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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Concept Assessment

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Rising_Dusk, Nov 13, 2011.

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  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    The concept for CAP 2, as voted on by the community and submitted by the same person who won Tomohawk's concept thread, is as follows:
    This concept, as many have previously surmised, is a mold for us to follow and doesn't really present any fixed Pokemon for us to fashion. I know some of you, judging from your votes in the concept poll, are uneasy with a concept that has as much movepool flexibility as ours, but that is part of the challenge. We need to—knowing that this CAP can have any one of any move in the game—adjust the process to create our CAP successfully. Consequently, we need to address this with the discussion and eventual conclusion of this thread. First, we'll look at the type of questions that determine the direction of CAP 2. We need to decide on a role for the CAP, and address the following questions.

    1. Should CAP 2 be primarily offensive or defensive or supporting?
    2. How do you balance a single of any move in the game on a Pokemon?
    3. What can Smeargle teach us about Sketch that will be relevant to creating CAP 2?
    Recognize that poll-jumping is not tolerated, but that the eventual movepool is such a critical part of the concept that it's almost impossible. We know one crucial part of the CAP, and that is that it learns Sketch once. Knowing this, we need to attempt to design the CAP we decided on above while thinking about the following through the entire rest of the process. Despite that, try not to specifically discuss typing, supplementary movepool, abilities, and the like. Discuss general aspects of the Pokemon.

    I will be frequently poking my head into this thread and reevaluating both the Pokemon's direction and my own opinions based on what you all say. Expect frequent posts from me. Oh, and avoid unnecessary tl;dr! Say what you want to say in such a way that encourages others to actually read it. ;)

    [​IMG]
    tl;dr: Quack! (Assess!)
  2. PokeMasterLM

    PokeMasterLM

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    well I think that because it can learn any move once it can finish any
    type of moveset it wants which means that it could do multiple roles.
    I guess all I could say is this is really challenging. we need to really perfect this
    guy but I think offensive would really be good for him.
  3. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    My initial impression is that we want a Pokemon that leans offensively, but is fairly balanced. Something in the mold of Froslass, where it has enough speed to effectively encourage a move like Spore, but not so much offensive prowess that it could use Shell Smash and immediately start wiping everything out. It really comes down to enabling a decent speed stat with passable offenses to get real flexibility out of Sketch, and for that I think offensive leaning is the best way to go. Smeargle's 75 Speed wasn't a big liability in 4th Gen, but everything has crept up in speed and threat level, leaving Smeargle in the dark.

    There's also the brutal fact that defensive boosters just aren't as good as offensive ones. There's no +2/+2 to both defenses to match Shell Smash, so even if we want to go defensive, the end product might end up like Cloyster, which is ostensibly defensive but acts more like a sweeper. It's safer if we acknowledge at the beginning the biggest boon to exploring Sketch's versatility is to put it on a relatively fast Pokemon that can explore all the options.

    Having experience trying to balance CAP ASB, I can tell you balancing something with a lot of versatility is a very difficult task. You have to isolate what it is you want to achieve and then set up a system to best reach that task. Given our Pokemon can use any single stat booster, attacking move, or status attack in the game, the best course of action is to break towards offensive to maximize the threat both from Spore and from a move like Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, or Shift Gear.
  4. col49

    col49 unpolished
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    I have to disagree, an offensive poke with the capacity to learn a single move would be far too dangerous to not overly disrupt the metagame. An offensive poke of the sort described by the concept would have access to Shell Smash, Gear Shift, Quiver Dance, etc., and the sheer potential of it would be far too dangerous. Smeargle's source of manageability lay in his inability to properly make use of the boosts he accumulated on his own, instead passing these boosts to teammates. And even then, he remained quite dangerous. Should CAP2 be able to make use of these tools on his own, it would be rather overbearing imo. Personally, I feel that a support-oriented design would work best, as it would allow the community to still assess the value of Sketch within limits that restrain to the standards of the metagame. But that's just my two cents.
  5. The Reptile

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    Should CAP 2 be primarily offensive or defensive or supporting?
    I think it should be an unpredictable and versatile jack-of-all-trades pokemon, because of how big it's movepool is. This can be fixed with a good stat distribution and ability options. In example (and I do not think that it should have these abilities, these are just examples of what I mean, since Sheer Force would be overpowered) we could give it mediocre offensive stats, but give it Sheer Force as one of the ability options, allowing it to patch up it's offense and be dangerous. However, it could also have decent HP and have the ability Regenerator. This would let it go the defensive route. There are almost endless possibilities with this mon, and I feel like we could reach this potential by having a versatile pokemon.

    How do you balance a single of any move in the game on a Pokemon?
    By tailoring it's stats to it's purpose without making then overpowered. Speed should be a higher stat on this mon, mainly because it is the most versatile stat in any mon. All of it's other stats (bar HP) should be slightly below or exactly average. It's HP should be slightly above average, so that it can survive to do whatever it needs to do. Another thing is to make sure it's typing doesn't make one aspect of it overpowered or another aspect of it underpowered. Finally, give it a good choice of abilities that allow it to be versatile.

    What can Smeargle teach us about Sketch that will be relevant to creating CAP 2?

    We learned that if the pokemon doesn't have good stats and a useless ability, it's only role is support, in which it is outclassed despite having a large movepool. This shows us that unless we tailor the mon, most of the movepool will go untouched. In fact, I do not think this should be our example, rather, our example should be Mew, a pokemon who learns every TM in the game.
  6. Rising_Dusk

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    Remember that just because the Pokemon will eventually get to choose one of any move in the game for its move sets, it doesn't have to have an extremely large movepool outside of Sketch. I don't want to polljump, but please keep in mind that we can minimize the movepool's eventual size to maximize the relative impact of Sketch on the movepool. This in itself may end up being the key to creating a balanced offensive threat that has a single use of Sketch.
    I like this. I think it would be very useful to look at all of the moves that Sketch allows us and determine a list of the ones we think will most affect any Pokemon able to learn them. Moves like Sacred Fire and Spore and Shell Smash and Belly Drum. If we can form a list of these, we may be better able to quantify just how much each will change the equation and how we should develop CAP 2 in response to them.
  7. ryik7

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    I pick all.
    Why not?

    Offensively, it would probably be absolutely terrible, if it weren't for shell smash or something. Basically, it would have to use it's Sketch to be decent enough for your team, and could either do something like get good coverage with V create (clear body lol) and dragon claw to make up for it's general badness (like a victini) or choose a sweeping option like shell smash and sweep with that, yet still not be epic.

    Defensively, it would be like the opposite of Shuckle. (HAHA several billion references to Shuckle) This pokemon is using it's moves, not stats, so basically it has many options, either doing what sigilyph would do (albeit probably without psycho shift and roost being replaced by recover or no healing at all) and spamming cosmic power and maybe stored power or he could go sporing and see what he can do with that. (U turn anyone? IDK)

    Support wise, a whole world opens up to him. We should start listing what we want that to be, but it would basically be slapping sketch onto someone else's concept ie:

    -psycho. warfare; you know he's gonna screw you up with something, (like spore or will o wisp, or even reliable freezing) you just don't know what

    -wonder room spamming :D (and actually doing it right) throw in party trick and throw a power. (no, I didn't write that wrong)

    -standard ingrain passer or whatever, except upgraded.

    -gimmicks and niches previously unexplored (ie. a perish trapper who can do it right, etc.)

    The question is what is our goal here? an oh so boring sweeper doesn't appeal to me, even it's stalling borders on support; I believe we should reconsider the fact that concepts connot overlap; this is so vague, we might just end up taking another concept and use it to give this concept direction.

    One thing I want to add: I always thought that the CAP process was flawed because we never did things one at a time, so our movepools usually can't abuse our abilities as well as they should; we did everything separate, we choose good types, abilities and moves, but they don't always fit in together, this manifests in various ways, like, IDK, Tomohawk going offensive and destroying things with hurricane or maybe abusing Krillowattacker instead of actually countering things the way he should. How does one remedy this? IDK, we could do an extremely convoluted all-at-once poll that votes upon finished products with different movepool combinations and whatnot, but thats kinda unrealistic isn't it?
  8. jas61292

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    Personally I think the best way to go with this Pokemon would be a to make it fairly fast, but with mediocre stats otherwise. The non-speed stats however do not have to all be the same. I think it is fairly important to have it slightly biased in one direction. While the ability to use all moves is nice, by making it ever so slightly more predictable we can improve its overall power without breaking it. As such, either a physical/special bias or an offensive/defensive bias should be implemented. Since I am fairly sure most people would not want to lean one way or the other on the physical special spectrum, at least on the offensive side, I would suggest making this Pokemon either slightly better offensively (such as Frosslass, as Deck brought up), or lean more defensively (think Serperior, though probably with a lower BST). Personally, I like the latter approach, as it still allows for almost all moves to be viable, but encourages more of a supportive role.
  9. Birkal

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    My original impression is almost the opposite of Deck_Knight, actually. I envision more of a Scrafty build, which would consist of considerable defenses and moderate to sub-par offenses. The only part where I would differ from Scrafty is to give it a bit more speed; perhaps sacrificing a bit of bulk from both defenses could serve that purpose.

    My reasoning is that if CAP2 is going to run a boosting-move, it will almost always be of an offensive variety rather than those that deal with increased defenses. By giving it some bulk, it will have the capacity to have a bit of time to set up and then retaliate, as opposed to simply getting plowed over by some of the offensive heavy-weights in BW OU (think increased viability for Bulk Up or Recover as a Sketch move). The extra bit of speed would allow it to devastate some slower offensive threats while making still viable as a Speed-booster.

    However, my opinion certainly doesn't mean that I'm asking for a defensive Pokemon; in my example, Scrafty is hardly used defensively. I'm thinking of a more bulky offensive Sketchmon than anything else. Something that can take neutral (and even some super-effective) hits, threaten with whatever its Sketch move is, and then prepare to go to town on the opposing team. This would allow for a greater variety in moves; we wouldn't be limiting our Sketchmon to quick and offensive boosters like Shell Smash that require immediate action to prevent death from its frail defenses. It would also allow CAP2 to deal with priority-type moves adequately.

    Again, I very excited for this project! We will have to work very hard at making a balanced product that is still viable in today's metagame. Keep the thoughts coming =D!
  10. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    For those claiming that this concept is lacking in direction, I intend to demonstrate otherwise. Consider the following.

    With every single move in Pokemon available, we have the ability to slant this CAP to favor pretty much any move we want. People have been saying "oh, this CAP will just take Spore every time". The thing is, Spore is not the best move for every Pokemon. If Skarmory had Spore, it would never use it, since its movepool issues are already pretty tough. In other words, in order for something like Spore to make sense, a Pokemon needs to have the right stats, type and especially movepool to make use of it. If a Pokemon needs all four of its moveslots to be effective, it won't have room for a luxury move like Spore.
    More to the point, which moves will be desirable will be shaped enormously by what role(s) we want CAP2 to fulfill. Sacred Fire may be the best direct attack in Pokemon (50% burn, strong base power and type), but it will never be used if CAP2 has miniscule Attack and strong Special Attack, or if Fire presents no coverage for what CAP2's STAB is. On the other hand, giving it strong offensive stats will almost certainly press CAP2 into taking very strong attacks like Sacred Fire, or even more likely stat-up moves like Quiver Dance or Shift Gear. If CAP2 receives more defensive typing, stats, etc. it will almost certainly spend its Sketch on recovery moves, status attacks like Glare, or entry hazards (or even Rapid Spin!). In other words, there is no single "best" move for CAP2 to take, unless we decide that there should be based on the role we want CAP2 to play. In my opinion, the spirit of the concept suggests that we should choose a role for CAP2 that will not make any single Sketch choice optimal--one that leaves the player with a number of excellent options. I believe that this strongly suggests that creating an obvious sweeper is the not the best application of this concept. In fact, every single stage in this CAP's process carries heavy weight--the typing will determine CAP2's STABs and offensive and defensive viability, the stats will determine what moves are even remotely usable on CAP2, the movepool will determine what CAP2 will need for coverage, the ability will strongly suggest certain moves over others (No Guard Dynamicpunch or Zap Cannon are better than Sacred Fire, etc.). Every aspect of this CAP has meaning, and some will likely have implications that we won't notice at the time. In other words, this concept has intense direction. Whatever we want this CAP to be, we will need to think very, very carefully at each stage about how we intend to get it there.
  11. Erick

    Erick

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    I'd prefer offensive or defensive over supportive. Smeargle was already a supportive Pokemon since its terrible bulk and attacking stats prevented it from doing anything else. If we make something with support in mind, it will probably end up with access to a lot of moves Smeargle commonly uses without even taking Sketch into account. It wouldn't be Smeargle Mark 2, since it can only learn Sketch once, but it'd be pretty close. If we tailor a Pokemon for a different role, like a sweeper or a wall, we can find new ways a Pokemon can take advantage of Sketch in that fourth moveslot.

    As for balance, we could give it mediocre stats, but I think the movepool besides Sketch is the most important part. We should be aware of any potentially overwhelming combinations. It can learn any one move in the game, but one move on its own is far from game breaking. With that in mind, when we get to the movepool, we might want to make it a little restrictive.
  12. ryik7

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    *clap clap clap*

    So basically, pivotal and diverse, able to take on several different roles, only good offensively for what it does and only good defensively for what it wants to do, support lets it be the most diverse and the ability and typing AND normal movepool supports it so that it is obligated to use diversity to do it's job right. It is a jack of all trades but only one at a time; it isn't the master other than the opportunity it's unpredictability brings allowing it to get going (ie zoroark). It's support allows for my concept, psychological warfare, theoretical threat, and many others to be carried out (more or less) and is even more bipolar than zoroark disguised as a ditto disguised as a shedinja. Brilliant.

    Oh, and if you want a special attacking burning superior version of sacred fire that is only viable with no guard, that'd be Inferno.
  13. Rising_Dusk

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    This. This is exactly what I like to see. Having followed this thread's initial discussion, I definitely agree with reach here about how we want to explore Sketch and give CAP 2 the encouragement to use lots of different options. reach's points are killer good, and we should definitely take them to heart, especially these:
    I hate to quote an entire paragraph of his text, but it is so crucial that everyone is on the same page here. The weight of our decisions present here is nearly overwhelming, and we'll have to carefully decide every step. That's why I want us to really think carefully here. Comparisons to other Pokemon, like Birkal's note about Scrafty, are really solid. They help us compare a potential CAP 2 to something we already understand, which lets us make better decisions in the development process. I think Scrafty is actually a much better example of a comparison than Deck's Froslass suggestion. I think so because Scrafty is bulky enough to support if it had the moves, it's offensive enough to hurt with a boost, and it's just fast enough to appreciate +1 Speed from things like Dragon Dance or Quiver Dance. Scrafty's mold has a lot of room for options with access to Sketch.

    More! I want to hear more!
  14. smashlloyd20

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    Hi.

    Elaborating on what reach said, some boosting moves generally outclass others. For instance, no Pokemon with Shift Gear would ever use Autotomize. No Pokemon with Bulk Up ever runs Curse. I think Sketchmon should try to avoid these molds so it doesn't fall into the category of 'if it's heavily offensive, we should always use Shell Smash'. If, for instance, CAP2 wants to run a bulky boosting set, there should be multiple ways to go about it. Perhaps it could utilize Cosmic Power for fun with Stored Power. Maybe Bulk Up for physical fun. Shift Gear for Speed and Attack. Curse to use Gyro Ball or Payback. I'm not trying to polljump here, just stating multiple ways in which Sketchmon could reach one goal.

    We should try to avoid any one move being completely outclassed by another. Even if we know what direction we want to go in, there should be multiple ways to get there.
  15. Deck Knight

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    It is possible to be defensive leaning with a good speed stat, but I'm trying to think of balance here. I'm not going for "obvious sweeper" so much as "fast enough to pull value out of many more moves than it otherwise would." What I want is a Pokemon who can pull the full benefit out of every aspect of Sketch. The thing is, most of the moves you would want to use with Sketch are better on faster Pokemon, here are a few examples:

    Spore: Fast Spore is desirable for obvious reasons. Sleeping an opponent before they move prevents damage, and allows you to attack first the next action anyway, where they either switch or cannot do anything.

    Taunt: Here again, Taunting a foe quickly can be very valuable if you can hit them before they set up hazards.

    Light Screen/Reflect: Setting up a screen is good for supporting your teammates, and its made better if you can weaken an incoming attack.

    Rapid Spin: Getting a Rapid Spin off before the Pokemon is KO'd can also be critical, and can't happen if your spinner is too slow to pull it off.

    Me First: This one's a pretty nice surprise all its own, and it's also speed dependent. It's quite a nasty way to get the drop on an Outraging foe.

    Sucker Punch: Higher speed lets you beat the other priority moves in the same bracket. About the only one you can't beat is Extremespeed, in which case you can easily put ES itself here. As long as you beat Dragonite with your own ES, thats all that matters.

    Remember, we only get one of these moves. So while its cool that a Scrafty-like Pokemon could use Shell Smash, Shift Gear or Quiver Dance, it does this to the exclusion of other potential Sketch Moves. Having it more offensive off the bat (or even fast, but slightly defensive biased like Serperior) unlocks a great many more alternative uses.

    Going slower and more defensive limits a lot of these attacks and is almost sure to result in a Pokemon heavily weighted towards Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, or Shift Gear. A Serperior style mold could also work for the CAP (Serperior is slightly defensive in ODB), but the endgame here is we need to allow moves that benefit from higher speed a chance to take flight.
  16. Rising_Dusk

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    While I appreciate light discussion of stats, asking for it to be "fast enough to pull off certain moves" is a bit of a polljump. Let's save that for stats discussion, and keep this about role. What about those moves you mention Deck is necessary for us to succeed? Are you suggesting an offensive threat that can disable opponents, defensive and team-supporting? That's what I want to see.
  17. If I understand correctly and what we're trying to do with this concept is to see how having one surprise trick can affect the way that a Pokemon is played and reacted to, then I think that limiting its focus to any of these three is going to in turn limit how it's going to be able to be used. My vote would be towards making the creature as basically generalist as possible, with its ability to specialized being partially determined by what it selects as its Sketch move instead of the other way around.

    My general thought is to make sure that it has a very limited move-pool otherwise, and that goes for any roll that this Pokemon may try to fulfill. If we want it to be more offensively oriented, then maybe it should get very poor coverage and/or poor STAB and be forced to use its Sketch move for better coverage. If we want it to be more defensively oriented, then its move list shouldn't already contain things like Leech Seed, Substitute, Toxic, etc., or at least not more than one of them. If we want it to be more of a support member, then it shouldn't get Baton Pass naturally. Basically, we want using Sketch to be necessary for it to be great at any of these roles. If it gets all of the tools that it needs to do what it does from its move list anyway, then what's the point of giving it Sketch?

    In my mind, the same thing Whimsicott taught us about Prankster. Getting a lot of options is great, but in the end, there are only going to be a few things that you actually end up doing with them. If everybody's just going to end up using Sketch for Spore, then what's the point? The best way to make sure that Sketch really gets used to its full potential is to make sure that the Pokemon's other features set it up to be able to fulfill a number of different roles.
  18. DTC

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    If we want to make the most out of seeing how a choice of any move in the game in one moveslot effects the Pokemon with that ability, I think making a Pokemon that relies on the sketch move to mold the rest of its set would be the best bet. It could have a bunch of pretty good moves that need one move to mold them together, and then make the set. It might be preferable if there are a bunch of different cases of this so you just don't see the same 1/2 sets all the time. I wish I could expand on this thought, but I'd like more input on this idea.

    About the offense/defense balance, making the Pokemon have a decent attacking prowess where it hurts after a boost or two; having considerable bulk; and having a fairly wide variety of supporting moves might be the best way to do this. Keep in mind the Pokemon will have a few very good boosting moves thanks to its move Sketch so giving it a high attack might not be the best idea, perhaps it should have a decent attack stat and have good coverage that is walled by a few things, but not a lot. I think it'd be more interesting if the Pokemon could run a variety of different roles fairly well and each of them have its own niche values that are useful. A jack of all trades, as a few people have already said.
  19. Deck Knight

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    But what it can do is critical to the role, and the role needs to have the flexibility to allow this. The reason I bring it up is because Speed is factored into offense. Scrafty is moderately biased towards defense, but I feel like having a build that defensive holds back the ability to truly test out what Sketch Artist can do. I'm not discussing specific speeds here, but rather pointing out the role here should be, at its lowest extent, only slightly biased towards defense in order to pull every last drop of potential out of Sketch. Gliscor is a good example, but it also runs into a moderately defensive bias, and to be clear, 95 Speed isn't really sufficient for what I think we need.

    So really the role I'm aiming for here is "balanced" but that isn't really a good descriptor. Basically I don't want us to forget that if we choose a defensive roll we will severely curtail Sketch's ability to be unpredictable. It's cool to talk about how fun spamming Sacred Fire would be on a defensive Pokemon and inflicting burns half the time, but we could get burn through Will-O-Wisp as well, or use Scald or Lava Plume, or even something like Blue Fire or Searing Shot.

    Support is a non-starter, since support often needs multiple moves to set up (Screens + Hazards, Hazards + Phaze, Taunt + Screens) and Sketch in the movepool is going to influence those decisions.
  20. The Reptile

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    I would also like to point out how important the ability for the role of the CAP is (of course, without actually discussing what the ability in question should be. First we need to get a direction with this CAP, as the actual concept of Sketch had no direction by itself, and thus the point of this CAP round, to flow the concept in a certain direction). The ability heavily impacts what the pokemon can and can't do. Using Scrafty as an example, the reason he works so well is because of his ability options. He can use Rest + Shed Skin and use it semi-reliable while also not giving a damn about status. He can use Moxie to snowball a sweep. He can (when it get's released) use Intimidate to set up with ease. It can also give the mon a certain niche. In this example, I use Jirachi. With it's ability Serene Grace and moves like Iron Head, it can be a bit annoying. In fact, it can be considered one of the most annoying pokemon, as it can Iron Head at a paralyzed target to chip it down until it dies. It would never achieve that status solely with movepool/stat combo. This CAP could pull of 2 different rolls depending on it's ability. For example, we could give it Intimidate and Regenerator. With the Intimidate CAP, it can come in on something physical and set up, thus making it a set-up sweeper, while the Regenerator CAP increases it's longevity. thus possibly making it a support mon.

    Typing is also important to the CAP's role. It's simple, really. Certain types can't do things regardless of stats and do other things that other types can't. For example, Dragon-type is the only type that cannot be dual-resisted. It is also the only type that can inflict at most only a x2 super effective, and that is against Dragon-type. The rest hits neutral. Another example is the Ghost-type. It is the only type that can Spin Block efficiently. It also affects how good at what role the mon will be. I want to keep this one short, as this one will indefinably end up with me getting to ahead of myself. However, a pokemons type changes the role of it.

    Now, what's the point of this post? Simple, it is so we can also think about ability and typing as well as stats when thinking about the CAPs balance and direction. As in, we can weaken the mon by giving it a specific type/ability combo that is bad for a certain role. I already stated what I think the CAP should be, but IMO, reach put what I was actually thinking in better words (A versatile mon).

    Also, if I'm going to fast for the CAP (like thinking more about it's stats, ability, ect.), then forgive me, as it was unintentional.
  21. RotationalBasis

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    I suppose a crucial part of the project, then, will be to pick typing, abilities and stats that don't railroad the CAP into particular moulds or roles. As such, we should be aiming to avoid overly offensive or defensive types and stat distributions that would encourage one specific role (eg. special sweeper, physical wall) at the expense of other options - at best it makes the pokemon boring and predictable, and at worst unbalanced and overpowered. Too frail, on the other-hand, and there is little reason to choose this pokemon over Smeargle itself, which I think would be even more of a failure than if we went too far.

    It's worth noting that unlike Smeargle, the source of this pokemon's unpredictability would lie in one move, meaning that once that move is used the set becomes very transparent. For example, as soon as you see Shell Smash, you know exactly which moves the rest of this pokemon's moveset is limited to. Likewise, if you see Spore, you know which move occupies sketch, and the rest of the pokemon's recovery and support moves become fairly easy to guess. In other words this pokemon will not be able to so everything, but there will be a fair few things it can do well enough to find a place on many teams and be a source of unpredictability until it does its thing.
  22. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I think this is almost exactly the wrong kind of statement to make this early in the process. We don't know yet what kind of moves precisely we will want to use with Sketch. Yes, certain moves are much better if CAP2 is very fast. But are these really better options overall than the moves that are better if CAP2 is slow, but very bulky? We cannot automatically assume that. Each build will have its own advantages and limitations. That being said, of the moves you mentioned, the only two I see as good enough to really be seriously considered for Sketch are Spore and Rapid Spin. Even so, it is very debatable whether Rapid Spin is better on a fast Pokemon as opposed to a slow one, seeing as a Pokemon with Rapid Spin is one you generally do NOT want to die.

    To address ryik7's suggestion that CAP2 be "pivotal and diverse, able to take on several different roles", I don't know that I am suggesting that at all. I think we should (and more to the point, will) end up pinning CAP2 down to a relatively limited range of roles. I'm not convinced that Mew is a good model for CAP2, since that could easily tip CAP2 from "strong and versatile in one role" into "strong and so versatile you don't have the slightest idea what it intends at all when it switches in". That, in my opinion, would be overpowered. I think we should choose a basic range of roles for CAP2, but choose this range carefully so as not to make any 2-3 move choices optimal.

    To illustrate what I mean, suppose we decide to make CAP2 a bulky offense Pokemon, in the mold of Scrafty. You know that it might Shell Smash, or Coil, or Shift Gear, or it might go the opposite direction and use Glare; this is a wide range of options. At the same time, you are not worried that it will wall two-thirds of your team without giving up a very significant portion of its offensive capacity.

    Alternatively, suppose we decide to make CAP2 a wall with almost no offensive capacity. CAP2 might then take any of a gamut of status attacks, or entry hazards, or Rapid Spin. If CAP2 lacks reliable recovery, it might take a recovery move. In fact, it might even take an offensive move good enough to allow it to get away with using only one direct attack. This would be significant versatility in terms of Sketch. However, you would not be under the pressure of knowing that you could be swept or stalled out by CAP2 every time it switched it.

    All of this to say, being able to fulfill too many roles would make CAP2 too unpredictable. We want it to be somewhat unpredictable, but within limits that makes it actually possible to deal with.
  23. But isn't the opposite also true? An offensive Pokemon will have no incentive to use a lot of the tricks that Sketch would otherwise be able to help it pull off, and that's going to stop it from being very unpredictable as well.

    What this means to you may be different, but to me, I have trouble envisioning an offensive version of this Pokemon that would be as unpredictable as a defensive version. I would still rather the Pokemon be able to pull off both roles effectively, so I'm all for the "balanced" version, but if a conflict of interests comes up, then I would prefer to err on the side of defense.
  24. Paradox

    Paradox

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    As reach said, avoiding a single move usually being chosen should be a big focus for this stage. I'd agree that the concept should be as versatile in its use of Sketch as possible. For that purpose I think it would be useful to make a fairly comprehensive list of those killer moves that are highly likely to get Sketched. Stuff with amazing utility, great set-up, or awesome power/coverage. I don't really have the time to make a full list now, but I'd start with stuff like:
    Spore, Glare, WoW, Rapid Spin, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Healing Wish, U-turn for good Utility moves.
    Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, Shift Gear for boosting.
    Sacred Fire, Reshiram/Zekrom's sig moves, V-Create, Extremespeed, HJK, Eruption/Water Spout, Volt Tackle, and a ton more.

    I'd love to see a nice list of moves like these (in hide tags please). This will let us have a good look at what are likely to be big factors in all of the later stages of the process. (If this is poll jumping for move pool let me know –*but obviously what moves will be sketched should be discussed as early as possible). Obviously there are a ton of "strong" moves so those should have lower priority than the set-up and utility ones imo (just stuff like Sacred Fire is pretty significant regardless).
  25. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    I disagree, since we are not doing this in a vacuum. The best thing at this point is to give the CAP as much foresight as possible.

    I'll try a different tack. Sketch gives us any single move we desire. The question then logically becomes, what are those moves that are so powerful they define a Pokemon in and of themselves? Given what we know about 5th Gen, the answers are readily apparent, and I've already listed several of them.

    What I want to avoid is having a "default move" for CAP 2. If we go down the path of of a slower, bulky attacker, I can assure you right now that Shell Smash will emerge as the sole default move, because Shell Smash is that game-defining. There is absolutely nothing the Pokemon loses if it can take a hit at its current defense level and then next turn have double its attack, double its special attack, and now be faster than a threat. Cloyster already embodies this strategy, and while I know Movepool is a long way away, having Shell Smash as the default move in a player's mind makes any and all arguments for coverage moves that much more difficult.

    If in contrast the Pokemon is more offensive, the speed boost from Shell Smash matters a great deal less numerically (less threats outsped after boost as compared to before), and more importantly, it becomes riskier to use because the Pokemon will be taking damage from a mediocre and weakened defense.

    As far as Rapid Spin, the three most common spinners before Excadrill's ban were Excadrill, Starmie, and Forretress. Excadrill's ability to remain an offensive threat while spinning was what made it such an excellent candidate, and we all know how Starmie works, it's been doing it since Gen 2.

    It is true we don't have anything defined yet for CAP 2, but we know just based on the existence of Sketch what our Pokemon will do. My goal in this Concept Assessment is to make clear that based solely on the information we have now, it is in our best interested to identify those strategies most likely to be employed based on the usage of a single move. Most defensive strategies rely on more than one move to work. It's usually a combination of a hazard, a phazing move, and reliable recovery, with a good defensive Pokemon possessing two of the three generally. Given we know CAP 2 will have a single move of its choosing, it is more prudent to ask "if I could choose only one move given a certain role direction, which would I choose."

    For Bulky Attackers, that answer is almost always going to be Shell Smash. Addendum: An Escavalier style route (where a Pokemon is so slow that even the +2 from Shell Smash is pointless for the cost in defenses) will probably end up defaulting to something like Shift Gear, Quiver Dance, or Coil. Which would be more varied, but the Speed problems would present a much larger challenge at that point. Again, we're dealing with a single move here, so we really need to focus on moves that define the Pokemon that have them.
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