CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Rising_Dusk]

2. Hydreigon could have a Choice Scarf.

An important note I want to add to this discussion: CSHydreigon hits 486 Speed if Timid, whereas Jolly CAP 2 hits 574 Speed after a single Shift Gear assuming 252 EVs on both. This means that Choice Scarf Hydreigon cannot respond to a Shift Gear CAP 2 that has the capacity to OHKO Hydreigon. Furthermore, consider the weakest non-priority Ice-type move and what it does to the CS Hydreigon it now outspeeds:

252 Jolly Life Orb CAP 2 +1 Ice Fang vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Hydreigon: 87.7% - 103.7%

Boom. Headshot (with SR).

Now I don't want this to be the limiting factor and all, but I think that many of you are not looking at the whole picture when you're considering your stances. If Ice Fang can do this, any stronger Ice-type move maims. For the record, if you were thinking about Dragonite...

252 Jolly Life Orb CAP 2 +1 Ice Fang vs. vs. Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 168.4% - 199.4%
252 Jolly Life Orb CAP 2 +1 Ice Fang vs. vs. Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 84.2% - 99.7% (Multiscale)
252 Jolly Life Orb CAP 2 +1 Ice Fang vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 140.9% - 166.8%
252 Jolly Life Orb CAP 2 +1 Ice Fang vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 70.5% - 88.4% (Multiscale)

Nearly able to KO offensive Dragonite with the weakest non-priority physical Ice-type through Multiscale? That says a lot. Defensive Dragon Dance survives only if Multiscale remains unbroken. Don't even make me calculate Ice Punch because it gets more depressing than that. Lastly, remember that because Shift Gear is +2 Speed, CAP 2 could actually be doing everything with an Adamant nature. That makes this even more impressive number-wise.

CAP 2 is strong. +1/+2 boosters are strong. Let that be known when you qualify your stances. I think that physical Ice has proven itself controversial enough for me. I have moved Ice Fang, Ice Shard, and Ice Punch to controversial and disallowed everything else in Ice-type attacks. Note that Ice Shard is weaker than Ice Fang, and since Ice Fang barely makes KOs at +1, Ice Shard is probably not going to be that great even with a Choice Band. It'd be handy for revenging slightly weakened Dragons and Gliscor and that's about it. Still, I think this physical Ice discussion has showed how controversial it is and I'm still personally torn.

 

[Jaetheho]

Yes. as supported by my previous explanations..

allow ice fang

and allow ONLY thunderfang

edit: just saw the above calcs. only the fangs.

thunderfang is just a little short of a surefire 2HKO on skarmory.

 

[capefeather]

Yeah, erm, my bad on the Shift Gear thing. Based on that, I'd say Ice Fang and Ice Punch may have to be disallowed (especially because of Hydreigon), but maybe Ice Shard is still fine.

 

[PK Gaming]

Considering that Ice Fang and Ice Punch allow it to bypass Hydreigon (its primary check) and other Dragons, those moves should absolutely be disallowed. Ice Shard is fine due to its poor BP, i doubt it'll see any use (absolutely 0 if ExtremeSpeed is allowed). It's not like the move goes against the main concept (bulky offense) nor does it provide it any specific advantages.

Thunderbolt & Discharge also need to be moved to disallowed. Even with its meager SpA stat, this CAP can still easily 2HKO Skarmory down the line, and I don't think thats something we want just yet. The fact that its already hard checked by Skarmory is a pretty good balancing factor as is, there's no reason to let it beat Skarmory.

edit: Extreme Speed should be disallowed. It's a little too good of a move to give to this CAP, considering her low speed is one of her main drawbacks. The move is a big boon to almost any of offensive physical based set, and it lets her tear into frailer teams.

 

[uwnim]

Ice Shard should be allowed. It deals less damage to Dragonite and Hydreigon than Stone Edge and does not stop Hydreigon from checking CAP 2.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Now I will attempt to field how I feel about Electric-type moves after reading what has been proposed thus far.

Electric-type attacks, whether special or physical, afford coverage that hits every Steel-type that matters to CAP 2 for neutral damage. It, alongside one STAB, pretty much lets CAP 2 get away with crushing its typical opposition either with Banded physical blows or boosted special ones. I do not think that there is any real sell to the Electric-type coverage on CAP 2 in a way that promotes its concept, but I think that it definitely presents a level of versatility that CAP 2 should not inherently have outside of Sketch. Additionally, it gives it a move that can be used to strike at every one of its Steel responses for neutral damage (outside of Magnezone and Ferry, but they can't do anything major back anyway). The fact that the otherwise solid response in Skarmory is also shredded by Electric-type coverage is icing on the cake; I am disallowing all special Electric-type coverage. This leaves ThunderPunch and Thunder Fang. Running a few calcs...

252 Adamant Life Orb CAP 2 +1 Thunder Fang vs. 252/252 Impish Leftovers Skarmory: 49.1% - 58.1%
Impish Leftovers Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb CAP 2: 80% - 94.1%

Yeah still pretty reliable. Thunder Fang is no big deal and Brave Bird maims in response after LO recoil. Let's try ThunderPunch now.

252 Adamant Life Orb Pokemon +1 ThunderPunch vs. 252/252 Impish Leftovers Skarmory: 56.3% - 66.5%

The mighty Skarmory is 2HKOed. Granted, after this LO recoil and Skarm's BB, CAP 2 is KOed. This may or may not be relevant at all. Let's now try that ThunderPunch against some other Steels we care about like Jirachi and Heatran. (Note that I won't actually calc Jirachi since Shadow Claw is better against it than ThunderPunch anyway)

252 Adamant Life Orb CAP 2 +1 ThunderPunch vs. 248/0 Calm Leftovers Heatran: 40.8% - 48.1%
Calm Leftovers Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb CAP 2: 68.9% - 82.2%
Calm Leftovers Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb CAP 2: 103% - 122.2%

CAP 2: 0
Heatran: 1

It doesn't seem all that bad to me (or even that useful). Still, I'm wary about the coverage and the hit on Skarmory above all else. For that reason, Thunder Fang and ThunderPunch will be controversial.

 

[Deck Knight]

Man I missed a ton of this.

Power Whip is checked by its 85% Accuracy. It works fairly well with Coil and Shift Gear, but with SG it still has a chance to miss. In any case its less reliable for damaging than Wood Hammer but doesn't have the sub-par accuracy.

Electric moves allow it to plow through Skarm, which we don't want. Physical Elec moves will just end up being boosted by Swords Dance or Belly Drum and that will be the end of that.

Personally I dislike Ice moves because we've basically pared it down to Ice Shard and Ice Fang, and neither of those seem all that reasonable on Necturna. I suppose there could be some justification with the part Ghost type, but really, I just don't think they fit well unless they're on a set together and we acknowledge it as such. For instance, I'd like to see Ice Fang along with Icy Wind or neither of them, and I'm still heavily leaning neither because it's simply not that useful and serves mostly just to target Hydreigon.

The listed Bug and Psychic moves are cool. X-Scissor hits Hydreigon but fails against all other counters. On that note I like Bulldoze for allowed because it helps with non-Air Baloom variants of Heatran but is fairly inconsequential against other counters. It also lets Necturna run a non-speed booster and still have a chance to outspeed foes.

If we're gonna do Fangs I like Poison Fang because of the Toxic chance :D

 

[Lunar Fist]

I support Ice Shard for Allowed.

After looking at the calcs doe by RD, it seems to me that Ice Shard is a reasonable option for CAP 2. It hits Hydreigon and Dragonit most importantly, and serves little purpose outside of that due to it's low base power.

I also don't think that it gives CAP 2 too much physical coverage by any means. If Necturna sketches a boosting move and uses Ice Shard, that leaves 2 other slots for attacks, probably either dual stab or Grass Move/Stone Edge. Either way, the Heatran and friends still laugh at the attacks, boosted or not.

If Necturna sketches another coverage move, Close Combat, EQ, etc. to hit Heatran (and possibly Ferrothorn as well), and also chooses to run Ice Shard (in this case just for priority and Dragonite), then it can't boost it's stats and doesn't hit very hard outside of the set's intended targets.
Even a choice banded set with these moves would have a hard time with Skarm.

CB Close Combat from CAP 2 does 41% max to Physically Defensive Skarm and 53.6% max to Specially Defensive Skarm (A chance to 2HKO with rocks and lefties).

So, even if Necturna got Ice Shard without having to Sketch it, it would still have the same solid counters that any Necturna set is supposed to have, while granting a small amount of coverage and weak priority.

 

[Tayla]

As for Scarf Hydreigon, Power Whip already deals 60.4% - 71.2% to it at +1, and is then dispatched with a secondary move because of +2 in Speed. So even if Necturna had an Ice-type move in that scenario, Hydreigon's pretty much dead anyhow. I don't mind this Pokemon with Ice Punch or Ice Fang, but Ice Shard I think should be disallowed. It still creams Hydreigon in situations where the set has Swords Dance or Coil, when Hydreigon normally would be able to outspeed and handle it.

 

[capefeather]

I'm torn on Ice Shard and ExtremeSpeed. A big sticking point for me is that, especially with a Choice Band, its physical STAB, despite being resisted, could put Hydreigon in range of being revenged by Ice Shard later on. With a Choice Band and Adamant nature, Leaf Blade or Shadow Claw plus Ice Shard totals 69.0% - 91.4% on 4/0 Hydreigon. Even with Jolly, if Hydreigon happens to have a Life Orb, it's in pretty deep trouble. I know Hydreigon's only designated as a check, but I'm not sure we should allow this scenario to occur. Obviously, ExtremeSpeed is nearly (if not completely) identical in this scenario, so I think that Ice Shard and ExtremeSpeed should be in the same category at the very least, probably in Controversial.

 

[DarkOrbX]

I definately agree with the idea that Ice Shard is a viable move for Necturna, and I'm all in on supporting it's move to the allowed column. On the other hand, I'm not as supportive of Thunder Punch and ThunderFang. These two moves give Necturna HUGE type coverage, plus an absolute, sturdy advantage against Skarmory, Who is MEANT to be a threat to her. Ice Shard still allows Hydregion to be used as a check, as uwnim had previously stated. That is why I think that ThunderFang and Thunderpunch should be disallowed alltogether, while Ice Shard has a good reason to become allowed.

 

[Temperantia]

I'm putting full support behind allowing Power Whip.
In addition to being kept in check by middling accuracy, the move has no way of touching Nect's counters. Really, without a powerful coverage attack like Power Whip, she would be getting walled by things that don't even resist Grass attacks like Gliscor or Gyarados. This failure to be self-sufficient would discourage Sketching a coverage attack over a boosting move almost always.

 

[Project_Mars]

Luckily, there are programs that can do it for you.

You can manually insert the attacking and defending pokemon onto Smogon's damage calculator (4th gen Pokemon only, found here).

I personally do something similar with Honko's calculator found here (supports 5th gen, shows how your pokemon's attacks would fair against the entire metagame [read, anything with an analysis])

Oh, thanks.
Looking at it, it seems like Acrobatics won't be as problematic as i figured. I mean, it still does deal a good chunk of damage to most of its counters with just the Flying Gem boost for the first one, but it hardly threatens most of them after that first hit, with one exception. And with a Shell Smash boost, that Flying Gem makes her Acrobatics into something completely frightening for that one turn.

With just a flying Gem boost and no other boosts, Acrobatics will hit Hetran for a maximum of 26%, Dragonite for up to 29% if it's got Multiscale up (without multiscale though it gets smashed pretty good, losing between 41% and 58%) Skarmory walls this perfectly, taking a meager 16% at the maximum with a physically bulky skarm, and Hydreigon will suffer the most, losing between 51 and 60 percent of it's health, and the second, unboosted Acrobatics will kill Hydreigon, while Dragonite would just take, at most, 39% damage, making it a 3hko if it came in with multiscale.

With a +2 boost, it starts getting silly, as it has the potential to halve Hetran and Multiscale Dragonite's health with the Flying Gem Boost, and take off over 30% of their heath bars without it. Skarmory still walls off Acrobatics of course (but +2 Sacred Fire will Destroy it), but the thing that makes this less problematic than i initially thought is the fact that Hydreigon is 2hko'd by a +2 Acrobatics without a flying gem boost. Obviously with the flying gem boost it (and a large portion of the meta, actually) gets 1hko'd by Acrobatics.

Acrobatics would be interesting coverage-wise too. Flying covers grass and bug like Sacred Fire would, and would let you run Superpower for the sketch move, which at +2 will smack a Physically Bulky Skarm for 44% of it's health, and 1hko 'Tran. (And at +0, Superpower would hit 'Tran for 77% of it's health.)

 

[Infinity.Cypher]

Acrobatics
Air Slash
Drill Peck
should be Allowed, since they are flying-type moves and will hardly put a dent to each primary check besides hydreigon (which is good enough)
Acrobatics is a fairly useless move, forcing Necturna to run a disposable item (aka flight gem or white herb) in order to make the move useful.

1116 Atk vs 248 Def & 323 HP (110 Base Power): 177 - 208 (54.80% - 64.40%)
Flight gem boosted +2 Adamant 252 Atk Necturna's Acrobatics vs 0/0 Heatran

744 Atk vs 248 Def & 323 HP (110 Base Power): 118 - 139 (36.53% - 43.03%)
+2 Adamant 252 Atk Necturna's Acrobatics vs 0/0 Heatran

Heatran is the least physically defensive out of Skarmory and Jirachi, and Acrobatics hardly dents a 0/0 Heatran even at +2. Assuming Heatran switches onto the Shell Smash, Necturna will never KO Heatran with Acrobatics, even if it is Flight Gem boosted. It's just a waste of a moveslot space. Thus Allow
Drill Peck is weaker than Acrobatics, but allows Necturna to use a held item. If a boosted Acrobatics can't KO Heatran, than a boosted Drill Peck can't either (a 3hko). Thus Allow
Didn't even think about of the Flying/Fighting Coverage it gains, I'll think about it later
With all fighting-type moves disallowed on Necturna, it cannot get the combination of Shell Smash and Superpower. Thus, it's either Acrobatics + Superpower or Acrobatics + Superpower, but not Acrobatics + Superpower + Shell Smash. Thus, it cannot abuse the said coverage. If Heatran switches on the +2 Flight Gem Acrobatics, then it's alright (assuming Necturna is running Grass (Power Whip)/(shadow claw) Ghost/Flying coverage) because it's a low chance of a 2hko (acrobatics is stronger than STAB Shadow Claw and STAB Power Whip due to double resist). Also, Scarftran can check Acrobatics/Superpower versions since Superpower does 90% at best to 0/0 Heatran
Air Slash is even weaker than both, and it runs off of Necturna's weaker base Sp.A . In addition, she doesn't have the ability to abuse it, and she's just middling speed (unless Shell Smash boosted of course, but it's still isn't strong). Thus Allow

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Posting again.

I pretty much agree all-round with the allowed/disallowed lists thus far. As far as controversial moves go, I would say that so far I have mainly seen support for Power Whip, and it does not seem controversial in that sense - indeed, it is far less so than several other moves that have been allowed or disallowed thus far. I will avoid restating the arguments already presented in this thread, and my position on the move has not changed since my last post. Of course, as I said in that post, the main issue with Power Whip is not that it is overpowered, but rather to what extent we want to make physical variants of Necturna a threat. So maybe it is better for it to go to the vote. We'll see.

I am still against all other moves under the controversial list, though my reasoning here may be somewhat difficult to explain - certainly, it was so on IRC. In this case, I would say that they should be disallowed because there is no positive effect that they can bring by being added to the movepool, and more than that, the only possible effect they can have is negative. If I may explain further - the only possible use for an Electric-type move on Necturna's moveset is to hit Skarmory (purely in terms of OU threats), and likewise, that for a physical Ice-type move such as Ice Fang, with regard to its being used over Stone Edge, is its ability to hit Hydreigon, Salamence, and Dragonite, three Pokemon we made it clear should check Necturna to a reasonable extent. The latter two are hit hard by Stone Edge and Hydreigon is mashed by STAB Grass-type moves regardless; however, this is not the point. The only conceivable use here is against Pokemon we have outlined as answers to Necturna - or, to put it another way, against Pokemon that by rights, one should be forced to Sketch moves in order to bypass.

This is not a good idea. Put simply, by placing a move that could conceivably be used against good checks, but nothing else, we are diminishing the value of Sketch, albeit not in any significant sense, and bloating a movepool. The actual competitive use of these moves does not matter in this case, since the argument is not about the relative power of said moves. Were Ice Punch actually used or not, it is still removing one other Sketch possibility from the table - and the presence of any Ice-type offensive move lowers one's willingness to actually use another move of that type - if you can get away with a weaker but functionally equivalent version while retaining Sketch, why bother?

Next we consider whatever positive aspects can be gleaned from a move being allowed. On any typical movepool, this is no difficulty at all. We can see what coverage moves we already have - there is no problem with essentially limitless coverage. There are no positive aspects to allowing Ice Shard and the rest. My essential argument is that they are inherently distracting, detract from what we are trying to accomplish, and limit what we can achieve - that's more or less the shape of it. Whether or not they offer Necturna any huge benefit in terms of movepool is neither here nor there. Of course, you may well disagree. Certainly do not suppose I have spoken of them as broken, for I certainly do not believe that. Any more than I think Bubble would be overpowered.

As for the rest? I still hold my word on Air Slash and Flash Cannon. As I have said above, it is not about their relative power on usefulness - they are still distracting moves. I am, thus, being quite firm on this point. Of course, if we are allowing Psychic-type moves, certainly the above two pose no risk of being overpowered, as such. In the same way, I would advocate against Meteor Mash, Acrobatics, and Drill Peck.

As for the final three, I have no real qualms about Fake Out and Super Fang, although especially for the latter, I would have thought that this would be a move that could easily be Sketched to suit the user's purposes, and as such is not so fantastic a choice. I am aware, however, that support sets, which stand to gain the most from both of these moves (well, maybe not Fake Out, but you know what I mean) will perhaps want to be Sketching some more potent moves, and as such Sketching Super Fang may fall a little by the wayside. I can't see it being used over Night Shade, but hey, support sets need more love. As for Extremespeed, I would reject it on the grounds that I do not want Necturna carrying around any priority stronger than Shadow Sneak, and that we all know what Dragonite is capable of with this move. I'd rather not just haphazardly slap priority on Necturna, especially when it has a perfectly good move of that nature already.

In summary:

Power Whip - ALLOW
Ice Fang / Ice Shard / Ice Punch - DISALLOW
Thunder Fang / ThunderPunch - DISALLOW
Acrobatics / Air Slash / Drill Peck - DISALLOW
Fake Out - NEUTRAL
Super Fang - NEUTRAL
ExtremeSpeed - DISALLOW
Flash Cannon / Meteor Mash - DISALLOW

 

[Lunar Fist]

When discussing Ice Shard, someone brought up the possibility of Belly Drum.

So, I ran these calcs with a moveset of Ice Shard, Horn Leech, Shadow Punch, and Belly Drum (Sketch).
Calcs done at +6 with Life Orb equipped

Hide

Forretress (OU Physically Defensive) 44.35 - 52.54%
Skarmory (OU Physically Defensive) 45.5 - 53.59%
Ferrothorn (OU Standard) 50.28 - 59.37%
Forretress (OU Specially Defensive) 55.36 - 65.25%
Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) 58.98 - 69.46%
Ferrothorn (OU Choice Band) 59.25 - 70.08%
Heatran (OU Specially Defensive) 65.19 - 76.88%
Heatran (OU TormenTran) 65.36 - 77.08%
Escavalier (OU Choice Band) 73.46 - 86.58%
Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance) 76.45 - 90.11%
Scizor (OU Choice Band) 76.67 - 90.37%
Heatran (OU Offensive) 77.7 - 91.64%
Heatran (OU Choice Scarf) 77.7 - 91.64%
Heatran (OU Choice Specs) 77.7 - 91.64%
Magnezone (OU Dual Screen) 77.9 - 91.86%
Tangrowth (OU Physical Tank) 80.44 - 95.04%
Cobalion (OU Calm Mind) 81.48 - 96.29%
Cobalion (OU Swords Dance) 81.73 - 96.59%
Drapion (OU Toxic Spikes) 87.79 - 103.48%
Durant (OU Hone Claws) 93.02 - 109.3%
Scizor (OU Offensive Swords Dance) 93.59 - 110.32%
Scizor (OU Choice Scarf) 93.59 - 110.32%
Jirachi (OU Wish + Calm Mind) 96.03 - 112.87%
Porygon2 (OU Defensive Duck) 96.52 - 113.9%
Bisharp (OU Swords Dance) 98.2 - 115.86%
Klinklang (OU Shift Gear) 99.65 - 117.34%
Magnezone (OU Substitute + 3 Attacks) 101.03 - 118.96%

I'm not sure what to make of this, but this says that EVERYTHING has a chance to be 2HKOed with rocks and lefties using the appropriate move.
Everything else under Magnezone is OHKOes, including all D-nite variants (Multiscale active) and all Hydreigon variants.

Very few things can actually avoid an OHKO and outspeed Necturna (Heatran with Speed EVs can, as well as Jirachi and Cobalion).

I'm not sure if this means Ice Shard is broken or not, as I'm not experienced with interpreting these kinds of calculations. I will say that this seems a bit too powerful for me.

Remember, Necturna still has great bulk to pull off the Belly Drum and Horn Leech to recover some HP.

 

[uwnim]

Looking at that, I have changed my mind and think that Ice Shard and ExtremeSpeed should be disallowed.
Skarmory and slower Heatran cannot do much against Belly Drum sets because of Stone Edge. If Shadow Sneak is the only priority move CAP 2 can use with Belly Drum, then Hydreigon can outspeed or survive Shadow Sneak and KO.

 

[SJCrew]

Belly Drum has never been good, not even on Pokemon with priority. All of the things Necturna can do and you're worried about +6 non-STABed Ice Shard? Nevermind that she [presumably] has to waste her Sketch in order to use something that risky. On top of that, Ice Shard, Stone Edge and Ghost/Grass move is garbage for coverage, and leaves you open to Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape, Scarf Heatran, etc. Even if people use it, it's going to be about as easy to check as any other Necturna once you figure out what she's doing.

Necturna can use ANY boosting move, or support,. You only have to send in a check for, say, Quiver Dance... oh no, it's Gear Shift, and you now have to switch in on a boosted attack!

Most of the Pokemon you listed in those calcs weren't checks to begin with, and the checks you actually listed were able to switch in on literally everything she does besides Sketched move, Power Whip or not. Even in an extraneous situation where the set you didn't want appears, it's a folly of your own if you decided to immediately switch in an Intimidate Arcanine so it can die to boosted Grass move -> Shadow Claw. This, again, happens even with Leaf Blade. Bring it in on the revenge and stop its sweep that way instead. Poor playing should not affect the moves it has access to.

I mean, putting the pressure on frail resists is fine. 2HKO'ing things like Conkeldurr and Gliscor isn't. Removing Power Whip means you actually have to predict switch ins, and use Shadow Claw when appropriate, instead of 'mindlessly spam Power Whip to 2HKO the world'. That's why I included the 2HKO's and OHKO's at +0...

She 2HKOes Conkeldurr with Leaf Blade too, which, more importantly, was never intended to be a check. If anything, mentioning the things she fails to KO with Leaf Blade is just a greater incentive to allow Power Whip. I don't want her to miss KOs against non-checks at all. She already has bad STABs for a physical attacker, and limited coverage in her immediate movepool, plus guaranteed checks that ONLY have to watch out for her Sketch move. That's good enough to keep her from being 'too powerful' without imposing extra nerfs.

 

[Bughouse]

I am currently against everything in the Controversial grouping (except maybe Power Whip.) Ice or Electric coverage in the allowed grouping is a bit overwhelming in my opinion.

As for the Need Discussion grouping, I am adamantly against allowing Extremespeed, due to Shadow Claw/Extremespeed/Sacred Fire/Power Whip or Leaf Blade Choice Banded sets (or boosting sets with extremespeed...) We all know how good Arceus is with Extremespeed in Ubers, and CAP2 has the same attack stat. (Yes I know Necturna wouldn't get STAB.) Just seems a bit obscene to me. I haven't calced anything specific though.

Also, Fake Out should be allowed, since it is likely negligibly important in every way except for breaking Dragonite's Multiscale. It will likely never be used, except maybe on some interesting and unique lead sets, which should be encouraged for additional versatility.

Likewise, Super Fang should be allowed, as it is hardly the most threatening option Necturna has, and, again, can only encourage more wallish sets for additional versatility.

 

[Juicy]

I don't want her to miss KOs against non-checks at all. She already has bad STABs for a physical attacker, and limited coverage in her immediate movepool, plus guaranteed checks that ONLY have to watch out for her Sketch move. That's good enough to keep her from being 'too powerful' without imposing extra nerfs.

This!

If we carry on down this road, worrying about every possibility that could happen with regards to what Necturna could sketch and finding a way to counter it by not including said threatening move in its moveset we will end up with a barely usable pokemon that relies on it's sketch move to become effective, not a "competently built pokemon" that has the versatility of sketch. Besides I don't think there is any possible way we could cover every threat. 559 possible moves, with oh so many combinations - there is always going to be something that will slip through the gap.

For this reason I would Allow Power whip, acrobatics, thunder punch and ice punch, just for the general coverage that most competently built pokemon have.

Though, giving Necturna coverage/powerful priority options is risky. Belly Drum + extremespeed is highly potent from 120 base attack, Lucario just has swords dance and look how he performs with it, all unSTABed and everything. I would vote to Disallow priority moves in general, but more so extremespeed.

 

[SJCrew]

As for the Need Discussion grouping, I am adamantly against allowing Extremespeed, due to Shadow Claw/Extremespeed/Sacred Fire/Power Whip or Leaf Blade Choice Banded sets (or boosting sets with extremespeed...) We all know how good Arceus is with Extremespeed in Ubers, and CAP2 has the same attack stat. (Yes I know Necturna wouldn't get STAB.) Just seems a bit obscene to me. I haven't calced anything specific though.

That doesn't sound obscene to me. That sounds good. CB Espeed helps revenge faster threats, she's a good physical Grass and Ghost-type, neither of which are represented very well in OU, plus that Sketch trump card...all of that and she's still not as good as, say, CB Dnite and can't attack freely until Ttar and Scizor are dead (Pursuit catches everything but Sacred Fire/Power Whip). Stall can circumvent her tricks with Protect and her STABs are still garbage coverage-wise. In fact, Extremespeed is probably the only good reason to use CB on her. No Espeed = no CB. Sketching Swords Dance means she'll lose out on coverage for Steels, which is a good thing because that's what her checks are going to be.

And how could you even compare her to Arceus when she gets none of the things that make Arceus good? No STAB, poor immediate movepool, significantly worse stats in all but two. She scares all of the right things with enough crippling weaknesses to ensure she's not overstaying her welcome. I'd welcome this kind of potential with open arms.

 

[Juicy]

In fact, Extremespeed is probably the only good reason to use CB on her. No Espeed = no CB.

CB with Power Whip/Sacred Fire/Stone Edge/Pursuit is a good reason to use CB on her?

I don't think she will be missing out on much of what she's doing not having extremespeed. The faster threats are usually worrying about their frailty, and Necturna has the power to hurt them plus some decent bulk/immunities/resistances/healing/forewarn-ness ( :S ) on her to take their attack. Scizor is bulky with powerful priority and he's so good he's eyed up by everyone and their mum. Granted Necturna doesn't have the typing but Scizor doesn't have the sketch/wild card.

 

[Jaetheho]

allow ice fang, thunder fang, and powwe whip

why? let me explain.

first of all, it provides useful coverage but is JUST LITTLE BIT short of ouright demolishing counters/checks.

second of all, the flavor... i see necturna as mawile, with jaws. yea? fangs. i know we cant discuss flavor but we.

lastly but most importantly,
with better options, at least one of these two moves will be a gimick to kill a counter: a wasted move slot.
let me explain by mentionting thre pokemon: scizor, ferrothorn, and swampert.

scizor is the no.1 poke in ou. it is strong, but it has counters, but it thrives. i would say the #1 counter is gyarados. magnezone traps and heatran burns but they are hit by scizors superpower. now, scizor has a gimmick it can use to kill is #1 counter. natural gift. with wacan berry (i think) and technician, it has a 90 Bp electric move that can OHKO gyrados with rocks. sure he can do this but its a gimmick. a waste of a move.

lets talk about ferrothorn. heatran and magnezone rapes it. however, likewise, it can run bulldoze. but this is mostly a waste of time, when it can spend time laying spikes.

what is swampert's #1 counter?
ferothorn. can he beat ferry? yes. with superpower. but this again is seen as a waste of a move slt and an hindrance in his waling capabilities.

all of these are examples of coverage moves gone useless (almost) i see thunderfang and ice fang becoming like this, but to a lesser extent. becuse 1) if running shell smash, you can only choose one of these +the STABS which subtracts from necturnas ability to get past checks. 2) if it decides to use both +2 stabs, it has better options, like SACED FIRE on a CB set.

for these reasons allow powerwhip, and the two elemental fangs

 

[zyrefredric]

When we're undecided whether a certain move should be allowed or not, maybe we could ask ourselves, "If this move is not found in Necturna's movepool, would I be tempted to use my Sketch slot for this move?" This is true for the powerful boosting moves such as Belly Drum, Quiver Dance, Gear Shift, etc. If these moves are not available, it's worth sketching for them.

I think that ExtremeSpeed is a very tempting sketch option, so I'd say disallow ExtremeSpeed. All other moves in needs discussion may be allowed. They're not that great for coverage, so I think there's no need to disallow them.

I know Power Whip is a tasty sketch option if initially disallowed, but it's a physical STAB which is much needed to make physical sets equally viable to the special sets. (Note how ghost physical STABs are weak) So, allow Power Whip.

I think Necturna should also be forced to sketch any coverage moves she needs to bypass her counters (Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, Hydreigon). Fire, Water, Electric, Ice, Fighting, Ground, Bug and Dragon moves are super-effective to at least one of these counters, so it's either we only allow weak moves of these types, or completely disallow them. From the OP, Fighting, Water, Ground, Fire and Dragon attacking moves are already disallowed. I'm saying disallow Electric, Ice and Bug attacking moves. So yeah, that means disallow Ice Fang, Ice Shard, Ice Punch, Thunder Fang and ThunderPunch. (The fangs are weak enough that they can be allowed, but using that same logic, why can't we allow Karate Chop, Razor Shell, Bone Club, and Fire Fang. They're weak counterparts that could be used for coverage.)

Which means I'm wondering also why Bug Buzz is currently allowed. Maybe I missed something, but is Bug Buzz needed for something important that we allow it, even if it could be used to cover Hydreigon, one of its supposed counters? As of now, maybe disallow Bug Buzz?

And I wonder also, I agree with the 2nd OP that a physical coverage move is needed, and that Rock is the best type. However, why can't we have Stone Edge, Rock Slide and Rock Blast all allowed? I know Rising Dusk explained well why he chose Stone Edge, but I'm wondering, why is there a need to choose? (Maybe the flinch chance? but Rock Blast doesn't have that.)

 

[Raikaria]

(Note how ghost physical STABs are weak)

All Ghost STABs are weak. Shadow Ball is only Base 80 power, Shadow Claw is Base 70. The only strong Ghost STAB is Shadow Force... which is a 2 turn attack.