I guess Spikes/Toxic Spikes would be good, since real Smeargle uses them often... Spikes are easier to get in Gen V with Ferrothorn, but its still a decent option.
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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
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You basically listed reasons for why bulky offense is the (arguably) the best set for CAP2 to have. With choosing a concept of Sketch Artist, we as a community are basically asking for all three of the roles Dusk inquired about to be fulfilled and explored. I'll try not to poll jump with this post, but I'd like to make some comparisons to other Pokemon in the 5th Generation metagame that advocate for why bulky offense can suit a variety of roles (namely Supportive, Offensive, and Defensive).
Offensive
I provided the example of Scrafty on the first page of this topic, and that opinion still stands. Scrafty's speed doesn't allow it to outright sweep, yet it can boost it enough to pose a threat. It's bulk allows it to take a few hits while setting up for a sweep. CAP2 could explore a similar variety of set-up boosters. Furthermore, it would discourage Shell Smash, because with the drop in precious defensive stats, it could easily be taken out with priority.
On the other end of the offensive spectrum that I'd like to introduce is Rotom-W. Again, its speed is comparable to Scrafty's: slow, but still usable. Where Rotom-W differs is its access to fantastic STAB moves like Hydro Pump and Thunder. Furthermore, its considerable bulk allows it to provide support with moves like Will-O-Wisp and Trick. What CAP2 can learn from Rotom-W is that access to a ridiculously strong Base Power move (perhaps even STAB'd) is beneficial as well, which would further increase the range of moves utilized by Sketch.
Defensive
Hmm, defense certainly isn't as viable in OU anymore, in my opinion. The easiest comparison that comes to mind is Bronzong, who is capable of taking many hits thanks to its key resistances and immunities. Like many bulky offensive Pokemon, Bronzong also has usable defensive stats that allow it to take hits, even with a lack of stable recovery. CAP2 with the goal of bulky offense could take advantage of its bulk to wall certain portions of the metagame. Heatran is also a key defensive Pokemon that has naturally great defenses. CAP2 with a bulky mindset would be able to utilize its defenses with moves like Recover or even Aqua Ring + Protect. Also, what makes many defensive Pokemon shine in today's metagame is their great movepools: Heatran gets plenty of toys, Blissey can pass gigantic Wishes, and Vaporeon gets Rest + Hydration. Perhaps if we want to make defensive strategies more viable on CAP2, we'll have to rely on movepool more than stats to accomplish that goal.
Supportive
A bulky offensive Sketchmon could utilize support as well. Plausible defenses would allow it to take a variety of neutral hits while providing support with Spikes, Spore, or what have yee. Furthermore, a moderate amount of speed could help it put an end to slower defensive/support Pokemon. Gliscor and Deoxys-D come to mind for me personally. With their modest 95 base attack and workable defenses, they're able to break support while providing their own (one less so than the other). Considerable bulk would allow CAP2 to also set up multiple layers of hazards; think Ferrothorn but with (probably) less resistances. Like my defensive reasoning above, movepool other than Sketch will also play a large role in how well this Pokemon can perform defensively.
So in conclusion, I would like to say that bulky offense would allow CAP2 to host a variety of roles for CAP2 to fill. I think most everyone agrees that they want Sketch to have as wide a range of a viable movepool as possible (who wants Shell Smash and Spore to be the only moves used). I'm here to debate that bulky offense would allow us to tap into the potential to the greatest degree. I hope I didn't poll jump too much with this post, but I wanted to make some comparisons that don't seem to clicking within this discussion. By choosing a concept with Sketch, we are basically asking for a Pokemon that can fill all kinds of roles, from sweeping potential to supporting skill. Bulky offense would allow us to explore all of those roles significantly. Thanks for reading =D!
I think what moves it will use will be largely dictated by what we give it in the other stages. If it has a gargantuan HP stat, it very well may use wish. If it already has an adequate fire move, it probably won't use V-Create or Sacred Fire, it may use Draco Meteor instead. I think pretty much all supporting options, all set-up moves that boost 3 total stages, and all moves above 100 BP, and a few other odds and ends such as recovery, are at least theoretically possible, depending on its outside movepool and stat distribution.
There are three main points that we need to initially consider for this Pokemon's concept and how they will interact with Sketch. 1) Its Speed, 2) Its offensive prowess, and 3) Its bulk. Stats will play a major part in how CAP2 goes about its concept, far more than it would the average CAP. Sketch will have a tremendous impact on how this Pokemon will be played, and without a proper consideration of stat possibilities before considering what role we seek to accomplish I feel that this CAP could go in a wrong direction.
1) Speed will arguably play the most important role in this. It will determine what opportunities CAP2 will have to use so-and-so move, what stat-up moves are viable for it to use, and much more. The faster we make this Pokemon, the more it will be necessary to restrict its other stats and movepool.
2) Give it too much offense, and it becomes too much of a menacing threat. We must keep in mind the existence of stat-up moves other than Shell Smash, primarily Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Shift Gear, Dragon Dance, etc. But give it too little offense, and due to the limits of a single Sketch we find ourselves with a Pokemon underwhelming both offensively and in a supporting role. There are also some very powerful attacks out there, most notable being Sacred Fire imo. We need to keep such moves in mind when deciding the typing and what the offensive stats will look like.
3) Its bulk. How bulky this Pokemon is would depend on what we want to give it outside of Sketch, but unlike Smeargle this Pokemon will not be able to make too much use of bulk outside of stat-up moves and Spikes.
I think our main goal should be to explore the versatility of Sketch, and for that reason I think that we should seek to create a Pokemon akin to, but noticably weaker and less bulky than, the all-Base 100 pixies. Jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Usable but not excessive stats would allow it to perform nearly any role assigned to it, while ideally not breaking it, something I don't think that a more offensive or support-oriented concept could achieve.
1) Speed will arguably play the most important role in this. It will determine what opportunities CAP2 will have to use so-and-so move, what stat-up moves are viable for it to use, and much more. The faster we make this Pokemon, the more it will be necessary to restrict its other stats and movepool.
2) Give it too much offense, and it becomes too much of a menacing threat. We must keep in mind the existence of stat-up moves other than Shell Smash, primarily Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Shift Gear, Dragon Dance, etc. But give it too little offense, and due to the limits of a single Sketch we find ourselves with a Pokemon underwhelming both offensively and in a supporting role. There are also some very powerful attacks out there, most notable being Sacred Fire imo. We need to keep such moves in mind when deciding the typing and what the offensive stats will look like.
3) Its bulk. How bulky this Pokemon is would depend on what we want to give it outside of Sketch, but unlike Smeargle this Pokemon will not be able to make too much use of bulk outside of stat-up moves and Spikes.
I think our main goal should be to explore the versatility of Sketch, and for that reason I think that we should seek to create a Pokemon akin to, but noticably weaker and less bulky than, the all-Base 100 pixies. Jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Usable but not excessive stats would allow it to perform nearly any role assigned to it, while ideally not breaking it, something I don't think that a more offensive or support-oriented concept could achieve.
This CAP by itself got me hooked into this metagame by itself. Sounds SO much fun! As for the roles this mon can play, I think it's pretty difficult to state something without knowing base stats and typing. For all we know, it could end up being an offensive Shell Smasher, a supportive Baton Passer, Scarf revenge killer with virtually flawless coverage, fire-type with V-create, etc.
Anyway, agreed with the idea of making it a jack of all trades, master of none. ^
edit: after thinking about it, a type that can go either defensive or offensive with Glalie-ish stats (90/90/90/90/90/80) could work. Perhaps something like a water/flying mon.
Anyway, agreed with the idea of making it a jack of all trades, master of none. ^
edit: after thinking about it, a type that can go either defensive or offensive with Glalie-ish stats (90/90/90/90/90/80) could work. Perhaps something like a water/flying mon.
first of all, i believe that one of the cores ideas in this CaP is a study of versatility, so i think the stats/type/movepool need to keep this in mind.
Not to polljump, but secondly, i think there are 2 key moves that will make a huge difference in its roles if it can obtain them without the use of sketch.
1. Baton pass - If this pokemon got baton pass, this would shape its options, and direct it towards passing a lot, if it were to get baton pass, it would need stats designed to prevent Baton pass sets from being absurdly common.
2. Substitute - If the pokemon learned substitute, i believe spore would be common, as it allows it to get essentially a free sub up. If it were to get this move, it would need adjustment to maintain versatility and not just going into default spore.
Ignoring those moves, i believe the stats needed to maintain versatility would not be particularly quick, as previous posts have suggested, as a faster pokemon has even more ability to threaten opponents with spore, and i would worry about spore becoming a default move. That being said, it should not be so slow that it can not have the potential to sweep after a shell smash or shift gear, as the lack of sweeping ability removes versatility.
Also, its attacking stats would need to be reasonable, but not amazing, so that it could have the potential to sweep unprepared teams, without becoming broken.
As to its defenses: for it to maintain versatility, it would need the defenses to pull of stalling and support roles. Also, as it doesn't seem that one move could make a stally or support pokemon overpowered, i would support its defenses being fairly good, with the main limit on them being to keep its defenses from making it too powerful of a sweeper.
On what we can learn from smeargle: smeargle shows very clearly that movepool and great setup moves don't make a sweeper unless it has decent stats, as i have suggested. Smeargle also shows that support roles do NOT neccessarily need good stats, and so while considering this pokemon, we need to remember that in some ways, support is the easiest role for it to snap into by default.
Sorry if i polljumped, i tried not to but it is hard to properly address this concept without some thought as to movepool and stats.
Not to polljump, but secondly, i think there are 2 key moves that will make a huge difference in its roles if it can obtain them without the use of sketch.
1. Baton pass - If this pokemon got baton pass, this would shape its options, and direct it towards passing a lot, if it were to get baton pass, it would need stats designed to prevent Baton pass sets from being absurdly common.
2. Substitute - If the pokemon learned substitute, i believe spore would be common, as it allows it to get essentially a free sub up. If it were to get this move, it would need adjustment to maintain versatility and not just going into default spore.
Ignoring those moves, i believe the stats needed to maintain versatility would not be particularly quick, as previous posts have suggested, as a faster pokemon has even more ability to threaten opponents with spore, and i would worry about spore becoming a default move. That being said, it should not be so slow that it can not have the potential to sweep after a shell smash or shift gear, as the lack of sweeping ability removes versatility.
Also, its attacking stats would need to be reasonable, but not amazing, so that it could have the potential to sweep unprepared teams, without becoming broken.
As to its defenses: for it to maintain versatility, it would need the defenses to pull of stalling and support roles. Also, as it doesn't seem that one move could make a stally or support pokemon overpowered, i would support its defenses being fairly good, with the main limit on them being to keep its defenses from making it too powerful of a sweeper.
On what we can learn from smeargle: smeargle shows very clearly that movepool and great setup moves don't make a sweeper unless it has decent stats, as i have suggested. Smeargle also shows that support roles do NOT neccessarily need good stats, and so while considering this pokemon, we need to remember that in some ways, support is the easiest role for it to snap into by default.
Sorry if i polljumped, i tried not to but it is hard to properly address this concept without some thought as to movepool and stats.
The concept is an exploration of Pokemon, movepools, and Sketch in itself. What we get out of it with respect to the metagame is more how the metagame reacts to this Pokemon, and will come regardless of what we do.
There has been a lot of back and forth and general lack of understanding of both the concept and why I'm asking the questions that I am. I recognize better than anyone that yes, stats, abilities, and typing will play a huge part in both the concept's success as well as how it operates. We get it, we really do, but that's not what we're talking about. We will have discussion threads for all of the other stages of the CAP, don't worry. We should not be developing plans for stats or abilities or typing now! It's all important, yes, but we'll get to those things when we get there. As for now, we need to decide how CAP 2 should operate so down the road we can choose stats, abilities, and typing to match them.
So far, there's been a lot of agreement with bulky offense, but there's also been a lot of rambling about other topics. I'll address a few recurring concerns here with bulky offense so that you better understand why I support it. While I agree that the threat of Shell Smash is huge for something with sufficient bulk and even mediocre defense, there is far more than that going on with a successful Shell Smasher. Cloyster as an example may have that mold, but it has a 125 Base Attack Power Icicle Spear, a 125 Base Attack Power Rock Blast, and STAB Water-type coverage to boot. CAP 2 likely won't have those things going for it to make it such a dominating Shell Smashing threat. Shell Smash alone is not cause for worry or terror, and it should not be treated as such. There are, as others have mentioned, better moves for other situations. The same applies for Spore. Spore is a luxury move if you have space on your moveset. Just being able to put a Pokemon to sleep is insufficient if you're simultaneously incapable of actually taking advantage of the sleeping Pokemon and free turns. Furthermore, because of sleep clause, Spore becomes dead weight if the opponent just leaves one of their Pokemon sleeping from your Spore. Spore will not be a concern unless we give CAP 2 ways independent of Sketch to take advantage of those turns. We can do that if we want to, but we won't be discussing it here. We will be discussing it down the road at the movepool discussion stage.
I still favor the bulky offense mold, and it appears that there's not many others that really don't agree with it (who are making serious cases, anyway). There were some posts for true defense, but I'm still convinced that it will end up limiting our options too much with Sketch. Sketch enables access to a plethora of coverage moves and setup moves, and I think exploring how the various boosting moves will see use will be good for the concept. I also don't think that being offensive precludes people using Sketch for moves like Spikes or Toxic Spikes if their team calls for it. If the Pokemon is sufficiently bulky and at least competent offensively, people may forgo boosting moves to have an offensive and synergistic Pokemon able to support the rest of their offensive team. I know for sure that on some of my teams it's tough to fit in SR or Spikes, although I really want them, and I usually have to sacrifice a really good team player for it. If CAP 2 can do it while still being a solid team player, that's all the better for the concept and what we get out of it.
I'll leave this segment of the discussion open for at least 24 hours before moving to the next point. I have a really big point of concept discussion that I will make a new topic for when we get there. Keep it up, guys!
There has been a lot of back and forth and general lack of understanding of both the concept and why I'm asking the questions that I am. I recognize better than anyone that yes, stats, abilities, and typing will play a huge part in both the concept's success as well as how it operates. We get it, we really do, but that's not what we're talking about. We will have discussion threads for all of the other stages of the CAP, don't worry. We should not be developing plans for stats or abilities or typing now! It's all important, yes, but we'll get to those things when we get there. As for now, we need to decide how CAP 2 should operate so down the road we can choose stats, abilities, and typing to match them.
So far, there's been a lot of agreement with bulky offense, but there's also been a lot of rambling about other topics. I'll address a few recurring concerns here with bulky offense so that you better understand why I support it. While I agree that the threat of Shell Smash is huge for something with sufficient bulk and even mediocre defense, there is far more than that going on with a successful Shell Smasher. Cloyster as an example may have that mold, but it has a 125 Base Attack Power Icicle Spear, a 125 Base Attack Power Rock Blast, and STAB Water-type coverage to boot. CAP 2 likely won't have those things going for it to make it such a dominating Shell Smashing threat. Shell Smash alone is not cause for worry or terror, and it should not be treated as such. There are, as others have mentioned, better moves for other situations. The same applies for Spore. Spore is a luxury move if you have space on your moveset. Just being able to put a Pokemon to sleep is insufficient if you're simultaneously incapable of actually taking advantage of the sleeping Pokemon and free turns. Furthermore, because of sleep clause, Spore becomes dead weight if the opponent just leaves one of their Pokemon sleeping from your Spore. Spore will not be a concern unless we give CAP 2 ways independent of Sketch to take advantage of those turns. We can do that if we want to, but we won't be discussing it here. We will be discussing it down the road at the movepool discussion stage.
I still favor the bulky offense mold, and it appears that there's not many others that really don't agree with it (who are making serious cases, anyway). There were some posts for true defense, but I'm still convinced that it will end up limiting our options too much with Sketch. Sketch enables access to a plethora of coverage moves and setup moves, and I think exploring how the various boosting moves will see use will be good for the concept. I also don't think that being offensive precludes people using Sketch for moves like Spikes or Toxic Spikes if their team calls for it. If the Pokemon is sufficiently bulky and at least competent offensively, people may forgo boosting moves to have an offensive and synergistic Pokemon able to support the rest of their offensive team. I know for sure that on some of my teams it's tough to fit in SR or Spikes, although I really want them, and I usually have to sacrifice a really good team player for it. If CAP 2 can do it while still being a solid team player, that's all the better for the concept and what we get out of it.
I'll leave this segment of the discussion open for at least 24 hours before moving to the next point. I have a really big point of concept discussion that I will make a new topic for when we get there. Keep it up, guys!
/Late
Honestly, this is being discussed fully enough already. Sketchy (I'mma borrow this Pwnemon) is going to be a very interesting 'Mon, but if it's not assessed correctly it's going to go off the rails.
But, going into the naturality of it: IMO, Sketchy needs to be wanting nothing other to do than use it's Sketch'd move. I think this would sort a LOT out of the possibilty of simply making an Overpowered CAPmon, and it would give us a bit more insight into how versatility effects the metagame... But in this case, it works off the bat.
Please pardon me if I'm not making sense or don't have alot to work on. First time designing Competitive scenes, y'know...
Honestly, this is being discussed fully enough already. Sketchy (I'mma borrow this Pwnemon) is going to be a very interesting 'Mon, but if it's not assessed correctly it's going to go off the rails.
But, going into the naturality of it: IMO, Sketchy needs to be wanting nothing other to do than use it's Sketch'd move. I think this would sort a LOT out of the possibilty of simply making an Overpowered CAPmon, and it would give us a bit more insight into how versatility effects the metagame... But in this case, it works off the bat.
Please pardon me if I'm not making sense or don't have alot to work on. First time designing Competitive scenes, y'know...
The points that I agree with so far are the following:
- LouisCyphre saying that we should forced the role to be dictated by the Sketch move;
- reachzero and others going for an offensive focus;
- reachzero calling for a small movepool to emphasize Sketch (similar to LouisCyphre's comment, I suppose).
The call for an offensive focus isn't to say that CAP 2 should be offensive all day every day. I just think that support roles need the least help (they often only really need that one Sketch slot) and that defensive roles need too much help (they often require four specific moves). I don't quite want to say "bulky offense" because I think that that says a bit too much about potential stat spreads, but I generally agree that it would probably be a bad idea to make a frail sweeper.
I think that we should ultimately make CAP 2 versatile (otherwise what's the point) but not excessively so. In essence, it may be sufficient to give CAP 2 enough to excel in one support role and in one offensive role. Again, I definitely think that offense needs more help in this area, but I think that, if CAP 2 were to use a utility or semi-utility move, that move should be its specialty. This *could* mean it gets a Shell Smash set and a Spore set, but it doesn't necessarily.
Maybe I'm just rambling, but I hope that I made a somewhat meaningful contribution... I'm definitely like to think about *how* to go about doing all this, so I await what's to come.
- LouisCyphre saying that we should forced the role to be dictated by the Sketch move;
- reachzero and others going for an offensive focus;
- reachzero calling for a small movepool to emphasize Sketch (similar to LouisCyphre's comment, I suppose).
The call for an offensive focus isn't to say that CAP 2 should be offensive all day every day. I just think that support roles need the least help (they often only really need that one Sketch slot) and that defensive roles need too much help (they often require four specific moves). I don't quite want to say "bulky offense" because I think that that says a bit too much about potential stat spreads, but I generally agree that it would probably be a bad idea to make a frail sweeper.
I think that we should ultimately make CAP 2 versatile (otherwise what's the point) but not excessively so. In essence, it may be sufficient to give CAP 2 enough to excel in one support role and in one offensive role. Again, I definitely think that offense needs more help in this area, but I think that, if CAP 2 were to use a utility or semi-utility move, that move should be its specialty. This *could* mean it gets a Shell Smash set and a Spore set, but it doesn't necessarily.
Maybe I'm just rambling, but I hope that I made a somewhat meaningful contribution... I'm definitely like to think about *how* to go about doing all this, so I await what's to come.
I was going to say this, but Tobes beat me to it. Similar stats all around allows a pokemon the speed and power to utilize (notice how I didn't say abuse) Shell Smash/Quiver Dance etc, the defense to utilize hazards, and the speed to abuse spore. Of the three options, if it is anywhere near balanced stats, Shell Smash/Quiver Dance would probably be the most useful set by far. Perhaps the use of the other moves could be justified with slightly lower attack/special attack or a priority weak type?
Edit: As Deck Knight said, another interesting concept to look at is a Seperior like pokemon (insofar as stats can be concerned). A bulky and fast pokemon could be threatening (but not devastating) after a Shell Smash/Quiver Dance, utilize its speed to get the sketch support move in, or run a defensive set (subseed with a good defensive type anyone?).
People have argued that it should be offensive, but does anyone realize the fantastic defensive capabilities that this pokemon has? Imagine Ferrothorn with Recover or Rapid Spin, or Skarmory with Toxic Spikes, or even Cotton Guard Blissey. There is huge potential for this mon to be defensive or supporting. Yet we cannot forget the huge potential for this mon to be offensive. That's why I want this mon to be a very balanced mon. Sketch allows it to be incredibly versatile, and the pokemon's offensive or defensive leanings shouldn't hinder its versatility. I agree that we make it akin to the pixies (not exactly the same) or give it a spread similar to Nidoking. Because many people want it to be quicker, we could give it higher speed or something, making it a bit more of a deoxys-s (obviously with more balanced stats) or something. But we want this mon to be the definition of versatility and unpredictability.
Asylum_Rhapsody
Guest
I am new to this whole thing, so I'm just going to say in advance that I'm asking these questions and making these points out of honest curiosity, not to be disrespectful or challenge anybody's authority or anything.
If one of the questions that was asked was "How do you balance a single of any move in the game on a Pokemon?", and if part of our individual answers to that specifically deal with weaknesses in other areas, such as in stats, abilities, or typing, then how do we answer that question without bringing those things up, including examples of those things so that we can better convey the message of our answers? It seems that here in your very post you discuss some of these things.
I'm not sure that I'm seeing the same thing that you're seeing. What I seem to be seeing a lot of agreement with is the idea of a more balanced baseline that could swing either way, to allow this ideally versatile Pokemon to be able to excel at many different strategies and really use Sketch to its maximum potential. I will outright admit that my perception is probably tainted by confirmation bias, but I think that it's worth considering that yours may be as well.
I asked this question before, but it was never answered, or if it was, then I didn't catch it: I've seen people say that a defensive Pokemon would limit our options too much with Sketch, but while I agree that may be true, isn't the reverse also true that an offensive Pokemon would limit our options too much with Sketch? Isn't either way going to skew (not limit, but skew) the use of Sketch toward moves that better accomplish that role?
They are two points that I feel are important to recognize.
1. Stats are not the only way to limit a pokemon! We do not have to go completely overboard about giving Skethcmon stats that limit it. One key aspect that hasn't been mentioned much is typing. The typing of Skethmon can also wildly affect how it works.
2. We know a lot about Sketch from Smeargle. We should not end up creating a pokemon that is either a worse or better version of Smeargle. Sketchmon should analyze things about sketch that we have not clearly seen. I think this mainly comes from the actual attacks. Smeargle cannot abuse the attacks it has access to, and instead is a support pokemon. Sketchmon should show us this other side of Sketch.
Sketchmon should be a pokemon that is able to utilize the moves it has access to, without becoming a sweeper that can rip through teams. That's why I think Bulky Offense is the best way to go. There are two main models that I think would represent how Sketchmon could turn out.
Gliscor: Gliscor is a very good pokemon stat wise. It has ample attack, defense, and speed. It has STAB on a very nice attacking type, and has access to all the boosting moves it could need. However, it is not a very strong sweeper. If we were to make Skethmon similar to Gliscor, it would be able to use strong attacks, but not sweep. Gliscor is somewhat held back by its 4x weakness to ice. Using another non-stat weakness to aid us, would allow for good results.
Scrafty: Scrafty is a more another option which is truly bulky offense. This would somewhat limit Sketchomn's ability to use support moves, but that might be a good thing. Scrafy has already been explained as a model in other posts, so I won't go into that.
1. Stats are not the only way to limit a pokemon! We do not have to go completely overboard about giving Skethcmon stats that limit it. One key aspect that hasn't been mentioned much is typing. The typing of Skethmon can also wildly affect how it works.
2. We know a lot about Sketch from Smeargle. We should not end up creating a pokemon that is either a worse or better version of Smeargle. Sketchmon should analyze things about sketch that we have not clearly seen. I think this mainly comes from the actual attacks. Smeargle cannot abuse the attacks it has access to, and instead is a support pokemon. Sketchmon should show us this other side of Sketch.
Sketchmon should be a pokemon that is able to utilize the moves it has access to, without becoming a sweeper that can rip through teams. That's why I think Bulky Offense is the best way to go. There are two main models that I think would represent how Sketchmon could turn out.
Gliscor: Gliscor is a very good pokemon stat wise. It has ample attack, defense, and speed. It has STAB on a very nice attacking type, and has access to all the boosting moves it could need. However, it is not a very strong sweeper. If we were to make Skethmon similar to Gliscor, it would be able to use strong attacks, but not sweep. Gliscor is somewhat held back by its 4x weakness to ice. Using another non-stat weakness to aid us, would allow for good results.
Scrafty: Scrafty is a more another option which is truly bulky offense. This would somewhat limit Sketchomn's ability to use support moves, but that might be a good thing. Scrafy has already been explained as a model in other posts, so I won't go into that.
I'd like to see a Pokemon with an offensive leaning as an offensive mon would have more options to sketch with than a defensive mon. An offensive Pokemon can sketch a boosting move of their choice, a coverage move, a support move that helps them set up (spore), et cetera. A defensive mon could take advantage of... an HP draining move? Reliable Recovery? Aromatherapy? The options for a defensive Pokemon seem much more limited for viable sketch moves than something offensive.
For the most part, I was just ninja'd by Deck Knight. I fully agree with what he has to say.
For the most part, I was just ninja'd by Deck Knight. I fully agree with what he has to say.
I'd agree with the ones posting that a balanced 'Mon with above average HP and Speed might be the way to go here. Let's face it, a Sketcher is inherently somewhat formidable; that coupled with Moody is why Smeargle will likely be banned when that ability comes out. Whatever move gets Sketched essentially defines the role it will take, like LouisCyphre said earlier. What I don't agree with, however, is that it should get crazy Speed or absurdly high HP. I think the stats should be nerfed to average levels to avoid having one particular set become the "end-all". I envision this concept going in the direction of "versatile, but weak" (sort of like Mew, but with worse stats) as opposed to "versatile and powerful." The key here is trade-offs. What should be appropriate to counteract the ability to learn any move of your choice? Maybe later on we can give it a weak movepool, but at this early stage, my choice is its stats.
Using Smeargle as a backdrop for analysis, in DPP OU and DPP UU, one extraordinarily important point was shown: A Pokemon's effectiveness with unlimited sketch is affected almost directly with its Speed.
Now, this pokemon only has sketch once, and regardless of whether offensive / defensive / support is chosen, any of those 3 archetypes can justifiably have a high Speed stat.
Honestly, it's impossible to even reasonably answer most of Rising_Dusk's questions because we literally have no idea what moves will be sketched without at least a general idea of what moves it learns naturally. If it doesn't learn strong offensive moves or have decent offensive stabs, having access to Shell Smash / Quiver Dance will be pointless. High Speed would ensure moves like Spore / Spikes (both in a small number of pokemon) can be used effectively (especially with items like Lum Berry or Focus Sash at our disposal).
If I'm forced to answer these questions entirely blindly, I'd say, if offensive, making sure we keep in mind that eventually giving it one of Dragon / Fighting / Fire / Rock / Ground STABs, with appropriate offensive STAB moves, is important.
I don't see this working well defensively unless it already has a significant defensive movepool given to it (dependable 50% recovery move) along with decent defenses (might be looking too far into the future).
With Smeargle in mind, I honestly see support as the most practically viable (as long as we focus on high Speed), because items like Lum Berry / Focus Sash can help us mostly ensure that we get a Spore or Spikes off pretty easily.
Regarding balance, no, you don't need to work too hard to rebalance it. It only gets 1 extra move, and in defensive / support capacities, this severely limits any potential brokenness it might have. The area you need to look at for balancing is offensively, where access to either Shell Smash (with White Herb as an item) and Quiver Dance might cause us to reduce its STAB combination offensive efficiency, or perhaps limit (a bit) what diversely powerful moves it gets. Also...if offensive...make sure it doesn't get Baton Pass naturally lol.
No more smashpassers with white herb plz.
Now, this pokemon only has sketch once, and regardless of whether offensive / defensive / support is chosen, any of those 3 archetypes can justifiably have a high Speed stat.
Honestly, it's impossible to even reasonably answer most of Rising_Dusk's questions because we literally have no idea what moves will be sketched without at least a general idea of what moves it learns naturally. If it doesn't learn strong offensive moves or have decent offensive stabs, having access to Shell Smash / Quiver Dance will be pointless. High Speed would ensure moves like Spore / Spikes (both in a small number of pokemon) can be used effectively (especially with items like Lum Berry or Focus Sash at our disposal).
If I'm forced to answer these questions entirely blindly, I'd say, if offensive, making sure we keep in mind that eventually giving it one of Dragon / Fighting / Fire / Rock / Ground STABs, with appropriate offensive STAB moves, is important.
I don't see this working well defensively unless it already has a significant defensive movepool given to it (dependable 50% recovery move) along with decent defenses (might be looking too far into the future).
With Smeargle in mind, I honestly see support as the most practically viable (as long as we focus on high Speed), because items like Lum Berry / Focus Sash can help us mostly ensure that we get a Spore or Spikes off pretty easily.
Regarding balance, no, you don't need to work too hard to rebalance it. It only gets 1 extra move, and in defensive / support capacities, this severely limits any potential brokenness it might have. The area you need to look at for balancing is offensively, where access to either Shell Smash (with White Herb as an item) and Quiver Dance might cause us to reduce its STAB combination offensive efficiency, or perhaps limit (a bit) what diversely powerful moves it gets. Also...if offensive...make sure it doesn't get Baton Pass naturally lol.
No more smashpassers with white herb plz.
I'd agree heavily with the comparisons of this to Scrafty and Froslass.
Sketch cannot be a Level-Up move at all, because it can then be relearned with Heart Scales.
Sketch can only be an egg move.
Sketch can only be an egg move.
Ok, so what I have been seeing here is that there are two main views: bulky offense and pure balance. Personally though, I'm not sure if, statistically at least, these two are that far off from each other. I personally would agree with the bulky offense view, but I would like to reiterate that this should be something more like Scrafty, in which, while it is definitely more defensive it in its stats, its movepool and ability prevent it from being straight up defensive. I believe this is the best way to not only give CAP2 a defined roll, but also keep it balanced.
Speaking of balance, one think I have seen mentioned a few times is the possibility of having the same stats right across the board. And while I understand peoples reasoning behind this, I do not believe it would actually work as they assume. While the offensive/defensive bias of a pokemon is actually slightly defensive when it has the same stats across the board (assuming those stats are higher than 57), adding the ability to use any move I believe will inherently shift the Pokemon to a more offensive threat. A good example here would be Mew vs Manaphy. Both have the same 100 stats for everything. However, they play very differently. Mew, while it has more tricks up its sleeve than Manaphy, does not really have any overwhelming moves. When we look at the moves that CAP2 would likely Sketch, few if any can actually be used by Mew. And, in accordance with this, most of Mew's common sets are more defensive or supportive, as it's slightly defensive biased stats would suggest. Manaphy is another case entirely though. Statistically, it should be similarly a more defensive Pokemon, and looking at what it can do, it mostly is. Hydration Rest in the rain makes it hard to take down, and decent coverage and boosted STAB make it a tank to be reckoned with. But those few things do little to make it stand out as the uber it is. However, one little move changes all that: Tail Glow. With the powerful boosts under its belt it is just too much for OU to handle. Basically, my point in bringing all this up is that while a stat spread might indicate good balance, or even slight defensive bias, the top offensive moves that would be sketched provide so much power to offenses that a supposed balanced stat spread will always lean offensive.
Therefore, if balance is truely what is desired, a bulky stat spread like Scrafty would probably be the best way to go anyways.
Speaking of balance, one think I have seen mentioned a few times is the possibility of having the same stats right across the board. And while I understand peoples reasoning behind this, I do not believe it would actually work as they assume. While the offensive/defensive bias of a pokemon is actually slightly defensive when it has the same stats across the board (assuming those stats are higher than 57), adding the ability to use any move I believe will inherently shift the Pokemon to a more offensive threat. A good example here would be Mew vs Manaphy. Both have the same 100 stats for everything. However, they play very differently. Mew, while it has more tricks up its sleeve than Manaphy, does not really have any overwhelming moves. When we look at the moves that CAP2 would likely Sketch, few if any can actually be used by Mew. And, in accordance with this, most of Mew's common sets are more defensive or supportive, as it's slightly defensive biased stats would suggest. Manaphy is another case entirely though. Statistically, it should be similarly a more defensive Pokemon, and looking at what it can do, it mostly is. Hydration Rest in the rain makes it hard to take down, and decent coverage and boosted STAB make it a tank to be reckoned with. But those few things do little to make it stand out as the uber it is. However, one little move changes all that: Tail Glow. With the powerful boosts under its belt it is just too much for OU to handle. Basically, my point in bringing all this up is that while a stat spread might indicate good balance, or even slight defensive bias, the top offensive moves that would be sketched provide so much power to offenses that a supposed balanced stat spread will always lean offensive.
Therefore, if balance is truely what is desired, a bulky stat spread like Scrafty would probably be the best way to go anyways.
one thing I was thinking was what I call "Gen V Bulkymon syndrome", where the mon has above average stats across the board, (and better offenses than Scrafty, mind you, in this case) but god-awful speed. Speed so low that not even Shell Smash could save it. That's if we're going for bulky offense. I feel it would solve the Shell Smash problem associated with bulky offense that was mentioned a few times.
I really don't think that high speed is necessary. The reason Smeargle needs its speed so badly is because it doesn't have the bulk to survive any hits, so needs to be able to go first. That won't necessarily be true for this pokemon. In an offensive role, this pokemon could still boost its speed to acceptable levels without it starting off with an insane speed stat; in a defensive role, speed is generally unecessary regardless of the move; and in a support role it needs to be fast OR be able to take a few hits. High speed is one way to go, but its not the only functional one. If Scrafty had the movepool, i could very easily see it playing a supportive role, even with its abysmal speed.
And I would argue that the opposite is true. Even though Froslass is fast, it is super frail and can't stand up to many hits: even some neutral ones can OHKO it. A poorly defensed Pokemon would almost be required to run a move like Shell Smash, where it becomes very powerful with one turn of set up, and then goes to town as a frail sweeper. Whereas a bulky Pokemon can either set up, hit hard with good STAB without fear of getting eliminated immediately, or provide multiple turns of support. Froslass certainly doesn't stick around very long in any given match (unless you are running Parafusion in the Hail like a boss), which decreases versatility. In my opinion, a lower speed only limits options like Taunt that are almost required to go first in order to be effective.
Again, when I first presented the Scrafty model, I argued for a bit less bulky and a bit more speedy to even things out. A speed stat that can be buffed up easily with Shell Smash / Shift Gear while maintaining enough bulk to take some hits to either perform defensive or supportive actions. That provides the most flexibility, in my opinion.
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