CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

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Deck Knight

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As per the results of our Typing Poll, CAP19 will be a Electric/Poison typed Pokemon. Based on this result and on the goals of our concept, we will in this thread be assessing how and to what degree the CAP should interact with various other Pokemon in the metagame, both offensively and defensively. The goal is to come up with a list of Pokemon the CAP should threaten in common gameplay scenarios, as well as Pokemon that should threaten the CAP. Our Topic Leader Pwnemon will be leading the discussion and finalizing the Threats list at the conclusion of this thread. The final say belongs to the TL (there will be no poll at the end of this thread), so please focus your arguments on his posts and questions. Here are some preliminary questions to think about in this thread:
  • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
  • What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
  • What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
  • What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
  • Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats?
  • Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
  • What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
  • Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
  • Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
  • What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
  • What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
  • What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?
Obviously, no individual post has to answer every question. Please keep the assumptions minimal (e.g. "CAP19 will have at least one STAB") to avoid poll-jumping. This thread will be opened once Pwnemon has posted his opening remarks.

- - - - -
CAP19 So Far:

Concept:
Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
  • How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
  • Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
  • Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
  • Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"
Type: Electric / Poison
Leadership Team:

Pwnemon- Topic Leader
ginganinja - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Typing Leader
alexwolf - Movepool Leader
Deck Knight - Stats Leader
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
Hey! A big thanks to srk1214 for leading the typing discussion, and leading us to a good typing to work with. Fortunately, the top half of our threats discussion is going to be laser-focused thanks to the nature of our concept, so let's get started.

1) What can Gyarados set up on?
2) Which of these does the CAP not necessarily beat via typing?

While it's not at all a law that everything chosen through this filter must counter CAP19, we should make sure that CAP19's best counters all come from this pool of Pokemon. srk1214 made a good preliminary list of things to lose and not lose to in this post.

As for what we want the CAP to threaten, well... we want the CAP to work on teams with Mega Gyarados. Beyond that, we're not really sure. So let's get started with these questions.

1) What Pokemon do Mega Gyarados teams have trouble with?
2) What team roles could a pokemon on a Mega Gyarados team fill? (with respect to our typing; despite our best efforts a poison/electric will probably never be a physically defensive Spikes user)
 

Empress

Warning: may contain traces of nuts
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Well, I guess I will set the pace.
What can Gyarados set up on?
We have definitely established this in our discussions. It can set up on many things, like Greninja, Garchomp, Choice-locked Ground and Fire attacks, and through my (little) experience on the OU suspect ladder, Landorus-I, Excadrill (when Mega), Bisharp, and Keldeo (when regular).

Which of these does the CAP not necessarily beat via typing?
Obviously, CAP 19 does not like Ground attacks. It cannot beat Garchomp, Landorus (either) or Excadrill, and one of its STABs is hard walled by Bisharp. It also could lose to Extrasensory Greninja.

What Pokemon do Mega Gyarados teams have trouble with?
Mega Gyarados teams must prepare for things like Thundurus, who not only beats Gyara with his STAB, but can use Prankster Thunder Wave to cripple Gyarados' more offensively inclined teammates, like Kyurem-B and Lati@s. They also struggle with Unaware users like Quagsire and Clefable, as Unaware pokes stop Gyarados' sweep almost instantly. Though Excadrill is a common teammate for Gyara, aside from it, most Gyarados teams get shut down by Fairies. (Okay, most things in the entire game get shut down by that insanely broken type, but that's a different story.) Scarf and Priority users also bypass our Speed boosts; in particular scarfed Rotom-W can whittle us down with Volt Switch, and Garchomp beats Gyarados that lack Ice Fang. Physical walls, of course, shut down Gyara and its physically-oriented teammates of Talonflame and Kyurem-B. A physical tank + Chansey core eats Gyarados teams for breakfast.

What roles could a Pokémon on a Mega Gyarados team fill?
Gyarados itself struggles mainly with Electric and Fairy types. Considering that most Electric and Fairy attackers come from the Special side, I could envision this CAP becoming a Special tank. It already checks important threats that hit from the Physical side, such as Terrakion's Close Combat and Ferrothorn's Power Whip. As for which way our offense should come (i.e. Physical/Special), I was thinking Special, as most of Gyarados' ideal teammates are physical attackers. Granted, that still leaves us walled by Specially Defensive Clefable and Sylveon, so Mixed could be the way to go. Additionally, Dragon Dance Gyarados usually prefers Ice Fang over Taunt, so I could see us working as a faster Taunt user to cripple stall Pokémon that otherwise threaten Gyarados; Quagsire and Skarmory, for instance.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
What can Gyarados set up on?
We have generally already discussed most of what needs to be discussed for this question the typing discussion thread, infact we have already established a list there

Bisharp (Dark/Steel)
Chansey (Normal)
Charizard X (Dragon/Fire) (non-WoW sets)
Crawduant (Water/Dark)
Excadrill (Ground/Steel)
Garchomp (Dragon/Ground)
Gliscor (Ground/Flying)
Greninja (Water/Dark)
Heatran (Fire/Steel)
Keldeo (Water/Fighting)
Landorus Base/Therian (Flying/Ground)
Mamoswine (Ground/Ice)
Scizor Base (Bug/Steel)

While I personally disagree with Heatran because of the dangerous we have if we get burned, this is a good list to use. Keep in mind that for pokes like Excadrill and Garchomp, we are generally saying that we can set up on these pokes if they are choice locked into a non SE move.

Which of these does the CAP not necessarily beat via typing?
We are honestly beat by most of these pokes via typing. Excadrill, Garchomp, Landorus, Gliscor, and Mamoswine can all beat us easily through a 4x STAB Earthquake, in the case of Landorus usually Earth Power, and resist one of our STABs and are immune to the other STAB, in the case of Excadrill it actually is immune to both of our STABs. Greninja can also hit us with a SE Extrasensory, although because Greninna is originally part water type there is a possibility that we will be able to hit it with our SE Electric STAB. Mega Charizard X also resists one of our STABs and can hit us back with both of its stabs for neutral damage, and if it carries Earthquake it can be a pretty big threat to us. Heatran is in quite a similar case to Mega Charizard X, except its immune to one of our STABs and can't really hit us back for SE damage on its typical set.
 
1) What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
Right off the bat, Mega-Medicham, Mega-Gardevoir, Quagsire, and Mega-Pinsir all the biggest counters this set up if we aren't careful.
Mega-Medicham could easily OHKO CAP with Psycho Cut and threaten to OHKO the Gyarados if the Thunder Punch/High-Jump Kick prediction goes badly for you. Even if Mega-Med messes up the prediction, it will still deal about 60% even with the Intimidate drop. To counteract this, we probably either want high health and good defensive stats or high speed and good offensive stats.

Mega-Gardevoir can Hyper Voice twice to kill Gyrados in either form, and the Dragon Dance boost isn't enough to get through. If Gardevoir is faster, the Psychic/Psyshock will smite CAP. If CAP is faster and has Poison STAB, that will destroy Mega-Gardevoir. So Speed is probably the solution here, unless we want it to be Chansey-level bulky.

Unaware Quagsire actually Toxic Stall Ice Fang variants of Gyarados, so if we want to support that variant (which we probably should), we need to be able to do at least 70% to Quagsire before it kicks the bucket or give CAP the bulk to pull off a Toxic Stall set or give it a grass type move to play with. If you look at the list of Ground types we want to encourage, only Mamoswine is actually weak to Grass, so the latter isn't as bad an option as it may first appear. Pretty much any answer would work.

Pinsir is the worst though. Pinsir OHKOs CAP with Earthquake, gets the Moxie boost to counter regular Gyarados's Intimidate, and strikes in with Return and Quick Attack for the kill. Gyarados deals on average 55% damage to Mega-Pinsir with Ice Fang, so this isn't even a Rotom-W case, where you're still favored but can't set up. You will straight up lose this confrontation unless CAP can KO Pinsir in non-Mega form. Thankfully, Pinsir never gets faster than Gardevoir, so if we want CAP to beat Gardevoir's Speed, it'll beat Pinsir's too, so we only need probably a coverage move with super effective power on Pinsir. I recommend Rock, because it works on Thundurus too.

2) What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
DragonSpam actually has the potential to stop our sweep. Life Orb Garchomp can take down CAP, then deal decent enough damage to Gyrados that a Scarfmon can take it out. So we should keep in mind that somebody on the team should probably have Knock Off if CAP doesn't.

There are a few other cores that can break this apart, but many of them are built around Pokemon with Choice Scarfs, so Knock off seems incredibly handy to have. That being said, it probably doesn't need to be on CAP, since the format has a ton of good Knock Off users that you probably want to use anyway.


3) What team roles could a pokemon on a Mega Gyarados team fill?
Why not a Special Sweeper? Mega-Gyarados can actually take care of most non-physically-defensive Pokemon, so a Special Sweeper would be wonderful. Electric Poison is wonderful typing, since it has super effective coverage on a good number of Special Walls. We can also have it be a Wall Breaker, since Ice Fang Gyarados can have trouble with walls.
 
  • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU (or relevant) metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?: Okay, so I've compiled a rather large list of things spanning UU, BL, and OU that we might want to keep an eye out for just so that we don't get surprised. The last 3 are iffy though so I don't know *shrugs* (Marked pokes that might be able to threaten wit "(?)"). I've focused in on pokemon which have at least neutral/resistant to CAP 19's dual typing. A couple of the things here (which were already mentioned) are even completely immune to BOTH of CAP 19's STAB moves. Which pretty much relegates us to switching out, sacking CAP 19 or trying to scratch the opponent with HP (insert proffered type here).
    • Excadrill immune/immune
    • Magnezone resist/immune
    • Ferrothorn resist/immune
    • Mega-Mawile neutral/immune
    • Quagsire immune/resist
    • Mamoswine immune/resist
    • Landorus immune/resist
    • Gliscor immune/resist
    • Garchomp immune/resist
    • Venusaur resist/neutral
    • Terrikon neutral/resist ; If Terrikon breaks through CAP 19 and hit's on MGyara for SE then we have failed.
    • Lati@s resist/neutral ; Hits back with STAB SE Psychic
    • Metagross neutral/immune ; Hits back with STAB SE Psychic
    • Jirachi neutral/immune ; Hits back with STAB SE Psychic
    • Scolipede neutral/resist ; Why? Speed Boost, Life Orb, Earthquake.... That's Why!
    • Scizor (?) neutral/immune
    • Gengar (?) neutral/ 4x resist
    • Mega-Ampharos 4x resist/neutral ; Most sets carry Focus Blast. Not a big deal for CAP 19 so much as it is MGyara
    • Diggersby immune/resist ; Choice Scarf EQ would pretty much take CAP 19out
    • Klefki neutral/immune
    • Zygrade immune/resist
    • Krookodile immune/resist ; EQ + Moxie = OWNED. +1 Attack + Stone Edge on Gyarados (before going Mega) = Big Pain! GIGANTE'!
    • Lucario (?) neutral/immune ; EQ on CAP 19, Close Combat on MGyara
    • Mega-Aggron (?) neutral/immune ; EQ on CAP 19, Thunder Wave on MGyara, ParaFlinch Hax with Iron Head from there.
    • Mega-Alakazam (?) neutral/neutral ; Freakishly fast STAB Psychic and then Focus Blast on Mgyara.
    • Heatran neutral/immune ; even without Choice Scarf, Earth Power could be an issue.
 
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  • Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU (or relevant) metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?: Okay, so I've compiled a rather large list of things spanning UU, BL, and OU that we might want to keep an eye out for just so that we don't get surprised. The last 3 are iffy though so I don't know *shrugs*. I've focused in on pokemon which have at least neutral/resistant to CAP 19's dual typing. A couple of the things here (which were already mentioned) are even completely immune to BOTH of CAP 19's STAB moves. Which pretty much relegates us to switching out, sacking CAP 19 or trying to scratch the opponent with HP (insert proffered type here).
    • Excadrill immune/immune
    • Magnezone resist/immune
    • Ferrothorn neutral/immune
    • Mega-Mawile neutral/immune
    • Quagsire immune/neutral
    • Mamoswine immune/neutral
    • Landorus immune/resist
    • Gliscor immune/resist
    • Garchomp immune/resist
    • Venusaur resist/resist
    • Terrikon neutral/resist ; If Terrikon breaks through CAP 19 and hit's on MGyara for SE then we have failed.
    • Lati@s resist/neutral ; Hits back with STAB SE Psychic
    • Metagross neutral/immune ; Hits back with STAB SE Psychic
    • Jirachi neutral/immune ; Hits back with STAB SE Psychic
    • Scolipede neutral/resist ; Why? Speed Boos, Life Orb, Earthquake.... That's Why!
    • Scizor (?) neutral/immune
    • Gengar (?) neutral/resist
    • Mega-Ampharos 4x resist/neutral ; Most sets carry Focus Blast. Not a big deal for CAP 19 so much as it is MGyara
    • Diggersby immune/resist ; Choice Scarf EQ would pretty much take CAP 19out
    • Klefki neutral/immune
    • Zygrade immune/resist
    • Krookodile immune/resist ; EQ + Moxie = OWNED. +1 Attack + Stone Edge on Gyarados (before going Mega) = Big Pain! GIGANTE'!
    • Lucario (?) neutral/immune ; EQ on CAP 19, Close Combat on MGyara
    • Mega-Aggron (?) neutral/immune ; EQ on CAP 19, Thunder Wave on MGyara, ParaFlinch Hax with Iron Head from there.
    • Mega-Alakazam (?) neutral/neutral ; Freakishly fast STAB Psychic and then Focus Blast on Mgyara.
Actually, there are several here which are wrong and actually make CAP worse off:
  • Ferrothorn resist/immune
  • Magnezone quad resist/immune
  • Quagsire immune/resist
  • Mamoswine immune/resist
  • Venusaur resist/neutral
  • Gengar neutral/quad resist
So theres that.
 

ginganinja

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Heavily recommending that we should not end up getting walled by Excadrill, AND that we can prevent Gliscor setting up a substitute on this CAP. You can want to lure in Gliscor all you like, but if it gets up a Sub on this CAP, its simply going to Toxic stall you out, and Gyarados cannot beat a Sub Toxic Gliscor behind a substitute. Obviously Excadrill is a pretty strong set up mon, so at least discouraging it from setting up a Swords Dance would be really nice, because giving Excadrill free switches is not really a good idea, especially if its used with sand support (and most are).
 
Actually, there are several here which are wrong and actually make CAP worse off:
  • Ferrothorn resist/immune
  • Magnezone quad resist/immune
  • Quagsire immune/resist
  • Mamoswine immune/resist
  • Venusaur resist/neutral
  • Gengar neutral/quad resist
So theres that.
Dang, Good work! Missed that! Also, I left off Bisharp. I don't think it can really threaten but depending on the stats and move pool it might try to set up. Forgot Heatran though too and that could actually be a problem because of variants with Earth Power.

Edit: I've edited my post to accommodate the corrections Yellow made and to add Heatran.
 
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Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Dang, Good work! Missed that! Also, I left off Bisharp. I don't think it can really threaten but depending on the stats and move pool it might try to set up. Forgot Heatran though too and that could actually be a problem because of variants with Earth Power.

Edit: I've edited my post to accommodate the corrections Yellow made and to add Heatran.
Steel does not resist Electric, its only a regular resist for Electric
 
Heavily recommending that we should not end up getting walled by Excadrill, AND that we can prevent Gliscor setting up a substitute on this CAP. You can want to lure in Gliscor all you like, but if it gets up a Sub on this CAP, its simply going to Toxic stall you out, and Gyarados cannot beat a Sub Toxic Gliscor behind a substitute. Obviously Excadrill is a pretty strong set up mon, so at least discouraging it from setting up a Swords Dance would be really nice, because giving Excadrill free switches is not really a good idea, especially if its used with sand support (and most are).
That's a good point. I'm not sure it would take much to break Gliscor's sub if CAP ends up specially oriented, but this is pretty important to keep in mind if CAP ends up physical, since Gliscor is pretty bulky.
 
As we already discussed and compiled a list on what Gyarados can set up on, I shan't bother to repeat it.

Of these pokemon the ones that CAP cannot beat through typing are:
Ground types - Excadrill, Gliscor, Landorus, Mamoswine, Garchomp, Krookodile. I agree with Ginganinja in regards to avoiding being hard walled by Excadrill and preventing Gliscor from subbing up, they could prove problematic to Gyarados if they're too comfortable in CAP's presence.
I think it's also worth mentioning that while Mega-Gyarados can outspeed and OHKO Mamoswine; it would be a risk set up on it out of the possibility it could be carrying Superpower, providing Gyarados is already in mega-form. The same also applies to Krookodile who outspeeds Gyarados and has tools to dispose both Gyarados forms if predicted correctly.
In fact, the majority of these ground types are better for Gyarados to set up on with the buffer of intimidate. Therefore it seems very important to me that the ground types should not be able to set up on CAP19. I'm going to mention Tyranitar here as well since it often carries Earthquake and would beat CAP, and Gyarados would be much safer setting up on Tyranitar with the attack drop from Intimidate.

The water type pokemon that Gyarados can set up on ideally wouldn't want to be in against CAP, with the exception of Greninja carrying Extrasensory..
I think it's very important that CAP can be countered by Greninja as Gyarados can easily set up on the standard Greninja set.

Earthpower Heatran would beat CAP19, but could be problematic for Gyarados to set up on with common moves being WoW and Roar.
Similarly Charizard-X beats CAP with earthquake, and we would have to be careful not to let it set up, else it would spell trouble for Gyarados.

I believe that's the extent of OU pokemon that would give CAP trouble but can, under the right circumstance, allow Gyarados to set up.


The pokemon Mega-Gyarados teams struggle with are prankster users, especially Thundurus and Sableye, and to a lesser extent Whimsicott and Klefki. They also struggle with physical walls Skarmory, Mandibuzz and Ferrothorn if Gyarados has not set up. By typing alone CAP 19 deters Skarmory and Mandibuzz from coming in. Thundurus and Sableye are still able to come in against CAP19 although I don't believe Thundurus would be able to do much to it based on its standard set. Ferrothorn is a really big issue as it can wall CAP19 based on typing, similarly to Excadrill we could do with taking measures to ensure Ferrothorn doesn't hard wall us.
They also struggle with unaware users, Clefable and Quagsire. CAP19 beats Clefable on typing, but struggles against Quagsire.

A couple of OU pokemon that can trouble our duo are Kyurem-B carrying Earth power and Fusion Bolt. Mega-Pinsir earthquake would KO CAP19, leaving it in a perfect position to use Return a couple of times to net a Gyarados KO.


I think the role that would suit CAP19 is utility offense, similar to Thundurus, Heatran, Lati@s, etc. This should theoretically give CAP19 the means to prevent pokemon on the opposing team from setting up and would also check Ferrothorn, Heatran and whirlwind/roar users. It should also provide adequate offense so that not just any pokemon can beat it.
 
One of my more favorable discussions.

I think CAP19 should share a two-way threat with a few of the Pokémon Boss jr. listed.
However, CAP19 should prioritize in threatening Gliscor, Keldeo and Mega-Gardevoir, as those seem to give Mega Gyarados trouble in the long run.

I would like for CAP19 to be threatened by both Landorus (w/o Life Orb), Garchomp, Excadrill, and general non-Ground EQ users.
Opponents that should comfortably take on CAP19 should include Special walls, as this does not interfere with physical walls, like Gliscor, who give Gyarados trouble.
I suggest that CAP19 be faster than them, but not necessarily bulky enough to survive their attacks.
 
  • What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?: Okay, the way I'm interpreting this is that the following pokemon threaten the "goal" of the CAP 19 concept. That being the case they have to be able to deal with both our CAP pokemon and Gyarados in turn. Even though Gyarados is not the only pokemon that can run with CAP 19, and since we've spent an absolutely extravagant amount of time tailoring to Gyarados specifically (dispite it being noted by several other members, including myself) that CAP 19 is NOT "Perfect Mate; Gyarados Edition" I will ignore anything that doesn't threaten to Faint both CAP 19 and Gyarados Base/Mega specifically.
    • Excadrill; May WALL CAP 19 completely and threaten Gyara (but not MGyara) with Rock Slide.
    • Ferrothorn; Is a HUGE issue. Walls CAP and threatens MGyara with TW and Power Whip.
    • Quagsire: EQ's CAP and Scald stalls M/Gyara
    • Mamoswine: This is debatable. EQ clearly kills CAP but Gyara could survive everything else. EQ hits after Mega Evolving but STAB ice hits for Neutral before. Lastly Endeavor could end all sweep opportunities if the next pokemon in line has a priority move powerful enough to revenge kill....
    • Landorus: Focus Blast Lando... 'Nuf said.
    • Gliscor: EQ on CAP, Toxic - Roost stall Gyara? (could that work?)
    • Garchomp: EQ on CAP and Stone Edge on Gyara before Mega.
    • Terrikon: Life Orb version EQ's on CAP 19 Stone Edge and Close Combat for Either of Gyara's forms.
    • Lati@s: Latios is pretty straight forward. EQ on CAP Thunderbolt Gyara. Latias on the other hand is more indirect by basically playing the same role as CAP. Psyshock CAP, Defog to remove hazards, Beats up on Gyara and then uses Healing Wish to bring in a healthy counter (I'm looking at you Thundrus).
    • Metagross: (?)
    • Jirachi: TW Zen Headbutt to take CAP out safely, TW and Iron Head or U-Turn to screw over Gyara or Take it out.
    • Scolipede: EQ on Cap. Protect and Speed Boost let it out Speed MGyara. Megahorn for SE.
    • Zygrade: Perhaps.... Land's Wrath and Glare could be nasty. And he can out speed Gyara too.
    • Krookodile: Even with Intimidate the Krook could prove to be a problem.
    • Mega-Aggron: EQ, TW, Iron Head. It doesn't out speed until after TW'ing Gyara then Para-flinch hax.
    • Mega-Alakazam: This is dependent upon Gyarados having already gone Mega. Psychic/Psyshock on CAP, Focus Blast on MGyara.
    • Heatran: Is a big bag of nasty tricks! Heat Wave, Earth Power, Roar, Substitute.... the list goes on :/ .
I'm starting to think that we should have picked something to pair with Gyarados that could set up instead just in case something like this happened. I'm sure people will compensate when they start play testing but still.... (why are the Grass/Ghost pokemon so lame LOL).

Edit: @The Pizza Man; I fixed it. Everything else is right though..... right? Are there any disagreements on any of either of the two lists?
 
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Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
What Pokemon do Mega Gyarados teams have trouble with?
Mega Gyarados teams tend to have the most trouble with Thundurus. Thundurus can easily take on most of Mega Gyarados' teamates and will be able to severly cripple and/or KO Mega Gyarados easily. Mega Gyarados teams also tend to not like fairy types very much. With the exceptions of Excadrill and Ferrothorn, Mega Gyarados' team can't really reliably take on most fairy types. Also Mega Gyarados can't do it itself and it is completely destroyed by Fairy types. Obviously, Powerful Physical walls tend to give Mega Gyarados problems too.

What team roles could a pokemon on a Mega Gyarados team fill?
I'm kinda thinking a Special Wallbreaker. Mega Gyarados could really appreciate a Pokemon to help take out a couple Physical walls. Pokemon like Gliscor don't really like being hit by a special attack while at the same time a good amount of the Pokemon we want to lure can be pretty bulky on the special side.
 

alexwolf

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1) What can Gyarados set up on?

For this question, i will assume Mega Gyarados's best and most consistent set, three attacks with Ice Fang, and little to no risk for Gyarados to set up. Also, i will assume Gyarados will be in its regular forme when facing those Pokemon, to take advantage of Intimidate (which is what happens most of the time in practice anyway). Finally, i will assume no SR being up, as Gyarados's set up chances drastically decrease with SR on the field.
  • Choice Band Azumarill locked into anything except from Play Rough
  • Landorus
  • Keldeo locked into anything except from Hidden Power Electric / Scald
  • Excadrill outside of sand
  • Landorus-T
  • Garchomp
  • Greninja
  • Mega Scizor and regular Scizor
  • Choiced Fire-types (Choice Band Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, Scarf Heatran, Scarf and Band Victini locked to anything other than Bolt Strike)
  • Hippowdon without phazing
  • Gliscor that lacks Toxic and is not faster than Mega Gyarados + Taunt (EQ + Knock Off SpD Gliscor, SR + Taunt + U-turn Gliscor)
  • Dragon Dance Dragonite
  • Mamoswine
  • Starmie without Thunderbolt
  • Weavile
  • Rhyperior without Toxic / Roar
  • Assault Vest Tornadus-T
  • Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar (except from CB Stone Edge, which does over half)

2) Which of these does the CAP not necessarily beat via typing?

Keldeo (Specs Hydro Pump could OHKO depending on bulk), Landorus, Excadrill, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Greninja (Extrasensory could OHKO us), Mega Scizor, Heatran, Victini, Choice Band Talonflame (Flare Blitz could OHKO, depending on our bulk), Starmie, Gliscor, Mamoswine, Weavile, Dragonite, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, and Mega Tyranitar. Basically, all of the Pokemon in the list except from Azumarill, which gets outsped and OHKOed, and Tornadus-T, which is walled and OHKO / 2HKOed.


3) What Pokemon do Mega Gyarados teams have trouble with?

Hard checks and counters to Mega Gyarados that are not easy to weaken or lure. For example, an offensive team with Keldeo can easily check Mega Gyarados as long as the opponent hasn't paired Mega Gyarados with Pokemon that only Keldeo can handle (Choice Band Scizor, Bisharp, Choiced Tyranitar) on Keldeo's team. Such Pokemon are: Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physically defensive Amoonguss, and Alomomola. Some Pokemon that can check Mega Gyarados but are easy to wear down are: Azumarill (usually needed to handle a lot of different threats, and is so slow that it almost always needs to take a hit before dishing one), Mega Venusaur (expected to handle a lot of Pokemon, many of which can cripple it with burns, such as Rotom-W and Keldeo, making it easy to wear down), and Kyurem-B (Stealth Rock weak, making it very easy to wear down with double switches). Also Mega Gyarados teams have troubles with fast revenge killers (scarf Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Garchomp, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl), Thunder Wave Thundurus, and Breloom, because those Pokemon will be kept alive throughout the game to check Mega Gyarados. The CAP should either help lure and cripple those Pokemon or take advantage of their presence, with whatever way we find to be the best.


4) What team roles could a pokemon on a Mega Gyarados team fill? (with respect to our typing; despite our best efforts a poison/electric will probably never be a physically defensive Spikes user)

Healing Wish user would be one of the most interesting roles for this CAP, to mitigate the issue of Mega Gyarados getting revenge killed easily, while simultaneously giving a free switch in to Mega Gyarados. For example, Mega Gyarados sets up once, the opponent sacrifices something, and then brings in Thundurus to Thunder Wave Mega Gyarados, while dying to +1 Waterfall. Then, the CAP heals Mega Gyarados which is now free to sweep. This also works well against teams that rely on multiple priority users to check Mega Gyarados, slowly putting it to KO range, something that Healing Wish mitigates (KO first priority user with +1 Mega Gyarados, switch out of the second priority user that wants to finish off Gyarados, use Healing Wish with CAP and Mega Gyarados is free to sweep). Other than this, the CAP could obviously be a good pivot with Volt Switch to help bring Gyarados in safely (or with double switches if we expect a Ground-type to come in), a cleric (Wish + Heal Bell / Aromatherapy are very beneficial to Mega Gyarados, as many of its offensive checks lack recovery or rely on status to deal with it, eg. Thundurus), a wallbreaker that takes advantage of the Pokemon that Mega Gyarados has troubles with, a late-game cleaner that sets up on Mega Gyarados's revenge killers, and an utility check to dangerous Pokemon such as Breloom, Thundurus, Azumarill, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, etc. Regardless, this is not a discussion we should be having now imo.

So, to sum things up:
  • The CAP should be checked or countered by most Ground-types
  • The CAP should be checked or at least lose 1 v 1 against most physical attackers that Mega Gyarados can set up on, as long as it doesn't have a typing advantage against them (so we shouldn't lose to Mega Scizor) such as Dragonite, Weavile, and Tyranitar
  • The CAP should be able to either lure and cripple or take advantage of (which most likely translates to check or counter) Pokemon such as Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physically defensive Amoonguss, Alomomola, Scarf Terrakion, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, Thundurus, and Breloom
 
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aim

pokeaimMD
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1) What can Gyarados set up on?

For this question, i will assume Mega Gyarados's best and most consistent set, three attacks with Ice Fang, and little to no risk for Gyarados to set up. Also, i will assume Gyarados will be in its regular forme when facing those Pokemon, to take advantage of Intimidate (which is what happens most of the time in practice anyway). Finally, i will assume no SR being up, as Gyarados's set up chances drastically decrease with SR on the field.
  • Choice Band Azumarill locked into anything except from Play Rough
  • Landorus
  • Keldeo locked into anything except from Hidden Power Electric / Scald
  • Excadrill outside of sand
  • Landorus-T
  • Garchomp
  • Greninja
  • Mega Scizor and regular Scizor
  • Choiced Fire-types (Choice Band Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, Scarf Heatran, Scarf and Band Victini locked to anything other than Bolt Strike)
  • Hippowdon without phazing
  • Gliscor that lacks Toxic and is not faster than Mega Gyarados + Taunt (EQ + Knock Off SpD Gliscor, SR + Taunt + U-turn Gliscor)
  • Dragon Dance Dragonite
  • Mamoswine
  • Starmie without Thunderbolt
  • Weavile
  • Rhyperior without Toxic / Roar
  • Assault Vest Tornadus-T
  • Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar (except from CB Stone Edge, which does over half)

2) Which of these does the CAP not necessarily beat via typing?

Keldeo (Specs Hydro Pump could OHKO depending on bulk), Landorus, Excadrill, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Greninja (Extrasensory could OHKO us), Mega Scizor, Heatran, Victini, Choice Band Talonflame (Flare Blitz could OHKO, depending on our bulk), Starmie, Gliscor, Mamoswine, Weavile, Dragonite, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, and Mega Tyranitar. Basically, all of the Pokemon in the list except from Azumarill, which gets outsped and OHKOed, and Tornadus-T, which is walled and OHKO / 2HKOed.


3) What Pokemon do Mega Gyarados teams have trouble with?

Hard checks or counters to Mega Gyarados that are not easy to weaken or lure. For example, an offensive team with Keldeo can easily check Mega Gyarados as long as the opponent hasn't paired Mega Gyarados with Pokemon that only Keldeo can handle (Choice Band Scizor, Bisharp, Choiced Tyranitar). Such Pokemon are: Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physically defensive Amoonguss, and Alomomola. Some Pokemon that can check Mega Gyarados but are easy to wear down are: Azumarill (usually needed to handle a lot of different threats, and is so slow that it almost always needs to take a hit before dishing one), Mega Venusaur (expected to handle a lot of Pokemon, many of which can cripple it with burns, making it easy to wear down, such as Rotom-W and Keldeo), and Kyurem-B (Stealth Rock weak, making it very easy to wear down with double switches). Also Mega Gyarados teams have troubles with fast revenge killers (scarf Keldeo, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Garchomp, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl), Thunder Wave Thundurus, and Breloom, because those Pokemon will be kept alive throughout the game to check Mega Gyarados. The CAP should either help lure and cripple those Pokemon or take advantage of their presence, with whatever way we find to be the best.


4) What team roles could a pokemon on a Mega Gyarados team fill? (with respect to our typing; despite our best efforts a poison/electric will probably never be a physically defensive Spikes user)

Healing Wish user would be one of the most interesting roles for this CAP, to mitigate the issue of Mega Gyarados getting revenge killed easily, while simultaneously giving a free switch in to Mega Gyarados. For example, Mega Gyarados sets up once, the opponent sacrifices something, and then brings in Thundurus to Thunder Wave Mega Gyarados, while dying to +1 Waterfall. Then, the CAP heals Mega Gyarados which is now free to sweep. This also works well against teams that rely on multiple priority users to check Mega Gyarados, slowly putting it to KO range, something that Healing Wish mitigates (KO first priority user with +1 Mega Gyarados, switch out of the second priority user that wants to finish off Gyarados, use Healing Wish with CAP and Mega Gyarados is free to sweep). Other than this, the CAP could obviously be a good pivot with Volt Switch to help bring Gyarados in safely (or with double switches if we expect a Ground-type to come in), a cleric (Wish + Heal Bell / Aromatherapy are very beneficial to Mega Gyarados, as many of its offensive checks lack recovery or rely on status to deal with it, eg. Thundurus), a wallbreaker that takes advantage of the Pokemon that Mega Gyarados has troubles with, a late-game cleaner that sets up on Mega Gyarados's revenge killers, and an utility check to dangerous Pokemon such as Breloom, Thundurus, Azumarill, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, etc. Regardless, this is not a discussion we should be having now imo.

So, to sum things up:
  • The CAP should be checked or countered by most Ground-types
  • The CAP should be checked or at least lose 1 v 1 against most physical attackers that Mega Gyarados can set up on, as long as it doesn't have a typing advantage against them (so we shouldn't lose to Mega Scizor) such as Dragonite, Weavile, and Tyranitar
  • The CAP should be able to either lure and cripple or take advantage of (which most likely translates to check or counter) Pokemon such as Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physically defensive Amoonguss, Alomomola, Scarf Terrakion, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, Thundurus, and Breloom
Agreeing with alexwolf. For CAP 19 to be extremely effective it should force in mons like Scizor/Excadrill/Greninja, lose to them, and allow Gyara an easy set up. I'd have posted my own list but his basically touched upon everything.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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far warning the things that mega gyarados hates/enjoys has already been discussed to death so i'm just going to overlook that, and instead this post will discuss what i think CAP19's role should be.

going to raise my opposition to Healing Wish, it doesn't encourage the opponent trying to avoid killing CAP 19, and it's way too early to name specific moves. i also dislike pivot, as pivots are really hard to kill by nature, and 'slippery bastard' doesn't really spell CAP19

okay that out of the way, CAP 19's role...first, we need to look at what pokemon mega gyarados has historically worked well with in the past. for starters, as mega dos has historically been a late-game mon, as set-up sweepers often are, offensive wallbreakers that soften up the enemy team have always been heavily appreciated. we can look at mons like kyurem-b to support this avenue. It enjoys defog/raipd spin users, but then again, most set-up sweepers do. It enjoys Stealth Rock immensely, but again, that's a common trait to many set-up sweepers. It also enjoys heal bell, and wish, thanks to the prevalance of stray random obnoxious burns as well as the huge rise of Thundurus.

considering that healing wish is off the table for being anti-concept, we have to ask ourselves "what role would necessitate having a easily exploited weakness, as well as being killed quickly?" going by the prior mentioned favored support possibilities, we can immediately rule out defog/stealth rocks. the primary reason being that these two roles are "one and done;" once the mon gets in that one turn to perform its role, and it WILL be fishing for that one turn, it immediately becomes much less of a threat, as the damage has already been done. cleirc is a plausible route, but i feel it is a very narrow route, and sways us too heavily with the seduction of healing wish, which again i feel is anti-concept. and again, it's very 'one and done,' insofar as danger goes. thus, we are left with the role of wallkbreaker - a mon designed to blow holes in the opponent's defenses, holes that mega gyrados can then abuse to sweep.

unlike the other roles, a wallbreaker is a threat for every turn it is out - you want to neutralize it asap, as the longer it gets to stay out, the more damage it does. CAP19 already has a typing that naturally encourages this as well - having very obvious, and exploitable weaknesses, it will be easy to put the opponent in a position where they would enjoy switching in a mon that can easily kill CAP19, due to the damage it can inflict. however, taking the 'easy way out' of killing CAP19 with, say, a ground type attack from Landorus-T, now leaves their shit utterly wrecked by Mega Gyrados, who will be more then happy to either inflict mass damage, or abuse the holes CAP19 opened and proceed to sweep. another positive to this approach is that mega gyarados isn't the only mon that enjoys a wallbreaker - many other pokemon in XY OU, such as dragonite, scizor, and mega zard x, also enjoy having mons that open the holes they need to sweep.
 
Pokemon that aren't OU viable really shouldn't even be discussed. Krookodile? Rhyperior? Starmie?
All of those mons are outclassed.

For us to succeed, we need to stay focused on what is actually relevant in the OU metagame.

The mons gyarados is most commonly teamed up with:
  • Landorus +29.901% | Meloetta +29.405% | Gengar +28.321% | Ferrothorn +26.896% | Conkeldurr +26.186% | Aegislash +6.977% | Breloom +6.756% | Kyurem-Black +3.381% | Thundurus +2.880% | Latios +0.764% | Diggersby +0.606% | Sylveon +0.597%
Make what you will of that.
 

alexwolf

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Pokemon that aren't OU viable really shouldn't even be discussed. Krookodile? Rhyperior? Starmie?
All of those mons are outclassed.

For us to succeed, we need to stay focused on what is actually relevant in the OU metagame.

The mons gyarados is most commonly teamed up with:
  • Landorus +29.901% | Meloetta +29.405% | Gengar +28.321% | Ferrothorn +26.896% | Conkeldurr +26.186% | Aegislash +6.977% | Breloom +6.756% | Kyurem-Black +3.381% | Thundurus +2.880% | Latios +0.764% | Diggersby +0.606% | Sylveon +0.597%
Make what you will of that.
I agree that Krookodile is not worth discussing, but both Starmie and Rhyperior are pretty viable Pokemon in this metagame, which is why they reside in B rank. Also, i agree with nyttyn that going the wallbreaker route is the best course of action, though i still don't get why we are having this discussion here.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Given the versatility of Gyarados, I think the best course of action would be a Pokemon built around Offense + One Move Support. We want CAP to be able to lure in Pokemon like Ferrothorn that can wall it, but will not like suffering from, say, Taunt. It can lure in Pokemon like Chansey, but Safeguard or Misty Terrain gives Gyarados the status protection it needs to get that setup turn. Meanwhile we want CAP to completely remove reliable counters like Skarmory, Thundurus, or specially offensive Fairies. Our target is really only those Pokemon that don't rely on support moves to thwart Gyarados. This combined with the typing fills a niche that does not presently exist within its "Team Options" Section, which includes:

Offensive Partners:
Excadrill (Rapid Spin)
Latios [Defog]
Latias [Defog]
Kyurem-B
Scizor [Defog]
Starmie (Rapid Spin)
Talonflame

Defensive Partners:
Clefable
Ferrothorn
Sylveon
Zapdos [Defog]

While there are a few Pokemon here than can address Fairies, few do so in an environment conducive to Mega-Gyarados. Scizor can Bullet Punch Mega-Garde but as we're using Mega Gyara, it can't Mega Evolve to Mega Scizor to pick up the SpD buff. Excadrill only outspeeds Mega-Garde in Sand, although offensive variants outrun Gardevoir the first turn. Assault Vest Excadrill is also a thing but that set isn't nearly as threatening as the offense oriented ones.

As such, here's my thoughts on our target lists:

CAP19 should check/counter:
Skarmory
Thundurus
Azumarill
Specially Offensive Fairies (Mega-Garde, Sylveon)

CAP19 should be forced out [after a support move] by:
Ferrothorn
Chansey
Phazing Ground types

CAP19 should be checked/countered by:
Non-Phazing Ground types
Fast, Frail Psychic types
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
Closing time.

As I kind of expected, there wasn't very much novel we learned in the department of "what do we want the CAP to be threatened by?" Alexwolf's list was a good one that people seemed to agree on for Pokemon that Gyarados could set up on, so we'll work from that.

alexwolf said:
  • Landorus
  • Keldeo locked into anything except from Hidden Power Electric / Scald
  • Excadrill outside of sand
  • Landorus-T
  • Garchomp
  • Greninja
  • Mega Scizor and regular Scizor
  • Choiced Fire-types (Choice Band Talonflame locked into Flare Blitz, Scarf Heatran, Scarf and Band Victini locked to anything other than Bolt Strike)
  • Hippowdon without phazing
  • Gliscor that lacks Toxic and is not faster than Mega Gyarados + Taunt (EQ + Knock Off SpD Gliscor, SR + Taunt + U-turn Gliscor)
  • Dragon Dance Dragonite
  • Mamoswine
  • Starmie without Thunderbolt
  • Weavile
  • Rhyperior without Toxic / Roar
  • Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar (except from CB Stone Edge, which does over half)
As I said earlier, we need not check every box on this list. However, it'd be nice to check as many of them as possible, to give Gyarados more opportunites to set up. This list is where all of our hard counters should come from.

It's important also to note however, as ginganinja said, that we shouldn't be setup bait for anything which could then use the setup to take on Gyarados. For example, Garchomp is on alexwolf's list, but we shouldn't let it Swords Dance before it attacks CAP19 or else Gyarados cannot set up on it. CAP19 should lose to Garchomp, but be threatening enough to force it to attack right away.

As for what CAP19 should threaten—it should threaten defensive Pokemon and pivots which Gyarados has trouble handling. These include but are not limited to Ferrothorn, Slowbro, physically defensive Amoonguss, Alomomola. If possible, it should also be able to beat Gyarados's more offensive counters such as Thundurus, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Manectric, but these are a secondary priority.
 
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