CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[Ignus]

Slow vs Fast part 18384
I think that people are misunderstanding something about faster parting shot, which is its actual ability to preserve momentum. Parting Shot's primary use is still that it makes us move second when the opponent switches out on us - and yes, while using it only to lighten the load isn't worth a spot on a set, when coupled with the late switch utility it suddenly becomes super useful in a variety of situations and well worth a moveslot.

I think we need to look more carefully at the situations when we'll actually be using parting shot. For the faster version, I'd expect something like this:

(Numbers are turns)

1. CAP gets a switch in against something it beats, opponent hits with non-effective move / some utility
2. Opponent switches away in order to not die, we get a free turn to do whatever we want (parting shot to pivot away and give us a second free turn, set up rocks, hit opponent with some shit)
3. CAP Parting Shots out, opponent hits our glue-mon with something ineffective

This sort of rhythm is extremely common, especially when playing with some sort of fat balance or semi stall team. The back and forth pattern used by a good semi stall player can only be really broken by either a setup sweeper or a wall breaker - both of which are gimped by a Faster Parting Shot user. The idea is that every time CAP switches in, we're winning these smaller exchanges while simultaneously ensuring that the opponent can't break out of these '1 free turn each' trades our team prefers.

A slower parting shot user assumes that whatever the opponent switched in on CAP can't actually kill us. Without the extra speed, we're guessing that CAP will never be straight up killed by whatever counters are switching into it. But, I'm betting this isn't the case. I think it's extremely likely the opponent will have an answer to CAP that can either kill or severely injure it. If we're using a slower parting shot, we're letting the opponent hit CAP with the moves that hurt it the most. I think this is even less useful than trying to use parting shot as a sort of 'better switch out'.

(Non slow/fast arguments below this line)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Choice Scarf doesn't work like that.
Using choice scarf removes the whole point of using a faster Parting Shot - we can't use it reactively to soften blows for our team, and are forced to use it exclusively as a predictive measure. At that point, I'd rather use a coverage move.
A lure set would be more effective than just pivoting to a friend.

Edit: This argument was a little binary from me and not quite what I intended. Sure, you can use it over a coverage move, but we have to realize that it removes the whole idea behind using a faster parting shot user. Using it predictively is by no means a BAD thing. It's still good. It's just that classifying it as a 'faster parting shot' is probably inaccurate in the context of the arguments on this thread. We can't do 'both' because choiced parting shot and being faster than the opponent and using parting shot are different. We physically can't use choiced parting shot reactively.

In regards to support vs offensive
It doesn't really matter. The only things that matter are that we can (1) force the opponent to give CAP a free turn, and (2) Use that free turn effectively. If we can do that with just supportive moves, that's fine. If we can only really force the opponent to switch out with a big hit, that's fine too. The only questions we need to ask ourselves are 'can we get a turn' and 'can we use it'.

 

[Alfalfa]

Ignus of course a slow CAP will not be utterly unkillable. If it was, it would be banned. What we can do is make our CAP capable of tanking hits from enough Pokemon to make SPS usable. All we need to do is make our CAP capable of switching into a number of threats in the metagame and avoid the 2HKO. It might not be as easy as I just stated when it comes to actually building the CAP, but that does not mean it will be impossible.

 

[Ununhexium]

I'm really feeling a fast offensive Pokemon here.

What I feel is that Parting Shot, while sort of like U-turn / Volt Switch, is more like a lower risk lower reward / reusable version of Memento. I really don't think this should be more of a "soften the blow" Pokemon because I really don't see what it accomplishes in the long run. At most it can turn a OHKO into a 2HKO, but if the other Pokemon is faster than the one coming in its still dying anyway. At best it extends the game for a few turns because if you keep bringing stuff in through Parting Shot it's still taking hazard damage over and over.

I think a better direction would be a Pokemon good on hyper offense teams that can threaten a lot of Pokemon with two good STAB types and maybe like a third coverage / auxiliary move to be used along Parting Shot (third move doesn't really matter, sort of like a Fighting-type using a STAB and Knock Off for coverage and something like Poison Jab that isn't like a great coverage move but gets the job done kind of thing [not a poll jump just for sake of example]). We've established pretty well that U-turn and Volt Switch are valuable because the mere threat of taking one in the face can force something out (like the U-turn vs Celebi example). We obviously can't do that with a move that doesn't do damage, so we have to force the target out some other way (having some strong STAB moves with some decent coverage). What I hope will come from this is that it can force other Pokemon out and click Parting Shot to make other Pokemon easier to set up.

So basically what I want to see this mon be:

• Fast
• Strong
• Built to last long
• Strong / spammable STABs
• Should synergize well with other sweepers

Also I think it is important to point out that it is NOT the goal of this Pokemon to want to click Parting Shot constantly. If we have that mindset we're gonna force ourselves into making a shitty Pokemon that does nothing other than click Parting Shot. I guarantee it.

Edit: Ignus I would absolutely use Parting Shot on a Choice Scarfer lol have you ever seen Choice Scarf Hydreigon in UU it literally uses U-turn for no purpose other than pivoting its not doing shit damage. It's entirely a predictive measure and its a damn good one.

 

[sparktrain]

Hey all. I'm going to quickly weigh in on the "slow vs fast, offense vs support" discussion. After some talk on PS and reading through the posts in this thread, I'm personally finding myself a bit more convinced by the FPS arguments in terms of CAP 22's ability to preserve momentum and force switches. As far as "offense vs support" goes, it was brought up earlier that the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, which I think is an important point (both offer clear benefits, and what's important in the end is how effectively CAP 22 is able to force switches and take advantage of Parting Shot, as running the move in the first place needs to be justifiable over running, say, a fourth coverage or a utility option). I feel as though a lot of the direction we take take with the movepool will be dependent on what sort of typing we end up with, so I'm comfortable leaving this open for debate in the meantime.

Discussion seems to be slowing down a bit and I don't want this thread to drag on too long, so I'd like to try getting things wrapped up in about 24 hours. I think the current direction of the discussion is fine, so I'd like to continue focusing on the same points for the remainder of the assessment.

 

[Korski]

Going slow with this CAP would be a suboptimal use of Parting Shot. When you use a pivoting move like U-turn or Volt Switch, the damage is good and helpful, but really the main point is the switch advantage. When you pivot against an opposing Pokemon, you switch in something that straight-up beats it. You know it, your opponent knows it, and you both act accordingly on the following turn. That's the correct way to pivot. When you pivot against Heatran, for example, you send in Keldeo and force the opponent to either sac his/her Heatran or waste a turn switching out. The damage from Volt Switch or, to a much lesser extent, U-turn, helps wear it down, but the whole point of the maneuver is to create momentum by forcing the Heatran out and scoring a free turn.

Which is why a slow Parting Shot would almost always be inferior to U-turn or Volt Switch and would probably be pretty bad in general. If you are pivoting optimally, the opponent should be switching out on the next turn anyway (unless their best play is to sac, either way you have the advantage). With slow Parting Shot, not only do you not do any damage, but you take a full-powered hit before you pivot, force out the opposing Pokemon on the next turn like normal, and end up with no lasting or even temporary effect. You will rarely ever enjoy the advantage of tanking a -1 attack unless the opponent is in some sort of desperate state.

Fast Parting Shot at least provides the benefit of a -1 attack to switch into. Where slowCAP would take a full (neutral or super-effective) hit as its teammate takes no damage, fastCAP would take no damage while its teammate takes a weakened (and likely resisted) blow. As both or these builds would result in a switch advantage and neither would do any actual damage, the slowCAP scenario comes across as fairly useless altogether, plausibly not worth a moveslot. The fastCAP scenario, on the other hand, effectively decreases the overall damage done to the team, increases the longevity of its teammates, and could potentially allow a greater variety of teammates to check a given opposing Pokemon, sitting there at -1 Atk/SpA while you choose what to send in.

It is possible that going fast may still not be enough to earn Parting Shot a moveslot. After all, if you are pivoting into resisted hits, taking those hits from a -1 attacker is not some enormous coup. In order to be optimally useful, I think it would be good to pair Parting Shot with some role-compressing moves like Taunt or Wish that directly take advantage of the opponent's weakened stats, that can cause switches in their own right, and that provide general utility for the team (fast Taunt + Parting Shot vs. stall or bulky offense could be niche-worthy, maybe?).

Parting Shot is a support move, like it or not, so a supportive direction (PS+utility+2 attacks) may not be the worst idea in the world. If we go in a primarily offensive direction (PS+3 attacks), we run the risk of not incentivizing the use of Parting Shot at all, presuming we give the CAP some decent coverage options. I still would like the CAP to be offensively threatening enough to force switches and participate in pivoting chains (maybe with one good STAB move and one strategic coverage move, e.g. Tornadus-T), but overall I think the optimal choice here is fast support (while acknowledging support and offense are not mutually exclusive, as others have pointed out).

 

[Krazyguy75]

Using Parting Shot like Volt Switch/U-Turn is a waste of the move. Any use of PS in that was will be inferior, as you are not taking advantage of PS abilities. Switching in a counter like you would with VS/UT means that you mostly wasted the -1, as they'd still be forced to make the same choices, save that they'll now lean more towards switching.

The only place where they are different is in PS's ability to help other pokemon (that aren't a true counter) setup.

 

[Project_Mars]

Oh man, can't believe I almost missed this. Anyways: Regardless of how fast the Parting Shooter is, it will definitely appreciate a way to come in on multiple Pokemon fairly easily, ala Lando-T and Rotom-W. Actually, despite the differences in PS and VoltTurn, I feel those are two good examples of how we could build a Parting Shooter. I do disagree with the assesment that going in a more offensive direction would dissuade more people from going 3 attacks + PS vs 4 attacks, but do agree that some care would be needed. In fact 2 attacks + PS + Support Move would probably work best for PS'mon regardless of speed. Both would like being able to set down a hazard or status a switch in if they desire, depending on how the player feels the opponent would react to PS'mon's arrival. A slower PS'mon could potentially be a potent wall if it had a means to recover HP, incidentally.

Honestly, I was more neutral on the matter before starting this post, but the more I wrote, the less I could really see a major benefit to a slower Parting Shooter vs a faster one: most of the differences I thought were there are not, or not as pronounced, while a faster Parting Shooter would potentially have more of an ability to force switches by making it harder to call a bluff if you want to use Parting Shot to double switch.

 

[snake]

One way to incentivize Parting Shot is to have two offensive STABs with great neutral coverage. This way, we don't have to load a ton of coverage moves onto CAP22, and it can afford to run a utility move alongside its two STAB moves and Parting Shot. If its STAB moves (or move if it's monotype) don't get great coverage, it will have to run coverage moves, which could dissuade people from running it. I don't mean to polljump at all, but I think it's good to think about before we move on to the Typing stage.

 

[KrazyCake]

I think a FPS user will be able to setup better than a SPS user. Being fast does not mean it will have to lose its bulk a fast mon can be bulky at the same time we all know this! Also as sparktrain has said a mon can be both offensive and supportive so being fast will really help both of these to work as being slow can only help one in my mind :P The argument for this capmon being able to use choice scarf while not a bad idea will just not work especially if you want people to use Parting Shot more than 25% of the time as it will not help the mon in anyway shape or form. Fast is always better in my opinion!!

 

[Scoopapa]

Using Parting Shot like Volt Switch/U-Turn is a waste of the move. Any use of PS in that was will be inferior, as you are not taking advantage of PS abilities. Switching in a counter like you would with VS/UT means that you mostly wasted the -1, as they'd still be forced to make the same choices, save that they'll now lean more towards switching.

The only place where they are different is in PS's ability to help other pokemon (that aren't a true counter) setup.

I want to elaborate on this. It doesn't necessarily have to be a setup, but I think the point is that it expands the options of switch-ins that you have available. As soon as you see the team preview you often can identify which of your pokemon are going to play what role in a match. For instance, which mon can break their core, which can sweep a weakened team, how important is your SR setter getting in early, etc. Putting the opponent at -1 increases the chance that the pokemon you get to switch in is the one that can accomplish your current objective.

 

[sparktrain]

Seeing as it's been 24 hours since I posted the warning, I'm gonna go ahead and finish up this thread. I feel as though several posts (Korski's third paragraph especially so) did a good job of highlighting the benefits and drawbacks of Fast Parting Shot vs Slow Parting Shot. I'll repost it here for reference:

Fast Parting Shot at least provides the benefit of a -1 attack to switch into. Where slowCAP would take a full (neutral or super-effective) hit as its teammate takes no damage, fastCAP would take no damage while its teammate takes a weakened (and likely resisted) blow. As both or these builds would result in a switch advantage and neither would do any actual damage, the slowCAP scenario comes across as fairly useless altogether, plausibly not worth a moveslot. The fastCAP scenario, on the other hand, effectively decreases the overall damage done to the team, increases the longevity of its teammates, and could potentially allow a greater variety of teammates to check a given opposing Pokemon, sitting there at -1 Atk/SpA while you choose what to send in.

The overall reduction of damage provided by Parting Shot is an incredibly important point to consider when it comes to the effectiveness of FPS vs SPS, and looking back at one of our starting questions (what is the ideal way to use Parting Shot?), I find it important for us to focus towards this as we move forward. As such, we should aim towards making CAP 22 a relatively fast user of the move that has methods of forcing out the opposition, be it through offensive presence, support/utility options, or some combination thereof. Having a faster Parting Shot user will allow us to place a greater emphasis on CAP 22's offensive typing, as opposed to a slower user which would need to be more heavily geared towards being able to tank hits before using Parting Shot.

Alright, let's move onto the typing discussion!

Hawaiian Monk Seal - Neomonachus schauinslandi