• Thunder Wave or Paralysis Immunity
• Fire, Ground, Water bait (specifically when choiced)
• High number of resistances and/or immunities to give lasting power

I'm curious about Will-o-Wisp, Scald and other moves that cause Burn. A potential Burn could screw MGyara over really bad. Not just Fire types carry burn moves. Will-o-Wisp gets pretty good distribution among Ghosts and none of the proposed MGyara sets offer a SE solution to taking them out. Not to mention it'll be really hard to set up on water types that spam Scald hoping for the burn status. Gengar, Specially Defensive Heatran, Rotom-W, (as already mentioned), Talonflame, Charizard-X and Mega Gradevoir could cause problems. Also, I'm not sure if these are an issue, but Keldeo and Greninja carry scald. Are they a concern that CAP 19 should be aware of?

Are these valid concerns?

It really depends on whether we are supposed to be content after setting up one DD. If that is the case, then burn is a serious problem for M-Gyara. If we are trying to set up multiple DDs, which is much harder to do given the general strategy of CAP 19, which typically involves just one free turn, then it isn't as important.

These things considered, burn is DEFINITELY a concern for M-Gyara in this situation. In order to threaten things that normally tank its hits well, M-Gyara needs that +1 in attack, and the last thing we need is for burn to cancel that out.

Now I would like to ask this: which is more important to be immune to on CAP 19's end, an oncoming paralysis or burn?

 

[Boss jr.]

It really depends on whether we are supposed to be content after setting up one DD. If that is the case, then burn is a serious problem for M-Gyara. If we are trying to set up multiple DDs, which is much harder to do given the general strategy of CAP 19, which typically involves just one free turn, then it isn't as important.

These things considered, burn is DEFINITELY a concern for M-Gyara in this situation. In order to threaten things that normally tank its hits well, M-Gyara needs that +1 in attack, and the last thing we need is for burn to cancel that out.

Now I would like to ask this: which is more important to be immune to on CAP 19's end, an oncoming paralysis or burn?

Neither is a favorable outcome, Paralysis in addition to a drop to speed also comes with a chance of losing a turn. The trade of is that Burn inflicts a small amount of damage each turn and a drop to attack (which is actually a pretty big deal when you consider MGyara won't be carrying Leftovers). I actually think Para-immunity is probably the more important but I'm not entirely convinced on that either. However my reasoning is that with Paralyze immunity CAP 19 could shift more towards baiting fires which at least (unlike Electric) don't also have a type advantage over MGyara (not counting non-fire pokemon).

I would like to expand on your question by asking; Is an Electric immunity enough to discourage Paralysis or do we need a Complete Paralysis immunity? It's also worth noting that whichever one we chose we could easily deal with the other later on with the ability or move pool.

 

[Salt]

I've had reservations about my previous suggestion for Electric/Grass. I attempted to form a typing that took other sweepers into consideration, but I see that the U-turn weakness is a big deal, and the Ice weakness is a bigger deal than I had realized. That said, I really don't like how this discussion still feels like "Perfect Mate: Mega Gyarados edition", and that all questions and most of the proposed typings are taking just Mega Gyarados into consideration. Imo, if we want to fulfill the concept, it would be better if we had a number of partners to work with so the CAP works outside of specific scenarios involving Mega Gyarados. With this in mind, I want to look at the guidelines Qwilphish posted:

- Resist Voltturn
- Is threatened by Choiced Water-type attacks (i.e. those by Azumarill or Keldeo)
- Is threatend by Choiced Ground-types attacks (i.e. those by Garchomp, Excadrill, or non Focus Blast Landorus)
- Optional: Is threatened by Choiced Fire-type attacks (i.e. those by Talonflame or Heatran)

The best way to consider more sweepers is to simply prioritize the Fire weakness over the Ground weakness. The most discussed sweepers besides Mega Gyarados were Mega Charizard X and Dragonite, and since all three resist Fire, Zard X is weak to Ground, and Mega Gyarados can be hit by Ground attacks after mega evolving, a Ground-weak CAP isn't necessarily a good thing. I realize that Mega Gyarados is our #1, but it doesn't mean it's our only one and being weak to Fire instead of Ground doesn't hurt Gyarados' set up opportunities.

On another note, it's best to solve as many issues as possible in this stage because something could go wrong in future stages. While it's not possible to be immune to all status, as well as handling all of Thundurus, Talonflame, Breloom, Azumarill, etc. with typing alone, it's still best to try and consider a typing that handles a good amount of these and allows us to pick an ability or stat spread that adequately handles the rest.

 

[gali]

GoldNinja, I definitely think it's more important to be immune to paralysis than to burns, as MDos can always run Substitute, Taunt, or outright KO most burn spreaders. This doesn't work with paralysis, as the most common paralysis spreader, Thundurus, has Prankster. In addition, if we're talking about other DDers, Zard X is immune to burns.

On an unrelated note, I'm concerned that two of the goals that srk outlined for CAP19's typing conflict. On one hand, CAP19 is supposed to be weak to powerful Choiced Water-type attacks. On the other hand, it's supposed to be able to check several common glue mons. Specifically, srk's list includes Azumarill and Rotom-W, two Water-types that are often Choiced. My concern is that we won't be able to check these Pokemon, which are definitely threats to Gyarados. How do you guys think that we should deal with Azumarill/Rotom-W?

 

[FireArrow]

You said to avoid talking about baiting in a specific type of move, but apparently putting the word "choiced" in front of one makes it a brilliant idea? We need a list of OU Pokemon that Gyarados can set-up on, which is something I have yet to see. While I don't feel I have a vast enough knowledge of the metagame to do this, I may as well get the ball rolling since people seem to be lightly waltzing around doing this (mentioning a Pokemon already brought up then proceeded to list the types gyarados resist.)

I'm going to sneak in here and add another question based on Qwilphish's excellent post. Here's the criteria Qwilphish suggested for CAP 19:Are there any of these you disagree with? Are there any more you would say are more important than what Qwilphish prioritized?

Pokemon CAP19 should try to bait:
Bisharp
Chansey
Gliscor
Greninja
Heatran
Keldeo
Mamoswine
Scizor (just don't mega evolve)
Vaporeon
Mandibuzz
Crawduant

Please tell me if there's any I missed or shouldn't be here.

 

[capefeather]

The way I look at it, we should try not to be weak against Pokemon that Mega Gyarados (and I guess Dragonite) can't set up on. (Let that double negative sink in because it's important!) I don't think we want a situation where one Pokemon is a large threat to a third of Mega Gyarados's team right off the bat. This may be both more pressing and easier to deal with than trying to give Mega Gyarados ideal setup opportunities directly. With that in mind, these are my suggestions, which the community can digest and decide which are important and which aren't as important:

• Resist Venusaur's STABs: Mega Gyarados has trouble getting past Mega Venusaur, especially with it being weak against Giga Drain.
• Resist Flying: This is mainly so we don't get screwed by WoW Talonflame, but resisting Mega Pinsir's STAB is a small bonus.
• Resist Fairy: I guess this isn't as big of a priority, but any of Azumarill, Clefable, or Mega Mawile will likely be bad news if they KO CAP 19, force Gyarados to Mega Evolve using a different Pokemon (say Rotom), and return to try to revenge Gyarados. Though, this is more crucial for Dragonite, really.
  
• Don't be weak against Fire: This is mainly because of variants of Mega Charizard X carrying WoW and Fire Punch, but Clefable usually runs Fire-type coverage, too. I believe that the Fire versus Ground debate is where we might have to choose between helping Mega Charizard X and helping Dragonite and Mega Gyarados.
• Don't be weak against Electric or Fighting: Basically, let's not just keel over to Thundurus.
• Don't be weak against Rock: Technician Rock Tomb, I guess.
• Don't be weak against Water: My main rationale for this is that CAP 19 shouldn't die to Scald. We want a Choice Specs Keldeo to be locked into Hydro Pump or one of the Hidden Powers specifically.

The fact that only one type combination fulfills all of these is a coincidence.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

As far as setup bait for M Gyara, I don't think Mandibuzz or Heatran should be considered since they can just stay in as he sets up and Roar/Whirlwind away his boosts, not to mention (again) the danger of Heatran's WoW. Also, choiced Keldeo could be set up on but ebelt or LO Keldeo can predict Gyara Mevolving and hit him with Secret Sword, plus the threat of the rare but possible HP Electric

 

[Boss jr.]

GoldNinja, I definitely think it's more important to be immune to paralysis than to burns, as MDos can always run Substitute, Taunt, or outright KO most burn spreaders. This doesn't work with paralysis, as the most common paralysis spreader, Thundurus, has Prankster. In addition, if we're talking about other DDers, Zard X is immune to burns.

On an unrelated note, I'm concerned that two of the goals that srk outlined for CAP19's typing conflict. On one hand, CAP19 is supposed to be weak to powerful Choiced Water-type attacks. On the other hand, it's supposed to be able to check several common glue mons. Specifically, srk's list includes Azumarill and Rotom-W, two Water-types that are often Choiced. My concern is that we won't be able to check these Pokemon, which are definitely threats to Gyarados. How do you guys think that we should deal with Azumarill/Rotom-W?

That sounds more like a question for the move pool. The reason being that a Pokemon can't simultaneously be weak to water and strong against it at the same time. Forgot about Fire/Electric. Ironically this type combination comes with 8 resistances, including one to U-Turn, Immunity to Burn and Paralyze, Weakness to Water, Rock and (terrifying 4x) Ground (which everything and it's Grandmother has EQ somewhere on it's team). Which may not be so bad when you think about it cause it could let Garaydos switch in on Earthquakes while checking common threats and pass around Paralyze or Burn status to help Gara set up.

Anyway.... that's off topic... moving on....

Bisharp (Dark/Steel)
Chansey (Normal)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground) (Choice locked into EQ)
Greninja (Water/Dark)
Heatran (Fire/Steel)
Keldeo (Water/Fighting)
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice)
Scizor (just don't mega evolve) (Bug/Steel)
Vaporeon (Water)
Mandibuzz (Dark/Flying)
Crawduant (Water/Dark)

Additions in bold. Is there any reason why Garaydos/Mega Garaydos can't set up on Talonflame, T-tar, Lando (either form), Excadrill and/or Clefable?

 

[NumberCruncher]

Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground) (Choice locked into EQ)
Vaporeon (Water)

Additions in bold. Is there any reason why Garaydos/Mega Garaydos can't set up on Talonflame, T-tar, Lando (either form), Excadrill and/or Clefable?

Talonflame can 2HKO with Brave Bird, so he's out. T-Tar can carry Superpower, so he's out. Clefable won't take extra damage because of Unaware, and Waterfall is only barely a 3HKO, so wish invalidates it. It can set up Lando regular and Lando-T on if it isn't already Mega. Excadrill is a set up as long as it's not a Sand Rush Excadrill in a Sandstorm, which is an incredibly rare ocurence with the weather nerf.

Also as a quick commentary on the three listed here, Gliscor and Grachomp are only set-up opportunities as long as Gyarados has Ice Fang. On the plus side, though, not even a Life Orbed Garchomp can OHKO you without Outrage, so once you see the Dragon Claw, you're always safe to set-up if no Priority user is around, though that tends to be a condition on all of Gyrados-M's set-up opportunities. Vaporeon carries Acid Armor and Scald, so it's going to stall burn you to death if you don't carry Taunt, and it still isn't great to be in with if you do. It's the very definition of a Pokemon Gyrados-M can't set up on.

 

[Psychic Daryl]

MODPOST

Hello. I've had to delete far too many posts in this thread already. This is not a fanboy project where we will build your favorite type Pokemon. This should go without saying, but it is painfully obvious that users are suggesting types solely because they like it. We have a concept; let's utilize it. srk1214 (our Typing Leader) made some great points in the second post of this thread. Please do your best to respond to those questions; this thread is a conversation, not a soapbox. There will be plenty of time to propose typing later. For the moment, we need to discuss what Mega Gyarados (and other DDers) threatens and sets up on.

jas61292 made a great point that we are not trying to make the perfect partner for Mega Gyarados. This assumption about being the ideal partner is coming from everyone jumping the gun to suggest a typing. Once we identify the answers to srk's questions, we should be able to reasonably pick a typing based on our answers. So please, be patient. Either post in discussion of srk1214's questions or wait patiently for when specific type suggestions are encouraged. Thanks for your understanding.

Oh, okay this is the first CAP I participated in so I dunno anything. Okay so Gyarados, IMO can set up on Electrics likely to have Fighting moves. Here's how: Trainer A with Gyarados, Trainer B with Electric. A sends in Gyarados. B thinks he'll go Mega to avoid the Electric move. So B selects Focus Blast. But A doesn't go Mega, uses Dragon Dance then goes Mega on next turn.

 

[Boss jr.]

So the revised bait list looks something like this. Bearing in mind that some of these are highly dependent on the set either you or your opponent has. Is there anything that we're missing?

Bisharp (Dark/Steel)
Chansey (Normal)
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets)
Crawduant (Water/Dark)
Excadrill (Ground/Steel)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Greninja (Water/Dark)
Keldeo (Water/Fighting)
Landorus Base/Therian (Flying/Ground)
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice)
Scizor Base (Bug/Steel)
Vaporeon (Water)

 

[Boss jr.]

Bisharp (Dark/Steel)
Chansey (Normal)
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets)
Crawduant (Water/Dark)
Excadrill (Ground/Steel)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Greninja (Water/Dark)
Keldeo (Water/Fighting)
Landorus Base/Therian (Flying/Ground)
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice)
Scizor Base (Bug/Steel)

The way I look at it, we should try not to be weak against Pokemon that Mega Gyarados (and I guess Dragonite) can't set up on. (Let that double negative sink in because it's important!) I don't think we want a situation where one Pokemon is a large threat to a third of Mega Gyarados's team right off the bat. This may be both more pressing and easier to deal with than trying to give Mega Gyarados ideal setup opportunities directly. With that in mind, these are my suggestions, which the community can digest and decide which are important and which aren't as important:

• Resist Venusaur's STABs: Mega Gyarados has trouble getting past Mega Venusaur, especially with it being weak against Giga Drain.
• Resist Flying: This is mainly so we don't get screwed by WoW Talonflame, but resisting Mega Pinsir's STAB is a small bonus.
• Resist Fairy: I guess this isn't as big of a priority, but any of Azumarill, Clefable, or Mega Mawile will likely be bad news if they KO CAP 19, force Gyarados to Mega Evolve using a different Pokemon (say Rotom), and return to try to revenge Gyarados. Though, this is more crucial for Dragonite, really.
• Resist U-Turn: This is so that U-Turn users to Faint CAP 19 and use the switch to nullify CAP 19's entire purpose.
  
• Don't be weak against Fire: This is mainly because of variants of Mega Charizard X carrying WoW and Fire Punch, but Clefable usually runs Fire-type coverage, too. I believe that the Fire versus Ground debate is where we might have to choose between helping Mega Charizard X and helping Dragonite and Mega Gyarados.
• Don't be weak against Electric or Fighting: Basically, let's not just keel over to Thundurus. (This falls in with resisting Volt Turn and Thunder Wave)
  
• Don't be weak against Rock: Technician Rock Tomb, I guess. ? Is rock tomb that common ?
  
• Don't be weak against Water: My main rationale for this is that CAP 19 shouldn't die to Scald. We want a Choice Specs Keldeo to be locked into Hydro Pump or one of the Hidden Powers specifically.

The fact that only one type combination fulfills all of these is a coincidence.

Baiting Fire types isn't so bad because Gara can revenge kill or set up on an anticipated switch outs. I know anticipating WoW is a big deal but with any luck we shouldn't have much of an issue here. By then I can only hope that CAP 19 has been given enough utility and been frustratingly difficult enough to KO, that it's already F'ed over 2 or more mons on the other team. Ground is the same way but a little prediction will be needed here (DD on the EQ or Mega Evolve on something else). I will agree that we shouldn't be weak to Water types though. In hindsight being water bait isn't a magnificent idea because Gara can't really set up on any of them, what with the threat of Scald and all. only Crawdaunt and Greninja pose a small enough threat that this is a viable option.

Is being threatened by Choiced Water and Ground still a priority?

Since we keep going back and forth on whether or not we should bait Fire types; What Fire types can out speed Gara and what are the chances of OHKO'ing them? Also, how common is it for said Fire pokemon to carry Will-o-Wisp? Even with out WoW how much of a threat do they pose?

 

[GoldNinja]

Bisharp (Dark/Steel)
Chansey (Normal)
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets)
Crawduant (Water/Dark)
Excadrill (Ground/Steel)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Greninja (Water/Dark)
Keldeo (Water/Fighting)
Landorus Base/Therian (Flying/Ground)
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice)
Scizor Base (Bug/Steel)



Baiting Fire types isn't so bad because Gara can revenge kill or set up on an anticipated switch outs. I know anticipating WoW is a big deal but with any luck we shouldn't have much of an issue here. By then I can only hope that CAP 19 has been given enough utility and been frustratingly difficult enough to KO, that it's already F'ed over 2 or more mons on the other team. Ground is the same way but a little prediction will be needed here (DD on the EQ or Mega Evolve on something else). I will agree that we shouldn't be weak to Water types though. In hindsight being water bait isn't a magnificent idea because Gara can't really set up on any of them, what with the threat of Scald and all. only Crawdaunt and Greninja pose a small enough threat that this is a viable option.

Is being threatened by Choiced Water and Ground still a priority?

Since we keep going back and forth on whether or not we should bait Fire types; What Fire types can out speed Gara and what are the chances of OHKO'ing them? Also, how common is it for said Fire pokemon to carry Will-o-Wisp? Even with out WoW how much of a threat do they pose?

I'm on my phone right now so I can't do any calculations, but off the top of my head Zard X and POSSIBLY (again, no calcs) Zard Y could be problematic. If X can take an EQ it could easily go for WoW and then switch out. Y can set up sun and then use Solarbeam barring rocks. I agree that it's a bad idea to use water pokes as setup bait. Even choiced pokes that don't normally use scald could carry it as a means to deal with M-Gyara. It should be fine to bait choiced ground though, even though rocks could make the mind games involved a lot trickier. I'd like to get a final list of pokes to bait soon so that we can move on.

 

[Empress]

Boss jr. upon looking at the usage stats, here's what I found for OU Fire-types that carry WoW.
Heatran: 13.402%
Talonflame: 17.879%
Charizard: 17.038%

Heatran is not very difficult to handle; it's slower and is OHKOed by EQ, and 2HKOed by Waterfall if it carries an Air Balloon. Talonflame's Brave Bird bypasses our Speed Boosts, and here is the damage calculation:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 219-258 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But we OHKO back with Waterfall; even if burned we still dish out some damage.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 217-256 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As for Charizard, the X variant is handled.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 265-313 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 374-442 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So if we DD, we OHKO. If Charizard DD's, it can't OHKO, and if it attacks, we outspeed after a boost.
So is the Y variant.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 300-354 (100.6 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast or SolarBeam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 266-314 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We must beware WoW on all three, as the move is quite common- not the most common, but still seen fairly often. Still, if CAP 19 can patch that up, these viable Fire-types are taken care of.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Boss jr. upon looking at the usage stats, here's what I found for OU Fire-types that carry WoW.
Heatran: 13.402%
Talonflame: 17.879%
Charizard: 17.038%

Heatran is not very difficult to handle; it's slower and is OHKOed by EQ, and 2HKOed by Waterfall if it carries an Air Balloon. Talonflame's Brave Bird bypasses our Speed Boosts, and here is the damage calculation:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 219-258 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But we OHKO back with Waterfall; even if burned we still dish out some damage.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 217-256 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As for Charizard, the X variant is handled.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 265-313 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 374-442 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So if we DD, we OHKO. If Charizard DD's, it can't OHKO, and if it attacks, we outspeed after a boost.
So is the Y variant.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 300-354 (100.6 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast or SolarBeam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 266-314 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We must beware WoW on all three, as the move is quite common- not the most common, but still seen fairly often. Still, if CAP 19 can patch that up, these viable Fire-types are taken care of.

Remember, we're looking for Pokemon that we can set up on. That is to say, we only set up on these Pokemon if Dragon Dance is the first move we use. That being said, Talonflame we can't set up on, because he 2HKOs use at priority. Mega Chars we can set up on, because we outspeed it after Dragon Dance.

 

[Deck Knight]

Heatran can be set up on because its only threat is WoW and it is slower. ZardX can't because it can DD in our face and KO with Dragon Claw. ZardY's Solar Beam is problematic.

Ideally, CAP baits Ground types and Steel types, as Gyarados has the best matchups against them and they have poorer options against it.The threat of burns from both Water and Fire types makes them undesirable to bait. Ghost and Dark types are good bait after Gyarados Mega Evolves, but not before.