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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Rising_Dusk, Nov 15, 2011.

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  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    The concept for CAP 2, as voted on by the community, is as follows:
    Focus: Bulky Offense

    This thread is the first of its kind in CAP, and is where we will decide the joint typing of CAP 2. You may suggest mono-typings here, such as "Normal" or "Fighting", however you may also suggest dual-typings here, such as "Normal / Fighting" or "Ghost / Rock". Please make sure to back up your suggestions with logic, as otherwise your post will be moderated. Furthermore, don't throw your support behind things that others have submitted without providing your own comments to add to what they had to say. At the end of this discussion, which will last for at least 24 hours, I will choose a slate of the typing combinations from those presented that best fit the role we've chosen for CAP 2.

    Note that our focus is bulky offense, so things to think about include good STAB coverage mixed with good complementary resistances. Also remember that with Smeargle as our witness, we need to ensure that the typing has visible holes, but clear areas where it excels. We haven't discussed the counters and checks to CAP 2, and won't until we have a typing, but some of the best defense you can provide for your chosen typing includes how your typing interacts with OU's top contenders. Also recall that CAP 2 gets one of any move, so keep in mind what your typing provides CAP 2 in terms of Sketch possibilities. Fire would give us Sacred Fire and V-Create as STABs, whereas Electric would give us Bolt Strike, Fighting would give us Sacred Sword, and so forth.

    Lastly, although the numbers provided in this thread aren't being used for the slate, it may be a useful reference for those community members suggesting typings.

    [​IMG]
    tl;dr: Quack! (Typing!)
  2. WeatherEffectRain

    WeatherEffectRain

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    Water/Steel

    Honestly, I feel like this could work, pardon the pun, swimmingly. As you know, Water is a great offensive AND defensive typing; coupled with Steel, we can see the resistances and boons of this typing. As well as that, with it's weaknesses commonly resisted by other common 'Mons, giving itself a boost of plausibility.

    The only real problems, I see at least, are it's common weaknesses being so common. Fighting, specifically, could pose a huge threat to this mon... But o'course, it could just sketch up a flying move, amirite?

    It can also be called the Water Color Pokemon ^-^


    EDIT: I forgot to discuss other possibilities. Please pardon me while I type-

    EDIT:

    There's also plenty of other possibilities to come through with: Several of which are pleasing, with some interesting ideas that could be flung around. We could go neutral with a Normal type, and it has the boon of, well, being neutral. Oh yeah, and STAB Espeed. Ghost is also a good idea, as it lends a great variety of possibilities, including but not limited to: Immunity to the majority of Priority, bar Bullet Punch and Sucker Punch, Fighting for the sheer amount of Fighting moves which can lend itself huge use boosts to it's plausiblity; Something with fighting is generally good. There's also several others, such as Bug or Flying, which show some great plausibility.

    Also, Flying would cause some interesting benefits, but it would curse it to a horrible BoltBeam weakness; But it would parry that with resistances capable of bringing it to great, bar pun No2, heights, and bless it with great mesh-able coverage with ypes like Steel or the like.

    And then there's Dragon, which has it's obvious merits. I could also merit it a "Bad" typing, such as Rock/Something, to give it some sort of grip if we want to change it's goal a bit, like making it faster or the like.

    Honestly, I feel that Water/Steel is more usable, though. It gives it a nice mix of bulky typing as well as good offensiveness. I'm still up to others' opinions, though.
  3. Spork

    Spork

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    I want to start off by stressing that this stage, if not tackled very carefully, could end up greatly limiting the number of forms CAP2’s Sketch move could take, thereby limiting its versatility. If maximising the amount of roles we want it to take on is a priority – e.g. not limiting it to using, for example, ‘Quiver Dance’ on every set – then there are several things we need to take into account for its typing. I’ll tackle offensive typing first.

    The first thing we need to consider is good, neutral offensive coverage. That is, CAP2 should be able to hit most of the metagame at least neutrally with its STABs alone. If we don’t give it coverage with its STABs, then its myriad boosting moves – Shell Smash, Tail Glow, Shift Gear etc. – are going to be far less usable, and part of what I garnered from the concept discussion (particularly highlighted in its bulky attacker outcome) is that being able to effectively use these moves is a very important part of how people see this mon. If we are going to boost an attacking stat with the intention of sweeping, then its offensive movepool – considering that it will probably be limited entirely to STABs and very weak coverage options outside of Sketch, otherwise we run into more problems with the concept – needs to be walled as little as possible in terms of resistances, otherwise it simply won’t be able to sweep. With good netural coverage, CAP2 can also use support moves whilst maintaining an offensive presence that isn’t going to miss its coverage moves too sorely. However, it is important that coverage is good, not great; there ought to be things that can wall its STABs, which encourages the use of an alternate coverage move with Sketch, or possibly Spore to incapacitate a counter (remember, at every stage we need to encourage different uses of Sketch). This means that, whilst Dragon/Fighting (for example) has perfect neutral coverage, it has the potential to break the concept because its coverage means a boosting move will always be preferred – giving it weak attacks (like Dragon Claw over Outrage, or Sky Uppercut over Close Combat) can avert this somewhat however.

    Whilst good, neutral offensive coverage in its STABs is therefore extremely important for this part of the concept, I will also say that its STABs should not have good, super-effective coverage. The reason being for this is that, once you can hit multiple things super-effectively, a boosting move becomes secondary to a coverage move, as you can break through most things without boosting - this is admittedly somewhat dependant on speed and bulk, however (although there seems to be some agreement so far that both speed and bulk should be fairly high). Having Fighting/Fire typing, for example, provides good neutral coverage, but its SE coverage is so good that slapping something like Power Whip or Spore on it seems to outclass any boosting set, as you have instant wallbreaking power, since few teams are going to carry multiple answers to the Fighting/Fire combination. Band/Scarf/LO sets become the standard with good SE coverage.

    On a final note, I would say that balancing its typing defensively should be less of a priority than balancing it offensively. Generally, it would be preferable to keep CAP2 free of weaknesses - but those same weaknesses could allow it to act as probably the best general lure in the game, with its powerful attacking moves and Spore. I would argue at this stage that, at the very least, common 4x weaknesses would be extremely undesirable and counter-effective to the whole idea of a ‘bulky sweeper’.

    However, when considering the part of my argument focusing on offenses, it does seem to be that a lot of the natural conclusions lead towards pokemon that are somewhat decent defensively – Dragon, Water, Electric, Normal, Ghost – these are all types with good neutral offensive coverage and few weaknesses. I’ll post more on typings I have in mind once I hear responses :)
  4. Metal Bagon

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    I agree with water tping but I think we should go with either Water/Ground or Water/Flying. These would both be good, unbroken typing for a bulky attacker. An idea for a common item could be the Wacan Berry (for water/flying: resist's electric) or the Rindo Berry (for water/ground: resist's grass) as these would give them no weakness' as long as those tiems were held and would allow them to stat boost up.

    If the above is so we could easily make this pokemon a bit like swampert but obviously with lower stats to make up for sketch being slightly overpowered and allow this pokemon to have a wide variety of stat boosts even with sketch.

    I'll add more to this post when I have the time.
  5. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    I'd like to propose Normal/Ghost because it is an interesting type combination in that it has immunities that help it to switch in, but it also has a bad pair of STABs which will force CAP2 to rely on its Sketch move for offensive coverage.

    More when not on my ipod.
  6. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

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    Finally, the typing. I've been looking forward to this for a few days.

    Poison - It resists Fighting which is huge this generation, is immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes, and it's weaknesses include Psychic and Ground--but both are manageable. It is also a terrible offensive STAB which I believe helps balance this concept, so pairing it with an offensive type could balance it out pretty well. I like Electric or Grass, but I'm okay with almost anything.

    If we're going Bulky Offense I believe a more defensive type paired with an offensive typing is great for this concept instead of two defensive or two offensive types.
  7. I'm thinking Normal is the way to go on this.

    1) I feel that, even before using Sketch, this Pokemon should have access to a wide variety of moves that are of average quality (example: Flamethrower, not fantastic but certainly serviceable), and Normal Pokemon tend to fit that mold well both mechanically and thematically, though there are certainly some Pokemon of other types that do that well (example: Nidoking, which is Poison/Ground).

    2) Normal mono-typing may help us to balance out the Pokemon. Yes, its coverage will suffer, but we need to balance this Pokemon somewhere, and I think that giving it less than stellar but still serviceable typing, both offensively and defensively, is the way to go.

    3) (And let me know if this counts as poll-jumping, because even though I'm discussing an ability, it's extremely contingent on the Pokemon's typing and also helps to justify this typing suggestion.) Normal typing opens up the door for Normalize to be used viably as an ability. Combined with getting Sketch, this means that the Pokemon ends up with STAB on any and all attacks, and I know that settling on what its STAB will be is a big deal here with this Pokemon. I believe that this would open the door for greater versatility in what this Pokemon will be able to viably obtain with Sketch, which was the point of the Multi-Type ability suggested before. Yes, this would have its down sides, such as limiting coverage and making the Pokemon entirely useless against Ghosts, but this Pokemon has to have a down side somewhere, and I still think that being able to get STAB with any attack move and widening the pool of viable Sketch options is worth considering. This sort of idea doesn't work unless the Pokemon has at least partially Normal typing.

    Additional things that I believe should be kept in mind when coming up with... really anything about this Pokemon:

    A) This Pokemon should theoretically be in the Field egg group, so its typing and general design should allow that as a conceptually fitting egg group.

    B) This Pokemon only gets Sketch as an egg move. Therefore, this Pokemon should theoretically be typed and otherwise designed with the idea in mind that this is a Pokemon that only obtains Sketch incidentally, not as a core part of its concept as a Pokemon in general.
  8. Tals

    Tals

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    I was actually typing up a similar arguement for Mono-Poison, I didn't expect anyone else to come to the same conclusion, and I'm so glad that you posted before me.

    Where you might think Poison could be crippling (and for sure, it has it's weak points), with a good stat spread would really widen options, because it's not going to pidgeonhole the mon in to trying for STABs most of the time (though I would love to see some crazy Venoshock builds). With poison, you have to give up your STAB to get any kind of super effective coverage. You won't see the type favour the special move, like going Fire or Dragon would.

    I'm pro mono on this, but if you want a neutral coverage option, Poison pairs with Ghost, Steel (though I think Poison/Steel is a very defensively typed mon, maybe with offensive stats we'd see something interesting, as Steel also gets poor super effective coverage), Water, Electric, Psychic, Ice or Dragon

    I recommend people have a hard think about how good Poison could be at avoiding "best choice" situations for this Pokemon.
  9. WeatherEffectRain

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    Neutrally good coverage does have it's merits, and I'll agree here. I personally feel that, again, Water benefits greatly in this. I feel like Water's only downfall is the attraction of Rain, and in turn Politoed, to boost it's STAB, thus rendering Sketch less usable; See: Fire, Solarbeam, Etc.

    I'm agreeing with Neutrality, though.

    This feels like it's going to work out well: Neutrality is probably the necessity we should cover in it's typing. The best neutral coverage afforded, IMO, comes from Dragon, Water or Rock, all three which would give gracious benefits and negations.

    This is also an honest good idea. Although, at such high boosts, it really doesn't matter, and Dragon Claw or Sky Uppercut would still crush some common 'Mons.

    i take it this means no Fire or Fighting, Eh? Of course, this would also negate some other options: Ice, for example, could be a bit more balanced than others, but would be negated: Look at Cloyster.

    Of course, defensive IS a bit honestly capable. In my example of Water/Steel, it has a nice combo of one good neutral STAB, and the great defensive typing of Steel.. as well as Water, actually. Honestly, I feel like it would work well.

    I think my Water/Steel was a fairly good guess for this... Weaknesses to the common Ground, Fighting and Electric Attacks really does boost it's "Lure"-ability.

    (Yay for Water)
  10. capefeather

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    I want to talk about Grass. It's a very good, highly underrated offensive type that beats down on common sand-loving and rain-loving Pokémon, and it has some pretty cool moves, such as Giga Drain. However, it also has Seed Flare, and I'm not sure how productive it would be to allow STAB Seed Flare to be possible. It's still a very solid option imo.

    I'd also like to talk about Fire. This type would bring with it STAB on Fiery Dance / Sacred Fire / Searing Shot / V-create. Whoa, man. I don't think I would want to turn this into "what's the best awesome Fire move to Sketch".

    There is also Normal. The main reason I don't like this is that it really doesn't bring anything other than STAB ExtremeSpeed, and I think I'd rather avoid that.

    I also think that it would benefit the concept to have a typing that does not resist most priority moves. I guess a resistance to Mach Punch or Aqua Jet isn't too bad, but resisting stuff like ExtremeSpeed and Bullet Punch might be bad for balancing Shell Smash. I've personally envisioned a CAP that can be rather easily revenged by priority if it uses Shell Smash. On the other hand, we *are* going for bulky offense here, so perhaps CAP 2 shouldn't be weak to priority, either. Sucker Punch is fine, I guess, and I suppose Ice Shard aren't that important, either.

    This leaves the rest of the reel:
    Bug, Fighting, Ghost, Poison, Psychic, Dragon, Flying, Ground, maybe Grass

    That's what my thoughts are for now.
  11. Tomahawk

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    Well, seeing as this can learn every game in the move once, I think a few types don't fit--they're just "too good". Imagine a Shell Smashing Dragon, or a spinblocker with Spore, or all entry hazards. That being said, I'd like to see a Grass-type, especially when combined with Rock. This wouldn't be a really broken typing, but it has some nifty resists, and decent offensive coverage.
  12. tea_and_blues

    tea_and_blues

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    Elaborating on why I was also thinking Normal/Ghost, as shinyskarmory suggested:

    Normal/Ghost

    Immune to Normal, Fighting and Ghost attacks and resisting Bug and Poison, CAP2 could function as a spinblocker able to claw back momentum after an intelligent prediction. Three immunities is just great on the defensive.

    Normal seems to fit very well with access to Sketch. Ghost just adds that extra defensive quality, as well as another handy STAB, albeit not one that's going to break CAP2.

    Normal STAB nets quite nice coverage, Ghost less so, but with access to every powerful move in the game our little CAP2 should be able to cover its offensive blind spots without ending up broken. Extremespeed, Frustration/Return, it could even Rapid Spin with STAB, for the little that's worth. I'm looking here at a moderately bulky Pokemon that can potentially hit very hard, either by nature of its stats or by boosting, but often it has to hit neutrally.

    A risk would be, with so many Steel and Dragon Pokes on the defensive, that CAP2 would default to sketching powerful Fire, Fighting and Ice attacks - Fire especially due to the inability to otherwise tackle Steel. I like the typing, but I do worry it could potentially result in a CAP2 that Sketches V-Creates just to survive encounters with Ferrothorn.
  13. Tals

    Tals

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    What you point out is a really big downfall though. Do we really want to play this pokemon in to being yet another set piece to rain teams? If you make it water, unless you give it Swift Swim (which would seem like an odd ability choice) people are going to play it alongside Politoed and most of what it does will come down to that.

    This of course also goes for Fire, which on top of having access to the brutal V-Create and Sacred Fire on STAB, would very often find itself sunning out alongside Ninetails. While sunny day isn't as prevalent, it could suddenly be if given an option like that.

    Rock probably needs a mention too, because even though it's bonus in sandstorm isn't offensive, if we are going the bulky offence route, that bonus special defence is possibly significant. While not as concerning as the other two, we could once again be limiting it.

    I'm not sure that ice has the same issues, given Hail is far less common, and doesn't give a bonus to ice attacks or defences.
  14. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

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    I just posted but I wanted to post again so people who've already read my first post just don't glance over it.

    I propose Poison/Dragon.

    • No Weaknesses overlap -- Weak to Ice, Dragon, Ground, Psychic.
    • Includes 7 resistances -- notably x4 resist to Grass, x2 to Fighting.
    • Neutral to Stealth Rock
    • Immune to Toxic and absorbs Toxic Spikes
    • Poison is a crappy offensive typing, but Dragon is a great one. Steels in particular wall both STABs, but using Poison-attacks outside of trying to Toxic something isn't very useful.
    • This does give CAP2 access to Dragon attacks (hopefully) by default, letting Sketch and possibly HP to cover it's weaknesses.
  15. Nightmare Jigglypuff

    Nightmare Jigglypuff

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    So i was thinking about this for a bit. I realized that in order for it to be a bulky offense like we want it to be, it should either have rapid spin support, or be resistant/neutral to Stealth Rock. The types that resist Rock are Fighting, Ground, and Steel. That's not a lot to work with. At the same time, with the other type we have to focus on the offensive part of CAP2. With that in mind, i propose Grass/Ground. I find it favorable because Grass offense is pretty underrated, especially since you can use Power Whip/Grass Knot, and Ground is there since it takes care of Electric, Fire, SR, Steel, and others.

    Comments? Criticisms? Direct them to MoP. Let me know.
  16. Rising_Dusk

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    I don't think we should auto-rule out types like Dragon. I think it may be in our best interests to take a strong offensive type and couple it with a strong defensive type, but maintain holes in the coverage and resistances. So a strong attacking type like Dragon paired with a weak offensive, but good defensive, type like Poison is a fairly strong idea. Walled by Steels and some other things, but that's what Sketch is for! Maybe you would sleep your counter, or maybe you'd want coverage to help with a sweep through that counter, or so forth. I think this would be a good model to follow, with Dragon / Poison being a good example of it.

    I'd also like to motion that I think Fire is among the poorest types we could choose for CAP 2. Fire-type STAB on Sacred Fire or V-Create (Which I firmly believe is inferior to Sacred Fire) would limit our Sketch options by making Sacred Fire the crème de la crème.
  17. Omicron

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    Normal / Ghost seems the ideal typing to me for those reasons provided. Despite not having too many resistances, it has immunity to Normal-, Fighting-, and Ghost-type attacks, some of the most common attacking types in the game. In addition, it would function well as a spin blocker (theorymonning here but it'll probably get WoW since it would be a Ghost-type), and do well against other Ghost-types thanks to its secondary Normal typing.
  18. smallvizier

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    What kind of attacking roles might CaP2 take?

    It might pick one powerful move and try to bulldoze through as much as possible with that. This move should have high BP but also a broad neutral coverage against the top threats. Fighting is the best bet here, hitting all the most common pokemon but Dragonite and Gliscor.

    Alternatively Cap2 might pick a great boosting move, and try to wield a combination of medium-power attacks. In this case it needs two types which complement each other. Fighting/Ice and Ground/Ice are the only combinations which give perfect neutral coverage against the top pokemon. Fire/Ground is also worth a look - it hits every monotype for neutral damage, and 7 of the 10 most common pokemon super-effectively (only being resisted by Dragonite). But Fire STAB combined with V-create might be just too good, and mean we don't see the variety of movesets that we're after.

    How defensively bland should it be?

    If we want to avoid giving CaP2 weaknesses, we can say hello to Fire/Ground again. It's only weak to Ground and Water (though both are common).

    But perhaps we'd prefer a CaP with a mixture of fatal weaknesses and strong resistances? The ubiquitous Steel type provides just that...

    I'm really not sure where the defensive direction of this CaP should go. If we really do make it bulky, then perhaps bland is best (so the opponent can't just think "aha! I'll switch in this!". On the other hand, as Spork noted, a pokemon which potentially learns any move could make a great lure.

    The more I look at it, though, the more I like Fighting/Ice. It has key weaknesses to Fighting and Fire which will tempt potential counters (hit them with Spore! Or Counter... isn't this why we love Sketch?). Its only key resistance is to Ice, but if it's bulky enough, then that won't really matter: its task would be to stay away from the types it fears for long enough to get its job done.

    Having few resistances could actually increase its versitility, anyway, as it wouldn't automatically be pidgeonholed based on the pokemon it blocks.
  19. Metal Bagon

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    I've laways liked dragon typing. The only downside I can see to this CAP is strong (maybe to strong) STAB however, I think it has enough mayor weakness' to counter it as long as it isn't given levitate.
  20. bugmaniacbob

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    Psychic

    Perhaps you are reading this and thinking "Are you totally insane?". Others of you may cynically perceive a motive behind this proposal as "Oh, you just want this typing because we've never done it before". To a degree, this has some grains of truth in it. We have never had a Psychic-type CAP, likely due to the very few advantages it offers us in today's metagame, compared to more specialised types. It's not great offensively, it's not great defensively. I am more or less convinced that were we to have a more *focused* concept to work off - that is to say, where the end goal is primarily what we are trying to reach, not what we expect to be learning - as has been the case in the past, Psychic will never be chosen as a type when Fighting, Steel, Ground, and the like exist. However, I am similarly convinced not simply that Psychic will only ever be chosen for a CAP such as this, but that Psychic is actually one of our best options available, after giving it some thought. Let me elaborate on this.

    Psychic is neutral. It is possibly the most neutral typing in the game offensively and defensively. Common types resist it or are immune to it, and common types hit it for super effective damage. It is often laughed at for its failings. Yet this is all to our advantage for this CAP. What advantage is there in the entire game to overcome a type "weakness" than access to a near-limitless movepool? Look at Mew. A near-limitless movepool to overcome arguably poor typing and stat distribution.

    Don't think that this is simply Mew V2, however. Sketchmon is likely to be just a little bit different - we are aiming for bulky offence here, something that Mew has never really been able to accomplish despite its humongous movepool and set-up moves. For one thing, Sketchy gives us a chance to be a little bit more diverse. For example, what nice clean offensive STAB moves can we come up with? The answer seems obvious. Sketch Psystrike or Psycho Boost. For all you people worrying about how V-create and all those other nasty physical moves will be the only options used, here we have an opportunity to give special moves a perfectly viable nod over their physical counterparts. A Psychic-typing gives us the unpredictability we need in a Sketch Pokemon, so as to make greatest use of the options available.

    As for the defensive side, Psychic does give us nasty Pursuit and U-turn weaknesses, it is true. But then, Reuniclus and Celebi seem to manage all right with their lot, and it's not like we can't give it some sort of weaknesses. The important thing here, I think, is that we have a neutrality to most types - interestingly, if Psychic is chosen, then Sketchy will be the only Shell Smasher to resist Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, which will be an interesting little side-experiment to explore as well - while not too many weaknesses or resistances on either side. Five in all, if I recall correctly. A defensively neutral Pokemon is a good idea for reasons already stated - we don't want to give it too many set-up opportunities, and we don't want it to make the absolute most of any role in bulky offence - that is to say, make any set standard - if we can help it, such that its unpredictability is the key factor in its effectiveness, and by that token, Sketch as well, rather than x or y arbitrary "good move".

    Lastly, I want to end this on a rather different note to that above. I am, as I will freely admit, and you will have guessed from the above, a really rather cynical and pessimistic person. I know that it irritates people to no end both IRL and on the forums. Where am I going with this? Well, this CAP alone, I predicted that Sketch Artist would be our concept simply because it was the "populist" option. In typing discussions especially, I and many others have often remarked upon our reluctance to choose a "weaker" or less reliable typing over old favourites such as Fighting and Electric. What I'm trying to say is, I really would like to think that we have the balls to pick the less easily predictable option - one which should give us a more interesting CAP at the end, and one which isn't cast in the same mould as those that went before. Is Psychic the answer? You may not think so, but there is no denying that we have a chance to be extraordinarily creative in our choices here, in such a way that I do not think we have been since CAP concepts were introduced. We came close with Colossoil, but I think we can go one better. I hope I am right.
  21. jas61292

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    Well, I am not completely set on any individual typing, but I think there are a few major things we should consider when choosing it. As a bulky offensive Pokemon, I think it should have good neutral coverage with it's STABs, but certainly not unresisted. Something like what Flarephoenix brought up with Poison/Dragon, fits this well. It has fantastic neutral coverage thanks to Dragon alone, but loses out against any steel type in OU.This would give it direction for it's sketch move, making things like fire and fighting moves favorable choices, but without forcing them to be chosen for this Pokemon to be a threat.

    Defensively, I think having a large number of resistances would be nice, but I almost think we should shy away from types that grant immunities. Being incredibly unpredictable is great, but with such unpredictability, having the ability to net free turns and force switches on choiced Pokmeon would only serve to make it even more powerful. Once again, Poison/Dragon is a nice example here, as it has plenty of resistances, but lacks any immunity to direct attacks.

    That being said, I think it would be a good idea for CAP 2 to have a double weakness to something. Even if it is very unpredictable, such a weakness would let it have definite counters. I don't think it has to be a crippling double weakness such as Rock, but even a double weakness to a less used type would be sufficient to keep it counterable.

    I don't have any type combos thought up currently that fit everything I have thought of, but I will post again if I come up with one.
  22. Spork

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    I would like to again reaffirm that neutral coverage in its STABs is highly important in order for the CAP to see equal use as an all-out attacker, boosting sweeper, or supporting mon. For this reason I would like to post against Grass, in any form. It's a lovely typing that needs more appreciation, but Grass's terrible offensive coverage means it'll never be used as a set-up sweeper. Grass needs at least two coverage moveslots to ensure that it can function in a sweeper role - so, are we going to give it these moves on top of Sketch? The only answer I can envision to that is no. The only way grass would work as a set-up sweeper is if we gave it Grass-STAB, a great secondary STAB, and Hidden Power, but that rules out wholly physically attacking sets. Chose Grass, and you'll be doomed to use V-Create or Spore on every set.

    I know I'm being presumptive and overly-dramatic, but the general gist is that Grass's neutral coverage is so terrible that I don;t think it can possibly work in a balanced way.

    There's a couple typings I'd like to throw support out for now. The first, though I'm wary of it, is Water alongside Normal or Dragon. In terms of neutral coverage, it's pretty much perfect, but certainly has its counters (Ferro) that would encourage the use of diverse sets. One of the best appeals of this typing is its defensive potential. However, I can easily envision a Water type with boosting moves and endless coverage options just being a regular Drizzlewhore - does it limit the options of a poke if we're demanding weather be used alongside it?

    The second type I'd like to throw support for is Electric, in tandem with either Normal, Dragon, or Psychic. All three offer great, though far from perfect, neutral coverage with STABs alone. Electric is also a relatively unexplored type. Defensively, Electric has few weaknesses, which lends itself to support or more defensive roles fairly well. CAP2 can also make use of many interesting Sketch attacking moves choices alongside Electric. The primary thing about Electric, however, is its neutral coverage, hitting few things SE and few things NVE, allowing us to really play with Sketch.

    As a final note, I'd like to say that I somewhat support a lot of the Dragon talk generally, as it has nice neutral coverage, even if the secondary STAB prevents it from touching steels. Having Steels be a stop to any boosting CAP set isn't a huge problem, as there's still Hidden Power and Mag, and Dragon/defensive type would make use of attacking Sketch moves just as well. Pure Dragon could even be a decent idea. I would, however, like to speak out against Dragon/Fire, Dragon/Fighting, and Dragon/Ground. Just no.

    I'm not 100% enthusiastic about either of my choices, but I think choosing an unremarkable, balanced typing is significantly more important than choosing some crazy unbalanced niche typing, cough grass.
  23. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Apparently I haven't narrowed down the types as much as I thought...

    Fire may not be a good type to use for STAB, but if it can be a bit encouraged for a Sketch move, that may help the concept a lot. Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Ground, Grass and Psychic all have STABs that pair pretty well with a Sketched Fire-type move like Sacred Fire. Poison sticks out to me as the best complementary type for defensive purposes because of my previous post as well as the fact that it isn't weak against Stealth Rock, which would be pretty lol for an intended defensive type.
  24. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    I feel that one of the most underrated uses of Sketch is to provide excellent coverage to supplement an already useful STAB--it would allow CAP2 to use its most dangerous weapons, while leaving other options available and not overwhelming the metagame. This would seem to me to strongly suggest that this CAP only really needs one strong offensive STAB (though two would obviously not hurt), and that it should be an offensive STAB that is covered well by the type with the best Sketch options.

    I believe that the offensive STAB that best fits that description is Grass--Fire is the type with the best offensive moves, hands down, from Blue Flare to Sacred Fire. Grass has the benefit of being a nasty offensive type against both Sand and Rain, and having strong Fire support means it will do much better against both Sun teams and Steels, the usual bane of Grass types. What is more, there is also Seed Flare to be Sketched, should CAP2 be Specially oriented.

    With only one offensive STAB really necessary, the other type could easily be used to make CAP2 more defensive, and thus more practically bulky. By taking the one offensive STAB/one defensive STAB approach, CAP2 could gain the capacity to effectively run both slower, defense boosting or status-based sets or faster, speed-and-offense boosting sets.

    The best defensive types to pair with Grass, I feel, are Steel or Ghost. Either one negates the Bug weakness of Grass; each introduces new resistances or immunities for CAP2 to switch in on, while neither negates Grass' key resistances to Water and Electric. Pursuit is almost a non-factor for a Grass Pokemon with access to strong Fire moves, so Grass typing helps Ghost significantly. Grass/Steel typing is a known quantity in terms of how useful it is, but naturally CAP2 would play very, very differently from Ferrothorn from a role standpoint (as different as Steelix and Excadrill).

    I'm a little torn as to which combination to actually endorse, so I thought I would bring it up for discussion. So then,

    Grass/Steel

    OR

    Grass/Ghost
  25. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I'm really curious why anyone would suggest Normal / Ghost seriously. Spinblocking is totally irrelevant to CAP 2, and neither has a really useful offensive STAB. Ghost is okay standalone, perhaps with something else as a stronger STAB (like Grass), but Normal really adds nothing to the equation. Those three immunities to Normal, Ghost, and Fighting really don't do anything for CAP 2 either, as nothing short of Gengar actually uses those as the primary mode of attack (Scrafty and Lucario use Fighting / Dark, which ravages the Normal / Ghost typing). With Normal / Ghost really posing no legitimate offensive threat, and Normal arguably doing nothing at all, I can't help but wonder why it would be a serious suggestion outside of flavor.
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