CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 11 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[MCBarrett]

It's really not that hard to toxic most of an opponents team even without toxic spikes and toxic spikes are pretty easy to remove anyways so I dont think that's too much of a problem (heal bell/ aromatherapy use is pretty common too).

The reason mollux really needs toxic spikes is to provide him 1. with reliable poison stab through venoshock which is really vital to the concept and would help him become a more effective bulky offensive mon. And 2. Allow him to use his bulk and typing to give status support to his team. Also with these being the two main roles of mollux it makes toxic spikes a vital portion of his moveset as he wouldn't be able to perform them as effectively without it.

 

[Banryu]

Also thought I'd bring up Knock Off, which to my knowledge hasn't been yet mentioned in here. It seems about as harmless as any other moves in here (not much different from Trick), so why not allow that too? And by extension, the lesser Embargo, maybe?

 

[uwnim]

Knock Off isn't competitive, so there is no need to discuss it.

 

[Mari]

Disallow Ingrain
because of the following reasons:

- Ingrain protects against Whirlwind/Roar/Dragon Tail.
- Ingrain is only learned by Grass and coral-like Pokémon (and Smearle)
- Aqua Ring is already allowed
- Lefties+Aqua Ring+Ingrain+Dry Skin heal 5/16 of Mollux' HP per round, together with Substitute/Protect and Toxic it would be the most imba Toxic Staller I have ever seen, especially after it got a +Def +SpDef Baton Pass, and being immune against Whirlwind. Alternatively you can play it with Soak instead of Aqua Ring so that it can poison also other Poison and Steel Pokémon. I know a Abomasnow set with Toxic, Ingrain, Substitute, Leech Seed. This is very similar.

 

[Eszett]

Given that Mollux will often fight against itself in the CAP3 playtest metagame, I'd like to emphasize the inclusion of Gastro Acid without any movepool restrictions on its movesets. Taking away an enemy Mollux's Dry Skin opens it up to being hit hard by a Rain-boosted Octazooka, and a Dragonite without its Multiscale gets OHKOed by Modest Life Orb Mollux's HP Ice with only 16 SpAtk EVs. The effect on Heatran goes without saying, and Gliscor will certainly not enjoy taking damage again from its Toxic Orb poisoning. With good prediction, Mollux can even forego holding a Shed Shell to escape the likes of Dugtrio and its Arena Trap.

I do not think this move is gamebreaking. Tyranitar still gets to establish Sand even if the stomach juices hit it, Terrakion does not lose its capacity to OHKO Mollux with its STAB Rock attacks, and Jirachi remains as strong a threat as ever even if its Zen Headbutt loses 50% of its flinch rate. Levitators such as Latios scoff at being grounded, since they will take a pittance from HP Ground anyway and remain unaffected by whatever Toxic Spikes the cone snail tossed. This is not to mention that using the move itself exacerbates its already-severe 4MSS it has already and leaves it susceptible to Taunt and choiced Tricking. Gastro Acid is a high-risk, high-reward strategy which can throw a monkey wrench at many of the opponent's checks.

 

[Banryu]

Knock Off isn't competitive, so there is no need to discuss it.

Knock Off is certainly competitive. I'll allow that Embargo isn't competitive and that there's no need to discuss it, but Knock Off is still used competitively, and it's certainly worth at least a brief look into.

....although given that it is that it's been nearly 24 hours, that may not be the case. @~@ I suppose we'll see.

Before the thread gets axed... Blissey's Leftovers, Chansey's Eviolite, Choice Scarves of Heatran/Terrakion and such on the switch... there are some pretty valid uses for it, and it certainly isn't overpowered by any means... Plus, Mollux may not want to be forced to run a TrickScarf/Specs set in order to disable all of these items.
Allow Knock Off?

 

[Deck Knight]

And thus, verily, did the discussion end.

Yeah, Knock Off is allowed, Gastro Acid's been allowed since the thread opened.