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CAP 23 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by jas61292, Aug 9, 2017.

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  1. Victor S. Court

    Victor S. Court

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    Yes, but if CAP23's only way to trapping is via Fairy Lock, this can be way easier to play around for oponent -and more rewarding- and really riskier for player to try this strategy

    Let's suppose CAP23 is weak to Zygarde and is designed to remove opposing spiners

    If I know this and CAP23 is at KO range, but I know it'll try to use Fairy Lock, I'd change to Zygarde, then next turn CAP23 would trapped and Zygarde could easily use Dragon Dance.

    That'd make CAP23 role pretty unconsistent and risky. It has its ways of course, you could put CAP23 a good bulk to take even resisted hits, and adding a pivot move like U-turn to mitigate the effect of being trapped in a unfavorable match up (just giving examples, I'm not suggesting something still about future parts of CAP23's process) but it could add certain unnecesary risk to a concept which, at least in my humple opinion, It'd need consistency to be efective.

    It's an interesting approach and certainly workable, but it's risky and there are more probabilities to mess up CAP23's concept with Fairy Lock

    ---

    Changing a bit the topic, and to avoid double posting, I was thinking if it would it be possible using binding moves with an offensive approach, after all, offensive approach with Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle or defensive approach via chip damage are not necessarily the only ways to achieve CAP23's concept. It could be a mix of both (for example, Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle with Toxic to act as a stallbreaker or Binding moves to take advantage of chip damage to make easier to CAP23 to lure an KO certain threats) but regardless of the trapping move chosen, I think an offensive approach is the most desired course of this project due to having more different ways to take advantage of trapping
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  2. Darklatias92

    Darklatias92

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    This got me thinking… there is actually an even more reliable way to accomplish this idea without necessarily sacrificing CAP23: Eject Button.

    Basically, say that we follow a speedy approach with CAP23, either by giving it enough speed or something like Prankster, and it takes an hit from the chosen trappable target after using Fairy Lock. CAP23 would switch out thanks to Eject Button, and CAP23's player could send out the appropriate Pokémon to use the trapped opponent as setup / Substitute bait, or to cripple the opposing 'mon or straight up take it down.

    This strategy could be used again at a later point of the game when CAP23 lives out its usefulness, allowing the CAP23 player to potentially take down two opposing Pokémon, if CAP23 is played correctly.

    In other words, CAP23 would essentially encompass the popular Eject Button Toxapex + Dugtrio core in a single teamslot.

    However, I don't think this eventual strategy is mutually exclusive with the Z-Trap, Setup Trapper and the other approaches. It could have a niche as "emergency button" for some teams, while the other strategies would be its main purpose. If all, this would make CAP23 a bit more versatile in its trapping duties.
  3. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
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    I wouldn't discount the offensive pressure of partial trapping moves. while I do think Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot can serve an important role as being a STAB move that offers some role compression, I would note that a set consisting of something like [STAB SS/AS] / Dual STAB / Coverage / Utility could also swap out the last two and run something like [STAB SS/AS] / Dual STAB / Partial Trap / [Perish Song / Toxic] and remain an offense oriented threat. Just noting this for posterity that against super-passive opponents like Chansey, a Partial Trap move + Perish Song is a guaranteed KO, while using a Partial Trap + Status, especially Toxic will easily get an opponent into KO range even if you switch out in the middle of the residual damage buildup to retain CAP for later.

    Generally speaking I'd like to encourage us to run as many different viable trapping options as possible, with a FOCUS on offense oriented trapping just to conduct an experiment on maximizing the viability of Trap Moves on a Pokemon.
  4. Victor S. Court

    Victor S. Court

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    There is a trouble with that, and that means it's an one-time trick, and at least how I see it, it'd better if CAP23 can make trapping in a more consistent way.

    However, that's actually an interesting approaching, I'm just a bit concerned what would happen after CAP23 would use Fairy Lock, would it become a deadweight during the match? Or is it supposed that'd be to bring a cleaner in late-game?
  5. Sereg

    Sereg

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    I'm aware. My point was that if you run both Fairy Lock and an offensive fairy move in the same set, you can choose which to spend your Z-move on depending n the situation as they both use the same Z-crystal.
    I think Ingrain has its advantages. With a high HP stat, you're getting decent recovery and by avoiding phasers, you can prevent loss of your boosts, especially if you used a z-move to gain them. You really don't want to be phased out after using a Z-move for the purpose of getting boosts. (Also, if Cap 23 is ghost type, it can switch out anyway, though that may be going against concept).

    We don't make custom moves anymore.

    Anyway, I agree that being able to use multiple trapping strategies is better. It makes the pokemon more unpredictable and fun to experiment with, while learning as much as possible about the concept and avoiding non-trapping sets from overshadowing trapping sets too much, meaning it is the most pro-concept.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  6. Hesh Kadesh

    Hesh Kadesh

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    Already it feels like we're going "off mission" with people saying "lets counter X pokemon" as a potential, and could lead to a gradual devolution of the game; with only 6 slots available to the team, it simply becomes a matter of "did you bring X to counter Y lynchpin" even more so than it already is. Tomohawk is very prevalent - it was designed as such, and IMHO, without wanting to piss on the parade of the guys who created it, a poor implementation of the concept in how dominant it became. If Tomohawk is so capable, and now we're developing a counter for Tomohawk, well there's basically a core straight up without any thought past that. It's only going to hurt the meta And we've already seen lots of occasions where a CAP was designed around Countering X, or working with Y, and as the game progressed, X fell out of favour, or Y was banned.

    For all the sisyphean labour it may be, and as much as I respect the abilities of Deck Knight as a battler, I'm heavily against any possible idea of declaring X pokemon to be countered by CAP23, and with all the more respect, if we were to develop a counter to Tomohawk, then that should have been slated, and voted for. I mean, I don't have a problem if CAP23 ends up countering Tomohawk; but that can be defined as the CAP process progresses; during typing, suggest Ghost/Dark or Ghost/Electric. Give it Noble Roar, or Eerie Impulse, during the moveset discussion and boom, no-more Tomohawk. They resist and ignore it's STABs, and during the stat stage, ensure that it has a Speed of 86+ with Priority; the core concept should NOT be corrupted or changed during Step 1 in the process. That's my 2c, anyway, for what little it's worth.

    There's also the question of what does it being offensive achieve? The downsides I see are;
    - Limited Base Power. BP80 is fine, but it's not 90, and it's not 120 (despite 100% Accuracy), but it's hardly ground breaking. Dhelmise might be gash, but it's got 131 Attack, and even that cannot get a Guaranteed OHKO against Clefable. It's a 2HKO move. Heavy Slam is an OHKO. So, being offensive with a trap move means ensuring that the trap move is merely replicating what the better offensive move can do. Spirit Shackle is 10PP, which on a 2HKO turns it into being comparative to 5PP moves, while Heavy Slam's OHKO is 10PP vs Anchor Shots 20PP (which is then divided by 2 because of the low base damage). This is with STAB, and 131 for the base attack. To have Spirit Shackle or Anchor Shot actually do anything is to require STAB (or replicate it in someway, like Steelworker, or Huge Power etc)
    - So, we're already having to choose between Ghost, or Steel.
    - Trying to create an offensive mon with a Trapping Move is sacrificing killing power for the ability to trap; the problem is that the Trapping Move has to be worthwhile, or else you're just running a generic offensive pokemon that has the gimmick that it can occasionally trap an opponent with one of its STABs.
    - If you don't give it the STAB (pseudo or otherwise), then you might as well run a generic trapping move, but then you're limited to being an offensive pokemon that only has 3 slots to work with.

    Run a defensive one, and you've got free selection of what Trapping Move to run; doesn't matter if Bind only does 10BP and has no STAB (or even if it did, so what? It's now 15BP wooo). Give it a Grip Claw, and it does 87.5% damage guaranteed over 7 turns (or Binding Band to do a guaranteed 67% damage over 4 turns), and you otherwise have all the way to play around between typing, assisting moves, exactly how defensive you want to go. Do you make it bulky by debuff or selfbuff? What type do you run? Ghost, to give immunity to mirror match trap? Do you want it to counter Shed Shell/Leftovers and give it Knock Off, and do you want that Knock Off to be a damage dealer? Do you want to make Toxic+Trap a thing against all mon? Then suggest Corrosion or Normalize (except for Pesky Ghosts, but they're pretty hard counter to the concept in any case). Alternatively, what other Chip Damage is there; Sandstorm/Hail/Will O Wisp/Ghost Curse. Do you want to punish switchers? Suggest Stakeout/Pursuit. Do you want it to be something that can put momentum back in your court by forcing an opponent to stop you doing X to be a force multiplier such as by being a Cleric, or have it be able to boost its offense; is it worthwhile suggesting Slow Start for an ability? Do you want to be a Stat Cleaner/resetter? Do you want to build up offense by using "ramp up" moves like Fury Cutter/Ice Ball/Roll Out, and is it worthwhile supporting those moves to let them "set up" against a mon effectively until it's at ridiculous levels; for example, using a Metronome with a Fury Cutter is going to give a flat +40% boost to its 160BP.

    Comments like "Toxic+Binding move are boring and teach us nothing" are brain dead answers. Nearly every Pokemon has Toxic available to be taught to it. It's not going to tread on the toes of mons who can already do it, and even if it did, it's hardly a meta-defining strategy that needs to be countered or built around. The lack of Whirlpool Fini (being in the collective bottom 11% of "Other" moves) is endemic of its lack of viability, and shouldn't ever used to say that "Defensive Sucks because all it can do is Toxic+Bind". If you see that as the only possibility for a defensive trapping mon, then perhaps you need to go sit down in a corner.

    However, what I personally think is the most important effect that this concept has is that it will be most obvious in that it's going to affect the meta in quite a reasonable amount if we can get the Trap effect to be debilitating enough - it's going to encourage a lot of Ghosts, obviously, and then things which counter Ghosts; as well as reduce the efficiency of mon who cannot handle the rise of Ghost-types, as well as lead to a rise of mon like Kerfluffle or otherwise able to switch out of a trap; like Volt Switch Koko. That's something which is going to indirectly affect the use of Tomohawk, even if albeit slightly.

    The risk from being offensive is that it ends up no different from any other offensive mon, or has the "gimmick" of having to use a Trapping move to complete its task (which it's even less capable at, because it's having to play around with 4MSS when one slot is already taken). Either you force the switch on CAP23's entering the battle or your opponent sacks his own mon to identify the set and potential coverage, and then sends in his own counter. With a defensive mon, there are plenty of mind games you can play, and can provide multiple sets; which actually enhances the viability - give it some offensive moves like a 2 Turn Move, or one which Ramps Up in its effectiveness, or some self set up moves (based off a lower offensive presence) or set-up Abilities like Moxie or Beast Boost, give it a Cleric Combination like Wish/Aromatherapy and let it be a Slow Pivot, or give it stereotypical walling capabilities through things that can vary from Self Set-Up, Recovery (through Recovery moves, Draining Recovery Moves, or Leftovers/Leech Seed), Debuff (through Will O Wisp, Intimidate or Stat Decreasing Moves) make it a multiple Chip Damaging pokemon through multiple moves like Leech Seed, Will O Wisp, Toxic, Sandstorm, Hail in conjunction with the residual damage from the Binding Moves, be a switch punisher (through Pursuit, and possibly StakeOut, Entrainment), or be a Stallbreaker through things like Heal Block, Gravity or Taunt. You can still use Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle as the offensive mon there. On top of that, you've got potential to discuss things like Perish Song, or maybe even an Unaware+Swagger combo (although I'm lairy of that gimmick) which otherwise just flat out do not work without the trapping or binding moves moves, and simply take too long when you have a more fragile purely offensive pokemon.

    The questions come from how resilient do you need it to be initially, what Binding Moves do you want to be ignored by typing/ability combinations (Ghost walls all but can be countered by a niche Soak, Levitate/Flying for Sand Tomb, Water Absorb/Storm Drain/Dry Skin for Water, Flash Fire for Fire, Wonder Guard because Shedninja's gonna be a bitch to counter in general unless it has Fire Spin or Aerilate as an option), and whether you could contemplate using the -ize or -ate abilities to make get a more powerful Normal, or an Ice, Electric, Flying or Fairy type.

    The fact that the "defensive" pokemon can theoretically run offensive abilities, but can only do so provided it a; has the ability to set up, and b; has to use the trapping ability of its moves to do so is limited to only having 3 move slots actually helps in not making the mon ridiculous OP in that it can run a variety of sets.

    Fairy Lock cannot really be used in this manner; Fairy Lock could conceivably be included as part of the eventual moveset - particularly if the merits of Pixelate are discussed, but it can only really effect multi-battles when you have a second pokemon who can deal the damage to a mon that otherwise wants to escape.

    I've probably repeated myself a couple of times, and it's probably rambled, but TL:DR, Offensive Trapping based around Spirit Shackle is very limiting and is basically de-rigeur for CAP discussion, and is more an exercise in using Showdown for balancing purposes to calculate which mons you wish to threaten, and ensuring that you don't go over the threshold of where X Coverage move has to utilize Y Trapping move. A defensively oriented, binding move focused mon that has multiple 3-move Sets which can be dropped and splashed around will be a much more preferential pokemon from the CAP Process perspective, and can effectively adapt to the metagame as further CAP's get added. It saves having the niche of being "X-mon counter", even if that niche is one as nigh ubiquitous as Tomo.

    For those of you who've got this far, fair play. I probably would have given up, so cheers.
  7. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
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    We have a Threats Discussion that exists explicitly for the purpose of generalizing Pokemon CAP should be effective against. That thread comes after typing but obviously when assessing the concept we want to have an idea of what kind of targets this Pokemon can work against.

    If Tomohawk gets mentioned a lot, it's not because the concept is changing to Tomohawk Counter, but because Tomohawk is a competitively relevant threat that pivots in and out often in a match and often uses non-damaging and support moves to ease a switchin - and with the ban of Baton Pass it does not have an effective anti-trapping option in its movepool - it therefore serves as an effective example of the kinds of Pokemon it would be desirable to target.

    The result of this thread won't be "mon that traps Tomohawk and upsets the balance of the metagame" but it may be "Offensive trapping strategies against relevant targets with limited or no counterplay to trapping are the best way to realize this concept."
  8. Hesh Kadesh

    Hesh Kadesh

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    That's fair, turns out we're on the same wavelength and I'd misunderstood your use as Tomohawk as the example pokemon of one being countered, instead reading it as one that was to be designed to be countered. S'all gravy.
  9. G-Luke

    G-Luke We Eat Losers
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    I believe an offensive approach is the way to go, as it it nowhere as limiyed asthe defensive approach.

    I do want to add, however, that I would prefer using Binding Moves as the trapping tool of choice if we are to go the offensive route
  10. Okamu

    Okamu
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    Huh... welp, guess I might as well say something right? Sure.

    5. To make sure we have our bases covered, is Fairy Lock a move we want to explore in any capacity? Is it viable at all? Why or why not?

    I'll give this a quick run down. Yes, I believe we should explore Fairy Lock in some capacity, as it does have a few niche uses, which could be pulled into maybe one or two sets on TrapCAP. However, I do NOT believe that Fairy Lock should be our main trapping move. I'm personally not sure why people have got it into their heads that TrapCAP cannot run two types of trapping moves to achieve different effects, as I don't recall an only-one-trap-move clause being instituted by anyone running the thread or by the concept itself (maybe I'm blind though, who knows?). Personally, I would even go so far as to say limiting TrapCAP to only one type of trap move would be detrimental to the project. Is it not more beneficial (as someone else mentioned earlier) to TrapCAP's viability if it can run different styles of trapping sets to increase its unpredictability, helping make the trap moves in and of themselves a bit more useable?

    Regardless, I digress, back to Fairy Lock. As for whether it is viable or not, I feel that it has most definitely been undersold here. Yes, it only provides one turn of trapping and also traps the user, those can be certainly considered as downsides in some capacity. BUT, as people here have already pointed out, there are very effective ways to use it. I personally am very intrigued by the Eject Button concept earlier, as it allows for a new Mon to come in and potentially OHKO the trapped opponent mon, not once in a battle, but twice if the eject button goes off properly and ALSO when TrapCAP is killed off later in the battle. It has two chances to greatly benefit its team by ensuring OTHER POKEMON can land their Super Effective Super Critical Z Move Power moves or what have you. In addition, consider that Fairy Lock can achieve a similar theme as other trapping moves when run as a pivoting set. Fairy Lock whatever comes in to screw with TrapCAP if you're able to, then VoltTurn out to a solid check/counter (granted this requires speediness, which may be poll jumping a bit) before the opponent attacks, potentially reversing the pressure dynamic of the situation. Imagine being able to send in Specs Analytic Volkraken in some version of this scenario. That's a free shot at pretty much anything with those super potent moves.

    Long story short, I think Fairy Lock has potential in a few sets, and should be at least tangentially explored if possible, as is consistent with the project's goal of exploring trapping mechanics. Though I do NOT believe it should be the main trapping move TrapCAP can utilize. By extension, I don't believe TrapCAP should be limited to only one trap move in general, for the sake of potential unpredictability and thereby viability.

    6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

    Allow me to tweak this answer a bit for my own tastes. I am not necessarily as much FOR an offensive strategy as I am AGAINST a stalling strategy. As has been pointed out previously in the thread, a more defensive style of trapper takes time to establish its dominance in the battle. First it has to trap. Then it has to Toxic. By then it probably has to heal up, and if we were to make it bulky enough that it doesn't need to, then that's just a whole different set of problems (such as why bother using the trapping moves instead of just using it as a defensive pivot or tank or wall). After that though, then maybe you start attacking with something, by which point the five turns of a binding move are almost up (If binding band is in use, then you lack an item slot, giving up leftovers, necessitating the use of a healing move to maintain relevance, ergo taking up more turns of the trap effect by healing, lessening stall potential, etc.). Generically, I see defensive trapping as too straightforward to be viable. Consider the only currently relevant mon who can use it: Heatran. The reason that trapping effect is so potent is because it's usually unexpected. The viability of the mon via other sets makes trapping unexpected, encouraging the opponent to make plays that lead to traps and potent stalling. Now, if TrapCAP were to focus solely on defensive trapping, the linearity would make it unviable simply by its one-track nature, or we'd have to make other sets for it that also work that aren't stall-traps to increase its unpredictability. What would these other sets be? They can't be other defensive trapping moves, as that still makes the sets linear, which necessitates either offensive or supportive trapping (which would likely prove difficult due to stat distribution), or ignoring trapping sets at all. In essence, from my point of view, defensive and stall-based trapping is limiting to the idea of exploring trapping moves, as the methodology is already fairly well known and such a build could result in set linearity and as a result reduced viability. For this reason, I particularly prefer an either offensive or supportive style of TrapCAP that is able to control switching to its own advantage or to aid in predictions for other Pokémon on its team. That is where I see most of the explorability and potential in trapping.

    Also, since Hesh's post came up while I was still drafting this, I'm gonna go through some of the problems I see with defensive trapping from his point of view as well.

    This is fundamentally subversive in how it addresses trapping moves. Technically offensive move pairings can be done with any trapping move as well, there is no "Only-one-trapping-move" limit, as I previously stated. It simply happens to be that AS and SS happen to be very good for those strategies. The same can be said about defensive, AS and SS are far better for stalling set ups than binding moves, as they prevent all hope of escape for mons caught and without Ghost typing or pivot moves, allowing a guaranteed kill through Toxic or whatever you're doing. This cannot be said about binding moves, which allow the opponent to escape to a possible cleric or better suited mon to handle the defensive strat after a few turns. The argument that offensive limits move choice is about as logical as saying defensive options limit move choice, because it's the SAME SITUATION. You could choose other moves, but some moves are just better for your strategy. There are ways to work with both, (and I personally believe that lies in a middle supportive-offense stance).

    Again, the same can be said for an offensive role. Defense has many options, sure, but they can't all be run conjointly. You can't have both Stakeout AND Corrosion. You eventually have to pick one. The essence of the sets all comes to the same source: passive damage building up due to trapping. Allow me to stress this idea. Variations on a theme ARE NOT different themes. Offensive has options as well. Do we want a fast Z move attacker? A bulky set-up sweeper? A fast set-up sweeper? A coverage demon? A STAB Spammer? A switch punisher? These are all variants on an offensive style each targeting different aspects of offense. In the same way, different styles of build-up damage do not change the problem of build-up/debuff strategies, being that they take a while to set up. When using trap MOVES, which have already been established to have a 'weakness' in allowing the opponent to switch in a good check, the slow-to-effectiveness issue of defensive trapping is further amplified, bringing into question whether it's a the optimal way to approach trapping as a whole.

    I think you're misunderstanding what we mean by 'offensive.' We're not talking about a sweeper that uses trapping moves to do its job. There are obviously not enough powerful trap moves to do that. Instead, we're talking about a mon that can use the benefits of trap moves to put pressure on the opponent IN CONJUNCTION with other offense-oriented moves. Strong attacks, good coverage, pivoting possibly, etc. Implying that the only use of trap moves on an offensive mon is as an attack with an extra benefit is honestly just wrong, and not what was asked in the original question six (notice the "alongside [other moves]" part. Also, why even bring up 4MSS? Yes, it might occur with the offensive variant depending on how the rest of this goes, but defensive sets violate 4MSS far worse. Think about it. You need 1. the trapping move, 2. the passive damage move (because a weather setting ability isn't going to do much if the opponent is carrying lefties), and 3. a probable healing move. That leaves exactly ONE SLOT for an attack of choice, in which you allege can be fitted a wide plethora of options. I'm sorry, but that remark didn't even consider your own strategy. The rest of the paragraph that follows that quote, bar the last sentence, is essentially the same as my second rebuttal, so I don't feel the need to address it any further.

    So, I have to ask... you literally say here that offensive Pokémon don't run defensive sets, which is common sense, but then you allege that's a bad thing? Why should an offensive mon be running defensive sets in the first place? I cite Cawmodore as my principle example here: defensive sets on offensive mons shouldn't be working, and if they do, then it's not really that offensive of a mon (for OU at least). You're also implying that an offensive trapper must be fast and fragile, which is not at all the case. For a pivot based mon, maybe that's a more solid argument, but offense, as I've stated before, comes in many forms.

    And to wrap this part of my post up...

    As I've already pointed out, binding moves are not necessarily the best choice for a defensive, passive damage/debuff/stall TrapCAP, and 4MSS affects this strategy quite hard due to the sheer amount of move types you need to account for. I don't disagree that having many sets is a good thing. I understand that quite clearly. However, with all the more niche options provided to the defensive orientation, I don't completely trust that it can truly differentiate its sets from the other main sets, and I would hate to see abilities (which have been identified as a major boon to the idea of trapping) dedicated solely to one or two specific sets. It seems far more limiting that the offensive variant.

    TL;DR: Supportive-Offensive variants of TrapCAP are equally able if not more able to have a variety of sets compared to defensive sets. This can be accomplished through the use of pivoting moves, Z-moves, intelligent coverage allocation, and good ability decisions. However, the most important variant in these sets will be the use of multiple trapping moves, preferably of different types to accommodate varying strategies. The interesting options Fairy Lock can offer allow it to fall into the latter category of something worth exploring as one of these "side-sets" for TrapCAP.
  11. nyttyn

    nyttyn "Can't repeat the past? ... Why of course you can!"
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    Every single turn you do in pokemon has to do something if you want to win.

    If you use Whirlpool, Infestation, or god forbid, Fairy Lock, you've done almost nothing (or completely nothing) but given your opponent a free swap into something that CAP 23 cannot threaten. It doesn't matter that you know they won't swap either - they know you're going to swap as well, lest you lose a mon, and will at best deliver a smack predicting the swap, or at worst cause you to take a huge hole or lose the game outright. Tapu Fini only works because of surprise value and CAP 23 won't have that advantage in mind, considering we're building it to use a trapping move on every set ideally.

    You simply lose too much when an opponent swaps to something that manhandles CAP 23 if you chose to use a weak as piss (or entirely undamaging) binding move. Best case scenario you've swapped CAP 23 in via double swap or a pokemon fainting and only your mon that's swapping in gets slapped - worst case, both CAP 23 and whatever swaps in get smacked, or your opponent gets hazards up, or any other number of things that might occur because you gave your opponent, effectively, a free turn. And at that point you might as well just drop the trapping move for something that doesn't leave you behind a turn in momentum if it whiffs.

    If CAP 23 is going to be a viable trapper without having some sort of incredibly limited movepool and a bloated set of defensive stats (and make no mistake Tapu Fini only gets away with the surprise set because it's stupidly bulky and has misty terrain to at least give you some benefit if it has to swap out), it has to be offensive and use one of Spirit Shackle, Anchor Shot, or Thousand Waves. Volt Turn, for example, only works because you're always garunteed at least some damage worst case scenario - dry baton pass never really caught on (outside of celebi weirdness a few times) simply because doing nothing but switching for a turn is a huge loss if it doesn't pay off, and trapping and doing practically nothing (even whirlpool will hit for less than a wet fart on a residual trapper set) is even worse because you don't even get the benefit of immediately responding to your opponent's switch.

    Edit: Or to put it in another way: Why should I risk having and using Whirlpool and wasting a turn when I could Stealth Rock, or Toxic, or Will-o-Wisp, or something else instead? At least with the offensive moves you have the benefit of being able to exploit trapping if it works out, and even if it doesn't you still at least get the damage which is a concrete, tangible benefit. If Whirlpool and friends smacks a disadvantageous target to swap in on you've accomplished fuck all for that turn.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  12. boxofkangaroos

    boxofkangaroos this is the day of the expanding man
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    One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is the age of the binding moves. We have had moves like Wrap, Fire Spin, Bind, and Clamp since Gen 1, and they are all fairly widely distributed. Because these moves are so old, we have had a lot of time to experiment with them, try them out on various sets, and see how they fare against different opposing archetypes, but for reasons stated by several users before me, these moves have always been mediocre at best. Fast forward to Gen 7, where we see reliable offensive moves for the first time (Spirit Shackle, Anchor Shot, and Thousand Waves), but they are exclusive to one Pokémon each and for the most part these Pokémon are less than stellar in the CAP metagame. Because of this, we have hardly had any opportunity to explore and learn about these moves, and I firmly believe that should be the objective of the CAP 23 project. It seems counterintuitive to opt for the binding moves – why deploy a strategy that has been tested for over 20 years, when the CAP Project's fundamental goal is to learn more about Pokémon?
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  13. Project_Mars

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    6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

    I would think that there is probably room for both on the same movepool, with the Binding Move + Residual damage route appearing to favor dealing with stall pokemon easier while an offensive set with Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle appearing to prefer isolating and taking down a more specific type of threat... but why do something like Fire Spin/Toxic/Taunt/Filler when Anchor Shot/Toxic/Taunt/Filler can arguably work better due to the fact that you won't have to worry about Fire Spin running out and giving the opponent a chance to switch. On the other hand, since Binding moves deal a percentage of the target's Max HP at the end of the turn, the damage output for that set should be a bit more consistent than one with Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle due to the fact that you may need to deal with Physically Bulky Pokemon. In the end though, I would say that as far as individual moves are concerned, Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle is arguably better than binding moves as they seem to be able to deal with different types of threats easier and packs more of an immediate punch than binding moves. However, as far as strategy goes...
    [​IMG]
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
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    In a counterpoint to boxofkangaroos's post, while the partial trapping moves have been around forever there has never been a mon able to adequately exploit them, and their duration lasting a minimum 4 turns has only been around since Gen 5.

    I'd like to posit right now that if Toxapex learned Perish Song it would be banned from OU for running the supremely obnoxious set of Infestation/Perish Song/Baneful Bunker/Recover. ANY Pokemon Toxapex trapped that could not pivot out or Rapid Spin away Infestation (which could still be blocked by Baneful Bunker) or 2HKO Toxapex would lose to it. It would be forcing switchins constantly and easily winning damage wars thanks to Regenerator, or else forcing vast swathes of the metagame to run Shed Shell.

    Alternatively since there are so many binding moves, if a Pokemon for example had all of them along with Technician it would basically approximate Hidden Power Fire, Water (Physical and Special), and Ground (Physical). Few Pokemon with Technician have access to one of these moves, much less to all 3, and no Pokemon adequately explores this particular combination of legal mechanics.

    Basically, the binding moves have mostly been treated by Gamefreak as an add-on to Pokemon movepools rather than a specifically explored niche. The exception of course being Heatran which of course uses it's signature partial trapping move to great effect.

    I'm not saying any of these things are a good way to go (I would actually like to avoid completely the "Perish Song Toxapex" theory route), what I an saying is there is significant fruitful ground to explore with the mechanical interactions of these moves.
  15. Rifou88

    Rifou88

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    6. Should we focus more on the binding move + residual damage / stall strategy for CAP23? Or, should we focus on the offensive strategy using primarily Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle as well as binding moves alongside Z-moves, pivot moves, etc.? Why is one better than the other?

    Many poeple answered that we should focus on the offensive strategy, but i think this is mostly because stall is a hated and boring strategy, which is a very subjective raison. And any way the meta also needs walls to be sane.
    It was also said that the defensive trapping is restricted to binding + long terme damage(/perish song) and that we couldn't learn anything of it. However, it can still teach us something, peraps even more than the anchor shot/spirite shackle base strategy since binding moves are older and still unexplored despite their great potential, while anchor shot and spirit shackel are already used in lower tiers and magma storm heatran is played in OU and CAP, so we know a bit more of them (even if agree that we can learn of the offensive trapping too).

    An other kind of defensive trapper that hasn't been much discusted is a suppurtive one. It could, for exemple, gain free turn for it's allies ( i know that the target isn't trapped any more if you switch out, but the opponent can't double switch, which mean that you gain the momentum. Fairy lock is also an option for a supportive trapper, to answer question 5) or even using more gimmick strategy like lower the attack/ special attack of the trapped mon and do what ever you want , like set hasards, pass which, etc. I know that it would use a lot of move slots, but i think it could work if we improve it a bit, for exemple with a healing ability.
  16. nyttyn

    nyttyn "Can't repeat the past? ... Why of course you can!"
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    Counter-point: Toxapex would only be able to get away with it because it's about as bulky as bulky gets, and any pokemon we make if we took a defensive oriented approach wouldn't be quite as bulky unless we wanted to make some monster that half the meta feared with no hope of stopping which would be...hilarious I guess? Probably not super productive, but hilarious.

    Only less than perfectly accurate, for an effect you can't use nine times out of ten. And keep in mind hidden power is almost never used anymore, 60 BP just does not get you anywhere at all.


    Also re: defensive trap and offensive trap on the same set: Keep in mind that stall trappers will, inevitably, take one of two routes. They will either toxic and wear the opponent down, or perish song. In both cases, you'd always run, say, Anchor Shot over Fire Spin because for the former, you do not want your opponent escaping before they're dead, which the six turn limit on the partial trapping moves will cause. That's best case scenario by the way, assuming we somehow make a pokemon with ungodly defensive stats to make up for the fact their held item slot will have to be given up for a grip claw if you don't want to be at the mercy of RNG twicefold (accuracy and then getting a four turn roll instead of a five turn), whom doesn't decide to forego trapping entirely with said defensive stats. And in the case of Perish Song, well. It also doesn't matter what residual damage you do because perish song is a 100% surefire kill (barring soundproof obv), so you might as well hit pokemon you can't stay in on a little bit harder.

    Please don't reply "mean look" because then you'll just run anchor shot still. Anchor shot is fairy lock that deals damage. It's a strictly superior move.
  17. Sereg

    Sereg

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    The advantage of binding moves over Anchor Shot would be in the case that the residual damage of the binding move when added to the damage from Toxic and the any other attacks you perform on the target ends up enough to KO the target prior to the binding move running out, but the damage from Anchor Shot, Toxic damage and any other attacks used is not enough damage to KO the target before it is able to KO the trapper.

    That is a very specific situation, but I think it is possible.
  18. nyttyn

    nyttyn "Can't repeat the past? ... Why of course you can!"
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    You have to keep in mind a lot of the things you want to trap as a stall mon will be able to recover their own HP as well, and that even in the best case you only kill in six turns with toxic alone.

    Assuming your move set looks like Toxic / Fire Spin / (Filler, likely Heal Bell so they can't toxic you in return) / Recover and in a dream world where you can get away with using a grip claw, you use Fire Spin. You have six turns left. You use Toxic. You now have five turns left. Toxic will not kill in five turns, and toxic + residual damage can be outlasted with Recover, as the damage dealt will be T1 1/16 + 1/8 T2 2/16 + 1/8 T3 3/16 + 1/8 T4 4/16 + 1/8 T5 5/16 + 1/8.

    Recover (even without leftovers) will easily out-last this, and you cannot re-apply the trapping move before the opponent has a chance to swap out, as subsequent partial trapping moves will not refresh the duration, and the duration only ends at the end of turn.

    There is no situation in which you would ever use Fire Spin and friends over Spirit Shackle and friends.
  19. Hesh Kadesh

    Hesh Kadesh

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    - Heal Block - super tasty as a Z-Move too thanks to the +2 SpA if you wanna run that way to turn what was once more defensively inclined into have some teeth - but Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle cannot make use of special attacks.
    - Knock Off IMHO is pretty much a given to be at least voted on its inclusion due to the threat that Shed Shell prevents to the concept, but being able to remove Leftovers is cherry. Scared about it running out? Pursuit is there to suggest, as is the potential for Stakeout to punish the switch-in and really cause the opponent the head ache of having to leave. Alternatively, Trick a Flame Orb as a Fire type onto a physical opponent for additional Bulk vs that mon, and stealing their Leftovers. Can always trick back afterwards
    - Taunt; try to recover/roost/set up/parting shot all y'all like.

    The complaints you have "oh the opponent can heal" is hardly a reason why a mon shouldn't have Binding Moves. "the opponent can heal" is a reason why Trapping moves shouldn't be taken ever, because the reason why you trap is to guarantee damage. If you can't guarantee that damage because the opponent can heal, then there's no point in ever running the trapping mon in the first place, and you should just take a generic offensive pokemon which doesn't have to rely on the gimmick of trapping.

    [​IMG]
    That's a 4 turn KO for Toxic/Trap. Grip Claw guarantees 7 turns, if you can stay alive long enough.

    View attachment 86709
    Binding Band+Toxic is a 3 Turn KO if you can deal 32% damage with your 2 other turns of attacks. Presuming one of those is Knock Off, then that's a BP97.5, possibly even STAB, and no Healing either. 4HKO guaranteed. And even then, the mon is poisoned, in range of Stealth Rock KO when it comes back in, and can always be hard switched out with Check/Counter to your check/counter anyway at that point.

    Replace Toxic with Burn from WOW; there's an additional 50% resistance to Physical, albeit at lower rate, or you can replace Burn with Leech Seed, or weather (rock getting a SpD boost in Sandstorm for example, or have it try and catch out an opponent after coming in under Aurora Veil/Screens.
    upload_2017-8-13_21-20-39.png

    I'm by no means saying that Toxic+Binding is an effective way to run (re Tapu Fini) and shouldn't be the focus of the concept - after all there are like 8 mons in existence which cannot learn Toxic, but I don't think that simply saying "Anchor Shot because Toxic is shit" is a valid reason to ignoring Binding Moves, especially when much of the same arguments can run against Anchor Shot (with the exception of it can swap out after turn 4-5/turn 7) when it should be dead anyway.
  20. snake_rattler

    snake_rattler CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
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    Alright everyone I think we need to move on in discussion. We've discussed specific trapping moves and their strengths and weaknesses, but I believe now is the time we move on to what role CAP23 should play. At this point, CAP23 should focus on a binding or trapping move, but Fairy Lock can be an alternative option. If discussion on Fairy Lock later on in the project isn't too distracting, I think this move could be worth thinking about, as it'd be another trapping option for CAP23 to use. Additionally this project might be one of the few times we'd be able to explore such a specific move. I think for now, we should focus on the more viable trapping moves, but unless there are serious objections to this, Fairy Lock should be considered later on in the moveset discussion.

    I think at this point, it's clear that CAP23 should focus on more offensive or supportive roles for trapping Pokemon, be it through boosting moves, hazard stacking, offensive Z-moves, coverage moves, or pivoting, etc. rather than using Toxic-stalling, residual damage, etc. The main issue with defensive sets is that it generally needs 5 moveslots to fully work: Binding Move / Toxic / Recover / Taunt / Refresh, otherwise it falls flat against defensive Pokemon who run Toxic or defensive Pokemon who run recovery. While yes, we could make CAP23 immune to Toxic or load it up with a bunch of gimmicks, but the fact that CAP23 can barely pull off the defensive set at all, especially with limited options (if you don't run Grip Claw of all things you risk not trapping the Pokemon fully), makes this path seem rather difficult. Trying to trap stuff in such an offensive metagame when you need 4 whole turns at least to chip down and KO something means you need an extremely bulky Pokemon, and by extension, if CAP23 is able to wall everything so well, it might as well run other supportive moves. Pyukumuku (a Pokemon with no attacking moves and a bunch of gimmicky moves) + a binding move should not be the end product of this CAP Process.

    Keep in mind though that this isn't me restricting off binding moves entirely. However, Nyttyn has shown that most binding moves have extreme opportunity cost attached to them, so we need to keep this in mind.

    Something that I feel like should be made clear now is that CAP23 shouldn't have to run a trapping move on every one of its sets. Granted, it should be defined by its use of trapping moves, but if you consider how Heatran works, it doesn't always run a trapping move. Tapu Fini also doesn't always run a trapping move. If CAP23 runs a trapping move on every set, then the trapping effect is extremely watered down. The opponent should fear that CAP23 will run the trap move, not expect it. CAP23 should be able to get by without the trap move, but at the same time, CAP23 should want to run the trap move for most of its sets.

    Now, let's discuss what sort of offensive / supportive strategy we want CAP23 to achieve:

    7. What kind of Pokemon should CAP23 aim to trap? Why should we target this group of Pokemon?
    8. What role should CAP23 play? How does this role work well with trapping moves? Should CAP23 have more than one role?
    9. If it's important that the trapping move isn't run on each set CAP23 runs, how can we ensure CAP23 won't always drop the trapping move? What are some other strategies that we can use to maximize trapping moves' effectiveness?

    To elaborate on these questions:
    Question 7 should be answered with a kind of Pokemon: this means you can say "pivots like Tangrowth and defensive Landorus" but you can't say "Tangrowth and Landorus-T."
    Question 8 should be answered with a role: this means you can answer with "pivot," "bulky sweeper," "tank," etc. and not "Dragon Dance sweeper."
    Question 9 helps us explore the opportunity cost of most binding moves and how trapping moves should be a "surprise." Again, keep in mind that although trapping should be CAP23's main role, it doesn't have to be its sole purpose.

    EDIT: Clarified Question 9.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  21. david0895

    david0895

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    7. What kind of Pokemon should CAP23 aim to trap? Why should we target this group of Pokemon?
    8. What role should CAP23 play? How does this role work well with trapping moves? Should CAP23 have more than one role?


    I don't know if there's a specific category that we need to trap, but I think that pivot is the best role that CAP23 can do.
    Since the trapped pokémon is forced to stay, you can advantage of this and switch-out into whatever you want.

    9. How can we ensure CAP23 won't always drop the trapping move? What are some other strategies that we can use to maximize trapping moves' effectiveness?

    Another good use of the trapping move can be the possibility of dealing heavy damage through a Z-move or a boosting move.
    If the trapping move is a bad coverage for CAP23, it can be removed, leaving at the opponent the fear that it can run the trapping move.
  22. nyttyn

    nyttyn "Can't repeat the past? ... Why of course you can!"
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    What kind of Pokemon should CAP23 aim to trap? Why should we target this group of Pokemon?
    What role should CAP23 play? How does this role work well with trapping moves? Should CAP23 have more than one role?


    I think I can answer all of these questions in one go, as the explanation for one kind of feeds into the others. Realistically speaking, CAP23 will be aiming to capture pokemon that cannot muster a counter offense, and either remove them from the equation or use their lack of ability to fight back to win the game or at the very least put an extreme amount of pressure on the opponent. If it's aiming at the former role, we have to keep in mind most pivots are immediately out of the equation, as U-Turn and Volt Switch bypass trapping effects.

    Either way, anything that can't stop CAP 23 and gets caught by a trapping move is, effectively, dead. However, this is incredibly difficult to do at the start of the match, and becomes easier and easier to do as the match goes on and pokemon either lose HP or outright faint, leaving it more and more likely your opponent will be forced to take a gamble or outright won't have anything left that won't get manhandled by CAP 23.

    Ergo, given that CAP 23 already naturally relies on the opponent running out of options for trapping to be a deadly effect, I believe it should take the role of a win condition. Basically, I believe the endgame for CAP 23, ideally, is to keep it in the wings until you can send it out and spam your trapping move to either punch holes in what remains, or snag something that can't do shit to you and set-up to win the game.

    An alternative option would to make it a burly attacker with powerful coverage options, whom uses the threat of trapping to predict and punish swaps, but I think that might be a bit too cute and isn't really differentiated enough from other pokemon who already slaughter switch-ins. And frankly, it's kind of a good deal more boring than the feeling of a good "gotcha" that a win condition role would provide.

    I don't think the whole "wear them down" option will work, it's a bit too cute and there's already pokemon who do it extremely well (Toxapex for a non-trapper, Tapu Fini).

    How can we ensure CAP23 won't always drop the trapping move?

    Simple.

    Give it Anchor Shot or Spirit Shackle and make it a physical Steel or Ghost. 80 BP spammable move (more so on the ghost side, since steel kinda blows and ghost punishes the only type that can avoid being trapped) that has the fun side effect of "win the game if you hit the right thing" means it'll be used on virtually every set. Unfortunately that's literally it for trapping moves we get access to (outside of thousand waves but lol legendary signature move), and I kind of have to bring up type here because if these are off-STAB options they run the real risk of simply being forsaken for more powerful options that sacrifice the gimmick that is trapping for something else.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  23. LucarioOfLegends

    LucarioOfLegends is Crazier Than You
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    7. What kind of Pokemon should CAP23 aim to trap? Why should we target this group of Pokemon?

    I think that the targets for this concept should target more passive, bulky Pokemon along the lines of Toxapex, as they are the most susceptable to trapping and have the least chance to fight back, which helps us immensely if we choose to go the route of hazard stacking and setup sweeping. Even if we go a less setup heavy route, their inability to fight back makes our choice of role much easier to execute. Although most pivots are not prime targets due to their pivoting moves (U-turn and Volt Switch), ones that do not have these moves, such as Tangrowth, would also be prime candidates for targetting.

    8. What role should CAP23 play? How does this role work well with trapping moves? Should CAP23 have more than one role?

    I personally believe that CAP 23 should execute two different roles: wallbreaker and pivot.

    A wallbreaker, specifically through offensive Z-moves, works incredibly well with trapping moves because of the fact that they can't avoid it without the usage of a pivoting move, a shed shell, or ghost typing. Trapping moves makes sure the opponent cannot switch out, and hence makes it so the Z-move is guaranteed to hit its intended target unless they carry a way out. This seems like an incredibly effective role that it could execute, so I think that this is one way that it should go.

    Pivot would also benefit greatly from trapping moves, as it means that CAP23 will always be able to pivot into a good situation for the user. Trapping move remove the fear of the dreaded double switch, so even when the pivot switches out into another Pokemon, it will be almost always be into an advantageous scenario for the user. Especially in the case of pivot moves, they would almost guarantee damage against the opponent with little risk because you wouldn't have to fear that double switch that can screw over these moves in various ways.

    9. How can we ensure CAP23 won't always drop the trapping move? What are some other strategies that we can use to maximize trapping moves' effectiveness?

    I personally think that these moves can effectively be used as alternative coverage options to other moves. While Fire Spin and friends may be weaker and less accurate than Hidden Power, simply the trapping effect makes it incredibly alluring as a move. Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle generally have nice neutral coverage against a decent number of mons, and supereffective attacks against Fairies without the specific typing is very appealing in the current generation, which has fairies by the truckloads. Of course, if your team needs to cover something else, it doesn't have to use it. Probably the most difficult thing with this idea however is making sure that we don't give it coverage options that completely overshadow all the others. However, I think this is a risk that we should be willing to take.

    Real quick, I just want to bring up the point of if we make Spirit Shackle/Anchor Shot STAB, what reason do we have to not run these moves? These moves are incredibly spammable due to thier neutral coverage, 100% accuracy, and 80 base power. Doing some research, there are only four physical Ghost type moves that have a higher base power than Spirit Shackle, which are Shadow Bone, Phantom Force, Shadow Force, and Spectral Thief. Shadow Force and Spectral Thief are legendary exclusive, Phantom Force requires two turns to use without a Ghostium Z, and Shadow Bone's difference in power is so marginal that Spirit Shackle would be picked nine times out of ten. Anchor Shot has a similar story, only the higher base power moves have accuracy problems instead. Because of these facts, there isn't really a reason not to bring these moves into battle on every occasion because of thier fantastic effect, which pretty much ruins the suprise factor that trapping and luring is supposed to provide.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  24. Salient

    Salient

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    What kind of Pokemon should CAP23 aim to trap? Why should we target this group of Pokemon?
    In theory, CAP23 should aim to trap Pokemon that threaten the user's team, or Pokemon that are unable to do significant amounts of damage to it while it either sets up, or breaks holes in the target. In reality, however, due to the nature of trapping moves, it'll more often than not be trapping its own checks/counters. This leads me to the next question...

    What role should CAP23 play? How does this role work well with trapping moves? Should CAP23 have more than one role?
    Personally, I think CAP23 should take the role of a late game sweeper, or open the path for an ally to come in and perform that role itself. For the former, its trapping move would allow it to take advantage of a weakened opponent that can't/doesn't want to switch in a counter to CAP23. For the latter, it allows CAP23 to trap in a Pokemon that normally counters one of its allies, and proceed to punch holes in it. For the last part of the question, I personally believe CAP23 should be able to perform more than one role, but all should sort of revolve around the idea of being a trapper.

    9. How can we ensure CAP23 won't always drop the trapping move? What are some other strategies that we can use to maximize trapping moves' effectiveness?
    As nyttyn said, giving it no better option is probably the best way. A special Fire-type that runs Magma Storm/Fire Spin, for example, shouldn't be given access to Flamethrower, Heat Wave or Fire Blast so it doesn't have the option to run anything better. A physical Ghost-type (as another example) shouldn't have much of a problem with choosing something over Spirit Shackle, as it's probably one of its best STAB options.
  25. EpicUmbreon29

    EpicUmbreon29

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    7. What kind of Pokemon should CAP23 aim to trap? Why should we target this group of Pokemon

    CAP23 should aim to trap walls and bulky pivots, with examples like Tomohawk, Pyroak, and Clefable. This group of Pokemon should be targeted because they are often the primary obstacle in the way of a win condition finishing off the opposing team.​

    8. What role should CAP23 play? How does this role work well with trapping moves? Should CAP23 have more than one role?

    As implied above, CAP23 should play a supportive role to its team as a wallbreaker, breaking down defensive monoliths in order to allow teammates to sweep or clean the opposing team.

    This role works well with trapping moves because losing the ability to switch out greatly increases the chance that bulky pivots or walls will be worn down by something they have difficulty saving themselves against. In the event that the opponent switches out and the trapping move hits something other than its originally intended target, the player can still turn that to their advantage using, as several people have pointed out, the lack of a double switch for the opponent. Switching to a Pokemon that counters what actually got trapped can give the player a free turn to do with what they please, which seems especially useful for setup, recovery, or hazard control. In other words, the trapping move still gained the player considerable momentum.

    I don't think the possibility of CAP23 being a setup sweeper holds up
    ; building a setup sweeper that aims to take advantage of trapping could certainly be very effective, but it would likely become an offensive behemoth that simply has to trap one of a few specific targets, boost to +6 in one or more stats, and instantly win. It would be like trying to play around Dugtrio when you have multiple Pokemon that it can OHKO, except if Dugtrio manages to switch in on one of them, the match is automatically over. Granted, the prevalence of Haze Tomohawk and the reality that a move will need to be used to trap the opponent make this a bit of an exaggeration, but I still think this is a route best avoided. No other role immediately jumps to my mind, although I think it would be good for CAP23 to function a bit like a utility counter, being able to take on different Pokemon based on its moveset, but not all at once. Unpredictability seems to be an important theme brought up many times throughout this thread, and I would agree that trapping becomes a bit more effective if the opponent needs to prepare for more than one cookie-cutter set, as it creates uncertainty over what to send in to deal with CAP23.​

    9. If it's important that the trapping move isn't run on each set CAP23 runs, how can we ensure CAP23 won't always drop the trapping move? What are some other strategies that we can use to maximize trapping moves' effectiveness?

    This goes back to the point I was making earlier about why trapping moves are effective. I think it essential that CAP23 be able to capitalize on its use of its trapping move once it has been used, regardless of whether or not it hits its intended target. I don't want this to be about making CAP23 a partner Pokemon, but I do think that the same things that might come in to counter CAP23 need to not be the same things that counter other offensive Pokemon, so that the latter group can capitalize from getting a free switch in. I think Anchor Shot and Spirit Shackle are both more effective options than Fire Spin and the like and would be more likely to be used, although I think options from either subset could work if we execute them properly. That being said, the ability of the former two to deal reliable and substantial damage is what I think our best reason to use them over the other subset is. We've already established we won't be going the way of KO via chip damage, and it's likely that anything we want to trap, we should be able to defeat in under 5 turns after trapping, so it's then more important for us to be able to punish the opponent for switching from what we want to trap than to get extra residual damage.

    In terms of other strategies to maximize effectiveness, the possibility of designing sets to be run with Z move variants of the trapping moves in question seems possible, but I think that the opportunity cost of such a set is too high. Even coverage Z moves would likely be more effective than Z move variants of the trapping ones, and altogether it would be best if CAP23 was not forced to rely on running a Z crystal to take out what it needs to.​
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