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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Final Product

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Deck Knight, Jun 24, 2012.

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  1. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    *is a new member* ... drama? What drama? Okay the Drought vs Non-Drought discussion (not argument... it was a discussion) divided the community. Both sides gathered support and the poll decided it. That's just how the process works, democratic as it is. We all participate in making every CAP even through something as small as casting our votes.

    I love how Mollux has turned out, not as I envisioned at start, but with every coming stage things took interesting turns and I've grown very fond of this CAP. I'm looking forward to finding out what the playtest teaches us.

    I think that Deck Knight did an excellent job here, and the early phases definitely weren't drawn out or too centralized. I missed that degree of involvement in the later polls, actually, but irl duties take precedence.


    I also want to add that I don't understand what problem capefeather is warning us against. Avoid commiting past mistaks? Could you be more specific on that? What do you view as 'mistakes', actually?

    That veterans leave and new faces join up is a natural process and healthy for CAP, without the influx of new blood interest would just fade one day, when the last veteran quits. Furthermore, as CAP is a democratic undertaking it's a good thing that new members win decisive polls: the CAP reflects the community with its new and old members alike.

    Are their proposals different from how the veterans envisioned this CAP? Maybe, but that's the point isn't it? Are they not familiar with the CAP process itself and what makes for successful submissions? I don't think that's the case, either; among those 'new' members there are lurkers (like myself) who had been paying attention and biding their time until they felt their understanding was sufficient to take the next step and make proposals of their own. Besides, how are they supposed to learn the rules if not by taking risks, making mistakes and corrections in their submissions?


    Like nyttyn I want and DetroitLolcat I'm looking forward to less drama and more cooperation in future CAP projects. And when it starts I'll be there adding my piece to the big puzzle.

    Meanwhile I'll track how the Policy Review goes - I might not be able to take part but this is a chance to learn something new as well. If you really found knowledge to be learned from this CAP process' 'mistakes' then that's where I'll expect them to be put forward for discussion, and bring in some positive changes.
  2. Morgrim

    Morgrim

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    Agreed. I've lurked on all the CAPs since Krillowat and this was the one I finally jumped in to contribute. I lurked in IRC and tried contributing and then got ripped into so savagely on such a personal level by certain 'respected' members (am I allowed to name and shame or not?) and got told in unambigious terms that I shouldn't be there.

    So I left.

    I'm far from the only one that has been burnt that way.

    I know this post means nothing from an unknown without a deep posting history but CAP is intimidating to get into in the first place, let alone when you actively drive off the newbies.
  3. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    @ Deck, Nyttyn basically summed up my sole, concrete suggestion for improvement - more presence on the forums. Not everyone can be at the IRC at the same timeslot, so forums are important to help non-IRC participants get up to track and be informed of what's going on. Even posting logs of the conversations (with approval or discretion) would go a long way to sync both sides of the community and avoid people going "Huh, what?" at some issues.

    That aside, I agree with Morgrim that CAP can be very intimidating. The reasons have been said countless times, but I'll say it again:

    • The competitive edge of CAP means it takes a lot of courage and research to speak up, because nobody wants to look like an idiot.
    • Internet is an ill-mannered place - there are parties who would do whatever to achieve their means, even though their goals may be trivial.
    The first point is an unavoidable hurdle everyone overcomes on their own. The second point is, unfortunately, also unavoidable. Sure, moderators gonna moderate, but haters are still gonna hate. In the end, it takes a lot of courage and passion for CAP to stay on after being dissed, more patience and self-discipline to not stoop to that level. I'm sounding very odd at the moment, so I'll stop here.
  4. AJC

    AJC

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    To me this CAP really shows what happens if you put in a really vague concept almost everybody had a different idea idea on what was a bad typing *AND* how to fix such a thing which really made a lot of divides.

    with people quitting this place all over with it not getting what they wanted makes me D: because that's taking CAP process way to seriously than needed.
  5. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    Deck Knight, don't be too hard on yourself here. This was a fine CAP, with a lot of participation, a lot of great submissions in every step, and we learned a lot along the way. I think we all have a more detailed awareness of certain aspects of weather in competitive play. We also took what can be legitimately described as "bad typing" and explored what constitutes bad typing and how to use it to our advantage.

    Like every CAP, I really don't care one bit whether this is a beast in OU or if it sucks. We *tried* to make a good CAP, and in the process of striving to make it as good as it can be -- we learned about the topics we discussed along the way. For those of you that are new to CAP, that is our mission. It's about the journey, not the destination.

    Yes, this CAP had some spicy debates, heated arguments, and outright brawls. Yeah, a few members even quit along the way. But listen everyone, I've been through 14 of these projects and I've been an active leader in every single one of them -- this has not been the most dramatic CAP, not by a long shot. I won't dredge up history, but we've seen much more contentious fighting in the past here in the CAP forum, and we've seen far greater casualties in terms of membership. Yeah, I'll always remember Mollux for having a bumpy road here and there, but it was by no means a train wreck. Far from it.

    Every CAP project has problems -- EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's the nature of the project. If people aren't arguing strongly for their opinions, then they don't care too much about what they are fighting for. If the entire community just kicks back and only posts in bold voting threads, this project would be pretty fucking boring, if you ask me.

    We set up this community to make an overt contest of every step, with one named winner and the rest of the submitters go home with nothing but the joy of participating. That structure is INTENDED to make people clash over ideas, directions, and decisions. If you want a forum where we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya, you came to the wrong place. CAP is about pitting ideas against each other, and forcing the community to choose only one in each step. That's inherently a contentious situation, and there is no getting around it. We should argue and debate with passion and reason, and then after a decision is made, we move on to the next step with no hard feelings or grudges. I don't think we should revel in watching people beat each other up, or hurl personal insults, or any other kind of unfair tactics. But get used to contentious discussions, because it's kinda the whole reason we do this in the first place.

    Another great thing about CAP is -- we try to learn from our mistakes. When I first set up the CAP forum and wrote our first set of rules and process guidelines, I wanted to make sure we had a process and a culture that treated policy as an ever-evolving thing. No policy is written in stone, and we explicitly review our policies after every single CAP. We'll take a long look at this CAP and look for ways to improve the process or to prevent mistakes we made this time. I personally have a couple of different PR threads I will be authoring, and I know there are other members of the PRC ready to do the same. Our project isn't perfect, but we're always trying to make it better.

    Deck, you did a fine job. You and I are pretty much the only remaining diehards that have been active in CAP since our very first Ice/Bug experiment. You know the deal, so I don't need to explain it to you. You had some wrinkles in your project, but all in all, it turned out pretty good. I'm glad you finally got a chance to lead a project start to finish, and I hope you feel good about the outcome.
  6. Project_Mars

    Project_Mars

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    (Note: relative newcomer to the CAP process (was around for necturna))

    Honestly? I didn't mind the Drought Wars as much. Yes it was very heated and split the community in two, but does that mean it was the worst thing ever? We had people fiercely debating how certain changes would impact the meta, and which one would be the most valuable in terms of testing out. It also highlights just HOW important weather is in Pokemon, since the other alternatives, Storm Drain and Water Absorb, were hardly mentioned as it became a debate over one ability that automatically provided one type of weather and an ability that made it strong in one weather type, but far less effective in another.

    Now it was fairly caustic, and that part should be avoided in the future for sure, but a good debate like that was fairly good for the process, IMO.

    I think we came up with a nice Pokemon that has a very interesting role that WILL have a big impact on the Meta. Between the stats, move pool, and ability, we can see how Rain, current king of weather, would hold up in the face if this versatile little chap, when teams could carry him just for a check to rain. (but sand would pulverize him, and sunlight has the potential to neuter him.) We know he will force rain to adapt to him, but how will he hold up to play when it isn't raining? That question will determine how successful this CAP is. If it can find homes on many non-rain teams due to being effective all the time, then success. If it is only seen on rain teams, then we at least learn that a pokemon's ability can trump typing when it comes to weather team viability... Or at least rain viability.
  7. Skore

    Skore

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    Just as an aside, currently on P-Showdown, the B&W2 changes are illegal in the CAP meta. Can anyone in the know request this is updated? Rain got a lot of new toys to play with so it would be nice to see how Mollux struts in and goes "Kelde-who?"
  8. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Mollux was designed for the BW metagame, not the BW2 metagame, so the BW2 changes will not be implemented on the Mollux playtest ladder.

    But after the playtest Mollux will dump all over Keldeo :D
  9. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    I would respond to DetroitLolcat but DougJustDoug says just about everything. I'll just say that equating simple competition with the adamant refusal to see the other side that constituted the ability discussions is, to be brief, dishonest.

    CiteAndPrune: I just want to make myself clear. Again, I agree that it's great for new blood to rise to the challenge and contribute. I agree that veteran community members phasing out is not a bad thing. However, the change would normally be, and should be, a lot more gradual. As recently as CAP 2 we had a lot of prominent contributors who espoused the kind of healthy discussion that benefits the project, and now most of them are gone. Comparing the last couple of CAPs to this one, I can't help but see a connection.

    But like Doug said, I'm aware there has been turmoil before, which led to mass exoduses. Maybe a CAP project suffered due to unrelated exoduses in the past as well (I'm thinking of people like DarkSlay and zarator here in this CAP's case). I didn't want this to be entirely about gloom and doom, and I'm sorry I've apparently made it that way. I just wanted to say I am genuinely concerned about not repeating some of the stuff that happened here, but I am more confident now that we can take what we learned in this project and move on to CAP 4 and beyond.
  10. Pokérob

    Pokérob

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    I think it's great you guys can have an open discussion and critique your journey of CAP3, I think it's good that people are taking on board the hardships as well as the glory. As a spectator I really enjoyed reading your progress to creating Mollux. I'm not as knowledgeable as most of you in this area but I do believe that you've come out with something really original and I like how you've tackled it's typing, I know my opinion doesn't matter but I'm happy you chose Dry Skin.

    Looking forward to CAP4, nice job.
  11. GlassAbsol

    GlassAbsol

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    Rayquaza. We intended Mollux to be countered by Water-Ground types. It was never built to counter Rain stall.
  12. Raikoben

    Raikoben

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    The only cons I feel is the sprite. The other option was better. That has the tentacles wound backwards
  13. branhoff

    branhoff

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    WOW! what a unique pokemon! A poison Fire type would actually be perfect for one of my UU teams (assuming this thing would be UU). It may even bring back the prospect of SunnyDay teams, which seem to have lost popularity to rain teams. Great job guys!
  14. tea_and_blues

    tea_and_blues

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    Mollux has turned out fantastic. It has a unique flavour, and really looks to make a niche for itself in the meta-game.
  15. Gamein99

    Gamein99

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    I don't mean to be rude in posting this, but why are all of the pokemon you create way too powerful. I mean 131 spatk and 45 atk?? So yeah is this going to be a physical pokemon.... And then good defenses and decent speed. I think you need to make some pokemon like sunkern or pidgeot, that aren't awesome but still pokemon.
    Aside, I really like the design and nice idea to make base typing work :)
    PS: i hope he doesnt evolve and become stronger, i think he is already good enough
  16. uwnim

    uwnim

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    We create Pokemon that would work well in OU, a Sunkern like Pokemon would be a waste of time to make. All the Pokemon we create are fully evolved unless stated otherwise. Pre-evolutions are made for flavor if the community decides they want to make any after we finish making the current CAP.
  17. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    They are way too powerful because the idea behind CAP is, first and foremost, to learn something about how Pokemon works by introducing a new concept or niche, which invariably means that the Pokemon we create has to be in the top 90% of all Pokemon in order to actually have any effect on the metagame... rather than just being brutalised as soon as it enters battle. Remember that the Pokemon we create are actually being used, they're not just there to look at!

    Although oddly enough, quite a few people have said throughout this project that Mollux is too weak, and others have said that base 131 SpA was indeed too high. As this is a democratic process, it is a sad fact that most people will vote for an option that makes the Pokemon strong over one that makes it weak, and as such the creation of a Pokemon such as Pidgeot through the process is slim at best, or at least, while we make them with OU in mind. It is unlikely that this Pokemon, at least, will end up being "way too powerful", as there are a number of factors that hold it back, such as a comparatively poor typing and movepool, as well as sub-par Speed. Even 131 SpA isn't that bad when you consider that things like Chandelure exist, with 145 SpA, and aren't even that good at the top level of play.

    EDIT: Also, there's no chance at all of this Pokemon getting an evolution, don't worry.
  18. Gamein99

    Gamein99

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    Yes, that does seem to make sense. And I agree that it does have some major drawbacks, 4x ground etc. Although it does have some sweet assist moves,(tspikes, dual screens...) and it really does not have to bad stats.
    I can definately see where having a group project makes overpowered pokemon, no one wants the new pokemon to have any faults, they want an unbeatable pokemon, the next best thing to a wonderguard spiritomb. Maybe you should make a pokemon with a lower BST and average stats, and then try to make that pokemon hit OU. Kind of like ol'drizzle toad. Great job deck knight and all others. :) 9/10
  19. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    We make Pokémon that look overpowered. This is inevitable, since we all have competitive optimization in mind when doing these projects. Whether they actually are overpowered has been an entirely different story, and one that has differed between projects. The last three CAPs, for example, are almost certainly balanced relative to the metagame they were built for.
  20. iDunno

    iDunno

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    Looks like a slightly superior Magcargo.
  21. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

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    SPEAKING OF WHICH... Mollux is just too cute not to get a pre-evo. Seriously, think of a baby Mollux. WANT.

    And everybody should really cheer up. Sure this was a really heated progect, but all was not in vain - look at the result! You've come up with the most flavorful, believable, and characterful Pokemon ever to have been brought into CAP. The debates in this project may really have been needed, because it was probably through all this careful discussion and consideration that we ended up with the best result possible yet. Although I hope that there are less disputes in the future over CAP, I hope all of the future progects can turn out like Mollux: brimming with character and lovability.
  22. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    I disagree wholeheartedly with Capefeather's (and some other users, but cape has been the most prominent) assessment of mollux as suffering from a lack of experience. It's true, Mollux did see a lot of CAP veterans quit (DarkSlay, Tennisace, Reachzero, Zarator, RD, i think i forget some). However, i don't see this as necessarily a bad thing. While some may see what happened in Mollux as a major problem, I look at it as a chance for a lot of members to finally come into their own.

    I was astounded by the amount of people who said "i've been lurking since x proj and finally am posting," and even more astounded by the amount of people that put a gen IV cap in that x. I also feel this way. While i did post in CAP1 and CAP2, I felt like i was shouting into a cat5 hurricane. With so many experienced, long-winded posters, i felt terribly inadequate even being in this subforum. Only with Mollux did i feel like I could say something and someone might actually read it. I, and other new guys, i assume, felt that cap3 was the first time we could actually meaningfully contribute to this project.

    And this was not a bad thing. The fact that a new guy's movepool won doesn't show that cap3 suffered a terrible drop in quality, because veterans such as Cape had also submitted - theirs just didn't win. It's not like, with all these new contributors, mollux was a piece of shit. It is brilliantly balanced for ou, good but not overpowered, and incredibly successful at its role and its concept. Did it have a bit of identity crisis in the middle? Hells to the yes, but it survived, and it's beautiful. new users winning four of six main submissions, being reigning playtest champions, and beating in the inaugural battle someone around since Syclant should show that being new isn't necessarily bad, just.... new.

    Life works in cycles. Rome fell a lot quicker than it was built. It's only natural that people should leave CAP in waves, because they form friendships and these friendships are more apt to move on together than they are one-by-one. Am I glad that lots of contributors left between cap2 and cap3? No. But it's natural, and it's not, as some think, bad.
  23. I have to say that I'm with Pwnemon on this one. Yeah, we hit some pretty rough patches with Mollux, and yeah, we lost some very talented contributors over its course, but that's not all bad. I think that some of the rough patches that we hit also sparked some incredibly unique and interesting discussion; I loved, for example, the in-depth discussion that we had at the beginning of the project about what exactly "bad typing" even means (I maintain mono-Normal is the worst typing). As for prominent contributors leaving, that's just a natural part of history when a project runs for as long as CAP has, and it too has its benefits, such as allowing newer contributors to be more confidant and vocal without feeling like they had to have been here for ten projects to actually be heard. Maybe I just feel like being optimistic today, but I think that there have been a lot of great things to come out of Mollux along with the regrettable, and enough people have dwelt on the regrettable, so I'm going to try to dwell on the great.

    That's not to say, though, that I don't see some things that I was definitely disappointed with. On of the big ones, already mentioned in this thread by nyttyn, is the issue of people forgetting that this is a community effort and that getting your ideas "stolen" is a good thing. It means that you had a good idea, and it means that, even if it's not explicitly stated on the CAP's webpage, there's recorded text right here on the internet testifying that your contribution affected the outcome. Heck, I'm still on my high from getting so many people to "steal" Mantle as their species name in the dex entry thread.

    EDIT: Oh, and because I just don't think that it can be said enough, massive props to Mos-Quitoxe for submitting such an AMAZING art design.
  24. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
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    If we're really going back to typing, I maintain mono fire is the worst. Looking at Mollux using Sludge Wave and Acid Spray successfully is just proof that the dual stab only helped offensively, and poison obviously helped defensively for multiple reasons.

    BUT

    It doesn't really matter. We picked what we picked. It is balanced and works fine in OU actually as intended. I'd argue final product-wise this has been one of the most successful CAPs in terms of fulfilling concept. It is so good against unprepared rain teams that I managed in one match to bring Mollux back from 31% (with sr up) to full. And then save it again from 11% after narrowly living an unstabbed stone edge. It does what it has to and can do it in so many ways. Scarfers, supporters, stallers, I've seen them all and none have been bad.
  25. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Wi-Fi Blacklisted

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    This looks like a very interesting pokemon. It will be interesting to see how he effects the metagame. However, in a metagame where rain, sand, and EQ's are so common, I have doubts about his effectiveness. Finally, I am disappointed that he didn't receive shell smash. He would've been the first pioson type shell smasher, with is definitely something to brag about.
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