CaP 20 Prevos - Part 1 - Typing Discussion

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DHR-107

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Orange Islands
Hey all!

It is that time again for you to all get out your flavour hats and take a look at Naviathan's TWO prevolutions! Let's keep this light and carefree as we look into how our water boat comes into being.

There are only a couple of rules for the prevo process, number one of which is this is a completely flavour based project. The whole prevo process is just for fun! Some of the critters we have made in the past have been adorable but deadly! Competitive reasoning is thrown out of the window here, and all flavour based reasoning is perfectly valid. "It just makes sense" is just as much an opinion as any other. This is a place where anyone can come in and help us decide what Naviathan should evolve from.

Please also remember these are likely to never be implemented onto the server or used apart from in CaPASB. This is supposed to be a fun process. It's a great time for newcomers to get their feet wet in CAP, a great place for CAP regulars to keep making Pokemon during the downtime, and overall just a cool project to work on during the Policy Review stage/downtime of the CAP process. The primary purpose of this is to have fun, so let your imaginations run wild devising the most intricate and logical arguments!

So let's get down to seeing how the discussion pans out. Naviathan is Water/Steel so this type combo will be automatically slated for both of its prevos.

 

The Avalanches

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I think mono Water could be an appropriate typing for one or both pre-evos. It follows logic that the underdeveloped form of a large steel ship may be a wooden one. However, Water/Steel are also appropriate potential typings, as it wouldn't be a stretch for Naviathan's two prior forms to be made of steel.
 

Da Pizza Man

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I would like to suggest Water and Water/Steel (Water for first stage, Water/Steel for second stage). I feel like this fits Naviathan's level up movepool perfectly. Since this thing is probably going to evolve into its middle stage in somewhere around the level 20 stage (Where it learns metal sound, a move that really only fits steel types and some sound based mons)and its very typical for water types to change their typing opon evolution
 

Quanyails

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Given that Naviathan has feathery oars and that its movepool has Peck, Gust, Drill Peck, and Hurricane in level-up moves (that's the same number of Flying-type moves as Water- and Steel-type moves), it wouldn't be a stretch to have a pre-evo or two be Water/Flying. I can imagine Naviathan pre-evos being a lighter mode of transportation before evolving into a longship.
 
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Unsee

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I definitely think it's right to have the first evolution be a plain Water type. As several have said already, I like the concept of it being a developing ship, finally becoming its final form, ready to navigate the most treacherous waters. As a more basic boat would be a wooden one, I wish I was allowed to suggest Water/Grass. However this typing combo doesn't really work with the level-up moveset we already have. The second evolution, then, must be Water/Steel.
 
Naviathan's Steel type seems like a feature it develops over time: I wouldn't imagine the first form, at least, to have all the shields and oars ready yet to be considered a Steel type, so first form as Water seems solid. The second stage I can see as Water/Steel perhaps, but I think Water for the second form would be better, to possibly show it's not yet ready for the harsh seas. The fact there's several three stage evolution lines with Water types (Poliwag, Tympole, Horsea) gaining their secondary typing at the last form would also have this make sense. The main problem I see, however, is that the movepool has several Steel moves early on, implying that at least the middle stage probably has a Steel type.

For typings that introduce a new type in the mix, Water/Ice and the earlier suggested Water/Flying make surprisingly enough quite a bit of sense, as Naviathan has quite a few Flying moves in level-up as well as learning several Ice moves that you don't always see on a Water type such as Icicle Spear, Icicle Crash, and Haze. The rest don't quite make sense to me.
 
Water monotype would definitely be a good choice as I feel Water/Steel seems too good of a combination for a first stage pokemon. I think it needs to go to a 'journey' to become a fully fledge proper metal Naviathan and this combination as the starting point really reinforces that. Fully support it going Water/Steel as the middle evolution to let the trainer start getting used to it's great typing in the middle stages of the game.

However, throwing something different in: how about Water/Normal? I know it's not mammalian enough like most other Normal types but that didn't stop Helioptile. Again, this is more about the idea of starting out on a journey before it becomes the final Water/Steel type- perhaps Naviathan starts out as a normal aquatic reptile that transforms its hide to a thicker steel armour? Or think of it like how Azurill used to be Normal/Water, then becomes pure Water as a Marill when its ready to be aquatic enough/move to the aquatic environment.

Plus, it introduces similar properties of Water/Steel that makes it a good starting point as a learning experience. (i.e. shared Fighting/Electric/Grass weakness). Depending on the evolution level, some moves can be replaced by Normal moves at the earlier stages (Screech instead of Metal Sound but you can still Heart Scale Metal Sound- Just like how Empoleon's Metal Claw replaces Piplup's Bide in the final evolution movepool). Then it can move to Water/Steel for the middle evo as it starts to toughen up as it moves further down to deeper seas. The middle evo then gains further resistances through experience as its hide changes to a more metallic nature. This way, its not a complete copy of the Water->Water->Water/Steel method seen in the Empoleon line.
 
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Going to suggest something a bit weird here, but what about Water / Rock for the first or second prevo? Rock is often seen as a stepping stone to Steel and symbolizes a less finished product. We could do Water -> Water / Rock -> Water / Steel this way to have a neat progression.
 
I think a lot of the typings that make sense have already been mentioned, but I'd just like to say that if Stage 1 of this evolutionary line was a Water/Non-Steel Type, then Stage 2 should probably also either be Water/Non-Steel Type or Water/Steel, because after looking through several evolutionary families, there aren't really any Pokemon that adhere to a Type 1/Type 2 --> Type 1 --> Type 1/Type 3 pattern. There also don't seem to be many evolutionary lines whose secondary typing changes between generations (usually Pokemon go from having one type to two), but there are at least examples of this, like the aforementioned Azurill/Marill/Azumarill line. However, all of this is just if we wanted to adhere to the style of the games, and I'm not completely sure if that's a factor here or not, but I just wanted to mention it.
 
All of our three stage CAPs have retained their types over the course of evolution so far. I'm referring to Pyroak, Stratagem, Cyclohm, and Aurumoth. If that's the case, why not this one? Water/Steel and Water/Steel just make sense this time. However, the first stage could appear to resemble a wooden boat, so pure Water could be the way to go for the first stage.
 
I think the first stage should be Water, so that it can eventually develop the Steel attributes as it evolves. The second evolution is kind of a wild card, though... I can see Water/Ice, Water/Rock, and even Water/Flying working for the second stage. It might be a cool art concept to have an almost pteranodon-like second evolution, and then the larger parts of its wings develop into legs, leaving only decorative feather/oar things. Just a thought.
 

jas61292

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Just want to second what plaindrome said regarding types. I do not believe there are any Pokemon that go X/A --> X/B --> X/C. If we are going to have it change types, we should only ever do so one. Personally, I'd rather just stick with Water/Steel throughout, but if we are to change something, I would just drop the Steel type, but for the first stage only, to differentiate it a bit more from the Empoleon line.
 
I agree that pure Water is definitely the way to go, with the steel-type aspects developing later. It goes in the same line as many of the evos that started pure-type, but eventually gained their secondary type.
 

MikeDawg

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What about Mono-Steel? Flavour-wise, the construction itself is steel. It wouldn't be put into water until it was finished, correct? This would simpy be taking a different angle from "small boat gets bigger" as the evolution progresses. Starting out as a frame of sorts, to me, is the most intuitive way to develop a machine-based pokemon (like how magnezone starts as a magnet and klinkklang starts as a gear).
 
Just want to second what plaindrome said regarding types. I do not believe there are any Pokemon that go X/A --> X/B --> X/C. If we are going to have it change types, we should only ever do so one. Personally, I'd rather just stick with Water/Steel throughout, but if we are to change something, I would just drop the Steel type, but for the first stage only, to differentiate it a bit more from the Empoleon line.
Yeah, I really don't like the idea of giving a middle-evolution a unique secondary typing because of the fact that it's never happened before in Pokemon, and the would seem a bit too out-of-norm for my liking.

At this stage in my mind, the only sensical typings would be Water and Steel. I'm personally not a big fan of Flying being added, as there are little justifications for it being added that don't rely on "feathery" oars or its peculiar moveset options. Rock doesn't scream out to me as fitting to a wooden-type ship for a possible pre-evolution.

I am leaning heavily towards the second-in-line typing being Water/Steel, since a giant ship like Naviathan doesn't seem like it would instantly don a steel exterior, but gradually develop it over time. Water is definitely fitting for a first pre-evolution, especially since more inspiration may be taken towards the creature-esque side of the Pokemon.
 

Codraroll

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Fire/Fighting :)

No, in all seriousness, mono-Water for the first stage, and Water(/Steel) for the second sounds like the most logical and obvious choice to go. Starting with a wooden boat gradually evolving into a steel ship is a nice concept, but hard to reflect in typing without adding a Grass Type, which is a path I'd really rather not go down.

The idea of going from pure Steel is also interesting, showing the boat as it gets built, but a "frame" of a boat would be a little too skeletal for my liking. The concept of Rock -> Steel reflecting technological process is nice too, but not for a ship. To my knowledge, nobody ever made boats out of rock.


Given that Naviathan has feathery oars and that its movepool has Peck, Gust, Drill Peck, and Hurricane in level-up moves (that's the same number of Flying-type moves as Water- and Steel-type moves), it wouldn't be a stretch to have a pre-evo or two be Water/Flying. I can imagine Naviathan pre-evos being a lighter mode of transportation before evolving into a longship.
This makes sense too, but not the way you seem to imagine. I've got the perfect design concept for this alternative: A rubber duck.
 
My preference is definitely for both stages to be Mono Water, but I can certainly see a secondary steel type for the second stage (not the first, though.) Beyond that, I personally can't see any types other than Water and Steel to be thrown into the mix. Rock doesn't make sense to me, and while the argument for Flying is logical based on movepool alone, I just can't imagine any design for a Flying type pokemon which evolves into a boat that makes sense.
 

Deck Knight

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Put me in the Water/Steel all the way camp. We already have a Pokemon that transitions from mono-Water to Water/Steel in Piplup -> Empoleon, I'd like this line to be consistent throughout, perhaps going from a small speedboat to a more canoe-like design and then Naviathan's final form.
 

Quanyails

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My preference is definitely for both stages to be Mono Water, but I can certainly see a secondary steel type for the second stage (not the first, though.) Beyond that, I personally can't see any types other than Water and Steel to be thrown into the mix. Rock doesn't make sense to me, and while the argument for Flying is logical based on movepool alone, I just can't imagine any design for a Flying type pokemon which evolves into a boat that makes sense.
Sailboats? Motorboats? Inflatable rafts? And that's only if we're limited enough to stick with watercraft as designs. There's a Water-type Pokemon line that transitions from a remora to an octopus, and there's a Steel-type Pokemon line that transitions from a mirror to a bell. We're certainly not limited to boats, and personally, I'd be disappointed if we continue the trend of CAP-minis as pre-evos.

Re. Golden009: It probably makes less flavor sense to have Naviathan know Drill Peck or have feather oars if it stays mono-Water or Water-Steel.
 
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Sailboats? Motorboats? Inflatable rafts? And that's only if we're limited enough to stick with watercraft as designs. There's a Water-type Pokemon line that transitions from a remora to an octopus, and there's a Steel-type Pokemon line that transitions from a mirror to a bell. We're certainly not limited to boats, and personally, I'd be disappointed if we continue the trend of CAP-minis as pre-evos.
The problem I have with a Flying-type prevo is that I feel like there's no way to have it make sense in context. If we did do a Flying prevo, it would feel like we're just doing it to be different, not for any flavor reason. A pure Water would allow us more flexibility, as well as an easier time through.
 
I want to suggest something a little bit unorthodox. Many boats are made of wood, so it would make sense for Naviathan to turn from Wood to Steel. Therefore, I want to suggest for the First Stage to be Water/Grass, and the Second Stage to be Water/Steel.
 
I'd put support behind the first stage being Water/Normal, and i can see stage 2 being Water/Steel, as there are many Pokemon with steel as a secondary typing that don't have it on the first evolution, and i see the first stage being Normal-ish enough to warent normal being it's secondary type, though Mono-Water could work there too of course.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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For stage one specifically, I would like to put my support behind Water/Normal. The egg groups are Water 1 and Field, and I think a Normal typing has the best odds of making the Field part of the egg group make sense.
 

Mowtom

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Can we just stick with mono-water or water/steel for both of them? Anything else feels way too fancy tbh. The vast majority of Pokemon don't lose a type, and I can't see why we're so fixated on CAPrevos doing that.
 

The Avalanches

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Given that Naviathan's movepool has Peck, Gust, Drill Peck, and Hurricane in level-up moves, it wouldn't be a stretch to have a pre-evo or two be Water/Flying.
That would be interesting. Water/Flying opens up a lot of potential designs for when we get to the art stage, stuff like seaplanes and dragons come to mind immediately. We also have precedence when it comes to this -- Breezi and Scyther. This typing intrigues me more than any of the others suggested so far, and I think Water/Flying to Water/Steel could have my vote at this stage. I just don't really like Water/Normal, and I'm especially not crazy about Water/Grass.
 
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