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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Concept Assessment - Multitype

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Rising_Dusk, Nov 14, 2011.

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  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    The concept for CAP 2, as voted on by the community, is as follows:
    I decided from the past concept assessment thread through much discussion that we would be following the bulky offensive mold for CAP 2. What that entails specifically will be determined in the individual stages down the road. Right now, we are going to discuss something else.

    There have been numerous discussions since the concept poll stages about what might happen if and when Sketch Artist was chosen as the concept. The biggest of these discussions was the plausibility of the ability Multitype for use with the concept. Multitype would have extreme ramifications on the process of the CAP, and as such needs to be discussed now before we delve into stats or typing or other things. It would need to be decided on by the community prior to the advent of the other stages.

    Anyway, Multitype. First, let me say that there is no such thing as polljumping in this thread, since this thread addresses all of the future of the CAP. Don't say ridiculous notions like "If it has Multitype it needs 110 Speed!", as that is still totally disallowed, but discussing the movepool ramifications of something like Multitype is perfectly okay.

    Let me explain why I think Multitype merits serious consideration for CAP 2:
    Multitype enables Judgment as a serious possibility for naturally learned move, giving CAP 2 reliable STAB regardless of the Sketch move.
    This is a valuable asset to CAP 2, and may factor into it adequately being an offensive threat while freeing up Sketch for coverage or support moves.
    The existence of Multitype + Judgment on CAP 2 removes the need for a bunch of coverage moves in the CAP's eventual movepool.
    This is one of the biggest advantages, as it prevents CAP 2 from having unnecessary coverage in its eventual movepool. This will allow us to better focus CAP 2's movepool so that it gets two-move coverage instead of a plethora of things outside of its Sketch move. This is especially important because it means that Multitype actually has one other main benefit: it allows us to better study the effects of Sketch on the CAP because it enables us to better condense the eventual movepool around Sketch.
    Multitype enables the use of even more Sketch moves, as it opens up STAB on an assortment of other moves that might not be useful without it.
    This is the most important part of Multitype, and the primary driver for my considering it at all. Multitype really allows CAP 2 to take advantage of Sketch in an offensive manner and use an assortment of different moves with STAB where desired.

    Hopefully this has given you all somewhere to begin your discussion of Multitype. All of these advantages combine to make Multitype a seriously advantageous proposition. There are some disadvantages too, such as the possibility of too much versatility, but that's why this thread exists. I am not sold one way or the other yet, and if I think it's a good idea after this discussion, at the end of this discussion thread I will be holding a special poll for whether we should pursue Multitype or not. If we pursue Multitype, we will have to adjust the process around it, and if we don't then we will continue as normal. In your discussions here, please try to focus on the concept and not worry too much about the logistics of the resulting process; that's my job to make sure it works. Also note that Multitype doesn't preclude CAP 2 having a not-Normal-type typing. It can still have a unique typing, it would just change when influenced by a plate.

    [​IMG]
    tl;dr: Quack! (Multitype!)
  2. Nimh Vah Reaux

    Nimh Vah Reaux

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    I have some slight concerns with this: Would taking Multitype as CAP 2's ability bar it from being dual-typed later on? If not, how would the assignment of a given plate alter its type? Furthermore, assuming that CAP 2 does get Multitype, would that make Judgment the go-to special attack, superseding all other Sketch options?
  3. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    I'm extremely leery of Multitype. Not only does it essentially mean we're making 17 different Pokémon, it eradicates the possibility of having counters or even checks. What checks Grass CAP2 won't check Fire CAP2 or Ice CAP2. Not only that, but why would it choose a plate other than Draco or maybe Flame (STAB V-Create...)? Why would it choose an item other than a plate?

    Its advantages are there, but the disadvantages are far too numerous to consider it at all. We could do better with Trace or something to that effect.

    My bad, what we want to consider is Color Change. Let me gather my thoughts and get back to this thread.
  4. Baydren

    Baydren

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    I think a Multitype CAP would work well with this concept. Whether it would work too well is another story.

    By which I mean, will Judgment make this Pokemon too powerful? An instant 150 base power move does seem like it could be very overbalancing for the metagame, unless we tailor its stats and potential moves accordingly.

    I feel like if we give this CAP Multitype and Judgment, then we need to suppress its Special Attack and/or Speed, so it can't go in hitting hard. It would definitely allow the Sketch move to reflect just what people would want to achieve with this CAP: Versatility and unpredictability, as well as allowing a bulky offense that wouldn't hit too hard without, say, a Quiver Dance, which I feel would be one of this CAP's go-to sketch moves.

    Also, something a little unrelated, and that's a sprite idea: have this CAP hold a pencil or something Sketch-related, whose colour changes according to the Plate held. Just an idea, feel free to ignore it.
  5. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    It's kind of funny because Multitype arguably contributes to the Theoretical Threat concept as well :D Not that we're focusing on that concept...

    I'm on the fence about this. On one hand, it provides all these advantages that the OP states. On the other hand, it severely limits the other stages, basically forcing us to limit the movepool and stats severely, and taking up an ability slot. I don't see a very large problem whether we use Multitype or the rest of the process to shape most of CAP 2. However, I am concerned that it does provide a hidden factor in team preview that may not be healthy. I also worry about the implications on CAP 2's physical attacking capabilities in comparison to its special attacking capabilities, since the physical side has nothing like Hidden Power or Judgment.

    I know that the criticism I'm about to address hasn't been posted yet, but it may seem to some that Multitype may add a "noise variable" to our Sketch "experiment". However, it can also be argued that NOT having Multitype introduces its own "noise variables" as well.

    Another note: There's no way I'm supporting having the same sprite+palette on every plate forme of a Multitype CAP 2.
  6. Gerard

    Gerard

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    My only concerns are about how to avoid ending with only one or two types being dominant (just like with arceus that only a hanful of types are seen in Ubers), altough this oes makes a huge way into turning it into a little jack of all trades, but how would this affect the power of QD, SS and Tail Glow sets? would the 180 BP attack be too much after one turn of boosting? an is it too powerful for the common walls an regular special counters?, I can see Fighting CAP 2 having little trouble with blissey an tar (maybe even jirachi) so would this be the main type over "less powerful" types like psyquic, poison or grass?

    But I also ask, how does this affect the concept, judgement and multitype have little relation with sketch and while I agree this is what the concept was about, I don't know how it would help the concept, also would this mean he won't get any good coverage moves? because even with two moves most pokes will have a hard time with just two moves
  7. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

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    I'm hesitantly for Multitype.

    I think that Multitype helps the Pokemon by making it more unpredictable, and assuming it gets Judgment like Arceus, provides it with a great STAB move right out of the gate for coverage. However, just like Arceus, Multitype would give CAP2 Draco Meteor. The idea of Judgment, Draco Meteor, and a Move to be Named Later seems to pidgeon-hole CAP2 into a Special orientated role right off the bat--not necessarily it's only set choice, but definitely the most common as I forsee it, barring a highly physical stat spread.

    At first I was a bit worried that Multitype would cause an outbreak of STAB V-create or Sacred Fire, but I don't think many people would waste their Plate on Fire just to do it when they can have, say, Fighting-type Judgment or the like.
  8. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    I think Multitype is going a bit too far. As LouisCyphre mentions, that's 17 types to balance. I feel like it would end up either being overpowered, or underpowered in such a way that only very few specific strategies are viable.

    I'd personally advocate Forecast. Color Change is unreliable.

    There's also that we've seen Multitype in Arceus. We haven't really seen a viable Forecast user, and I feel like that would be more insightful.
  9. WinstonShnozwick

    WinstonShnozwick

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    While it is certainly a "nifty" idea to do this, and sounds quite fun, I have to disagree with it. First off, as addressed, if multitype is used, this would be effectively creating 17 different pokemon, and the concept would become too broad from the original idea. Second, it also would severely limit and centralize the pokemon's moveset. Sketch is a nice thing to have a one off of, but when you factor in multitype + judgement, every concept would start to become the same. You might start seeing Dragon/Fire typed ones everywhere, hold items would essentially become irrelevant due to the need for a plate to justify the ability's usefullness, and the movesets would all become primarily offensive with Judgement/Sub/Filler/Spore/Shell Smash/etc.. All in all, I believe that granting the combo of Multitype + Judgement (or at least even multitype) is just too Godly for a pokemon to have. It takes the concept and very probable movesets that people would run to both extremes, being too broad to have a point and so specific that there would be no creativity and we would be basically tailoring a new offensive hitter. Arceus is the god pokemon for a good reason.

    However, there are plausible and practical benefits to this. It creates a pokemon that team preview has no effect on, allowing you to gain back some form of strategy once again without the opponent seeing your entire play before the battle. Also, it greatly increases variety in terms of movesets for the pokemon, although this will never work out. Weather in BWOU is a fine example. It brings lots of variety in terms of teambuilding to the game, and seems great in concept, but as we have seen it turn out, nearly every team uses weather now and lacks all variety that was possible.

    I heavily argue for Forecast. It would be a beautiful thing to fulfill what castform did not. Honestly though, since everyone carbon copies weather teams in OU, it would be highly useful to give this CAP something to allow it to function in the environment it finds itself in now.
  10. Baydren

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    Could a dual-ability with Multitype be possible, if a little risky/over-versatile? Say, have a "defensive" ability which allows this CAP to fulfil another role, such as, say, Filter? Just an idea, not necessarily a good one.

    Of course, for that you'd need stats reminiscent of Glalie's so it doesn't do a "good enough" job on its own, or doesn't favour one ability over the other.
  11. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Some Advantages of this CAP having multitype:
    -Allows us to focus less on the attacking movepool and more on the defensive/supporting movepool.
    -CAP being more versatile. (This may be a disadvantage for some people.)
    -Possibly goes well with the concept.
    -Allows the pokemon to have some variety in its attacking movepool.


    Some Disadvantages of this CAP having multitype:
    -May be too "game breaking" requiring us to do significant nerfs in the stats/moves department.
    -Possibly only a few types will see use.
    -Lack of a physical attacking movepool meaning special bias.


    I'm honestly not sold on either one, on one hand I like the potential impact multitype would have on this CAP but on the other hand, it seems like it might be over powering, and it seems very probable that only a few types will see use like Arceus in Ubers.
  12. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Just as food for thought, Multitype would pair nicely with an offensive ability such as Sheer Force or Download. Offensive sets would use the latter for a boost on top of assumed STAB moves; while defensive sets use Multitype to take hits from specific threats.

    It would also fit CAP2, if used offensively, into the types Ghost, Electric, and Dragon more likely than not. The first two would likely sketch coverage moves (Aura Sphere or Ice Beam), while I imagine the last one would sketch Quiver Dance in order to become a mono-attacker.

    Hopefully this is more on-track. [​IMG]
  13. Engineer Pikachu

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    I'm not too sure that Multitype is a good idea for CAP2. Like people above me have mentioned, giving CAP2 Multitype essentially means that we are creating 17 Pokemon that are identical bar typing. This unpredictability is a bit overpowering, in my opinion - not knowing what type CAP2 is in addition to having absolutely no clue as to what move it could be packing in its Sketch slot seems quite daunting.

    Giving CAP2 Multitype + Judgement would also be conducive to Draco Meteor. While this doesn't seem too overpowering, a STAB 100 BAP move combined with a Hidden Power of choice, Draco Meteor, and a Sketch slot could easily become an offensive monster. Granted, non-STAB Draco Meteor isn't particular threatening, especially with its -2 SpA drawback, but between STAB plate-boosted Judgement and a Hidden Power for coverage, the offensive coverage part is pretty much settled. What gets me here is the Sketch slot; the sheer unpredictability means that you can't really figure out what move CAP2 is hiding until it uses it.
  14. V0x

    V0x meow or something
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    I don't really like the idea of Multitype. In my eyes, if we use Multitype, we are in a sense making it too easy to create this Pokemon. By too easy I guess I mean scale and cut back in the creation, which is arguably easier to do. I think it would be more fun to flush out the ramifications of Sketch than scale back Multitype so it doesn't get out of control.
  15. I'm actually a very big fan of Multi-Type or something like it. Conceptually, it's very fitting. However, I'm not as big of a fan of giving it Judgement. I think that, if the CAP wants Judgement, then it should have to Sketch for it.

    I definitely agree with this.

    These, however, I disagree with. I think that, if Sketchy wants good coverage moves or STAB moves with the type that it obtains from its plate, then that should be what it uses Sketch for. Seriously, if we're just going to give this Pokemon all of the tools that it needs to do what it does, then what's the point of giving it Sketch? No, it should have to Sketch for Judgement, and it should have to Sketch for more esoteric attacks.

    Fortunately, if we're seriously considering Multi-Type as the CAP's ability, then it seems to follow logically that we might want its default typing to be Normal. Other typing could be possible, of course, and I don't intend to presume much about how Sketchy will end up, but it's just that Normal types generally have pretty wide move-pools by default when it comes to coverage possibilities. The should reduce the need for Sketchy to use Sketch for a decent STAB move, no matter what plate it equips, but it should also make that option fair.

    I just think that giving Judgement to Sketchy by default is taking the easy way out. I feel like the combination of Multi-Type and Judgement would then become Sketchy's major draw instead of Sketch, and that would eclipse the purpose of the CAP.
  16. WinstonShnozwick

    WinstonShnozwick

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    I just had a scary thought. Between balanced/bulky offense stats, a single sketch and multitype (and maybe judgement), we'd be making a mini Arceus demigod pokemon. I very much doubt that OU is the sort of environment for that kind of perfect power to be unleashed in.
  17. Birkal

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    Continuing off of Asylum_Rhapsody's post, I would agree that Multitype without Judgment is a good call. That way, it would have to Sketch for its STAB move if it was hoping to go big. Furthermore, we could discuss the popularity of each Plate-type and work with the movepool consequentially. For example, perhaps we decide that Electric-Sketchmon is terribly outclassed by other typings. Then we could give it a strong Electric-type move, like Thunderbolt, to add to its viability. That could lead to plenty of interesting discussion in terms of movepool as well.
  18. Baydren

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    I think Judgment isn't as overpowered as people are assuming.

    Take Skarmory and Brave Bird, which has 180 BP including STAB coming off 80 Attack. Skarm does a legitimate amount of damage, but I hardly think it's an offensive Pokemon. I am aware it very rarely runs Atk EVs, but even so, this has more power than STAB Judgment.

    It might not be as valid a comparison since Skarm doesn't run offensive EVs and Brave Bird is only one type, but I think the point still stands: 150 base power isn't always a very powerful move.

    Also, if you don't give CAP Judgment as a learned move, then the whole point of Sketch falls apart: versatility. We don't learn anything about Sketch, we just learn about Multitype. Then again, giving this CAP Multitype has that problem as well.

    I'm playing both sides of the fence here because this idea has its advantages, but it could very easily outshine the point of the CAP.
  19. RotationalBasis

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    I would suggest that Mulitype might shoe-horn the CAPmon into an offensive role, as defensive and support Pokemon usually rely on their novel dual-typings to switch in and do their business (see: Ferrothorn, Ludicolo, Foretress, Skarmory). Whilst Multitype's surely be a boon to offensive sweepers, it may well detract from other possible roles. What's more, a 'bulky offensive' Pokemon needs to be able to take hits, and if it doesn't have access to dual stab will be even more tempted to take the Shell Smash route of pure boosting power.

    What I feel is that whilst a 'bulky offensive, Multitype' CAPmon may seem like a good idea, the benefit it bestows on boosting sweepers is greater than the benefit other models (support, wall, revenge killer) reap from it, meaning sweeping sets are unduly favoured. Railroading this CAPmon into specific roles this early is the enemy.
  20. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I would like to make a Multitype CAP eventually, but I don't really think this is the CAP to do it. I would prefer to choose very carefully which range of moves are and aren't optimally abusable by CAP2, and a big part of that is choosing the STABs. As a bulky offense Pokemon, the best way to deal with CAP2 should be to counter it, or at worst to check it. A wall can be switched into somewhat blindly, since you don't risk losing a key Pokemon every time you switch in; when playing against offense, every move is important. CAP2 will automatically be difficult to switch into--it could use any attack in the game. Adding a second level of versatility, the ability to be any type in the game, delivering any attack in the game, totally alters the whole system of counters and checks. In Ubers, accounting for every Arceus is well-nigh impossible, and Arceus has a relatively limited movepool that ensures that every Arceus type does relatively similar things. If CAP2 has Multitype, good luck attempting to build a good team--there will be nearly endless possibilities to account for. I have no idea if any given CAP2 forme would be overpowered or not--and neither does anyone else, really. I DO know that having an offensive Pokemon with BOTH Multitype and its choice of any single move would totally alter the way the metagame is played. I'm not enough of a gambler to want to go forward with Multitype for this concept.
  21. It's not just about it being overpowered, at least not for me, just about it being too easy and obvious. It eliminates to the need for Sketch for a fantastic STAB move regardless of type, and that just defeats the purpose.

    I don't follow. The way that I see it, if we do give Sketchy Judgement, then Sketch loses one of its major values to the CAP, especially considering the Multi-Type ability. No, this can work just fine with Multi-Type, no Judgement outside of Sketch, and a move pool that's wide in terms of type variety but average in terms of power.
  22. Baydren

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    What I had thought was having to Sketch Judgment would take away this CAP's ability to Sketch other moves, which detracts from the point of the CAP.

    What I forgot was Multitype has other reasons for existing, such as allowing other STAB moves that wouldn't have much purpose outside of that type.

    So now I understand where you're coming from, but I will say that not giving it Judgment might accidentally centre this CAP around Sketching Judgment, which is definitely not what we want.

    Edit: giving this CAP Multitype without Judgment might mean that this Pokemon would Sketch more powerful moves for certain types, such as Hydro Pump or Thunder. So even without Judgment, it might not Sketch it in favour of other moves. I feel there's still that risk though, especially for types with less powerful moves such as Steel.
  23. Fire Blast

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    The CAP project is a lot like a simple scientific experiment. We have a question(s), and then make a pokemon to experiment with these new ideas. One very important part of an experiment is the controlled variables. Certain variables need to be constant, so that when we get a result we know for the most part why.

    I really think that instead of helping Sketchmon accomplish the goal, Multitype will become a distraction. It is such a new concept that it could even be its own CAP. By making a pokemon with Multitype, there will be a huge amount of possible sets, and ways in which Sketchmon is used. This will cause the true purpose, Sketch, to become hard to analyze and evaluate because of how much Multitype affects the results.
  24. Baydren

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    This is not something I'd taken into account and now I'm definitely reconsidering supporting Multitype for this CAP. Fire Blast raises an excellent point - Sketch is the point of the CAP, not Multitype or Multitype + Sketch.
  25. Solstice

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    These statements I agree with exactly, Im sure one day CAP will make a Pokemon with Multitype, its an incredible and explorative ability, but I strongly believe now is not the time. Sketch Artist is already a concept that has some very dangerous aspects to it, Multitype adds an additional level of complicity. It would become another thing we need to keep very close attention to create a balanced Pokemon, and it already having any move it wants makes that a challenge. I feel like this is one step to far in CAP 2s creation.
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