CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Libelldra]

I'm going to agree with those that said Poison type, as its terrible STAB coverage would be able to balance the wide variety of potential moves, while not making it terrible defensively at the same time, giving it that beautiful fighting/bug resist. Ground and Psychic would be problematic, but would at the same time give it nice synergy with a few other pokemon.

 

[DarkSlay]

Oh also, I really think the Electric-type might be worth looking into here. I haven't seen any really convincing posts yet, but I think Electric typing as the attacking STAB with something else for the defensive might be really nice. Electric / Poison compounds the Ground-type weakness (Don't pray for Levitate), but is a bit interesting. Some discussion there might be worth having!

Surely.

This CAP gives us a lot of different directions in which to go, but if we're looking for a Pokemon that has a mix of an offensive typing and a defensive typing, I think we should look no further than Poison / Electric.

Now, some of the first reactions to this might be in the ballpark of "But DarkSlay, that's 4x weak to Ground! Whatever shall we do?". That's true, it's 4x weak to a Ground move. However, is that really a bad thing in this metagame? Heatran is probably our best example of what happens with 4x Ground weak Pokemon, and Heatran has even more weaknesses than Poison / Electric does. Yet, weaknesses allow for good team synergy, and something like a 4x weakness is one of the best ways to force your opponent to react. I agree with Dusk in saying that you shouldn't rely on Levitate getting through either. I think this CAP can definitely benefit from a limited number, but highly concentrated, weaknesses, much like Heatran can.

Now, onto why this is a good typing. I'll tackle the typing individually, starting with the offensive based Electric. Electric typing is a very good offensive STAB to have. It hits Water and Flying types super effectively, a relatively short but important list. Grass, Electric, and Dragon types resist it, while Ground is immune to it. That's also a relatively short list, with Grass (especially), Electric, and Dragon actually being covered with the other STAB move (if anyone actually cares to use it). It has a good amount of high powered attacks that can be Sketched, but not to the extent of V-Create or Sacred Fire. Examples would be Volt Tackle, Bolt Strike, Fusion Bolt, and others. It's generally a neutral offensive typing, striking down 13 of the 17 types for neutral or greater damage. At the same time, it doesn't boast a lot of type resistances to the STAB, making it a safe offensive option. Definitely a boon for this concept.

On the defensive side, we have Poison. It doesn't hit much offensively, so don't mind that. Defensively, though, it resists some pretty potent types, including Fighting, Grass, and Bug (as well as Poison). It is only weak to Ground and Psychic. A few key resistances and a few key weaknesses. Fighting type resistance is really nice especially, as is a nice U-Turn resistance to prevent scouting (coupled with a Volt Turn resistance when combined with Electric). Electric also adds Flying and Steel resistances, which is nice. Don't forget the immunity to Toxic and absorption of TSpikes. That's pretty neat if we want CAP to have an offensively bulky build.

I think this typing is perfect for this project. It provides us with critical resistances, critical weaknesses, and a good, semi-neutral coverage scheme for a good offensively bulky Pokemon.

Other ideas I can support are Poison / Grass (still don't think it's inferior to Ghost/Grass for many reasons including that Dark weakness), Poison / Dragon, and slight nods to Electric / Psychic and Ghost / Grass. Really don't like being Dark weak personally, though.

EDIT: Really, really liking the idea of Grass / Electric. Very few downsides, and actually combined brings two somewhat neutral offensive types together to form a decent defensive unit. I might support this over Poison / Electric, but both are very viable.

 

[Terrador]

I'd like to be another voice in support of Grass/Ghost; both Grass and Ghost have fantastic neutral coverage, but admittedly poor Super Effective coverage. Furthermore, both typings generally bring at least one or two respectable support moves "along for the ride" for any Pokemon with the typing, making Sketch more flexible. As far as defenses go, it holds a small but useful slew of resistances, particularly to Water, Ground, and Electric, thereby carving out a useful niche with its defensive typing. Finally, these types tend not to have particularly good coverage moves, thereby requiring CAP 2 to devote its Sketch to a specific move if it wishes to fare well against some of the several Pokemon that are either too "tanky" (for lack of a better word) to defeat with neutral STABs or resistant to both STABs. As a final aside, Grass/Ghost honestly makes the best sense flavor-wise of the dominant types in contention (perhaps second only to Normal/Ghost).

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm going to go out on limb here a little bit with some wackier ideas. I've made a strong presentation for Normal/Ghost, but I think there's a few more things we can look at.

Electric/Rock

Sure, call this crazy if you want. Fighting, Ground(4x), Water, and Grass weaknesses are not the best things to be toting around. That being said, this does a fantastic job in supplying offensive pressure. Pokemon that resist the Electric/Rock combination are mostly restricted to Ground types, most of which can't deal with Ice Beam, and Excadrill is gone now so all that's left is really Gastrodon. As far as resistances, it has Normal, Fire, Electric, Flying (4x), and Poison, with Steel being neutral. When you consider all options, it also has excellent physical STAB (Bolt Strike/Volt Tackle/Wild Charge/Head Smash/Stone Edge), and the fact Sketch can fetch Tail Glow means even Power Gem has a place, or dare I say it Weather Ball in Sandstorm, in which the mon gets a SpD boost.

It's definitely a bit risky and esoteric, but considering Electric/Rock by themselves cover so much, and Electric threatens one of the types (Water) that might exploit Rock, its more balanced than it initially appears.

Electric/Grass

Another more esoteric type, this makes electric the offensive type and couples it with grass. Effectively this exchanges Ground and Flying weaknesses of either type for neutral, and retains the grass, water and electric (enhanced to 4x) resistances, adding Steel. While both types mutilate Water Pokemon, otherwise they cover different threats, and allow CAP 2 to cover a fair amount between its STAB attacks. It also functions quite well in Rain, resisting Water attacks and using STAB Thunder.

 

[Mr.Pooh31]

I think it would be cool to do a Fighting/Psychic Pokemon for this CAP.
This type could be very potent since it has only 2 weakness to Flying and Ghost. It also is neutral to Stealth Rocks giving it more chances to switch in. Defensively it could also counter the many Fighting type attacks going around right now while still being able to get Dark types.
Offensively this STAB has good coverage. Again it can pick on the many Fighting, Steel and Dark types that are in the metagame.
This typing does have its weakness though as bulky or very fast ghosts can survive or outspeed a hit and then threaten back. Also, bulky Psychics could give it problems.
But I believe Sketch can really help get rid of these weaknesses and make a very strong Pokemon in this meta.

 

[Spenstar]

Psychic-Poison

There are two main reasons why I'm going for Psychic-Poison. One, they don't have the best offensive synergy, but they get by, leave plenty of room for sketch, and both are also good defensive types.

The other reason why is that Psychic is the only type that has completely evaded every single one of our CAPs and we haven't done poison since Fidgit. We've done many, many fighting types, water types, ghosts, electric types, et cetera, I think it's time these oft-overlooked types got their due.

 

[Bork]

I really like the Grass/Ghost idea. Its good defensively, but still has its issues (Fire and Ice weaknesses) which keeps it from being to good. But my favorite part about it is the synergy of both types with fire moves, which are the most likely choices for this pokemon when selecting an attacking move with Sketch. Grass STAB/Sacred Fire/Hex/filler is a great example of move synergy. Grass/Fire is very good coverage, and Hex takes advantage of Sacred Fire's secondary ability. Grass/Ghost also offers good, but not amazing moves on both sides of the spectrum to use with Stat-up moves. On the special side, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, and Energy Ball are all solid options but none are overpowering on a Tail Glow abuser while the physical side has Shadow Claw, Leaf Blade, and Power Whip. Of those, only Leaf Blade really falls into the excellent Stab category with Thunderbolt and Earthquake. I think this helps balance the ability to use Tail Glow and Shell Smash. Overall, I think that Grass/Ghost has an array of pluses that are very advantageous to the concept and its bad aspects are likewise good balancing factors to this pokemon.

 

[Smith]

I really like Grass / Poison. Defensively, it accomplishes some good things. It has a very definitive set of resistances, and very useful ones at that to the likes of Water and Fighting. It is immune to Poison, and absorbs toxic spikes, and isn't SR weak. Of course, it really doesn't have a lot of good weaknesses and no quad weaknesses, which kind of worries me as I want this CAP to be as balanced as possible. That said, offensively, this STAB combination forces the choice between a coverage move (cough cough sacred fire) or a boosting move pretty well, since Grass / Poison STAB isn't breaking the metagame anytime soon but hopefully this CAP would lack the power to break through the whole metagame without boosts. It could function pretty effectively as a stall breaker thanks to Leech Seed and Poison typing, or a late game cleaner. That said Poison / Dragon is also really sexy (and would have AWESOME art (oh and I've secretly always wanted Game Freak to release a Poison/Dragon mon)).

 

[MektarTheOverlord]

I can't really add that much new info here, but I agree that Poison is the best route to take for CAP2. It's the worst offensive type in the game (Steel might be worse, but the resistances would be too OP on this thing), which will force the Pokemon to Sketch an attack move over Spore, etc.; problably one that nails either Psychic Or Ground for SE damage. FlarePheonix also has a good point in that the 'mon needs a Fighting resist to succeed in a metagame filled with Mach Punch. I also feel that adding a second type would just complicate or break the CAP, so I'll support MONO-POISON as its typing.

 

[capefeather]

OK, how about Psychic/Ground? There are quite a few ways in which this could work:

1. Psychic is decent as a specially offensive type, while Ground is a great physically offensive type. There's also the idea of using Psystrike or boosted Psyshock (or boosted Psystrike, even).

2. Both also have their uses defensively. Collectively, the typing has five resistances, which isn't too bad at all. The Fighting and Rock resistances and the Electric immunity really play into the possible success of this typing. This means that the offensive / defensive typing theme is still going on here.

3. Psychic also encourages the use of semi-utility coverage moves like Sacred Fire to deal with Tyranitar. Either that or go physical Ground to lure it in.

It will probably be walled by Lati@s, but oh, well.

 

[canno]

How about Steel/Bug?
(Italics represent x4 weakness/resistance)

Immune to:
Poison

Resistances:
Grass
Bug
Dark
Dragon
Ghost
Ice
Normal
Psychic
Steel
Ghost
Normal
Weaknesses:
Fire
Neutral to:
Electric
Fighting
Flying
Ground
Rock
Water

Defensively, It's decent. While it does cover most of the types, it doesn't cover most of the main offensive types, as Fighting, Electric, Ground, Rock hit it neutrally, and a 4x weakness to Fire. This means it should get a good switch-in normally, but since it doesn't resist main offensive types, he's most likely going to be hit by neutral attacks.

Offensively, Bug and Steel-type actually have decent neutral coverage. The only thing that resist the coverage is Steel and Fire. Everything else can be hit neutrally, however, almost everything else IS hit neutrally. It only hits a small amount super effectively. Only Dark, Ice, Rock, Psychic, and Grass are hit super effectively, and only Rock, Dark, and Psychic matter, as Grass-types are uncommon and Ice-types are fragile as hell anyways. It's also immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes, which is nice.

 

[RotationalBasis]

Personally, I'm in favour of Normal/Ghost or just straight Normal. I won't go into my personal motivations as it would be mostly a rehash of previous posts.

What I would like to do is compare the Normal and Dragon types, which seem to be two strong candidates. Offensively, they are actually rather similar - both are based on broad neutral coverage. Dragon hits all of the common types for neutral damage, with one SE (against itself, a relatively rare type), and one resist (Steel, a resistance it shares with Normal types). From this perspective, Normal seems exactly like a nerfed version of Dragon, having one less SE hit (for a grand total of zero), and two extra resists. Where normal trumps dragon, however, is in its STAB movepool. Sketching moves like Extremespeed and Explosion, as well as Facade, Flail and Double Edge, even Spike Cannon and Body Slam give it delicious choice and sometimes frightening power. However, those couple of extra resists mean that this isn't an uncontrollable power. I doubt we'd hesitate to give a Normal/Ghost Pokemon the common TM move Return, because even with an additional Ghost STAB - which would only be half decent if you sketched Shadow Force - you'd still be walled by Rocks and Steels. On the other hand, the Dragon move with the closest power to Return is actually Spacial Rend, and the thought of having Sketch Shell Smash and naturally learned Spacial Rend on the same Pokemon is another thing entirely. That's why I feel Normal gives us a little more leeway with the natural movepool and stats of the Pokemon, which is a good thing because we all know that if the stats are too low or the movepool too narrow, we railroad CAPmon into playing only a few limited roles.

Oh and an interesting fact, against Steel Pokes Normal/Ghost comes out slightly better than Dragon/Poison, as steel resists Normal, Ghost and Dragon equally but is immune to Poison. Not that you wouldn't be packing Brick Break or Flamethrower for such an occasion, either way.

 

[WeatherEffectRain]

@Rising_Dusk's dislike of Water: Honestly, I don't understand this. You said yourself that it's a good defensive and offensive typing, let alone paired with another: you pointed out Toed, which can be dealed with, but you failed to state anything other or look into it's merits. I'll go into a Pro-Con basis of Water/N-A and Water/Steel, if it makes my point a bit more clear.

Water/N-A
Pro:
-It's a good Offensive type, hitting neutral for a large portion of the metagame
-It's a good defensive type, allowing for resistances to common Fire and Water-type moves, as well as Bullet Punch from Scizor or any of those types.
-Water is a neutral type so much so that any move sketched will have a different outcome (Ex: Physical/Special Sweeper, Staller, Annoyer, Etc all by one move)
-It's got two common weaknesses capable of balancing it out

Con:
-Politoed would ally with it, unless it is unsatisfactory in such (Via something either later in the process or being outclassed in a role while under Rain)(Yes, I can only think of one Con, if you could elaborate moreso would be appreciated)

Water/Steel(My typing)
Pro:
-Water is a good Offensive type, hitting neutral for a large portion of the metagame
-Water AND Steel are both good defensive types, allowing for resistances to common Dragon, Ghost, Dark, Bug and Water-type moves, as well as x4 Bullet Punch from Scizor or any of those types.
-Water is a neutral type so much so that any move sketched will have a different outcome, and when paired with Steel can become such moreso.
-It's got a handful of common weaknesses capable of balancing it out if it gets out of hand.
-With a Steel Typing, it may find itself being more Wall-Like in some scenarios, or as a specific target... taker-outer.

Con:
-Politoed would ally with it, unless it is unsatisfactory in such (Via something either later in the process or being outclassed in a role while under Rain)(Why, yes, this is it again. I'd LOVE to see some comment towards the Con side if it is such a bad thing.)

Not tryign to throw stones here, but Water isn't an atrocious type just because of Politoed. IMHO, Water would help the CAP greatly.

It can also be called the Water Color Pokemon ^-^

 

[Birkal]

As a point of reference, I'd like to argue that x4 weaknesses are undesirable on a bulky offensive Pokemon. While this may seem obvious, there are a few points to consider with this proposition. Pokemon with that great of a weakness are often easily forced out when faced with a threat that carries a move that abuses that weakness. This would essentially discourage CAP2 from using set-up moves, as it would be easily forced out. Secondly, x4 weaknesses limit the amount of teammates that you can utilize. Sure, Heatran's weakness to Ground is workable, but you'd better be running a Flying-type or Levitate-mon on your team. By giving that weakness to CAP2, we could easily be gimping it. I'm specifically calling out x4 weakness to Bug and Ice, which are rampant in today's metagame. Furthermore, if we wanted to take CAP2 in a supportive direction with its Sketch move, it would always run the risk of switching into it's Achilles tendon and being rendered useless the whole match.

I'd like to put my full weight behind Ghost / Grass right now. But instead of reiterating what others have posted, I'd like to discuss why this typing gives CAP2 great flexibility in terms of its Sketch move. On the offense, Ghost and Grass gets pretty darn good coverage in today's metagame and can hit hard with a third coverage move incorporated with Sketch and Hidden Power. On a boosting sweeper course, this combination allows for some easy switch ins on common moves in OU, namely Electric, Water, Grass, Fighting, and Normal. It could easily begin setting up while the opponent is forced to switch. In terms of defensive playstyles, Grass-typing allows for some great moves like Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Aromatherapy, while packing some good resistances. And finally, support is HUGELY benefited by Ghost / Grass (something I don't see in Dragon / Poison). With access to Will-O-Wisp and spinblocking, it can take out heavy hitters, set up hazards, and keep them up by spinblocking. I hope this enlightens why so many users are behind Ghost / Grass typing. Keep the conversation going guys =D!

 

[ToastTyrant13]

Electric/Grass

Another more esoteric type, this makes electric the offensive type and couples it with grass. Effectively this exchanges Ground and Flying weaknesses of either type for neutral, and retains the grass, water and electric (enhanced to 4x) resistances, adding Steel. While both types mutilate Water Pokemon, otherwise they cover different threats, and allow CAP 2 to cover a fair amount between its STAB attacks. It also functions quite well in Rain, resisting Water attacks and using STAB Thunder.

pretty much 100% agreeing with this right here


Edit: As a side note, while the idea of Grass / Ghost is a nice idea as well, a Pursuit weakness isn't particularly pleasant for switching in and out of incoming attacks. :/

 

[Bork]

As a point of reference, I'd like to argue that x4 weaknesses are undesirable on a bulky offensive Pokemon.

I agree with you on typing, but this point just irks me the wrong way... Ferrothorn, Forretress, Heatran, Gastrodon, Swampert, Quagsire, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite and Gyarados all have x4 weaknesses, and all to pretty common types. While a x4 weakness isn't desirable, its quite difficult to find a great typing without some sort of massive weakness. I think that in today's metagame of hard hitters, a x4 weakness isn't much more crippling than a x2 one. When looking at the above lot of good to great (or even uber in Garchomp's case) pokemon, I think a paucity of overall weaknesses and many resistances is better than avoiding x4 weaknesses overall.

While I don't see this applying to my personal argument for Grass/Ghost as it has no x4 weakness, but throwing out a massive group of otherwise solid typings for faulty logic is, in my opinion, a massive oversight. Aside from Rock no x4 weakness is crippling given the right assortment of stats, moves and abilities, and even now Volcarona is proving that a x4 rock weakness isn't suicide. This is a more general post to warn against overarching statements--especially those that are essentially proven false.

 

[shinyskarmory]

Normal/Ghost
Offense:
x2 Psychic
x2 Ghost (with ghost)
x0.25 Steel
x0.5 Rock

Defense:
x0 Normal
x0 Ghost
x0 Fighting
x0.5 Bug
x0.5 Poison
x2 Dark

In case you were interested.

 

[Birkal]

I agree with you on typing, but this point just irks me the wrong way... Ferrothorn, Forretress, Heatran, Gastrodon, Swampert, Quagsire, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite and Gyarados all have x4 weaknesses, and all to pretty common types. While a x4 weakness isn't desirable, its quite difficult to find a great typing without some sort of massive weakness. I think that in today's metagame of hard hitters, a x4 weakness isn't much more crippling than a x2 one. When looking at the above lot of good to great (or even uber in Garchomp's case) pokemon, I think a paucity of overall weaknesses and many resistances is better than avoiding x4 weaknesses overall.

While I don't see this applying to my personal argument for Grass/Ghost as it has no x4 weakness, but throwing out a massive group of otherwise solid typings for faulty logic is, in my opinion, a massive oversight. Aside from Rock no x4 weakness is crippling given the right assortment of stats, moves and abilities, and even now Volcarona is proving that a x4 rock weakness isn't suicide. This is a more general post to warn against overarching statements--especially those that are essentially proven false.

Sorry if my post was construed that way; there are indeed many Pokemon who do very well with 4x weaknesses. However, we are talking bulky offense here, and many bulky offensive Pokemon do significantly better without that kind of pressure, namely Rotom-W, Politoed, Scrafty, Reuniclus, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Latios, Latias, Metagross, Metagross, Venusaur, and to a lesser extent Mienshao (Regenerator), Haxorus (good typing), and Alakazam (Focus Sash). While sure, there are bulky offensive threats that exist with x4 weaknesses (Gyarados, Tyranitar, Scizor), that weakness often forces them out, which is undesirable on CAP2, which might also be trying to set up hazards, boost for a sweep, play defense, or do any number of things. I'm not saying that we should disregard any type that has a x4 weakness, I am merely suggesting we try to avoid it if possible.

Edit: Also, your point about x4 weaknesses being not significantly worse that x2 weaknesses is pretty far from the truth, in my opinion. It's what allows Ferrothorn to take a Fighting-type attack if needed, Gliscor a physical Water-type attack, or Tyranitar against a Grass-attack. But set them up against Fire, Ice, and Fighting respectively, and there's likely to be OHKO'd unless they've taken extra measures of preservation (Chople Berry / Rain support).

 

[sax king]

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This hasn't been brought up yet, but I would strongly support an Electric/Steel type mon. The mon has so many different possibilities. This allows the pokemon to take several different routes. With its many resistances, it can be bulky enough just by sheer typing, allowing us to focus on other stats as well. From an offensive standpoint, it can work specially and physically. It can use Volt Switch to scout, Wild Charge and Meteor Mash/Iron Head for physical damage, and Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon for special damage. On top of that, it can use sketch to get a move like Ice Beam which rounds out its coverage nicely. Fortunately, it won't be too overpowering because its STAB combo isn't that great. Steel typing is poor offensively, and with Electric typing, we need to run Ice Beam, which is a non-STAB move with just neutral coverage. It also restricts it from having moves too powerful for its own good. With a Fire-type, we might see overpowered V-Creates and with a Water type we would see Water Spout spam. But the best our pokemon can do is thunder, and only in the rain. Or, it can take a more supporting role and use its typing to allow it to easily set up spikes.

I posted this before when people weren't talking about electric types, but this might want some more attention.

Anyway, Electric is definitely the way to go. It has only one weakness and some usable resistances (although a dual-typing would be preferable), which allows it to be defensive if it wants. It is a good attacking type all around which makes it a good pokemon to use offensively. It also makes certain pokemon want to think their sketch choices carefully. For example, if this thing takes the special route, it has to make choices regarding its sketch. It can choose Ice Beam for great, strong coverage, but then it misses out on moves like Quiver Dance and Tail Glow. So it really requires players to play strategically and make choices. On the physical side, it can take advantage of moves like Fusion Bolt, as few other pokemon can take advantage of this Electric-type Earthquake.

It is also very-much an anti-metagame type. With Excadrill gone, Rain teams are sprouting up more and more. Politoeds, Tentacruels, and Starmies are everywhere. But Electric can help take out the popular Water types.

That's why I'm throwing all of my support behind a Electric/Steel mon. It has bulk due to its resistances, so stat-wise it doesn't need too much defensive investment. Already, due to its amazing resistances, it can fill the bulky offense roll that is popular. However, it still totes the Ground, Fire, and Fighting weaknesses to keep it in check (though there always is Heatproof and Levitate....). The added steel typing doesn't really help it too much offensively, as Steel STAB doesn't really do much, ensuring that it isn't overpowered and spamming its STAB moves. However, as filler moves, it can use moves like Flash Cannon and Iron Head (/Meteor Mash/Gear Grind). All in all, an Electric/Steel mon is just what we need. It has resistances and natural bulk with its typing, and its offensively capable, but not overpowered in either category.

I also strongly support Deck Knight's Rock/Electric type.

EDIT:
I also really don't want a poison type. I feel like most people want a poison type because they feel like the type is under-represented in OU, which is true, but not every CAP needs to be Poison type. I want there to be a Poison type CAP, but the Sketch concept is so unique, and I would rather save the Poison love for another CAP that calls for it more.

 

[verbatim]

Seeing as were going for a bulky offensive pokemon (stat-wise) that can fulfill a multitude of roles, I propose the tying ghost/dark.

Ghost/dark allows one to play the role of a wall with its lack of resistances and access to reliable recovery (sketch).

The lack of all-encompassing stabs forces the player to choose its sketch move carefully, do I use a boosting move and make do with dark/ghost's pitiful coverage, or do I add a third move to increase my coverage.

As a third option, ghost/dark's bulk combined with its numerous switch in opportunities allows it to take the role of a hazard layer.

 

[jas61292]

As a point of reference, I'd like to argue that x4 weaknesses are undesirable on a bulky offensive Pokemon. While this may seem obvious, there are a few points to consider with this proposition. Pokemon with that great of a weakness are often easily forced out when faced with a threat that carries a move that abuses that weakness. This would essentially discourage CAP2 from using set-up moves, as it would be easily forced out. Secondly, x4 weaknesses limit the amount of teammates that you can utilize. Sure, Heatran's weakness to Ground is workable, but you'd better be running a Flying-type or Levitate-mon on your team. By giving that weakness to CAP2, we could easily be gimping it. I'm specifically calling out x4 weakness to Bug and Ice, which are rampant in today's metagame. Furthermore, if we wanted to take CAP2 in a supportive direction with its Sketch move, it would always run the risk of switching into it's Achilles tendon and being rendered useless the whole match.

While in general this is a good point, I would disagree for this specific Pokemon. In fact, I would say that a x4 weakness IS desirable on CAP2. The fact is, with Sketch, CAP2 is going to be incredibly unpredictable, and no matter how good a counter might seem, there is always a chance it could be beaten by the right move. By having a crippling weakness, it would allow CAP2 to have a counter in faster Pokemon that can utilize moves of that type. While it doesn't really matter to me which type it is, having this weakness may be key to keeping CAP2 under control.

On a different note, I really like Deck_Knights suggestion of Rock/Electric. It has nice offensive typing, some cool resistances, and the x4 weakness that I think is good.

 

[ssbbm]

I think that, at this point in time, we should consider as to how to not overpower CAP 2. Think about it; CAP 2 has access to Shell Smash, Spore, Quiver Dance, Shift Gear, and so many more options. How do we make sure then, that CAP 2 will not become an Thundurus-esque sweeper?

The answer is simple: make CAP 2 vulnerable to priority moves. Look at all of the Shell-Smashers; the only things them back from becoming completely broken are either a) their weaknesses to priority, b) their initial frailness (or if they become bulky, they lose strength), and c) their low speed that makes them not fast enough after a Shell Smash.

b) is immediately ruled out for the reason that CAP 2 is automatically classified as "Bulky Offense"; therefore, we can assume that they are unable to be frail.

Therefore, to make sure CAP 2 is not broken, we need to have either a) or c) fulfilled. I cannot know whether c) will be fulfilled, as the stat spreads have not yet come in; this means that for the sake of balance, I assume that we must have a).

If we have a weakness to priority, then there are 2 possible types: Rock or Ice.

If we don't support Rock or Ice, then we must have a typing that has bad STABs, so that the Pokemon will be unable to sweep. I have a few calcs that assuming 100/100 offenses and LO and 252+/252+ (yes, that's impossible but this is a "worst case scenario) of the Pokemon that can avoid 2HKOes from the CAP 2 of each type assuming Return, a STAB move, and a Hidden Power.

Normal

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Forretress (Physically Defensive)	HP Ghost	34.18 - 40.39%	Frustration	33.05 - 38.98%
Skarmory (Physically Defensive)	HP Ghost	36.22 - 42.81%	Frustration	34.13 - 40.11%
Ferrothorn (Standard)	Frustration	37.5 - 44.31%	HP Ghost	19.6 - 23.01%
Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	Frustration	40.6 - 47.96%	HP Ghost	32.74 - 38.57%
Forretress (Specially Defensive)	Frustration	41.52 - 49.15%	HP Ghost	25.14 - 29.66%

Fire

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Dragonite (Parashuffler) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	Fire Blast	21.76 - 25.64%
Dragonite (Tank) [Multiscale]	Frustration	36.41 - 43%	Fire Blast	30.87 - 36.41%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	Fire Blast	27.66 - 32.74%
Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	Fire Blast	41.62 - 48.98%	HP Fighting	32.74 - 38.57%
Dragonite (Offensive Dragon Dance) [Multiscale]	Frustration	42.72 - 50.46%	Fire Blast	35.91 - 42.41%
Tyranitar (Specially Defensive) [Chople Berry] [Sand Stream]	HP Fighting	43.56 - 51.48%	Frustration	29.95 - 35.39%
Milotic (OU RestTalk) [Marvel Scale]	Fire Blast	43.65 - 51.52%	Frustration	41.62 - 48.98%
Tyranitar (Standard) [Chople Berry] [Sand Stream]	HP Fighting	45.54 - 53.96%	Frustration	29.95 - 35.39%
Milotic (OU Physically Defensive) [Marvel Scale]	Fire Blast	48.73 - 57.36%	HP Fighting	37.81 - 44.67%

Water

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Jellicent (Utility Counter) [Water Absorb]	Hydro Pump	0 - 0%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Jellicent (Choice Specs)	Hydro Pump	0 - 0%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Dragonite (Bulky Dragon Dance) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	Hydro Pump	30.31 - 35.75%
Dragonite (Tank) [Multiscale]	Frustration	36.41 - 43%	Hydro Pump	30.87 - 36.41%

Electric

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Target	Best Move	Damage	Next Best	Damage
Golurk (OU Choice Band)	Thunderbolt	0 - 0%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Golurk (OU SubPunch)	Thunderbolt	0 - 0%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Golurk (OU Rock Polish)	Thunderbolt	0 - 0%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	HP Fighting	32.74 - 38.57%	Frustration	27.15 - 31.97%
Dragonite (Parashuffler) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	Thunderbolt	34.19 - 40.41%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	HP Fighting	21.57 - 25.63%

Flying

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Jirachi (Specially Defensive)	HP Fighting	33.16 - 39.1%	Frustration	32.67 - 38.61%
Dragonite (Parashuffler) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	HP Flying	25.64 - 30.31%
Dragonite (Tank) [Multiscale]	Frustration	36.41 - 43%	HP Flying	35.62 - 42.21%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	HP Flying	32.23 - 38.32%
Bronzong (Tank)	HP Fighting	39.64 - 46.74%	Frustration	31.95 - 37.86%
Dusclops (OU Defensive) [Eviolite]	HP Flying	40.49 - 47.88%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%

Grass

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Jirachi (Specially Defensive)	HP Fighting	33.16 - 39.1%	Frustration	32.67 - 38.61%
Dragonite (Bulky Dragon Dance) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	HP Fighting	11.65 - 13.73%
Cofagrigus (OU Calm Mind)	Seed Bomb	35.93 - 42.5%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Dragonite (Tank) [Multiscale]	Frustration	36.41 - 43%	HP Fighting	11.87 - 13.98%
Dusclops (OU Defensive) [Eviolite]	Seed Bomb	36.61 - 43.3%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Cresselia (OU Support)	Frustration	37.83 - 44.59%	Seed Bomb	29.72 - 35.13%
Cofagrigus (OU Bulky Ghost)	Seed Bomb	38.75 - 45.62%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Bronzong (Tank)	HP Fighting	39.64 - 46.74%	Frustration	31.95 - 37.86%
Chandelure (OU Choice Specs)	Seed Bomb	40.5 - 47.67%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Cresselia (OU Dual Screens Support)	Frustration	40.76 - 48.19%	Seed Bomb	32.2 - 38.06%
Dusknoir (OU Gravity)	Seed Bomb	41.15 - 48.63%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Dusknoir (OU Tank)	Seed Bomb	41.83 - 49.31%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Gyarados (RestTalk) [Intimidate]	Frustration	42.13 - 49.74%	Seed Bomb	32.99 - 39.08%

Ice

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Target	Best Move	Damage	Next Best	Damage
Jellicent (Utility Counter)	Ice Beam	29.28 - 34.49%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Jellicent (Choice Specs)	Ice Beam	30.72 - 36.19%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Jirachi (Specially Defensive)	HP Fighting	33.16 - 39.1%	Frustration	32.67 - 38.61%
Dusclops (OU Defensive) [Eviolite]	Ice Beam	36.61 - 43.3%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Milotic (OU Physically Defensive) [Marvel Scale]	HP Fighting	37.81 - 44.67%	Frustration	37.3 - 44.16%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	Ice Beam	29.44 - 34.51%
Bronzong (Tank)	HP Fighting	39.64 - 46.74%	Frustration	31.95 - 37.86%
Milotic (OU RestTalk) [Marvel Scale]	Frustration	41.62 - 48.98%	HP Fighting	34.01 - 40.1%

Fighting

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Dragonite (Bulky Dragon Dance) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	HP Dark	23.31 - 27.72%
Dragonite (Tank) [Multiscale]	Frustration	36.41 - 43%	HP Dark	23.74 - 28.23%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	HP Fighting	32.23 - 38.32%

Poison

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Dusclops (OU Defensive) [Eviolite]	Sludge Bomb	26.05 - 30.63%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Golurk (OU SubPunch)	Sludge Bomb	27.48 - 32.46%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Golurk (OU Choice Band)	Sludge Bomb	28.3 - 33.42%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	HP Fighting	32.74 - 38.57%	Sludge Bomb	31.21 - 37.05%
Golurk (OU Rock Polish)	Sludge Bomb	32.91 - 38.87%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Jirachi (Specially Defensive)	HP Fighting	33.16 - 39.1%	Frustration	32.67 - 38.61%
Dragonite (Parashuffler) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	Sludge Bomb	32.9 - 38.86%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	HP Fighting	21.57 - 25.63%
Bronzong (Tank)	HP Fighting	39.64 - 46.74%	Frustration	31.95 - 37.86%
Jellicent (Utility Counter)	Sludge Bomb	41.43 - 48.88%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Gengar (Substitute + Disable)	Sludge Bomb	41.98 - 49.61%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%

Ground

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Bronzong (Trick Room Support)	Frustration	27.21 - 32.24%	Stone Edge	26.62 - 31.65%
Metagross (Stealth Rock) [Air Balloon]	Frustration	28.84 - 34.06%	Stone Edge	28.29 - 33.51%
Bronzong (Dual Screens)	Frustration	31.06 - 36.68%	Stone Edge	30.47 - 35.79%
Bronzong (Tank)	Frustration	31.95 - 37.86%	Stone Edge	31.36 - 36.98%
Cobalion (OU Swords Dance) [Air Balloon]	Frustration	32.81 - 38.69%	Stone Edge	16.09 - 18.88%
Metagross (Agility) [Air Balloon]	Frustration	33.43 - 39.49%	Stone Edge	32.8 - 38.85%
Bronzong (Offensive Trick Room)	Frustration	34.31 - 40.53%	Stone Edge	33.72 - 39.64%
Cresselia (OU Support)	Frustration	37.83 - 44.59%	Stone Edge	37.16 - 43.91%
Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	Earthquake	39.59 - 46.7%	Frustration	27.15 - 31.97%

Psychic

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Spiritomb (OU Calm Mind)	HP Fighting	0 - 0%	Psychic	0 - 0%
Jirachi (Specially Defensive)	HP Fighting	33.16 - 39.1%	Frustration	32.67 - 38.61%
Dragonite (Parashuffler) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	Psychic	32.9 - 38.86%
Cresselia (OU Support)	Frustration	37.83 - 44.59%	Psychic	31.3 - 36.93%
Bronzong (Tank)	HP Fighting	39.64 - 46.74%	Frustration	31.95 - 37.86%

Bug

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Skarmory (Physically Defensive)	Frustration	22.75 - 26.64%	X-Scissor	13.17 - 15.56%
Dusclops (OU Defensive) [Eviolite]	X-Scissor	27.46 - 32.39%	HP Ground	27.11 - 32.04%
Skarmory (Specially Defensive)	Frustration	29.34 - 34.73%	X-Scissor	17.36 - 20.35%
Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	HP Ground	32.74 - 38.57%	X-Scissor	31.47 - 37.3%
Cobalion (OU Swords Dance) [Air Balloon]	Frustration	32.81 - 38.69%	X-Scissor	19.19 - 22.6%
Dragonite (Parashuffler) [Multiscale]	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%	X-Scissor	20.98 - 24.87%
Dragonite (Tank) [Multiscale]	Frustration	36.41 - 43%	X-Scissor	21.37 - 25.32%
Heatran (Offensive) [Air Balloon]	Frustration	38.69 - 45.82%	X-Scissor	22.6 - 26.93%
Gyarados (RestTalk) [Intimidate]	Frustration	42.13 - 49.74%	X-Scissor	24.61 - 29.18%

steel

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Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	HP Fighting	32.74 - 38.57%	Frustration	27.15 - 31.97%
Jellicent (Utility Counter)	Iron Head	35.73 - 42.43%	HP Fighting	0 - 0%
Milotic (OU Physically Defensive) [Marvel Scale]	HP Fighting	37.81 - 44.67%	Frustration	37.3 - 44.16%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	Iron Head	22.58 - 26.64%
Jirachi (Specially Defensive)	Iron Head	38.36 - 45.29%	HP Fighting	33.16 - 39.1%
Bronzong (Tank)	HP Fighting	39.64 - 46.74%	Iron Head	37.57 - 44.37%
Milotic (OU RestTalk) [Marvel Scale]	Frustration	41.62 - 48.98%	HP Fighting	34.01 - 40.1%
Dragonite (Bulky Dragon Dance) [Multiscale]	Iron Head	41.96 - 49.74%	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%
Gyarados (RestTalk) [Intimidate]	Frustration	42.13 - 49.74%	Iron Head	24.61 - 29.18%

dark

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Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	HP Fighting	32.74 - 38.57%	Crunch	31.47 - 37.3%
Dragonite (Bulky Dragon Dance) [Multiscale]	Crunch	41.96 - 49.74%	Frustration	35.75 - 42.22%

rock

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Quagsire (OU Physically Defensive)	HP Fighting	32.74 - 38.57%	Frustration	27.15 - 31.97%
Quagsire (OU Curse)	Frustration	38.32 - 45.17%	Stone Edge	28.17 - 33.24%

dragon (is lol so yeah no because if i put outrage instead of dpulse then nothing could escape a 2hko)

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Jirachi (Specially Defensive)	HP Fighting	33.16 - 39.1%	Frustration	32.67 - 38.61%
Bronzong (Tank)	HP Fighting	39.64 - 46.74%	Dragon Pulse	37.86 - 44.67%

you guys pick [:

also yeah i know that the stats and moves are really arbitrary but this is just to show how basically impossible it is to try and wall a +2/+2 pokemon haha (we'd have to give it something stupid like 60/60 offenses for it to not be able to sweep)

 

[bubbly]

I'm backing either Grass / Ghost or Ghost / Steel. Ghost/Grass has already been covered in this thread, but I feel that Ghost/Steel deserves a mention as being arguably the best defensive typing in the game. Those masses of resistances and immunities really come in handy for whatever role the CAP is going to play, and in particular if it wants to play a supporting role with Spikes / Rapid Spin etc. In fact, in Rain and with the ability Levitate it could be made nigh on unkillable (okay, so that's not necessarily the project aim, but it allows more flexibility in the stat spread polling and it's definitely necessary for the CAP to have moderate to strong defensive stats).
Only issue is the offensive coverage, but of course Ghost type STAB is always strong and can easily be backed up by a Fighting type coverage move (either through Sketch or otherwise).

EDIT: Also cool are Rock / Electric, Electric / Grass and Steel / Electric

 

[Birkal]

While in general this is a good point, I would disagree for this specific Pokemon. In fact, I would say that a x4 weakness IS desirable on CAP2. The fact is, with Sketch, CAP2 is going to be incredibly unpredictable, and no matter how good a counter might seem, there is always a chance it could be beaten by the right move. By having a crippling weakness, it would allow CAP2 to have a counter in faster Pokemon that can utilize moves of that type. While it doesn't really matter to me which type it is, having this weakness may be key to keeping CAP2 under control.

On a different note, I really like Deck_Knights suggestion of Rock/Electric. It has nice offensive typing, some cool resistances, and the x4 weakness that I think is good.

I would argue, however, that that one simple x4 weakness is a lot more difficult to expose on a very unpredictable Pokemon. Let's say Ferrothorn countered CAP2's STABs exceptionally well. CAP2, however, could easily be hiding away a Fire-type attack to annihilate it with and now you will have lost your CAP2 counter. With a more broad range of x2 weaknesses, CAP2 would in fact be more manageable since many opposing Pokemon could have a chance of taking it out.

Again, I'm not bashing x4 weaknesses and saying that they simply won't work on CAP2. I'm merely suggesting that since we have many great suggestions that don't require to have a x4 weakness (Dragon / Poison, Ghost / Grass, and Grass / Electric), we should focus in on those possibilities. Each one has a considerable amount of x2 weaknesses that could keep CAP2 in check while providing unique STABs and defensive opportunities.

 

[jas61292]

I would argue, however, that that one simple x4 weakness is a lot more difficult to expose on a very unpredictable Pokemon. Let's say Ferrothorn countered CAP2's STABs exceptionally well. CAP2, however, could easily be hiding away a Fire-type attack to annihilate it with and now you will have lost your CAP2 counter. With a more broad range of x2 weaknesses, CAP2 would in fact be more manageable since many opposing Pokemon could have a chance of taking it out.

Again, I'm not bashing x4 weaknesses and saying that they simply won't work on CAP2. I'm merely suggesting that since we have many great suggestions that don't require to have a x4 weakness (Dragon / Poison, Ghost / Grass, and Grass / Electric), we should focus in on those possibilities. Each one has a considerable amount of x2 weaknesses that could keep CAP2 in check while providing unique STABs and defensive opportunities.

I don't really follow this argument. I mean, yes, many x2 weaknesses also would be a good idea, but I don't see what your first paragraph is really saying. My point was exactly what you said in the first paragraph, that no matter how good the counter may seem, if CAP2 has the right move, it can beat the counter. However, if CAP2 has a x4 weakness, then suddenly Pokemon X who is faster than CAP2 and knows an attack of that type can counter CAP2 regardless of what hidden move it has. While we like to focus on making CAP2 good, making sure it can be stopped is equally important.

Of course, the problem with this is that it may make defensive sets harder. However, if the double weakness is not to one of the most common types, or is a type with common resister/immune Pokemon, then this becomes much less of a problem.