CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here's what I think so far:

Ice/Poison -5/5

It's a weak typing which has never been used before. Ice is great offensively, and Poison great defensively, but together they cancel each other out. This poses a harder, and in a sense, a more 'fun' challenge to be working with. The way to go with this is either a bulky Hailmon, or a Glass Cannon, like Gengar. The designs would also be interesting to see and make. I would choose this.

Ice/Steel - 3/5

Yes, it is weak to fire and fighting greatly, but it is unfortunately too good a typing to be true. Why? It's a dragon-killler of course. But it does have its good points. The designs would be cool, and it could also function as a bulky Hailmon.

Fire-Electric - 2/5

O.K, so it does have a weakness to Stealth Rock, and a 4x weakness to Ground, but this is still too good of a typing. It is amazing offensively, with Fire/Electric STAB complementing each other. It doesn't get walled by Waters due to Electric and the only monotype it actually does get walled by is Dragon.

Bug/Psychic - 3/5

It would be great to see a design of this, but this typing is again too good. 4x resistance to Fighting and a resistance to Ground is great for this typing. However, it does get countered by many things. Steel, Ghost, etc.

Poison - 3/5

Poison isn't that bad of a typing, so the only way this can work is by using an offensive pokemon. Whilst that would be fun, I wouldn't go along with this.

Fire/Poison - 4/5

This is alright. Fire doesn't work that well defensively (Infernape) and Poison doesn't work that well offensively, so they nullify each other's high-points. This would pose a great challenge.

Ice/Rock - 3/5

Yes, it's weak to Fighting, Ground, Water and Stealth Rock. But think how uninteresting the design would be! And we would also be forced into using Wonder Guard, and I don't want to go down that road.

Ice/Psychic - 4/5

I believe this would work well, and I suggested this typing earlier in the forum. Weakness to Fire and Rock, yet being able to use Hail well is great idea! Well done Mari!

Rock/Poison - 4/5

Although design would be limited, I like this idea. It's a pretty bad typing, and unique. Well done Mari again!
If you have any more typing suggestions you would like me to post, feel free to ask!
 
What about Normal/Poison? Its actual Poison, but without Fighting resistance (and with Ghost immunity). Or Rock/Poison? Rock/Posion is weak to Ground (4x), Water, Steel and Psychic (but gets a SpDef boost in SS, which cannot help it against EQ). However, I don't like Poison so much because it can absorb TSpikes. I stay preferring Psychic/Ice.
 
I'm sorry I still don't understand why mono-Normal is out of the question. There are so many different roads we could take to make Normal desireable offensively AND defensively. For offensively, I know this is poll jumping, but I think normal typing would be desireable if the pokemon had moves like Fake Out of Espeed, or even with Guts STAB Facade. Normal typing is extremely useful because there is always a strong STAB move (Return) which gets great neutral coverage. In fact, a Scrappy mon would want Normal typing for Return spam with just one fighting move for coverage. The strong, reliable Normal moves are normally no good on other mons, but we could make this mon's typing desireable.

For defensive mons, Normal typing, although it lacks resistances, it also lacks weaknesses. Its neutrality to anything makes it not risky to switch in. The best sponges are the normal type sponges. Think of Blissey. Blissey can switch into any attack because it's most likely not going to be supereffective. If we can reapply the same reliability but to a more balanced defensive mon, we could make what's normally bad defensive typing into good defensive typing.
 
I believe mono normal is out of the question because just about every road that can be taken with it has been taken. Ambipom already has fake out and a strong return, and it functions even better than that with having moves like u-turn and ankle sweep to keep momentum on your side. We also already have Ursaring with Guts and stab Facade as well as Swords Dance, Close Combat, Crunch, etc...It even has Quick Feet which is basically guts for speed so it can use Swords Dance and then proceed to wreck with base 130 attack.
I would agree most with Bug/Psychic. It absolutely has its weaknesses, but I believe it could be really fun to use. As already mentioned it has some really key resistances it can switch into and then proceed to go on the offensive, assuming steels have been taken out.
 
The problem with Normal IMO is that it doesn't do enough. It modifies two types and is modified by three types. It's really mundane and you have to wonder how we would build such a CAP while keeping such a type the focus of it.

I think this is actually the most crucial aspect of this concept. The typing should be perceived as poor, yes, but the CAP's typing should actually be a part of its main selling point as well. Ice/Rock, for instance, has a terrible defensive typing which basically limits it to a fast and frail sweeper role. The question is, why would it be used over already existing Pokemon? As a physical attacker, Mamoswine provides much better coverage. Mixed or special sweeper? Kyurem of all things actually boasts significant advantages over it. We need to find a reason for its typing to actually be a benefit, not a total weakness that it needs to overcompensate for.
The overcompensation argument has been done to death at this point and I won't repeat why I don't think it would apply to Rock / Ice or Wonder Guard or whatever. You do make a very good point about "outclassed" typings, though. I suspect that a large amount of the typings being suggested and possibly slated are "outclassed" as well. Of course, that is probably why you suggested Dark in the first place! I wonder if Tyranitar/Hydreigon/Scrafty don't simply outclass the mono-Darks in OU, too, but I suppose some flexibility can be seen in the typing.

Ultimately, I suppose it comes down to preference. Something like Dark (or Electric / Fire in the tentative slate) is trying to put CAP 3 into a role that is not outclassed by existing Pokémon, for the sake of success. In contrast, something like Rock / Ice or Fire / Ice or Bug / Psychic is suggested with the goal of keeping all of the other stages of the process relevant. Neither is really a bad thing; I know people are wary of giving what may be seen as "embellishment" in future stages, but it's a real aspect of existing Pokémon and I don't think that it should be written off so easily, even if the focus is on the typing. I just think that more would be learned about the whole process if we picked something that we don't quite have a solid plan of success for.
 
I would like to suggest the Rock/Ground from 2typing for a few reasons:

-Firstly, Rock and ground types are generally slow eg. Gigalith and Hippowdon. Put them together, and they are also really slow eg. Rhyperior and Golem. For this reason. Their brilliant attack and defense stats are generally not used to their full potential. I think that by eliminating this speed drawback, they could become an unstoppable force.

-Secondly, Rock/Ground types have many weaknesses. A few of these are 4x. eg. Grass and Water. These weaknesses, combined with the serious lack of speed means that they come out are are (generally) immediately pwned because of their many weaknesses. I think that this is also one of the reasons that Rock/ground types are not used to their full potential. By eliminating this problem of many weaknesses, rock/ground could become a weapon of mass destruction!

If someone could find a way to eliminate the six (yes 6!) weaknesses and the fatal lack of speed so that it's brilliant attack and defense comes out then I think this typing has the possibility of being extremely troublesome in OU.

Anyone, feel free to expand on this idea.
 
Rock/Ground

Weaknesses: Grass(x4), Water(x4), Ground, Fighting, Ice, Steel
Resistances: Normal, Fire, Electric(0),

Great Suggestion!

WHY IT WOULD WORK

As said by Juicebox,Rock and Ground types have a tendency of being derp-ass slow. What's more, a 4x weakness to the common Water type and the not-so common Grass type, whilst also weaknesses to the very common Fighting and Ground types mean that this is one bad typing. We DO need to find a way to nullify the bad points and make it capable of at least an OU place, as there are none.

B,B,BUT HOW?

GameFreak were on to something when they invented Solid Rock for Rhyperior, although they didn't use it to the best of their abilities. This pokemon has to have great all-round defences, instead of just the physical aspect. What's more, with that ability being the obvious choice, we could instead go for Water Absorb, or the Grass version, Sap Sipper. But that wouldn't nullify EVERY single weakness. So what then. Standstorm is a good way to go, as it often scares off Grass and (some) water types. A weakness to Ground? Air balloon or Levitate! Weakness to Fighting? Perhaps Baton Pass if you want this pokemon to boost and ATTACK! And as Fighting type is usually physical, with Solid Rock or just plain stats, we can beast with the physical defences. Oh, but didn't I just contradict myself when I said that, as earlier I said that it had to be specially defensive as well? Sandstorm! Which leaves just Ice and Steel. Don't worry about Steel. Ever.
Ice is tricky. I can't find a way to counter this so please can anybody else expand?

To boost the speed we need one of three things:
1. Sand Rush!
2. Speed Boost!
3. Just fast stats!

But now that I've said all this, the stats seem too large, don't they?
I mean, we need some attacking options!
No, we don't. A BulkyMon is already good enough!

IS THIS THE WORST TYPING AVAILABLE?
One of. Weak to every single common attacking type, and the STAB is very similar and easily countered. So this does pose a challenge, but I welcome that.

Back to you, Juicebox!
 

Asylum_Rhapsody

Guest
I'm otherwise not completely opposed to immunity abilities, provided they do something to enhance the ability of the type to be effective (e.g. Flash Fire on Steel/Ice is dumb since it can't use the Fire Boost and seriously affects the typing...
I'm sorry, I don't understand this example. Flash Fire definitely does enhance the ability of Steel/Ice to be effective. How does negating a critical weakness not enhance its ability to be effective? Just because is can't use the boost to Fire moves? Says who? Why are we presupposing it would have no Fire attacks? And even if it doesn't have anything other than Hidden Power, so what? There are plenty of Pokemon out there that can't take full advantage of their abilities (e.g. Damp Jellicent). If the benefits of Flash Fire that it can use overshadow other possible abilities, why shouldn't we pick it anyway?

Ice/Rock - 3/5

Yes, it's weak to Fighting, Ground, Water and Stealth Rock. But think how uninteresting the design would be! And we would also be forced into using Wonder Guard, and I don't want to go down that road.
I don't agree with a lot of your critiques, but this one just seems especially odd. I've more commonly seen people suggest Solid Rock for this typing, not Wonder Guard, and I've also seen people discuss its beautiful design possibilities as a Comet Pokemon.
 
I've really enjoyed the discussions here so far and I'd just like to say I'd be happy for either Fire or Ice to go through for the community to work on.

I'd like to put my backing behind Fire/Poison.

It has plenty of weaknesses as well as a Stealth Rock weakness and a not stellar offensive typing. This has been covered by various people before so I'll skip ahead to why it's an interesting typing and why it would work.

When this discussion started I think most people were agreed that one way we try to fix a 'bad' typing was to find a unique niche for it in OU that could let it play to its strengths without being afraid (or even ashamed!) of its weaknesses. Fire/Poison may have a lot of weaknesses but it can single-handedly shut down Scizor 100% of the time by its sheer typing alone. Countering the #1 most used Pokemon in OU, that's a pretty big deal isn't it? No matter what horrendous weaknesses it may have, this alone gives it legs in the OU metagame. It is a pretty good answer to most Steel types in OU in fact and countering the most commonly seen type in OU is a huge niche. U-turn is a problem, but it can be addressed by either an ability (Regenerator, Flame Body, Rough Skin etc...) or movepool or some other combination and that is something that would be exciting to explore.

The Poison secondary typing may at first seem quite redundant offensively with Fire but it hits Water and Dragon types neutrally which could potentially be a huge blessing. A good prediction could see a Water or Dragon type switch into a Poison attack and be threatened with a 2HKO, thus it can be great deterent for those powerful types to switch in and offers that risk/reward which promotes good play - again turning what appears at first be an offensive hindrence into an asset.

What keeps it balanced is that it is also completely shut down by staple OU Pokemon such as Heatran, Jellicent and Tentacruel. The latter two are not overly common so again it introduces variety and stops it from becoming over-powering knowing that it has common hard counters.

For me Fire/Poison makes a compelling case because despite it having a huge roster of crippling weaknesses, it can be demonstrated to have a useful niche (countering the #1 Pokemon and most Steel types). It is two lesser seen types that have hugely exploitable weaknesses and are easily shut down, but it has resistances in just the areas that matter. Countering the #1 type in OU is a pretty huge gap in the market, and if we can get it right, this Pokemon will thrive because of the strengths of its typing in spite of its long list of weaknesses.
 
to speak truth i wasnt too sue about ice/rock at first, becasue it glaring weakness to priority and it may be a little too hard to make it useful withouth broking it.

BUT, such pokemon could make a very interesting technician pokemon.

ancient power, rock blast, rock tomb, smack down, avalanche,frost breath, ice ball, ice shard, icicle spear and icy wind. are all low power intersting moves which thanks tech and stab could manage to see some use.

even if is a little soon to be deciding the abbility though.
 
I see a huge issue with the proposal of Rock/ground

We've got a lot of pokemon that are Rock/Ground already, okay, few make it to the top of the OU rankings but that doesn't make it a bad typing. Defensively, it's a weak typing, Weak to water and grass 4x. However, Rock Ground gives stab on EdgeQuake, Now I'm not saying that we have to give it EdgeQuake but to make it viable as a typing, it would need to use either a very good STAB combo or an ability like Sap Sipper.

Rock and ground types are generally slow eg. Gigalith and Hippowdon. Put them together, and they are also really slow eg. Rhyperior and Golem
firstly, this is sort of poll jumping, as we're not close to the stats of the pokemon. Also the speed of pokemon in a type doesn't actually reflect on the usefulness of the type. CAP has already made a fast special attacker that was rock-type. The reasons you're are proposing for Rock/Ground fit the concept of Break-the-mold more than anything. We're trying to make a bad type and make it useable in OU if not good. We are not trying to defy the stereotypes and conventions of a typing based on the Pokemon that Gamefreak has made.

Rock/Ground does fail in the current OU as a defensive type but we see that pokemon even without the STAB boost on EdgeQuake can decimate teams once the resist (Skarmory) has been eliminated

I would like to see Rock/Ice given some more Support. In a metagame that is heavily disposed to use Fighting moves (All the fighting types, along with those who need to counter tyranitar and Blissey/Chansey effectively) And a tier that is plagued by ChoiceBand, Technician, Stab Bullet Punch off base 130 attack, we have one of if not the worst typing to have.

That said there are some great redeeming qualities. Ice/Rock gives us a good stab to go with on both the Physical and Special sides of attacking. The only Ability I can see that would aid the typing without removing the point of the typing is Levitate. Which would remove the ground weakness. While not being a major concern. Ground is one of the most common attacking types in the game and given an immunity to one that's common would be a good switch in that Ice/Rock wouldn't offer on its own.
 

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
First, I would like to post some comments on some of the already proposed (and slate candidate) type combos.

Bug/Psychic: I don't like this one very much. I honestly don't see what we can accomplish with this CAP, as Bug/Psychic already is a decent type combo in the OU metagame. The only problem it has at first glance is its inability to overcome Steels and a weakness to Stealth Rock. These, of course, are debilitating weaknesses, but I think with decent enough stats it won't really be "making over" a type combo because Bug/Psychic will actually be competent enough to exist by itself. Psychic is one of the most underappreciated attacking types in OU (look at Celebi) and we'll probably be designing a Celebi MkII without even realizing it. With just a little outsourced coverage to cover Steels, Bug/Psychic could actually be a standalone threat.

Poison-This is one of the most intriguing submissions yet, simply because Poison is such an odd type in OU. The most common Poison types are support Pokemon, meaning that we should probably drift away from support if Poison is chosen. Poison is usually only used to soak up Toxic Spikes and throw some nasty status at the opponent because it has little offensive presence (the moves are there, but the metagame is terrible for Poison Pokemon) and average defensive presence at best (when every other move is Earthquake, it's hard to be a defensive behemoth). This could be one of the most interesting concepts we've done if we choose mono-Poison.

Fire/Electric: No way, IMO. This really isn't a good typing for something we're trying to make over because Fire/Electric is already a good typing. It has enormous offensive presence, but little defensive presence. It's clear that we'd probably want to go the defensive route when designing this Pokemon, but I'm not sure if it can be done without Levitate or Magic Guard, and those items have already been taken off the table. It just doesn't seem like a feasible Pokemon to "break the mold" with, as we either get another offensive Fire type (and Electric type) or we get the Defensive Pokemon that Couldn't. Not my preference, at least.

Fire/Poison: This could be interesting, but mono-Poison still has my vote. This is just as interesting as mono-Poison, but what's the point of adding the Fire type here? Simply for the added crutch of the SR weakness? If we want to build this Pokemon off of a neglected type combo, focusing the project on the Fire type probably isn't the way to go. If we really just want to "break the mold" with a combo, then by all means this could work. However, I just don't see the benefits of using this over mono-Poison.

Ice/Rock: Well, we get two options here. Either take the easy way out and make a glass cannon, or take the challenge to build a defensive Pokemon. Honestly, the former seems to easy and the latter seems too hard. Ice/Rock, in my opinion, suffers from the same problem as Fire/Electric: it's too difficult to "make over" the typing because Ice/Rock is just too terrible a defensive typing. If we want to make over a typing, we have to give ourselves a typing that's possible to do, and Ice/Rock has, at least at first glance, one viable role in the OU metagame and that's as an offensive Pokemon. An offensive Ice type is not an Extreme Makeover in any sense of the word.

Ice/Steel: This one, however, could work. This is a more "moderate" version of the former, and that's why it can work. Steel types and Ice types already share the same weaknesses, so it has relatively few weaknesses compared to some of the other type combos. Ice and Steel also have mediocre offensive synergy, hitting a substantial, but not gigantic, portion of the OU metagame neutrally or super-effectively. At first glance, it's difficult to tell whether a "mainstream" Pokemon of this type would be a sweeper or a wall. Ice types are generally offensive, and Steel types are generally defensive, so an Ice/Steel Pokemon could be either one. This gives us enough scope with this project to do whatever we please. Along with mono-Poison, this is one of the best ones yet.

Bottom line: When choosing a type to go with, we need to look at two things:

1. What would a "mainstream" Pokemon of this typing look like?

and

2. Is it possible to build this Pokemon NOT to look like the answer to question 1?

If the answer to Question 2 is "yes", then we have a good typing to go with. Bug/Psychic could be offensive or defensive, and really can't accomplish either role in my opinion without looking like another Celebi but with Bug over Grass. Mono-Poison can go either way, giving us more breadth when designing stat and movepool biases. Fire/Electric is an offensive typing, meaning that we should design a defensive Pokemon instead. This, in my opinion, is not possible to do without an ability that mitigates the gigantic Ground and Rock weaknesses, and Deck has already forbidden those. Fire/Poison could work, but I don't see what advantages it has over mono-Poison. Ice/Rock is too extreme. We shouldn't build an offensive Pokemon like that because we learn nothing from it, but it looks too difficult to build a defensive Pokemon from it. Ice/Steel gives us more to work with, so it seems to pass the "looks good" test.

Bottom line: I support mono-Poison and Ice/Steel as our CAP's typing.
 
I don't agree with a lot of your critiques, but this one just seems especially odd. I've more commonly seen people suggest Solid Rock for this typing, not Wonder Guard, and I've also seen people discuss its beautiful design possibilities as a Comet Pokemon.[/QUOTE]


Sorry Asylum, I was just getting my opinions across. It's just that Wonder Guard was discussed previously in this thread, and I immediately took a disliking to it.
The thing with Rock is that the designs, and I still stand by this, are lacking of creativity. Rhyperior, Golem, Gigalith, they're all just formations of rocks! The only exception to this rule would be Crustle and Aerodactyl. But look at an earlier Cap where we had to create a special-sweeper Rock-type. All we got was floating rocks.
 
Fire/Rock is particularly interesting to me. It has the 4 weaknesses to 4 extremely common types, and two of those are 4x weaknesses and it has two really good coverage moves. And while it does have a smattering of resistances, those are relatively uncommon in comparison, and I'm having a hard time thinking of any pokemon that couldn't at least threaten Fire/Rock in some way (except perhaps some utility pokemon like Ferrothorn).

Which brings up another niche for Fire/Rock, which is to threaten common grass-based utilities such as Whimsicott and Ferrothorn.

Plus, there could be plenty of cool pokemon ideas built around Fire/Rock.


I also like the idea of Fire/Normal. It has a similar weakness spread (though all are only 2x), and trades a 4x resistance to Fire for an immunity to Ghost. It's offensive threat is also more limited, with Fire being it's only good STAB and good Normal attacks being few and far between (in addition to not being good for much).
 
So I decided that I'm not going to necessarily argue any of these points, but rather just mention the arguments I feel have had the most strength thus far and give an analysis as to why I chose them.

Dark/Poison
Dark/Bug
Dark
Dark/Ice
Poison/Electric
Poison/Fire

The metagame as of 5th gen has been mainly fighting Pokemon and steel. In the steel corner we have Ferrothorn, Scizor, Exacdrill(until it was banned), Bronzong, magnezone/magneton, Bisharp, Metagross,Jirachi, Heatran,Lucario, Forretress, and Skarmory. Fighting Pokemon have Blaziken(until banned), Breloom, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Lucario, Machamp, Mienshao, Scrafty, and Terrakion. (Now Granted that doesn't mean all of these Pokemon are OU, but they make regular enough appearances that I give them a list of regulary used guys in OU for their types).
Not a single person who ladders can say that they haven't come in contact with at least 5 Pokemon from each group I mentioned, and as such two Pokemon types have dropped horribly in usage, that'd be poison and dark types. Pokemon using Toxic and Toxic Spikes have been overshadowed highly by Thunder Wavers and Stealth Rockers, making the support aspect of using a poison type less and less due to how much steel have been around to ignore them. On top of that, waters have taken most of the defensive role this generation with Quagisre, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, RotomW, and Jellicent reigning supreme. Poor dark types have dropped enormously this generation. Last generation, despite numerous issues, many dark types remained in usage for a long time, but with newer weathers, better dragon killers, and better utility pokemon the top three dark types (in my mind being t-tar, weavile, and umbreon) have dropped far from their original place in the world. In this metagame, you'd be crazy to try and run a DD t-tar any more, as a ferrothorn or terrakion can can switch in and take you out no problem. On top of that, GameFreak further hurt all dark types by adding the ability justified to many pokemon.
So in summary, Dark and Poison type combo's are most likely the most useful for the original purpose of this CAP.
 
I posted this in the previous thread:

Steel / 118.662
Water / 90.271
Flying / 84.177
Psychic / 77.258
Dragon / 63.735
Fighting / 59.005
Ground / 49.127
Fire / 43.384
Grass / 42.958
Bug / 42.247
Rock / 35.001
Electric / 34.681
Dark / 28.987
Poison / 28.108
Ghost / 16.803
Ice / 9.915
Normal / 8.968

It is a list of all the types represented in OU with their usage % added up. It gives you an idea of which types you are more likely to see in OU.
 
This is just a thought, and it's not really something that Gamefreak would likely make, but I'm intrigued by the idea of a Fire/Water Pokemon. For reference, its weaknesses/resistances are:

4x Weaknesses: None
2x Weaknesses: Ground, Rock, Electric
2x Resistances: Bug
4x Resistances: Fire, Ice, Steel
Immunities: None


As can be seen, Fire/Water is an intriguing defensive typing. In terms of weaknesses, Ground and Rock are both unfortunately very common, and Electric isn't rare. However, no 4x weaknesses means that if CAP 3 was to be Fire/Water and was to go the wallish route, it would be able to take weak super-effective hits from opposing walls without having to worry about an achilles heel of sorts. In terms of resistances, Fire/Water has few, but just the right ones. Its 3 4x resistances are godsends which give a bulky Fire/Water Pokemon enormous amounts of options to switch in unscathed on many daunting attacks in OU such as Scizor's Bullet Punch, Heatran's Overheat/Fire Blast, and Mamoswine's Icicle Crash, to name a few. Though not quite as stellar, its 2x resistance to Bug can go a long way towards countering scizor. Unfortunately, weakness to entry hazards and status hurt Fire/Water's defensive capabilities. On offense, Fire/Water isn't perfect, but it's usable. An interesting quality that it has is the ability to abuse both rain and sun, an ability shared by few. Alone, the Fire/Water STAB combination is almost always either very effective against the opponent, or completely walled by the opponent. For instance, take the top 10 Pokemon in OU:

Scizor
Dragonite
Ferrothorn
Tyranitar
Heatran
Politoed
Gliscor
Rotom-W
Terrakion
Gengar


As can be seen, every single one of them (except for gengar, who can't take a hit) either resists the Fire/Water STAB combination or is weak to one of them. This would prevent a Fire/Water Pokemon from thriving as a sweeper (due to the fact that hidden power/ weak coverage options do not provide enough power to both break Dragonite and still sustainably damage Politoed and Rotom-W.
 
I'd also like to throw my support (for what it's worth) behind fire/poison, mainly for reasons elaborated above by others. Another huge reason that I support this typing is that I feel that, moving forward, it leaves us with more flexibility than the other typings suggested. It is feasible to see a fire/poison pokemon functioning in either an offensive, defensive, or support role (with its immunities to burn and toxic) whereas the others seem to need to fit within a predefined role in order to be competent (especially fire/electric, as DetroitLolcat points out).
 
I posted this in the previous thread:

Steel / 118.662
Water / 90.271
Flying / 84.177
Psychic / 77.258
Dragon / 63.735
Fighting / 59.005
Ground / 49.127
Fire / 43.384
Grass / 42.958
Bug / 42.247
Rock / 35.001
Electric / 34.681
Dark / 28.987
Poison / 28.108

Ghost / 16.803
Ice / 9.915
Normal / 8.968

It is a list of all the types represented in OU with their usage % added up. It gives you an idea of which types you are more likely to see in OU.
This quantifies what my earlier post mentioned about how representative fighting and steel are in the meta, and ironically we can see how little old dark and poison are nearly at the bottom.
 
Ice/Rock: Well, we get two options here. Either take the easy way out and make a glass cannon, or take the challenge to build a defensive Pokemon. Honestly, the former seems to easy and the latter seems too hard. Ice/Rock, in my opinion, suffers from the same problem as Fire/Electric: it's too difficult to "make over" the typing because Ice/Rock is just too terrible a defensive typing. If we want to make over a typing, we have to give ourselves a typing that's possible to do, and Ice/Rock has, at least at first glance, one viable role in the OU metagame and that's as an offensive Pokemon. An offensive Ice type is not an Extreme Makeover in any sense of the word.
I don't think it's that simple. Even if we were to make a glass cannon (not guaranteed), glass cannons are rare in OU, and they require very specific qualities to work. The Ice / Rock typing's weaknesses are a very big deal, especially the weaknesses to priority moves. I don't think that making this work is going to be "easy" by any means. That's exactly why it has been suggested. We have two Ice-types in OU right now, and Kyurem is worth mentioning as well. All of them operate in different ways. Not only are all of them rather low in usage (showing that it's hard to be an offensive Ice-type in OU) but they also have potential to outclass Ice / Rock CAP right then and there. All of this becomes part of the challenge.
 
A typing that hasn't been mentionned yet is Psychic/Flying

Why is this typing bad?
Offensively, this is pretty bad. Psychic typing, as we know, is mainly used because of the large number of Fighting types in OU, but there are a large number of Pokémon that resist it. Steel, and Psychic types aren't massively rare in OU, and Dark types have no problems switching in. Flying type isn't much better, as it can't hit Rock types, and.... Steel types. With Steel types being a common type this gen, not having any way to bypass them is pretty bad. Offensively, these typings also have very redudant coverage. Psychic hits Fighting types and Poison types, Flying hits Grass types, Bug types, and Fighting types for super effective damage. With this typing, we end up with a mon that has decent neutral coverage, but bad super effective coverage and no way to break the many Steels in OU.

Defensively is worse. The double resistance to Fighting and immunity to Ground sure are nice, but anyone with STAB Fighting or Groung moves are going to be packing either a Dark, Ghost, or Rock move, which limits its ability to switch in. Stealth Rock will rip a quarter of its HP off every turn, its Pursuit bait, and its hit super effectively by both parts of BoltBeam. Other than the mentionned resistances above, it resists... Psychic and Grass. Neither of which are particularly rare resistances.

Yeah. Psychic Flying is bad typing. Still, with the right moves, and well ditributed stats, any Pokémon could excel, so I think that Psychic Flying should be the typing of the CAP.
 
i think people need to stop trying to suggest really bad typing and post reasonable typing that won't require awesome abilitys and/or ludicrous stats to make up for the massive flaws in typing which i feel is suggestions like ice/rock and bug/grass are going to lead us too.
 
This is in reference to DetroitLolCat.

I think DetroitLolCat makes a good point. There are a few things I want to clarify, however. Once we pick a typing, it allows us to push it into the metagame with the threats discussion next. We get to observe and investigate in its extrinsic and intrinsic properties therefore analyzing its strengths and weaknesses. Whether these are novel characteristics that we discover, I don't know. But what it helps is to define the role we expect this CAP to take.

This is why I support Fire-Poison over Poison. Because of the greater potential, I expect it to perform well in the meta. I am not trying to discredit Poison as the support and analyzing for this typing alone is one of the strongest in the thread and I would be fine allowing such a type choice for the CAP.


Before I start this small reply, I want to say I, myself, have not explored mono-types as extensively as I should have. I think the lack of posts supporting such a typing is underwhelming and we should shift our gears a bit to revamp this idea.

If we expect too little, we may end up with more than we thought. That said, Mono-Types should be explored more. I think they have lower potential than dual-types and the pressure from the meta can be much, but it will bring some fruitful discussion. Having dual-typing covers some of the flaws that just a mono-typing would have, taking away in the aspect of 'worst competent type combination'. The biggest benefits are basically having a boosted coverage move, though it may not be a desirable typing but taken nonetheless, possible increased of resistances, and team synergy as weaknesses can be covered by fellow partners and create cores whereas with a mono-type, such things would be less likely.

I want to point out that I may be assuming a few things in the last paragraph such as 'good' typing meshing well with already existing pokemon. But I feel that some are inevitable anyways.

I stress again that while doing these type discussions, we should also keep in mind the potential they have in the current OU meta. We do not need to have long lists of threats in such a hypothetical typing, but hint at the strengths and weaknesses as a consequence of said pokemon if we project them into the game.
 

Okuu

Blame [me] for Global Warming!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnus
Just showing my opinion of Deck_Knight's current slate (and maybe proving that I'm not some sort of ice/rock voting robot).

Bug / Psychic: It's an unexplored typing, which I highly prefer to work with over any existing type combinations. It has six 2x weaknesses, with Fire, Rock, and perhaps Ghost being the more OU-relevant ones (Flying, Dark, and Bug are the others, but not used as often), while its four resistances include Grass, Ground, and a 4x resistance to Fighting (there is also a psychic resistance, but it's not a commonly used type). This still generally leaves it open to a super-effective attack, so it can be considered a defensively weak type. I can't necessarily something that can shrug off a Close Combat to be the 'worst' typing, but it is definitely a mediocre defensive type. As far as offense goes, you can refer back to where I mentioned the weaknesses / resistances of this typing, and notice that I said that both bug and psychic attacks weren't commonly used. They both lack moves with over 100 BP, and they cover relatively few types (Grass, Psychic, Dark, Fighting, Poison), and even out of those, only Grass and Fighting are types that can be expected to show up in most teams. So, to sum it up, Bug / Psychic is simply a mediocre typing, both offensively and defensively. It's not necessarily bad for this cap, as underwhelming mediocrity is one problem that we are capable of handling here. However, mediocrity is everywhere. Regardless of what fixes end up being done to salvage this type, the fact remains that if this pokemon wants to be an offensive force, it either needs an ability to increase the damage it does or it needs to dig deep into other typings for a movepool. Overall, it's something that I'd like to eventually see in a future iteration of a Pokemon game, but would seem rather lackluster to handle. 'Mediocre' is easier to remedy than 'Laughably Unusable'.

Poison: Its a typing that we have have plenty of in the game, but don't see at all in OU, unless it's tacked to a better typing (Grass, Fighting, Water, Ghost). And even then, the poison aspect of it is rarely used. As a defensive type, it sports two weaknesses (ground and psychic, the former being much more prevalent -and- easier to remove with Air Balloon). It has four resistances, those being Grass, Fighting, and Bug. And, as we know, Grass and Fighting are pretty prevalent in OU play. So, as a defensive type, it's actually fairly upper-class once you factor in a potential balloon. As an offensive type, however, it's pretty pitiful. Only one STAB to take advantage of, and it can only hit Grass types for SE damage, while being resisted by itself, Ground, Rock, Ghost, and can't even touch Steel types. So yes, mono-poison is a pretty terrible type. Without a varied movepool or some way to increase damage, there is little hope for this typing to lead to any sort of offensive pokemon. However, the problem is just as much with the rest of OU as it is with this typing. The types that it can't damage just so happen to be amongst the most popular choices for a typical OU team. It still has what it takes to dent Rain / Sun / Hail teams, if nothing else.

Fire / Electric: Another typing that's unique to the game, and is a combination of two types that aren't exactly the most popular. Only four pokemon exist in OU with a Fire typing, and only three with the Electric. And those pokemon manage to make it with the addition of a typing that actually makes it not as bad, or incredible base stats, or a varied movepool that can hit lots of OU threats for SE damage, or Drought. As a defensive type, it has a crippling 4x weakness to Ground, and 2x weaknesses to Water and Rock. All three of which are common OU threats. As far as resistances go, it only takes half-damage from Electric, Flying, Fire, Ice, Grass, and Bug type moves, of which few are actually common-place in OU. This already seems like a mediocre typing (not that bad), but if we toss an Air Balloon on it (as we should always be assuming), it essentially becomes a pure Fire type, with two added resistances and a rather useful offensive STAB. And most people should know the offensive capabilities of Electric and Fire, but just to go over them: Hits Water/Flying/Grass/Ice/Bug/Steel for SE damage, and is only resisted by Electric and Dragon. After seeing all this, I'd actually have to argue that Fire/Electric is a pretty good typing. It has relatively few weaknesses, and some offensive capability, especially as it isn't weak to Fighting as most other poor typings here tend to be, and can hit the Steel type for SE damage, which most other typings here cannot do.

Fire / Poison: Yet another unique typing. Fire and Poison have already been somewhat covered above, but not in a direct combination with each other. In a nutshell, it's the same defensive typing as Fire, but with a 4x weakness to ground, and an additional 2x weakness to Psychic, alongside weaknesses to Water and Rock. Offensively, the Poison type adds little coverage, so we're left with hitting Grass/Ice/Bug for super-effective damage, and with only the Rock type resisting any sort of damage. So, all in all, it's a typing with relatively few weaknesses, resistances, strengths, and opposing resistances. It doesn't necessarily need a varied movepool to be competitively viable, but it can be walled by a few pokemon (Any steel type that resists Fire), unless it was given access to moves of other types.

Ice / Rock: Again, it's a typing that's unique to the game. Both Ice and Rock are well known as types riddled with defensive weaknesses, and in combination, we end up with two 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Steel, and four 2x weaknesses to Ground/Grass/Water/Rock. All six of those are types commonly used in OU, and in general, about 4/5ths of pokemon with OU Smogon sets carry at least one of those attacking types. Meaning, it's hard to find a single pokemon that isn't able to exploit a weakness of this typing. The resistances that this typing offers number only 3, and consist of the 'extremely popular' Normal, Flying, and Poison types, along with the Ice typing, that I can actually say without sarcasm that it's helpful to have a resistance to. It is hands-down the worst defensive typing that this game has to offer. Fortunately, it has a saving grace in offensive capability. It can hit Grass/Ground/Flying/Dragon/Fire/Ice/Bug for SE damage, and is only resisted by the Steel type. In the end, it's a typing loaded with weaknesses and strengths, with few things it can resist, or is resisted by. A typing that is undeniably horrible in a defensive sense, but is desirable in an offensive one.

Ice / Steel: This final typing on the list is also unique to the game. It is a combination of a defensively poor type (Ice) and a defensively powerful one (Steel). Surprisingly, it only has three weaknesses: two of which are 4x weaknesses to Fire and Fighting, and the third is a 2x weakness to Ground (all of which are commonplace in OU play). With the addition of a secondary Steel typing, it gathers a Poison immunity, as well as 2x resistances to Normal, Grass, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Dragon, and Dark. Overall, the weaknesses are few but devastating, and the resistances/immunity aren't entirely notable. So yeah, it's not great as a defensive type. Offensively, it can hit Grass/Ground/Flying/Dragon/Ice/Rock for SE damage, and is resisted by Fire, Water, and Steel, the latter two being common walling types. Offensively, it's a mixed bag, wherein it is useless against typical walls, but can shut down some common sweepers, notably those of frail typings, or the Dragon type. Overall, it does a fine job of adding the defensively amazing Steel type to something, and still not ending up as a great defensive force. It's still glaringly obvious that it's part steel, given the numerous resistances of the typing, but it retains a frailty that can be easily abused in OU.
 
i think people need to stop trying to suggest really bad typing and post reasonable typing that won't require awesome abilitys and/or ludicrous stats to make up for the massive flaws in typing which i feel is suggestions like ice/rock and bug/grass are going to lead us too.
^This I agree with wholly. When I was submitting my typing combo suggestion I was wondering why we had to say it was the "worst" typing, because honestly, we want a typing whose qualities are underappreciated. That was the real point of the concept.

If we try to look at each type's defensive and offensive capabilities, we could really just take the best mono type from grass down, or use that type as a base for the secondary typing. Ghost, Poison, Electric, maybe Bug, Fire, and possibly Grass have defensive potential, while Ice, Ghost, Dark, Electric, Rock, Bug, and Fire have offensive potential. The best I see are ghost, electric, and possibly bug.

Since I think bug/psychic's getting some love, I'm going to throw in the suggestion of Ghost/Bug.

Weak: Fire, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Flying
Resist: Ground, Grass, Bug, Poison
Immune: Normal, Fighting

Why it's bad: First of all, it's got weakness to 4 important types including SR, Heatran, and pursuit. It's only resistant to 2 valuable types, both of which commonly carry moves that'll hit it for super effective (in fact, I'm pretty sure just about every weakness he has less ice). But that's just the start: Between ghost and bug, there are very few reliable offensive moves available. Megahorn and bug buzz are the only decent bug moves stronger than u-turn, while ghost gets... shadow ball and... nothing? Maybe?

Why it's good: Spinblocking and stab on u-turn. Also two immunities, including fighting. Golly gee! It gets 2 super effective stabs on reuniclus, starmie, espeon, celebi, and the latioats, and 1 on gengar and jelliscent, and completely shuts down mienshao. Also everything bug/psychic can do plus coming in on u-turn and scizor.

Role: Mostly utility and shutting down the offensive threats listed above. Could probably fit onto both offensive and defensive teams with the spinblock + u-turn combo and fighting immunity/ground resist.

Is it the worst: With ghost being the 3rd least used type (2nd not counting normal), it's pretty low down there. It's the worst that doesn't either become a glass cannon or rely on a completely defensive type to assist it; bug is kind of underwhelming in terms of both attack and defense, as it has less resistances in addition to weaknesses than grass. So it's "bad," but it still has good potential.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top