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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Concept Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Wyverii, Apr 9, 2012.

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  1. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    Well, that's the thing. The only move/ability that doesn't involve infatuation or lowering opponent stats is Rivalry. That's... pretty restricting.

    ---

    I think that there has been a lot of misplaced hate against some of the concepts because they might use weather or otherwise have something to do with it. This strikes me as extremely restricting. Whatever CAP we make probably will be influenced by weather effects, whether we like it or not. Are we also to strike Fire/Water/Grass/Steel/Ground/Rock/Ice from the typing stage? I think that that would be absurd.

    It's especially surprising for this to happen to something like the Hail concept, which fulfills the niche clause better than most of the other concepts. Hail is a really borderline effect in the current metagame, having little to no effect on OU, and yet it is also banished from the lower tiers, and sometimes a good hail team does come around. Yet, because it is a "weather condition", it's treated as if it's the same as all the others. Weather is not a collection of similar field effects and shouldn't be treated as such.

    Even my concept seems to be getting some criticism for somehow leading to weather. There are lots of subtle mechanics in moves and abilities that haven't really been tapped into outside of maybe balanced hackmons. Okay, the Mold Breaker supporter example I gave doesn't do a whole lot (it screws over... Espeon... and Jolteon... and Scald could burn Toxicroak). At any rate, though, there are a lot of possibilities for my concept. I do agree it needs some more clarity, though, since I see from some posts that people are completely missing the point.

    ---

    I also feel that a bunch of other good concepts are being shafted/ignored in favour of perhaps worse concepts that at least get mentioned. I'm not up for listing them right now, but I would like to encourage people to look through some more and find concepts that they like. Community support does matter, since it could convince the TL that a submission is a good one, or at least should be slated. I get that the slate can only be so big, but I think there are a few good submissions that are falling through the cracks.
  2. crazyhair3

    crazyhair3

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    Concept: Flexible Support
    Description: A support pokemon that can take other roles to surprise opponents.

    Justification: Support pokemon usually are useless after they set up hazards, so a new pokemon that can support its team while dishing out damage would be a great addition to the metagame.

    Questions to be Answered:
    - How does a support pokemon fit best into a team?
    - Will a pokemon be able to set up hazards and do significant damage at the same time?
    - How can a pokemon best surprise opponents by filling in a different role than it usually does?

    Explanation: Most support pokemon have limited moves, and they can easily be predicted to have hazards, status, and a one damaging move. Pokemon such as ferrothorn or skarmory can run offensive sets, but there choices are very limited and have difficulty pulling of a sweep. Jirachi is the pokemon that is most similar to this concept, which wish and paralysis support, but it lacks high base power moves and it has poor STAB. This pokemon will be mainly support, but the ability for it to do heavy damage is only a secondary part of its design.
  3. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    My general feeling on weather is that it's so dominant in so many tiers that it's been done to death. I want something a little bit more ambitious than trying to find the perfect Snow Warning Pokemon, which is what any Hail-based concept is going to become. There are plenty of good Pokemon with access to Hail. None of them use it, because temporary weather is almost useless. So it's one of the more restricting concepts, and my taste this CAP is for something a little bit more ambitious. Nothing against Hail, the concepts are perfectly good and legal, it's just it's perennially brought up and perennially shot down as the direction the CAP community wants to go.
  4. chuckeroo777

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    Name: Anti-weather-starter

    General Description: A pokemon capable of removing the opponents weather starters, as well as removing the weather itself.

    Justification: Weather has been a dominant force since the beginning of black and white. Removing weather from play could cause traditional DPP strategies to flourish, while weather will still be viable with proper counters to this pokemon. It would cause greater strategy diversity.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    -what typing, abilty, and moves are needed to reliably remove the five weather starters?
    -How does this weather elimination change the metagame?
    -Could non-weather pokemon like lucario and syclant make a comeback?
    -Is removal of weather a good thing?

    Explanation: There are many ways this could be done. The best way would simply be a weather removing move for after starters are removed, or a weather ENDING ability (not clear skys. Won't help the rest of the team) could make it like a fifth weather starter.
  5. Doughboy

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    In a similar vein Psych Up can be used and explored with this concept too. With Psych Up in mind, I believe in Gen 2 Psych Up was employed by some Pokemon to counter the rampant amount of cursers in the game. I think Milktank was the most prominent user but the point is that a concept that is similar to this is viable in OU and will certainly be interesting being adapted into a modern metagame.
  6. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast LOL STAFF FAG
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    The point was to remove the opponent's stat boosts and take them for yourself, though. Psych Up is a whole new can of worms and doesn't really counter the opposing Pokemon often, particularly with Dragon Dance and CM Psyshock running around. Regardless, it's not a bad idea. For now though, I'm sticking with Heart Swap and Snatch.
  7. This is not my understanding at all, though it's possible that I simply overlooked that, especially considering all of the changes going on with the CAP Project as of late. Could somebody clarify this for me?

    Like Deck Knight knight said, the problem is that it's already so prevalent that building a CAP around it is like beating a dead horse. There's so much attention and focus on it already that it's hard to think of the project as being a very difficult, original, or ambitious one. This is all just my personal opinion, of course.

    Assuming that the community wants to go with something more consistent and reliable than infatuation mechanics (which is a fair assumption) and thus decides to go with Rivalry as the way to execute the concept, I don't think that "restricting" would be the word that I would go with. I see it more as "focused", with a definite mechanical direction to start off with, which I know that I personally prefer in at least in some ways to a lot of the more vague concepts.
    (EDIT: Although, Rivalry may not be the only option. Something built explicitly to exploit other mechanics, such as via trapping infatuated foes, could still work.)

    That said, Deck Knight seems not to be taken with the concept, and I can't exactly say that I blame him considering how difficult this concept could be to execute compared to a lot of the other very interesting submissions. I don't want to hog the thread, so I'm not going to press the matter any further, though I still hope that you (and Deck, of course) would reconsider and give the concept a chance despite it being so out of the box. I think that the most creative, ambitious things that we could do would be to start off with practically nothing and end up with something, which is exactly why I submitted the concept.
  8. jas61292

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    Flare is correct in stating that this CAP will be for OU and not the CAP metagame, as was desided by the policy review committee in this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3464059



    On a different note, I would like to say, just like last CAP, I am a big fan of BMB's Psychological Warfare. I think such a concept has a lot to work with, and would be a great experience. Though, I almost feel like it overlaps a lot with Dusk's Deceiver. This, of course, is not a bad thing, and I think both would make fantastic concepts. I'm just not sure which would make more sense, as both are very similar, and I would be interested to see how we could make this one different from that, as right now it seems like they are different concepts aiming for the same Pokemon.
  9. Birkal

    Birkal woops, butter fingers :>
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    Name: Boot to the Head
    Previously titled Decentralizer Revisited.

    General Description: A Pokemon that is constructed to perform only moderately well against the majority of the Pokemon with the OU tier, but designed specifically to beat the top 6 used Pokemon (and their playstyles) within the OU tier superbly.

    Justification: If you have played on Smogon’s OU tier within the past three months, you must have noticed at there are certain Pokemon that seem to pop up continually and persistently. These Pokemon are the most used Pokemon in OU and they are often selected during teambuilding processes over other underused Pokemon within the OU tier. These include threats like Scizor and Rotom-W, which abuse switching tactics to decimate the tier; these two Pokemon are both statistically found in at least one out of every five OU teams. Weather starters like Tyranitar and Politoed are also widely prevalent, converting the majority of OU battles into a massive weather war.

    It is unfortunate that the OU tier is so fixated on six specific Pokemon. There are many other OU Pokemon that have the potential to perform exceedingly well, but for less than obvious reasons, fall to the wayside when compared to the Top 6. The Boot to the Head would teach us vast amounts how the top threats in OU consistently rank so high in the usage statistics. Throughout the creation of this concept, we’d identify the weaknesses displayed by the Top 6 and discover how to exploit them. This would, concurrently, reveal to us how well other OU Pokemon can perform within the tier once the Top 6 aren't so pervasive.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Why are the top six threats in OU consistently seated in the top seats of the OU tier? What makes them stand out from other OU Pokemon?
    • What kind of weaknesses do the Top 6 exhibit? How can we capitalize upon them?
    • What common weaknesses do the top six threats in OU share? How can they be exploited? Inversely, which weaknesses are different and individualized per each of these six overused Pokemon?
    • Which attacking types will prove to be suitable in an offensive combination against the Top 6? Furthermore, which defensive types hold their own against the top seated Pokemon in OU?
    • Which non-attacking moves can be utilized to stop the top OU threats and their playstyles? Similarly, which abilities are useful in stopping the Top 6?
    • Which Pokemon can now find success in OU when the previously biggest threats are now thwarted? What specifically was holding them back previously from achieving bountiful success within the OU tier?
    • Does the Boot to the Head end up having an overall effect of decentralizing the tier or centralizing it even more? If the tier is more centralized due to its presence, then which Pokemon stole the spotlight? Why?

    Explanation:


    The Inspiration for Creating the Boot to the Head
    To begin, let me provide some statistics from the OU tier, graciously pulled off of the Smogon server on Pokemon Online by user Antar:

    Past March Statistics (open)
    Code:
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | RealUse| RealPct | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     [b]| 1    | Scizor          | 66225  | 27.549% | 54445  | 27.258% | 
     | 2    | Dragonite       | 53436  | 22.229% | 42631  | 21.343% | 
     | 3    | Heatran         | 49829  | 20.728% | 42157  | 21.106% | 
     | 4    | Rotom-W         | 48683  | 20.252% | 44024  | 22.040% | 
     | 5    | Tyranitar       | 43734  | 18.193% | 39153  | 19.602% | 
     | 6    | Politoed        | 42146  | 17.532% | 39056  | 19.553% | [/b]

    Past Three-Month Statistics (open)
    Code:
     + ---- + --------------- + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Percent | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------- + 
    [b] | 1    | Scizor          | 27.950% |
     | 2    | Dragonite       | 22.435% |
     | 3    | Heatran         | 20.530% |
     | 4    | Rotom-W         | 20.501% |
     | 5    | Tyranitar       | 18.212% |
     | 6    | Politoed        | 17.440% |[/b]

    Past March 1337 Statistics (open)
    Code:
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | RealUse| RealPct | 
     + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
     [b]| 1    | Tyranitar       | 4394   | 43.271% | 4070   | 46.376% | 
     | 2    | Scizor          | 2827   | 27.840% | 2399   | 27.336% | 
     | 3    | Politoed        | 2803   | 27.604% | 2546   | 29.011% | 
     | 4    | Rotom-W         | 2441   | 24.039% | 2227   | 25.376% | 
     | 5    | Dragonite       | 2397   | 23.605% | 1898   | 21.627% | 
     | 6    | Heatran         | 2342   | 23.064% | 2083   | 23.735% |[/b]


    As you can clearly see, OU has a massive problem with centralization. Within the past month of March, the top six ranked Pokemon in OU ruled the tier with incredibly high usage percents. Furthermore, this focus on six specific Pokemon has been active for the past three months. That's right, all six of these Pokemon were also the top six Pokemon used within the long span of three months. Even more shocking is that the 1337 statistics for March are identical, except for those battlers use the Top 6 even more (1337 stats refer to battles that were fought by two users with a ranking over 1337)! These six Pokemon have absolutely defined the metagame for the last several months.

    Meanwhile, with all of this centralization going on, there are many fantastic Pokemon that are falling to the wayside. Threats like Gengar, Gyarados, and Salamence have fallen under a 10% usage, with other Pokemon like Reuniclus, Volcarona, Conkeldurr, and countless others falling even lower. Furthermore, non-mainstream play styles like Stall and Rain Dance Offense have completely fallen to the wayside (even Ferrothorn is losing its touch). The OU tier's focus has been so glued to the Top 6 that we have almost completely neglected to study these Pokemon and give them a chance to shine. Their overshadowing is tragic, really. Adding the Boot to the Head will give us a chance to look at these "fallen stars" in OU thoroughly.


    Clarification on the Concept's Purpose
    When I say that we need to focus on defeating the Top 6 and their playstyles, I am referring to the "niches" that they bring to an OU team. For example, Politoed and Tyranitar both provide weather support to a team, while Scizor and Rotom-W provide momentum support. Perhaps in order to decentralize the OU tier of the Top 6, we need to focus on stopping these playstyles alongside of stopping the Pokemon. We will need to be plenty creative, but I am sure it would be a lot of fun!

    Furthermore, please not that Decentralizer and the Boot to the Head have different goals and are not the same concept. The Decentralizer aimed to decentralize the current metagame completely. The Boot to the Head, however, is merely focused on removing the Top 6 from their lofty rank and noting the consequential changes in the tier. This concept is much more interested in seeing which Pokemon can thrive and survive when the Top 6 are deterred. With this concept, we're not trying to completely decentralize the OU tier, but rather, we're simply working on a) discussing tactics that can be used to defeat the top six biggest threats and their playstyles in OU, and b) discovering which other Pokemon do exceptionally well when the Top 6 are threatened by the Boot to the Head.


    Flexibility of the Concept
    Let me just make a quick note: how we "beat" the Top 6 is totally up for grabs. I think part of the fun would be incorporating its dominance over these six Pokemon at different parts in the process! For example, its typing could give it a solid advantage over two threats, while its ability lets it beat out two more, one is defeated by its stats, and the final falls prey to movepool. The term "beat" is also subjective. It could mean checking a Pokemon, countering a Pokemon, or removing the "playstyle" that the threat envokes (e.g. allowing the Boot to the Head to change the weather to beat Politoed). The concept is really quite flexible in these regards. Thinking "we're going to counter all 6 Pokemon in Ability Discussion" is a poor way of going about this. Variance and clever planning would be our best friends in taking down the Top 6!

    However, we must be careful with this concept. We have to make sure that we create a Pokemon that is meant to stop the Top 6 and their playstyles specifically and little else. We'll need to have many discussions on the weaknesses of the top six threats and how to attack them without making CAP 3 too powerful. It certainly is possible; we just need to be aware of all of the Pokemon within the OU tier in order for this to work properly. Furthermore, we can glean information from the concept that inspired this one: the Decentralizer (Arghonaut) by viewing the brand new CAP Process Archive subforum. Although Arghonaut's concept was made with the CAP metagame in mind, we can still draw inspiration from the discussion on 4th Generation CAP 6 process when balancing this Pokemon.

    As a final note, I must stress that if we're going to choose this concept, it is now or never. Pokemon Black 2 & White 2 are on the horizon for release this summer. If we're ever going to test the BW OU tier that we have played for the last year and a few months (with a few bans) to see which Pokemon do well when the Top 6 are scattered, it must be now. The move tutors and other factors presented within B2W2, plus the new added threats of Keldeo and possibly Genesect, will shake up the metagame too much for us to get accurate data on the first wave of competitive BW OU battling. The BW OU tier has settled, more or less, so now is the perfect time to run with such a concept as this.

    Thanks for your time!
  10. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    Two concepts have really gotten the wheels turning in my head with pros and cons, which is always a sign of a great concept. Any concept that is a slam dunk either way, is terrible. We want to have a concept where we struggle back and forth a bit, where we EXPLORE the idea while we make our next fakemon.

    Currently, the most intriguing concept is:

    toshimelonhead's Checkmate

    The more I think about the concept, the more I like it. I like CAP's where we basically take a lab class in a certain aspect of the metagame. With Kitsunoh, it was a lab class on the topic of "Scouting". Voodoom was a lab class on "Team Cores/Synergy". There are many more examples of this sort of thing through CAP history, those are just a few easy to recall examples that come to mind. Regardless of whether those pokemon filled their desired role or not -- by the end of CAP projects like that, we all learned something about the metagame, because we spent so much time talking about the topic in such detail.

    I see the Checkmate concept as a potential lab class in "Endgame Strategies". Planning for a desired endgame is part of many successful teams. Sure, teams of generalists can do very well, and are arguably better for all-purpose ladder play. But teams with clear endgame plans are some of the most interesting teams in Pokemon. I love reading warstories of teams with specific endgames in mind, and it is all the more satisfying when the battler plays the team well and gets the endgame they had in mind. There is a certain poetic justice to it that appeals to my sensibilities. I also like the purposeful execution of clear strategy, as opposed to just grinding out a win by outlasting the other guy or simply covering all your bases and waiting for luck or a misplay by the opponent. Like the Checkmate concept's namesake, playing for an endgame makes Pokemon more like chess. I realize the unpredictability of Pokemon makes comparisons to chess almost impossible. But strategizing for an endgame is about as close as we'll ever get.

    So, yeah, "endgame" is one of those classic metagame terms that is often mentioned around Smogon, but really hasn't been put under the microscope like we are capable of doing on a CAP project. I personally would look forward to reading threads where CAP's best and brightest tackle the subject.

    I do have some fears that this veers in the overpowered direction of becoming "Ultimate Sweep-mon", or possibly we try to get too clever and it becomes "Impossible To Pull Off Gimmick-mon". But some canny leadership by the TL and other experienced battlers tends to keep us away from the extremes.



    My current #2 favorite is:
    Rising Dusk's Deceiver

    RD knows very well what makes a great CAP project, so I'm not surprised at all that he delivered this gem of a concept. I can see many ways to go with it, and there is all sorts of room for us to explore the lost art of information hiding in the 5th gen metagame. I don't think this concept is as relevant as some other concepts, but it's a deliciously interesting challenge for the community. What we learn from Deciever might not be as applicable to regular play as the Checkmate concept, but the topic threads in this CAP would be hella fun to read!


    I'm looking forward to seeing more good Concepts posted!
  11. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    I think I'll make one last post on Hail and that will be done with it. I may end up slating the concept, but basically it goes like this:

    In the absence of Snow Warning on the CAP, you have to find a way to contend with Ninetales, Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon. You then have to make sure your Abomasnow (or Snover) is still alive for you to restart Hail. You have a further problem against Sun Teams because many of them have Sunny Day on the set for the exact reason that Tyranitar and Politoed exist and nerf their Speed Boost and quickfiring Solarbeam.

    So while I imagine we could build a perfectly nasty CAP that works wonders in Hail, the weak link in Hail has always been the need to get Abomasnow out at least twice: Once when the battle starts, and a second time to bring back the Hail weather after one or more of the above comes in. I'm not saying it's impossible or there isn't a way to explore it, just that it's severely limiting to find a Pokemon attuned to Hail that doesn't start it, and wouldn't rather just be on a non-Hail team.
  12. Argorine

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    Hi, first time commenting. I do fear my proposal is too close to Mono789's. I don't want to break rules on my first post.

    Name: Capitalizing on Weakness

    General Description: Take a typing that has a crippling weakness and utilize an ability to benefit from it.

    Justification: Several typing combinations have 4x weaknesses and commonly put Pokemon with them in lower tiers and are used minimally. Some of these combinations to could be avoided with an ability. CAP has sort of addressed these issues before, with Syclant and mountaineer. But, combinations still exist that ultimately cripple versatility of a pokemon. Utilizing an ability to boost speed or attack could create a strong, hearty Pokemon that doesn't need to worry about it's typing.

    Questions to be Answered:
    • What type weaknesses are viable options? Is rock a viable weakness to the effectiveness of the pokemon, because there is no boosting abilities from rock? (Magic coat on an ice fire type for example)
    • What is the role of the Pokemon? Could it be a defensive rock ground typing with water absorb or an offensive water ground pokemon with sap sipper?

    Explaination:
    Several typings exist in the current metagame that are fine with their apparently crippling weakness to a single type. Sometimes this type is super common offensively, fire, rock, electricity, ground, but they can't gain from that weakness.

    With weather defining the moves and types that are prevolent in the metagame, we don't get to see some typings in any situation because of weather. Scald in rain or sand can really mess up defensive or offensive rock ground types. You won't see an ice flying type being viable because of stealth rocks.

    Uniqueness can be formed from this. Even though there are many abilities that boost attack, it doesn't say a ground fire type has to be physical, but storm drain could be very useful in boosting earth power, fire blast, or giving hidden power enough to KO a threat.

    Again, my submission summarizes almost just like Mono789's. Let me know if this is an issue. I feel that this is what I want to Pokemon to focus on entirely that it can be deemed different enough.
  13. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    Concept: "Pro-Life (Anti-Choice)"
    Description: A Pokemon that punishes opposing Pokemon for using Choice items.

    Justification: Terrakion, Scizor, Rotom-W, Latios. Many of the nastiest and most common Pokemon in OU use Choice items to spam their best moves indiscriminately. This Pokemon would make them pay for that strategy.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • What strategies are most effective for punishing the use of Choice items?
    • What are the overall effects of Choice items on the metagame?
    • Can setup Pokemon be dealt with effectively if Choice Scarf becomes much less common?

    Explanation: A stat-up sweeper would be the obvious strategy for punishing Choice item use, but other approaches would definitely work, such as a more defensive Pokemon with many immunities or Cursed Body. Nerfing Choice items would also have the fun side effect of making SwitchTurn teams less dangerous.
  14. spitze

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    My last one didn't work, so

    Name: New Evolution

    General Description: Give a weaker Pokemon with great potential but limited stats/typing and a potential to evolve a new evolution.

    Justification: Generation 4 saw many Pokemon receive evolutions, making them OU or at least more viable. Perhaps the CAP community could show gamefreak how it is done.

    Questions
    What Pokemon could receive a useful evolution?
    Does the CAP community want to work with already existing Pokemon?
    What role would this new Pokemon play?
    What role can we learn from creating an evolution of an already existing Pokemon?

    Explanation: I have no specific Pokemon in mind for this project, but I think it is a concept we could have fun with. It would be interesting to try to perfect an already existing Pokemon than create one from scratch.
  15. Kaprikorn

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    Name: Item Check

    General Description: A Pokemon dedicated to depriving the oppoent's Pokemon of their item or its effect.

    Justification: A Pokemon's item can define its role. For example, you wouldn't run the same set on Choice Scarf Scizor as you would on Choice Band. Leftovers Heatran can't switch in on ground moves, where as Balloon variants can; you play these Pokemon differently, despite their similarities. Items are also something Team Preview doesn't account for, which makes them instrumental in maintaining surprise value. This concept aims to test just how valuable items really are.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • How necessary are items to OU's most common Pokemon?
    • Are items more valuable to a particular playstyle, and if so, which one?
    • Will people shift their teams to be less reliant on items, or will they simply plug in counters to this Pokemon?
    • Can teams recover from having their items snatched away?
    • Can this Pokemon be useful in situations where depriving the opponent of their item isn't practical or useful?

    Explanation: There are a few abilities and moves that deal with items, but they are poorly distributed, aside from Trick. The aim here is greater than that, though; Klutz, Thief, and Frisk are the ones that come immediately to mind. Unfortunately, none of them have a good distribution or are used effectively; this is what we should aim to change. The idea is for the Pokemon to disable or steal an opponent's item, and them exploit that advantage. An example would be CAP3 disabling or stealing a Heatran's Balloon, and then using Earthquake. This is basic, but it demonstrates the idea well enough.

    ---------------------

    The concepts that really stand out to me are, as of now:

    The Deciever
    Double Team
    Break the Mold 2

    These three have the most potential, in that there are so many ways you could do any one of them.
  16. Pokethan

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    My last one as Deck Knight pointed out was something that couldn't be expanded on properly so I came up with another idea.

    Name: Ultimate Technician

    General Description: A pokemon that has access to all the good lower than base power 60 moves and can use them effectively. Doesn't have to have technician but makes use of uncommonly used moves and moves that are limited a lot but have good effects.

    Justification:
    • Allows us to look at moves that are uncommon on pokemon's movesets but could still be good if used right. (Vacuum Wave, Flame Charge)
    • Lets us see if any uncommonly used moves can be effective if used properly in the current meta-game.
    • With there being a lot of priority moves that all have 60 base power it gives us an opportunity to make a unique pokemon in the metagame that doesn't require any speed to be effective if we choose to.
    • Allows us to also see how effective certain moves can be if they weren't limited to only certain pokemon. (Shift Gear)
    Questions To Be Answered:
    How effective can these lower power moves be if used correctly?
    Can a pokemon with a massive movepool of these moves function well in OU?
    How effective could these moves be if they weren't so limited?
    Just how would the metagame react to having such a pokemon enter it?

    Explanation: Now I want to stress I really wanted to not think of Technician and tried to make this not based around the ability but uncommon moves as a whole. Moves that are limited to certain pokemon or moves that just aren't used but could be good if used correctly not just bad moves.
  17. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    3,171
    In response to the concerns regarding the Gravity concept...

    Gravity is a global effect that is based heavily on team synergy. As you all have said, it isn't possible to build a standalone Gravity sweeper. What my concept aims to do is to create a good keystone around which the team can be built.

    Regarding the concerns about just using weather/abilities to make the moves more accurate,
    a)Thunder and Blizzard don't get 100 acc at the same time.
    b)Moves like Thunder and Blizzard aren't our only options. You can even opt for the likes of DynamicPunch, Inferno and Zap Cannon, which have a respectably accuracy of 83% under Gravity.

    Gravity's nature as a "double-edged sword" does not come into play often, because most people prefer to run Thunderbolt over Thunder, Ice Beam over Blizzard etc. Not too many people in standard OU run these moves on the off chance that they run into Gravity. The only moves that are likely to be spammed in the first place are Hydro Pump, Fire Blast and Stone Edge(as Hurricane is generally accompanied by Rain), which are reasonably accurate.

    But our CAP doesn't HAVE to be a sweeper. An alternative approach could be a supporter, relying on moves like Hypnosis, which now have 100% accuracy, to shut down a Pokemon and execute your strategy. Even on the sweeper's approach, it can either go physical, or special, or even mixed to deal with a viarety of threats. Since it is using high powered moves, it is possible to "compensate" to an extent by reducing the attacking stats and instead having higher than average speed. This way, it would not end up a general-utility sweeper, as it would rely heavily on luck in that case, but under Gravity, it would be able to weaken several Pokemon, potentially setting up a sweep.

    On the defensive side of things, Gravity's grounding of Flying types and Levitators can be very important. For Pokemon like Latias and Landorus, they pride themselves on switching in comfortably, taking only neutral Stealth Rock Damage. Grounding them will ensure they can no longer switch in freely and fire off attacks.

    The key with this concept is to explore all the possibilities, including the non-conventional ones, to arrive at a Pokemon aimed at adding a new non-weather global effect to the present weather-infested metagame.

    EDIT: Another possible approach would be the ability Arena Trap, which under Gravity functions like a Shadow Tag. This can be used to remove threatening Pokemon, for yet another approach to Gravity. The possibilities are endless in this underexplored field effect, and I am sure we as a community can make it work.
  18. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    404
    Quick question: since it seems likely that we arent going to do any weather-related mon, if I were to have another idea, would I be allowed to post it, or are we allowed only one content submission per CAP? At the moment I dont have anything in mind, but I probably will come up with something. ...Too bad, though. I rather liked my concept, but I guess no one else noticed it that much. I guess weather HAS been done to death...
  19. MLaRF

    MLaRF

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    239
    Bore Meedfack
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    Flarephoenix: I guess the idea could be good, but it's as Deck said. There's already enough weather to go around. And to clarify your concerns, Necturna's sketch artist concept wasn't really gimmicky at all, because it basically allows the pokemon access to any move in the game. The only reason sketch is considered a gimmick is because smeargle's stats are godawful, as can be seen by Necturna being successful with 3 less sketched moveslots.

    Sharpteeth: I really love this idea (because I'm such a hipster when it comes to pokemon and I hate weather).

    Ohshitmelonhead Toshimelonhead: This could kinda really apply to any pokemon? One like this probably already exists.

    Treadshot: I feel that this concept, as I interpret it, is generally contradicting itself. Reducing your opponent's offensive capabilities results in nothing more than reducing the damage your pokemon takes, if that's what you were trying to get at. The other possible thing I think you mean is by locking down your opponent's options, but someone already posted something like that.

    Tpyo: I can't really imagine how easily this would work. Unless you mean something like his stats are at perfect levels that they're great against different threats dependent upon the mon's nature, that might be kinda cool, and would be a good all-around version of the first speedster idea.

    ZhengTann: Do we have our "break-the-mold 2"? I think this would be a way successful way to approach Cape's idea.

    Powergrind: I'm not sure there's a lot of options to make that really work, but as a defensive player I still like the concept nonetheless. I only don't like the question "should it be offensive or defensive," especially in this case because by nature of its function it's defensive. However, it could also fit with Zheng and Cape.

    Jas: In response to your question, I guess it could be up to the participants as to how we would go about this, because you're right, gimmick is a very broad topic, and that's why I like it, because it's fun to think up new ideas for. I guess forecast or Colour Change would be the most obvious ones to use as examples, because as a pokemon changes type it gains different weaknesses and resistances, meaning it benefits against certain pokes while losing a potential advantage against another. If we really want to go far and make an ability, the idea came up when I thought of a pokemon who would enter the field paralyzed when they were unaffected by status conditions. They could use their status as an absorber against more defensive pokemon, but sacrifice speed; or they could rest/refresh it off and use their speed and probably physical attack to sweep, but risk being burned; or even in the case of rest, be a defensive pokemon that absorbs status, but has to essentially do it without an ability, as a restalker, or sacrifice either 2 turns for rest or recovery with refresh. Sorry for the long explanation, and I hope I answered your question!

    I also get this weird thing where the last 3 posts are repeated on the next page. Stop fucking up, smogon. Not cool.

    AOPSUser: Seeing as that would essentially be more of a metagame counter than specific-pokemon-in-the-metagame counter, or at least that's how I interpret it, I think the whole idea is being a bit overcomplicated. However, that point about lesser-used pokemon countering it offers so much potential (someone even suggested something along those lines)! And on another note, I think concepts regarding metagames as a whole are the only ones really suited for the question "would it be offensive or defensive?". I know you didn't have it, or at least not directly, but it would be a good scenario for that question.

    Skore: Assholes trying to make me think your concept was someone elses. Damn subconciousness thieves. But yeah, though that is an interesting idea, it's kind of not too spectacular, it just makes your team a bit more stally as your opponent now has to do things without dealing more damage.

    Pokethan: I think it's right after you that the rest of the speed- and priority-related concepts started popping up. I kinda like the idea of bringing a dead strategy into the spotlight, though.

    Shouting: This seems like it would be so relevant. Now are the days where you already see your opponent's team, so Kitsunoh is really lacking its 4th gen niche, so this would be a suitable concept to inherit his title as the perfect lead/king of games/the guy/whatever.

    Pwnemon: That seems like an awesome concept. Brings back the old days of hearing which of Heatran or Tyranitar would win, "whoever wins the speed tie or predicts wrong." So much risk and reward on both sides, and switching would be too poor a move if you didn't predict right. The battles in my head, man. They're raging. It's intense.

    Rediamond: Simple, yet brilliant and, most of all, relevant. I approve.

    Arcticblast: Also cool concept. I would love to see that one as whale.

    Cretacerus: I think I either saw that, or I suggested that to someone who was overcomplicating a related idea. See my comments on their thing.

    Pills: No man damn now the speed ideas flood in unstoppable like a fucking blackwing deck. I kind of like where it's going, but have to make sure it has the perfect balance of thundrus' usefulness and whimsicott's notbrokenness.

    Levren: Good concept. I think it would be best to counter the majority of its weaknesses, such as the stereotypes of them, but still fare poorly against the outliers like special attacking steels and defensive dragons. However, you do not need the question of offensive vs defensive, that would be dependent upon its typing we choose and how we approach its countering methods, it's not something to think about from this stage any more than the other concepts here.

    Srk: I feel Heracross and other guts users fill this role too well.

    Quan: I kinda love this concept. It's probably a lot more underwhelming than I'm imagining it to be. It could kinda work in conjunction with my concept, where ya have a pokemon with good stats and ability and such, but its gimmick is that all its moves have shitty effects, though they are not the kind of moves you would ever want to be on the receiving end of.

    Jtlek: I think someone above already stated a broader version of this concept.

    MKtheway: Now the flood. Love the anti-meta concept there, abusing the opponent's priority is way cooler, more fun, and has more potential to explore in relation to other strategies than just abusing the mechanic.

    Orivixes: Kinda cool concept maybe, but I get the feeling that either this will become an overemphasized scizor (which would be kinda cool) or a trickster user (which we already have).

    Bugmaniacbob: Love this concept. Beautiful. This is especially a good idea to explore in pokemon, as we don't really know a lot about the user at the other end, and how their personality and playstyle really effects how they play, make mistakes, and cope with mistakes.

    Pikapwned: I also like this one. Fairly straightforward in that it's way flexible. Approved.

    Crazyhair3: Beautiful concept. The only problem is that the high power you suggest would make it kind of predictable in that it probably makes use of a supportive movepool and then proceeds to attack; it should have the smackin' stats, yes, but other capabilities to back up your first statement.

    Chuckeroo: Someone already suggested a weather-remover. However, a starter counterer would be cool, but I think Dugtrio and Gastrodon fit these roles quite satisfactorily.

    Birkal: My cup floweth over with hipstery heartstrings twanging along like an orchestra right here.

    Argorine: Sounds like a kinda cool idea. Pretty broad, so not that much else ta say.

    Reachzero: Not sure how I feel about the name, but regardless. Sounds like a cool idea, but it will most certainly become more of a trapper or lockdown-style player (in my opinion).

    Spitze: I'm on the fence about it, solely because I don't know how the general mass would react to the idea. It has its potential, but yeah.

    Kaprikorn: kinda really like this concept. Especially the third question. Big one I love.

    Ok pokethan stop cheating the system you're only getting 2 beedfacks max
    Pokethan: Like this one. Always been more a fan of effect-based things than pure power.

    That appears to be all for now.
  20. xlxlxlxl

    xlxlxlxl

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    Messages:
    44
    Name: Hazardous Spin-Blocker

    General Description: A pokemon that can set entry hazards and through typing, movepool, or ability deter/prevent use of Rapid Spin or defeat the Rapid Spin user.

    Justification: The ability to play around entry hazards is very important because of how frequently one must switch Pokemon. Making them harder to play around would be an interesting way to shake up the metagame.

    Questions to be Answered:

    • Will Pokemon weak to SR like Dragonite and Volcarona see significant drops in usage?
    • Will Flying type become more valuable if Spikes and Toxic Spikes are harder to remove?
    • Will stall become more popular?
    • Will previously uncommon pokemon become more popular due to their ability to sweep more easily, resistances to hazards, or their ability remove Toxic Spikes?
    • Will Magic Bounce become more popular?
    • Will Volt/Turn see a decrease in usage?
    • Will Choice items see a decrease in usage?
    • Will Wish passing become more common?
    • Will Pokemon with Lunar Dance or Healing Wish have a new niche?
    • How much more important will maintaining momentum become?
  21. Helios

    Helios

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2008
    Messages:
    158
    Name: Spanner in the Works

    General Description: A pokemon that punishes opponents for using 'safe' options rather than attempting to predict their opponent's choice.

    Justification: Many pokemon rely on a certain spammable attack/tactic that generally has a favourable result regardless on the opponent's actions. This pokemon would seek to take advantage of the common variations of this, whether it be to set up hazards, revenge kill or begin a sweep. This encourages more thought to be put into move choice rather than choosing a singular low-risk, high return option.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How safe does a tactic/attack need to be to warrant using it over predicting the opponent's actions?
    • Is an attack still a safe option if a popular pokemon can take advantage of it?
    • How reliant are specific pokemon who use these tactics on not needing prediction?
    • How reliant are players on mechanically using a single trick that the metagame doesn't have a good answer to (or doesn't have enough answers to)?
    Explanation: The obvious strategies are Outrage spam and volt-turn, although many pokemon prefer to use their STAB attack as their safe option. On the other hand, this pokemon would likely need to either be weak to common coverage moves or have defenses that aren't quite good enough to withstand repeated neutral hits from the opponents they'd be switching into (whilst resisting their main offensive options). Sweepers aren't the only pokemon who do this either; setting up hazards on the switch (assuming you don't see Espeon in the team preview) is often an automatic action as well.
  22. Dragontongue195040

    Dragontongue195040

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    112
    Hey guys, this is my first CAP, and I hope this will be interesting to you!
    Name: Catching Craze
    General Description: With the new inclusion of Team Preview, suicide leads are the thing of the past. Catching Craze is aimed to create a pokemon that traps and prevents a foe from escaping no matter what, while being able to set up on it, and then exploding in its face.
    Justification: This new pokemon will definitely have its effects on the metagame. It'll bring back the concept of suiciding, and further enhance the idea of revenge trapping. It will also weaken the concept of VoltTurn and Baton Pass, as it will stop those chains altogether. We'll have an new taste of suicide leads from the previous generation. By being able to trap any foe, this pokemon will also be a popular on weather teams for its ability to trap and perhaps do extreme damage to the opposing team's weather inducer. Choice items may also become extremely unpopular, because of the fear of being trapped and set up upon.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • How many pokemon depend on Volt Switch or Uturn to function effectively?
    • Is one pokemon enough to stop the continuous chain of a team?
    • Will this pokemon truly be able to overcome Team Preview?
    • How does Team Preview really affect a pokemon's usage?
    Explanation: The basic idea for this pokemon is not only to trap pokemon but also to set up on and then detonate right in front of the foe. By trap, I mean trap, as in no:
    Baton Passing
    Volt Switching
    Uturning
    Regular switching
    In fact, the only way to escape this pokemon should be to force it out or to kill it. (Shed Shell should still work, but that's debateable) This pokemon should be able to trap any and every pokemon out there. However, it's attacking stats should be limited so it's not too powerful. It's movepool should be very extensive in the support side but not so much in the offensive side. As part of the suicide theme, the pokemon should also be reliant on explosion or self destruct to do real damage, just like many leads were in Gen IV, and just like some leads are today.
    (we can even give it pursuit just for teh lols)
  23. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    301
    Favorite concepts so far

    I notice that my concept, "Rise of a Lower-Tier Threat", is getting some mixed opinions here, and frankly I'm fine with that. The feedback is good, and I've done what I can to improve the focus. I am, however, not counting on winning the main vote here, mostly because I've seen some other submissions that essentially blow my concept out of the water.

    capefeather's "Break the Mold" concept is good. It emulates the exploration and fun of using a gimmick set, but it has the potential of a truly unique niche we can add to the CAP metagame.

    Asylum Rhapsody's "Battle of the Sexes" is also really worth exploring I believe. Gender has been around since Gen II, but competitive play has not even scratched the surface of this mechanic. It's nothing but gimmick for now, but I would love to see the community change that.

    SubwayJ's "Double Team" is probably my favorite of all these. Seeing Chansey and Blissey side-by-side in OU always came off as interesting to me. Reading about the concept of two entirely different roles in a brand new style of CAP project, however, got me excited to the point of simply blanking out into thought of such a big-bro little-bro combo (which for some reason made me think of a male-only split evolution for Swadloon, not sure why)...

    Powergrid's "Leech" at least deserves a mention. I don't believe the idea has been done by much else than, what, maybe a few Drain Punch users? We could definitely go deeper into this. The questioning could be better, though.

    Quanyails' "Two-Turn Trouble" has potential as well. At first I didn't think much of it, but then the smaller factors of stacking attacks and punishing switches got my attention.

    Lastly, Kaprikorn's "Item Check". It really feels like a lot of the metagame harshly relies on their items, and between all the choice users and leftover supports, we can really see how the OU tier fares when they're stripped of their items.
  24. Meganium Sulfate

    Meganium Sulfate

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    84
    I've added more to my original post to clarify, since this a point that I need to make clear: my idea isn't simply a pokemon that uses Slow Shifting. This is a pokemon that reinvents it. This pokemon needs to not only be good enough at sponging hits to make Slow Shifting a viable strategy. It needs to have such a good incentive to use the strategy that it will cause the metagame to shift around it, and people will need to prepare for a foe to switch in undamaged.

    While Scizor, Rotom, and all of those obscure strategies can use Slow Shifting (I sure didn't make it up), and can be more based on switching than other pokemon, they have not used Slow Shifting to the point where it fundamentally alters the way people battle. This is an effect I know Slow Shifting can have, if the right pokemon uses it. Let's face it: all we have right now are pokemon that are more focused in bulky offence, and variants of Slow Shifting that nobody uses enough to make any difference. Slow Shifting itself has never gained enough usability to stand on its own.

    This concept would break from the traditional trend of CAP (huge movepool, lots of options, high unpredictability) to focus on the impact that an underused idea, when perfectly implemented, can have on a metagame. Isn't that what CAP is about? We're all taking ideas that can have a serious impact on pokemon battling and putting them to the test. And despite some comments, what we have now is not the most Slow Shifting can be. Let's give it a chance.
  25. srk1214

    srk1214 You spin my head right round
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,263
    I just want to reiterate about my concept since it has received no commentary of note.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4184523&postcount=39

    There is very little in OU that doesn't mind taking a Scald or a Will-o-Wisp. I don't think the concept should be disregarded just because Celebi for example fills that role already. Celebi has an awkward typing and a certain type of movepool. There is no reason that my concept could not be fulfilled with something radically different from Celebi.

    Also, MLaRF, Heracross is both UU AND doesn't enjoy eating Scalds especially rain-boosted ones. It's pretty frail.

    I'm hardly saying my concept is best. But I don't think it should be discarded. I am very much a fan of projects that have some sort of guidelines over the more vague/theoretical ones that seem to win with decent frequency.
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