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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Final Product

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Deck Knight, Jun 24, 2012.

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  1. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    Yes folks, it's finally time for me to retire from this benevolent dictatorship thing and return to my role as benevolent oligarch. The last time I was making this post I was filling in for Fuzznip. My schedule has gotten insanely busy at the end but I really appreciate all the work our contributors, new and long-time have put into this CAP.

    It was a wild ride, I'll tell you that much. From the get-go we set out on an ambitious project that had several groundbreaking concepts in the slate, each of which would have made a fantastic product. In the end it was time to do a typing makeover. The Great Drought War hasn't occurred incidentally since the first CAP 3, all the way back in Gen 4. Weather keeps cropping up as a pivotal point of discussion and interest in each CAP project, and I suspect it will continue. Hopefully next time it won't have so many casualties...

    The best part about these discussions though were trying to pin down a vision for this concept. Taking a "bad" typing and turning it around requires several levels of thought long before you get to the typing poll. I remember early in the process there were several complaints that it was going too slowly, but I made it a point that in order to fulfill this concept we would have to batten down exactly what we meant by a "bad" type - and then take the next step and figure out what qualities we could draw out of that typing to maximize its strengths.

    The end result of that selection was Fire/Poison, a typing with a crippling 4x Ground weakness, Stealth Rock weakness, and a weakness to water in a Rain-dominated metagame - with the now more common Psychic typing bringing up the rear. In exchange our Pokemon had immunity to the two damaging statuses and a wide array of resistances. After selecting the type, we now had to find a way to make it shine. One discussion that had occurred since the selection of the concept was immunity abilities. Although I quickly bounced Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, and Wonder Guard for being too overpowering and centralizing in and of themselves, we noted a wide array of OU Pokemon use immunity abilities effectively, from Rotom-W and Gengar to Gastrodon. Immediately after the typing poll we had the Threats Discussion, where we discussed what our CAP's role should be. It was noted that Fire/Poison's immunity to Burn and Toxic and Ice resistance made it an ideal Pokemon to deal with the stalling strategies usually employed in Rain, with Scald and Toxic / Toxic Spikes. Except for the whole "weak to water" thing.

    All of this built up to a change in process order. Our CAP would threaten common Rain Pokemon up to and including the likes of Ferrothorn, and in turn be threatened by the other major player in the interminable weather wars: Sand. Our Ability poll had Dry Skin and Drought duking it out, with the eventual winner being Dry Skin. So how do you make Fire/Poison shine? Turn it into Rain's worst nightmare - a Pokemon that can switch into boosted Water attacks with impunity, threaten an easy OHKO on Rain's chief hazard Pokemon even in Rain, and absorb the Toxic Spikes employed by more defensive Rain teams all at once.

    I won't bore you with the rest of the play-by-play - suffice it to say the CAP process that produced Mollux really tested the flexibility of our early-project CAP procedures and showed the value of not rushing into certain concepts. The playtest is coming soon and I hope Mollux performs its role as well as is expected, and that the decisions we've made along the way end up as key points in the analysis. Mollux was built with two status immunities and an ability that would allow its typing to shine for its resistances, residual benefits, and hopefully its STABs. Only time will tell how much Mollux will succeed, but I have high hopes for it.

    Thank you again to all of our contributors who have made me proud to be a TL for a CAP Project. Having had to clean up the end of one before I know how stressful it can be, I'm glad I got the chance to do it from start to finish.

    Without further delay, I present to you Mollux:

    Name: Mollux
    [​IMG]
    Concept: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition (open)



    [​IMG]
    Typing: Fire / Poison
    Base stats: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
    Abilities: Dry Skin / Illuminate (Hidden)
    Movepool: link
    Height: 1.2m / 3' 11.2"
    Weight: 41 kg (90.2) lbs [GK/LK: 60 BP]
    Gender Ratio: 50% Male / 50% Female
    Dex: Mollux, the Mantle Pokémon

    Black: Its innards glow with a vibrant light, the color being determined by its current mood. Its predators take a red light as a warning to leave.
    White: The light it generates helps it traverse the dark depths of the sea. Its soothing glow helps it befriend curious or lost Pokemon.
  2. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    While I have had my reservations about certain parts of this CAP, I have to say that I think the end product was well worth the tears that were shed on the way. Hopefully Mollux will justify our expectations in playtesting, but we can defer judgement until then.

    Congratulations to Deck on a job well done (mostly), not to mention finally being a Topic Leader.

    Now finally we can get on with the most important part of CAP: Policy Review ... ahem *stet*
  3. Yilx

    Yilx Sad
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    I suppose I could post this now.

    [​IMG]
    Deck Knight likes this.
  4. SubwayJ

    SubwayJ

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    Good Job everyone!

    This was a very new experience for me, being my first full CAP. I think I contributed pretty well (3 submissions making slated, 2 getting second) and will definitely want to continue with CAP!

    Despite not being the concept I had wanted, it turned out way better than Double Team could have.

    Also it may be called Mollux, but to me it will always be Escarglow :P

    Again, good job and I can't wait for CAP 4!
  5. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    Mollux has turned out great. I can honestly say that I've loved every part of this CAP, and that I'm glad every turn of events has came out the way it did. Even the loss of Escarglow is fine because of how much Mollux has grown on me. Necturna was fun and all, but I think that Mollux has flowed with much more personality throughout the stages of his movepool, abilities, and miscellaneous info. Using him is going to be fun as well, due to how unorthodox his typing and usage will be in a metagame of weather.

    I just also want to say how honored I am to not only have been slated for the first time, but be a winner in the dex entry with a 2 to 1 majority. It's only trivial data in the background of the CAP, but it still feels great nonetheless. To get that kind of support, even from the original artist himself, is enough motivation to try my hardest to get involved in CAP 4. Thank you everyone.

    That is amazing.
  6. ShyGuy1221

    ShyGuy1221

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    Great job everyone, especially you DK.

    Probably a stupid question, but will the playtest of Mollux be in the new B2W2 metagame or the old BW OU?
  7. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    It will be in old BWOU

    Congrats everyone on another great CaP. Will look forward to using it in playtest :)
  8. Darklatias92

    Darklatias92

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    Sigh, I'm not much in these competitive battles (and I doubt I will), but I think CAP3 is… good. Still can't say anything without seeing somebody trying it. "Words are words, but you have to see the facts"… that's all what I have to say for now.
  9. Birkal

    Birkal Caw.
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    I'm anticipating the CAP3 playtest greatly. This CAP went pretty steeply in a direction that I had not envisioned it going; I think I was on the losing end of a lot of the polls, haha. Regardless, I am pleased with what we've created. I definitely won't be able to make a true verdict until after the playtest. However, I am proud of all of the discussion and debate that came out of this CAP. Taught us a lot about both the OU metagame and the CAP process.

    Also, this is probably one of my favorite CAPs flavor-wise. Kudos to our artists, spriters, and writers <3
  10. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Great job as always everyone. This CAP had some of the most interesting (and heated) discussions I have ever seen in this project, and man, it was fun. Flavor was fantastic too. A cutemon with Illuminate? I can now die happy.

    Can wait to start testing.
  11. srk1214

    srk1214 is a giant squid of anger
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    Agreeing on all counts with what's been posted. I have NO IDEA how well this will work in playtesting. And that's kind of exciting, isn't it?
  12. nyttyn

    nyttyn

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    Whooo that was fun! Sure, it got kind of nasty at times, but I think Mollux is a pretty cool end result. All in all, I liked my first CAP project.

    Also I won movepool votes afters hours upon hours of theroycrafting and mathing despite being told "No, you are new, you will never win." That made me happy.
  13. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Someone has to crash the party :(

    To me, CAP 3 has been a learning experience not just for competitive Pokémon (though there's certainly room to learn more by actually using Mollux) but also for the process itself and the people participating in the project. Deck Knight honestly got dealt a very bad hand here. CAP 3 started in the wake of leadership drama, the likes of which haven't occurred in CAP in a very long time (I sure don't remember anything). Many once prominent CAP participants left between CAP 2 and CAP 3 for one reason or another: Jibaku, reachzero, DarkSlay, zarator, tennisace, Rising_Dusk near the end... I'm afraid that the lack of influence from people who have "been there" have caused the CAP community to become more confused and directionless, causing even more drama. I can't possibly imagine how anyone found the more heated CAP 3 discussions fun. They were trainwrecks. Again, I really can't blame Deck Knight for all of this; I disagreed with how he handled some things, but all things considered, I'm just glad he didn't blow up or something.

    If we are to continue to try to make successful CAP projects that give us a better idea of "the metagame", we're going to have to learn (and relearn, in many cases) some hard lessons from how this project went along, as well as possibly the playtest. I say this because there have been a lot of newer users who have won with first submissions. Let's take a look at how the competitively driven submissions panned out:

    Concept: Theorymon - a CAP mod, but still a relatively new contributor. His concept ended up being interpreted in wildly different ways, and the resulting disputes got settled with a vote where people didn't really get the benefit of understanding the purpose of each option.

    Stats: Rising_Dusk - a relative veteran, but one who really disliked the concept and basically made his stats for the purpose of Drought. Lack of information once again plagued this stage and the secondary ability stage, as the stat spread made for Drought was paired with... Illuminate.

    Movepool: nyttyn - new. When he started out making his movepool, he went in with no idea of how a movepool should generally be structured. Over the next week and a half, people helped him trim down his movepool, mainly to fit in with the canon, but without much to say on the actual competitive moves. The more I think about it, the more I think the combination of Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin + Recover + Toxic Spikes might end up being overpowered. We'll see come playtest, though. His attitude about winning this really bothers me, too.

    Now, I'm not saying that it's bad for new contributors to win. It's great for new contributors to win, or for a winning submission to be used in an unintended manner. It's another matter entirely when these happen to all three competitive submission stages. To me, it is an indicator that there's some serious reflection to do, at least when the playtest is done. People are already telling me that they don't know what Mollux was supposed to be about.

    I really do hope that the playtest proves my fears about Mollux wrong, but that doesn't seem likely. Either way, I don't believe that we should continue like this and end up repeating mistakes from the past.
  14. nyttyn

    nyttyn

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    Aww damnit Capefeather, I was hoping we could stay upbeat and positive. But eh, now that the gauntlet has been thrown down, I should share some more of my true throughts.


    This was a nasty clusterfuck of a project. People quit left and right, there was flames and drama for no reason, people got nasty with disturbing regularity, honestly this couldn't have gone much worse.

    The same troubles that have been bothering CAP ASB for the past week seem to be bothering the main CAP project - that is, people getting horribly nasty over people being wrong or right. We should remember that we are a team, I think. I tried to at least, with me posting every revision of my movepool in the main IRC chat for review and input. When I asked why others did not do this, I was told "so others wouldn't steal them."

    That, I think, is a very disturbing set of words. I honestly hope I was just misinformed, but the more and more I hear and say, I am increasingly afraid that CAP has become too full of politics and rage, instead of a team exercise.
  15. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Well, the submission contests usually do have people hiding their full submissions for the sake of competition. I don't think that that is wrong in itself. People have, however, often talked about partial stat spreads and specific moves, and that's where "team effort" can help with keeping people on the same page and making sure we're okay with the eventual slate. People used to collaborate on submissions, too.
  16. nyttyn

    nyttyn

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    I'll keep collaborating I guess and I hope that others shall too. I hope that next CAP is a lot less drama filled.

    On a side note while we're on what went wrong with CAP3 I really regret giving Mollux toxic spikes. If I could smite any one thing down that I have put forth for this project, it would be giving Mollux Toxic Spikes.
  17. GlassAbsol

    GlassAbsol

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    I love the way Mollux has gone flavour-wise. I think the art for this thing couldn't have gone much better however. I agree that this has been a ballsack of an effort to build a pokemon. I think that the poll to narrow down the purpose of the concept was, although necessary, a bit of a shitstorm for the less experienced members of CAP, which I am citing myself as being. It was a very complex start to the process and really turned away people from what was a crucial part of defining mollux. Because people didn't properly understand where Mollux was going competitively and why, confusion and disagreements came in during discussion stages and then arguments broke out. Not discussions, arguments. Now the lesser participants of CAP, even those that don't participate in the discussions, but who read the threads and then by reasoning between the points for and against different options can come to a valid opinion and vote, I believe were put off by the nastiness that ensued through some of the ability polls and from then many voters were disenchanted and Mollux began to lose it's sense of direction.

    Credit to DK. Great Job. Credit to the mods who kept the discussions moving as smoothly as they could. Credit to Capefeather as well for Arguing the toss at every point along the way and encouraging discourse.

    Well Done, but like Cape said, there were pitfalls that we certainly need to avoid if we want to learn more, and have a nicer time during CAP 4
  18. uwnim

    uwnim

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    Toxic Spikes shouldn't be too bad, worse case scenario, Mollux is used for Rain Stall which would still fit the concept.

    I would have no problems working with someone to make a submission, I am here to learn. Winning submission polls isn't important, making a good Pokemon and learning something is.

    Anyways, I like what we made and hope people are able to use Mollux well.
  19. nyttyn

    nyttyn

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    Thanks to a few accidents a small handful of people have already tried out mollux, myself included, for a short period of time.


    Spoiler alert:

    SPOILERS (open)


    He's pretty damn tanky.
  20. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Well, I have to agree that this CAP is pretty much contributed by a lot of newer people. Veterans quitting is inevitable (They have to quit one time or the other, even if they keep going on until the age of 649) but I think now's the time for newer blood to rise. Capefeather raised valid points about CAP needing a firmer, more familiar hand(s) to guide the project towards the initial vision, and I'd agree. But I hope too, that CAP continue to have more new members that makes the community more vibrant rather than an "old boys' research lab", something expressed by used-to-be lurkers, if I remember correctly.

    Kudos to Deck Knight for all his work as a TL. Technically, Deck is faultless - willing to listen, having a good vision, not easily swayed. Only gripe I have would be wishing you're more human, and more humane, Deck.
  21. nyttyn

    nyttyn

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    ^-- lol 69 posts I am so immature.

    Anyways, while I do agree Deck has done a good job overall, I do have one gripe that I feel should be brought up - You should post more on the forums man. To anyone not on IRC you kind of look like this person who makes up his mind about things and doesn't seem to allow input. I know this isn't true, but just something to keep in mind for you and future TLs - the forums exist!
  22. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    Yeah, I'm not going to lie and say everything was honky-dory, my OP was more narrative oriented than a lot of "CAP 3 was the best CAP eva" because it wasn't. I don't know how I'd go about rating the process for each CAP in an objective manner, suffice it to say, Fire / Poison is as much a description of what this process was like as it is a description of Mollux's type.

    That said I think it's healthy to have a CAP process that doesn't go well every once in a while because if nothing else it gives us cautionary tales going forward. My key concern with the concept selected was twofold: the stage that would define the concept came immediately after Concept Assessment, and during the concept assessment and type discussion it became clear that how we'd mitigate the "badness" of a certain type came down to pairing it with an ability. As much as I can try to get people to understand something, that doesn't mean it will percolate though, and it leaves me in a tough position. The CAP was never directionless to me because I'd had that experience with Cyclohm, and while I oscillated back and forth on a few things (Scald for example in the movepool discussion) I think I ultimately settled on decisions that will make our CAP notable for what its typing does for its role. There are specific benefits for our type that Drought may have emphasized better than Dry Skin (Scald's Burn is a non-factor with Dry Skin even if the CAP is immune to the burn it would otherwise induce) but Rain Stall still employs things like WoW Jellicent so the burn immunity is not entirely irrelevant.

    I'm genuinely glad the assessment avoided a role like "Bulky Offense" and was focused more on what the Pokemon specifically does rather than a team archetype typecast. Lord knows I was pulling for a different concept than we got, but we managed to turn it into a fertile discussion ground. It didn't really get nasty until we got to the various ability stages, at which point the fur began to fly. It wasn't that enjoyable and it got a lot of the community off track. You learn more from failures than you do successes though, so hopefully this will spurn a productive Policy Review session.

    Dunno how I can work on being "more human/humane" - in general I treat everyone exactly the same. I don't insult or berate them, but I don't lavish them unnecessarily either. My irl took a turn for the hyper-busy at the end as well, but that happened after every competitive aspect was over so I wasn't sweating it. In general I trust the community on flavor a lot more than I do myself, since I'm a bit esoteric in my tastes to put it mildly. It's a lot of stress to put on someone, and also being a moderator at the time just makes it more complicated.

    Same with "posting more" nyttyn. My activity nosedived at the end, but people had the exact opposite complaint early on in the process that I was taking too long dragging it out. Throughout the competitive phases I made assessments on each argument and ultimately went with one or the other. Most ideas are not unique and I learned a long time ago that no one reads quotefest posts, so I stick to arguments, not personalities. It is a bit robotic and off-putting for people, but I think in a very heated discussion that the leader had to keep the coolest head and not let one side run roughshod over the other.
  23. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    I have to agree with capefeather here. The discussions, especially the more heated ones concerning the Ability, were pretty disastrous. The Drought debates were very, very painful and were pretty off-putting for a lot of people (at least to the best of my knowledge). The leadership drama, as cape pointed out, was an absolute disaster on top of it. That's not the Topic Leader's fault of course, but it did lead to CAP3 getting off on the wrong foot to begin with. I think this Policy Review stage will be especially important to the future of CAP, because the new Policy Committee (new in the sense that this is the first true post-CAP PR stage) will have to set the framework for the future of CAP.

    Of course, CAP3 was more a victim of circumstance than poor leadership, as the leadership of CAP3 was rather good! :D

    And no matter what, this is by FAR the best flavor ever done on a CAP.

    *all that follows this sentence is opinion.*

    I think the best way to ensure a good future for CAP is to cut the drama. Leadership struggles, nasty debates, and paranoia about stealing submissions is not a viable way to proceed with the CAP Project. I'm not trying to call anyone out in this post (as I'm in no position to do so), I'm just trying to warn the community at large that the drama that took place in this CAP is problematic and that internal power struggles distract from the purpose of CAP.

    Secondly, does anyone else think that the debates in CAP, especially near the beginning of a CAP when the general direction of the Pokemon is being decided, are becoming too heated? The debates on Drought vs. Not Drought, for example, were disastrous. Often, the IRC channel was filled with ad homeinem attacks and generally non-productive discussions. I remember those debates being really off-putting and setting a negative tone for the rest of the project. Again, this might be because the pre-CAP 3 power struggles set a bad tone in the beginning and that CAP 3 might have been a victim of circumstance rather than anything else.

    Finally, I would like to draw attention to something that nyttyn said earlier. If you only read one part of this post, let it be this.

    This is just abhorrent in my opinion. Are people really too paranoid to contribute to the IRC discussions because someone else might learn from them? Shouldn't the purpose of the movepool discussions be to create the best movepool possible, not to hoard one's ideas so they can take the most credit? An idea made by a community member (read: anyone) should be property of the community, not a part of someone's idea stash. When someone comes up with a good idea, they should log onto the chat as fast as they can and yell "look at my idea!" rather than hoard it until the Final Submission so they can take all the credit for it.

    The purpose of the movepool stage (and any other stage) is to have the best movepool possible, not to take credit for the final submission. Great movepools are not made by one person, they're made by the community and submitted by one person. Look at nyttyn's winning movepool. He didn't wake up one day and think, "I have the winning movepool let's wait until the last second and take all the credit", he started with a decent movepool and posted every idea he came up with on IRC to get the community's input. In the end, he finished with a great movepool that belonged just as much to the people that helped him than it did to him. And it won.

    This is how movepools should be made. The CAP is made by the community, not one person. The CAP belongs to the community, not to one person. So why should people be paranoid about taking credit for the movepool and other people "stealing" (what an absolutely fucking stupid word to use here) their ideas. Learning from someone else isn't stealing, plagiarizing, or anything else bad. If you won't post an idea to IRC because you don't want other people "stealing" it, then you're not looking out for the community, you're just being selfish.

    Which is more important in the end: making a great movepool or winning the poll?
    ------

    Again, I'm not trying to sound conceited or anything, but can't we just get together as a community and collaborate rather than compete? Do we really need leadership power struggles, inflammatory debates, and idea hoarding? All of the drama and selfishness only hurts the community, and as a member of the community I really detest this. CAP was made so the community could get together, share ideas, and create a final product that validates their effort.


    EDIT:
    Haha, this is a really witty comment :D

    DOUBLE EDIT:
    You know you're on Smogon too much when you read irl as IRC, :P
  24. nyttyn

    nyttyn

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    02:21 nyttyn ...jesus DetroitLolcat's post is giving me mind boners.
    02:21 nyttyn It's the post I wanted to make.

    Seriously though thank you DetroitLolcat for saying what I wanted to say but lacked the words to sufficiently declare. This is a team project, and we should all remember that.


    Actually, Deck, if it's not too much, I have a small request. Could you perhaps bug Doug to add "+ the CAP Community" to my credit, or just swap it out with "The CAP Community?" As much as I love to brag -and you guys know me I fucking love to brag-, this was not 100% my work.

    Building Mollux's movepool was a team effort. And I want the credits to reflect that.
  25. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    It's not necessary to add it. Every submission is voted on by the community making it an inherently unstated under each category "+ the CAP Community" even for something like Name which is the most basic and direct contribution - people either like it or they don't. [Poor Bomshelk :( ] Most winning submissions for more complex stages like movepool incorporate both TL and community criticism before their final stages.
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