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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Apr 29, 2012.

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  1. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

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    To add on to ubersketchy's argument for dry skin, I think another advantage would be to force cap3 to rely on poison for a more powerful stab option. As it has been pointed out and is already known, anything with dry skin will thrive in the rain. However, being in the rain hurts cap3's fire type stab slightly. Therefore poison could potentially be its primary attacking option. Not only would this give poison a more prominent role for this cap but it would fulfill the theme of the original concept: making a type that is usually defensive, offensive
  2. fourkings8414

    fourkings8414

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    I want to mention that while this pokemon uses Dry Skin, it doesn't necessarily need to be in the rain to utilize it. Though being in rain would optimize recovery, using Dry Skin to soak up water moves like Water Absorb works to recover 25% of its maximum health. This means that we can still use fire moves on a practical level outside of rain. Just saying since people seem to be assuming that it will have to be on such a team.
  3. kingtrace

    kingtrace

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    My thoughts, in no particular order.

    Storm Drain is probably my least favorite. Though the special boost would be nice, there's not a guarentee we're running special, and even if we were the lack of recovery is a huge pain in the rear.

    Dry Skin A rain orriented fire type? I like the sound of that, but taking residual damage from sun is a bit offputting. I can see myself voting for this, but only if it's slated next to Storm Drain.

    Water Absorb Breaking away from weather (or at least as far away as one can get in Gen5) is a personal plus, and this hard counters waters in the same way as dry skin without creating a weather centric mon, which I never like all that much.

    Which brings me to Drought. Good god, Drought. I am so torn on this, and it's for not so good reasons. On the one hand, give this pokemon Drought and we've completed a part of the concept right there, we took a pokemon with a bad type and made it OU viable. The only way it could be a bad pokemon is if we gave it worse stats than ninetails has. Other than that, this thing is guarenteed to see usage. But is that really what we want? The concept is about a pokemon that overcomes its typing to do something unpreditable, and a fire type with Drought, regardless of it's secondary typing, doesn't really fufill that. We could have made it Fire/anything and given it drought, and now it has a niche. The fact that Drought is on the slate for discussion is confusing, as anything could be good with it. The benefits don't need to be discussed, they're clear cut. I beseech to my fellow CAPers, Drought is not the ability to get behind. Is a great ability for a pokemon? Yes, for any pokemon. Is it the ability that gives us the most to learn and makes CAP3 unique? That's the question, and I really don't think that it's the direction we should take.
  4. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    I can repeat over and over again the argument about Fire benefiting from Drought in a way that no other typing can, and Poison benefiting Drought in a way that no other typing can, but I won't. It's pointless if this argument is not even being addressed.

    It should also be noted that Dry Skin doesn't automatically mean that CAP 3 is going to be a sun Pokémon. It seems as if people are thinking this when they post, and it's frankly ridiculous. Unless we actually give CAP 3 Drought, I doubt it will be a "sun Pokémon" any more than Heatran is.
  5. Cretacerus

    Cretacerus

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    I like the idea of cloud nine as a more reserved version on drought.
    Cap3 wouldn't be so one-dimensional and centralized on its ability, leaving more space for playing with its unique typing.
    As with drought, cloud nine would greatly benefit the immunity to poison / toxic spikes.

    With cloud nine, cap3 could nevertheless be a decent check to rain teams, as they commonly rely on the power rain brings and 100% accurate thunder/hurricane.
    Giving it some bulk and recovery would be enough to tank weak attacks from bulky waters such as jellicent or defensive versions of politoad itself (huge bonus in burn immunity), as well as treatening the steel types commonly seen on rain teams (scizor, ferrothorn, jirachi) with its fire stab.

    Giving it a ability to take advantage of water attacks on the other side would disfigure the typing (which we chose because if its insufficiency) and turn it into something with only 3 weaknesses but 7 resistances.
  6. I think it's not being addressed because nobody buys it. I certainly don't, and I very much want to like Drought. The fact is that a Fire type benefiting from Drought is no typing makeover, and the benefits that Poison typing adds to it are a stretch. Yeah, it benefits from being immune to toxic, but you know what else benefits from being immune to toxic? Pretty much everything. All of the current weather starters either (a) are doing absolutely fine without toxic immunity or (b) wouldn't be doing significantly better with toxic immunity. I've tried bringing these things up here and on #cap, but it always seems to get dodged. If that's the best defense that Drought can put up, then I think that's a problem, especially considering its competition from Dry Skin.
  7. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Personally, I support Water Absorb. Drought has the potential to shift the focus away from CAP 3's typing and onto its ability to support the team with its... ability. Many players will view it less as a Fire/Poison and more as a "better Ninetales" when it comes to building teams, and that distracts from the purpose of the concept.

    I like all of the other abilities for this pokemon, but it can be argued that Dry Skin prevents CAP 3 from making the most of its Fire STAB. I'm not sure whether it would just act as a compensatory measure when CAP 3's facing an opponent's Drizzle team or whether it'd become a key player on a Drizzle team of your own, in practise, but again this brings the focus of the pokemon back onto weather more than necessary. If CAP 3 is being used in Drizzle, this doesn't shift the focus onto its Poison STAB, which is no more effective than before; it just detracts from its power as an offensive pokemon. Dry Skin also makes CAP 3 a worse pokemon on Drought teams, which also doesn't help to bring out the best in its typing.

    Storm Drain is pretty cool and I have no problem with it, but I think Water Absorb is the better choice as it lets CAP 3 circumvent the damage it takes from entry hazards to a slight extent, mitigating the weaknesses of the typing even further. For people concerned that we won't be able to break through bulky Waters without the boost from Storm Drain... that's what we have a movepool for. The power deficit can easily be circumvented with boosting moves, high base power STABs or excellent coverage options. Overall, I think Water Absorb makes the pokemon more flexible and balanced in general than Storm Drain, making it consistently better while the Special Attack boosts from Storm Drain may occasionally remain unused.

    If we end up deciding that we don't want CAP 3 to deal with Water types as effectively, then I also support Regenerator, as this deals with entry hazard damage far more consistently than anything else. Magic Guard is a more extreme option, but is somewhat wasted considering CAP 3 is already immune to Burn and Poison status. It'd thus pigeonhole the pokemon into offense, if we take Krilowatt as reference.
  8. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Well, that depends on what you mean by "typing makeover", and I'm aware that people have vastly different opinions on this. For better or for worse, the original submission speculated on both of the major interpretations of the concept. When doing plastic surgery, do you compensate for something that is lacking in someone, or do you improve an aspect that is already great but could be made better? Do we give Mewtwo Will-O-Wisp / Reflect / Taunt to make up for its weaknesses to Pursuit, Blissey, etc., or do we give Mewtwo Psystrike to use its already ridiculous Special Attack stat in a new and unanticipated manner that makes it actually like its Psychic typing?

    I am simply sticking to the second interpretation of playing to the strengths of the typing. I think that people are underselling Drought by assuming that it's going to be one-dimensional just because it can start weather (and yet both Politoed and Tyranitar have several sets). If you're going to stick with the first interpretation of making up for weaknesses (which is what Water Absorb and Storm Drain are doing), I accept that nothing I argue for Drought is likely to convince you. What I can do is clear up the misconceptions about Drought and propose the second interpretation as a TL-approved alternative to the first interpretation.
  9. sax king

    sax king

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    This wasn't listed as an option, but I think Compoundeyes would really help this CAP. Compoundeyes would still allow it to fend off some water types with enhanced power whips and Thunders, and although it can't switch in, it gets the advantage of boosting some other moves as well. A reliable Gunk Shot and Fire Blast would really boost this mon. A more reliable Will-O-Wisp would aid this mons support abilities, and with a wide lens, even the move Purgatory becomes viable.
  10. jas61292

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    I just want to once more say that the arguments for Drought helping the typing are not really convincing. Sure, Drought helps a fire type. That is obvious. But what is that teaching us? Ninetales sucks and it is OU cause of Drought. Drought works. We know that. I think kingtrace said it best with this:

    But I also want to challenge those Drought supporters to come up with a real reason why Poison and Drought work well together. Stating that Poison give a Toxic immunity and the like means nothing when that is beneficial no matter what are ability, stats or typing is. Everyone likes that. That's no more of an argument for Drought than it is for anything else. Basically, what I am saying is that there isn't really anything that makes this type functionally different from Ninetales if it has Drought, and we know how Ninetales works. Doing it again teaches us nothing.
  11. SunnyE

    SunnyE

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    I like the way this guy thinks.. but that would be more likely a secondary ability..
  12. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    Okay so people should stop hating on Drought like it's somehow bad for the concept. It's not. In fact, it's perfect, as many users have posted, for playing to advantages of the Fire/Poison typing and dealing with Water attacks in general. I'm just a little disappointed, I guess, that that's the case. The problem with starting with Drought is that it's neither Extreme nor a Makeover of the typing (sorry if this is all rehash). It's a Fire-type that thrives in Sun and a Poison-type that can't be Poisoned. It does nothing Ninetales can't do to compensate for the things that have been keeping Fire-types down through the generations, namely the SR and EQ weaknesses. Granted, Dry Skin doesn't do that either (it will let it heal off SR damage sometimes along with a free switch-in), and there are two other Abilities to go, and CAP doesn't have to be all about Sun, and all that. I'll be honest, too, Drought CAP would have a huge impact on our understanding of weather and ways to manipulate its effects, and a Sun-swept playtest sounds like a very interesting thing indeed.

    I just think Dry Skin is better (for the concept). The point of Drought is to weaken incoming Water moves, so why not instead discourage them altogether, or even better, profit from them? A healing immunity is much more intimidating to opponents than halved power, imo, so to that point, I say Dry Skin is stronger for this CAP (Drought even strengthens incoming Fire attacks, mimicking the negative side of Dry Skin to a degree). The path Dry Skin takes us is far, far away from the FWG/rock-paper-scissors stuff that's popped up time and time again in the metagame and continues to play itself out even in Gen. V's weather wars. Unlike Drought, Dry Skin is only situationally activated; the psychological effect on opponents wielding Water moves is stronger and it's more difficult to strategize against. This can be used in a myriad of ways and for all sorts of playstyles, even if it's just to lure out the easily-exploitable Ground, Rock, and Psychic moves for immune or resistant teammates. Stats and movepool can complete a Fire-type with Dry Skin that could fit into an offensive Rain (Burn immune, resists most priority) or Rain stall team (4x Grass resist, Toxic immune), a Fire-type that could check bulky Waters (and Bronzong/Skarmory) for Sand teams, a Poke that could check VoltTurn abuse regardless of weather, or some combination of those or things I can't think of right now. Drought CAP can still counter Scizor and check Rotom-W all the same, but it can only be used in Sun by default, even if it's not on a Sun-based team, which plays exactly to capefeather's second interpretation in the post above, but at the same point steers this CAP in a direction that I find limiting. At this point, I would use Dry Skin CAP3 on any team to counter Scizor, Toxic-stall Chansey, Thunderbolt set up on Starmie/Politoed/Jellicent, etc., but I would NOT use Drought CAP3 on any team.

    I think the promise is that if we let CAP have Drought now, we'll still get another chance to get Dry Skin later on. I think we should reverse that, heading into stats as we are, because of how crucial stats will be to this CAP's success and how great of an affect choosing Drought as the primary Ability will have on the formation of those stats. If we wait on Drought, the stats themselves will become useful in arguing for or against it as a secondary Ability, which will give people more concrete things to consider when discussing such an intense Ability. Choosing Dry Skin now gives will most likely give us more freedom moving forward while adequately addressing the bulky Waters as agreed upon in the Assessment thread. I believe we can accomplish both of capefeather's TL-approved interpretations, but not if we do the second one first.
  13. Uberksetchy

    Uberksetchy

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    Precisely. What are we learning by giving another fire type Drought? That it's awesome? Yeah, we got that part.

    What are we learning by giving a fire type a water absorb/dry skin/storm drain/screw you Water ability? Well, I don't see anything on the books with that right now, so I'd imagine we'd learn quite a bit more.
  14. Seven Eagles

    Seven Eagles

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    I'd like to suggest an invented ability to take advantage of the thing that poison does well, which is toxic status.

    If we gave it an ability like poison point/touch, but buffed so that it had a 30% chance of inflicting toxic status on opponent pokemon, it would probably become a much nastier thing to fight (although this wouldn't really help with water types)

    Currently Dry Skin is my supported ability since we said that it's suppposed to counter itself and would make it a pokemon that wouldn't necessarily abuse rain. It would take increased damage from its own fire attacks in sun but be able to counter opponent's rain teams in, uh, rain.

    Also seconding Korski's reasoning.
  15. Dragontongue195040

    Dragontongue195040

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    I'm not saying that I side with Drought, but that's not necessarily true. Having another pokemon with the same Metagame changing ability will NOT be the same, and I'm sure that should we choose Drought everyone will try to prevent our poke from being very similar to Ninetales. A common example of this would be Tyranitar and Hippowdon- they share the same ability, but their movepools and stats are different, and therefore they are very different pokemon.
    Also remember that the main focus to this thread is to find something that counters water types IN RAIN. That's why Drought is an option.
  16. Todd

    Todd

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    I agree with Korski; dry skin should be the base ability that stats are based off of, but in order for CAP 3 to survive in OU, drought is a necessity as the secondary ability. Giving CAP 3 a water immunity is not going to give CAP 3 anything over rain teams, except make it easier to switch in (which the stealth rock weakness makes slightly less appealing).

    But once CAP 3 is done and made, and it's using dry skin or another water immune ability, then you're going to start seeing Starmie with psychic, or more Swampert, or maybe every bulky water will start to carry HP ground. In other words, unless CAP 3 is given super speed, offenses, and great coverage moves, bulky waters and water types in general will start carrying moves that bypass the water immunity and kill it quickly anyway, because even though a water immunity is cool, it's still only an immunity to one type of attack. Water immunities sound sweet on a fire type, and I'd still love to see it, but it'll be short lived and over unless it's given drought as well.
  17. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Okay. Everyone would like being immune to Toxic, sure... just as everyone would like being immune to Water. But some would like Toxic immunity more than others.

    Take Choice Scarf Landorus, for instance (or Wash Rotom). Sure, it would help if Landorus got hit with Toxic, but what you really want to do usually when you want to KO Landorus is to, well, actually KO it. You're usually not going to hit it unless you do it on the switch, and then why bother using Toxic when you can just nail it with an attack? Landorus is more of a supporting attacker that can be sacrificed when it's not needed anymore. It would lose a lot more by replacing either of its types with Poison (or even Steel) than it would gain by being immune to Toxic.

    Now let's look at a setup sweeper, like Dragonite, Salamence, or Gyarados. These Pokémon do what they do by setting up and muscling past the opposition, or simply wrecking their faces before they can do anything back. Toxic would put them on a timer, killing a lot of their ability to do what they need to do: last long enough to beat the opponent before they die. Unlike Choice Scarf Landorus, the opponent likely needs to kill the sweeper by any means, because otherwise he/she loses. Likewise, the user of the sweeper will protect it from tactics such as Toxic stalling, usually by taking steps to ensure that it can't happen. Remember when rain was a dominant force in DPP? I sure don't. It's the same idea here. It would certainly be interesting to me to see what would have happened if Dragonite or Salamence were Dragon / Poison rather than Dragon / Flying, and similarly for Gyarados. (Also notice how Lucario, probably the most quintessential example of a dedicated late-game sweeper, is immune to Poison.)

    The weather starters don't usually sweep, but they really operate on the same principle as the sweepers. As long as the right weather is up and can be put up again, teammates that benefit from the weather have a rather significant advantage. As soon as the weather starter is gone, both the advantage and the threat of regaining it disappear. The opponent generally wants the weather starter dead through any means, and that can be harder than with a sweeper because the weather user loses less by just switching the weather starter out. That's where Toxic immunity comes in. Recovery through a move or Regenerator would also be great for a weather starter, but since our focus is on using the typing, this is such a good way to use the concept that it seems a waste not to explore it.

    Ultimately, the flaw with the argument
    is that a weather starter with a Toxic immunity DOES NOT EXIST and so we CAN'T really say whether the existing weather starters are "fine". We simply do not know how "fine" a weather starter could be. Notice how all of the weather starters (including the Uber ones) have no recovery (outside of Rest / Leech Seed, and excluding the rather inconsequential Hippowdon) and are vulnerable to all entry hazards (excluding the again inconsequential Groudon and Hippowdon with Stealth Rock). So what would happen if a weather starter DID lose one of these disadvantages AND was successful in OU? THAT is the kind of question that Drought CAP 3 could answer.
  18. jas61292

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    The problem I have with your argument capefeather is that we do not know what role this Pokemon will take even if we do give it Drought. Its just as likely to be a Pokemon like Landorus as it is to be one like Ninetales. We have not chosen that yet. The role it takes with Drought could be identical to the one it takes with Dry Skin, and it will like the Toxic immunity as much either way.

    And some want Water immunities more than others. But that depends on the role, not the ability. CAP 3 is immune to Toxic no matter what role it goes. That has nothing to do with Drought.
  19. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

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    The last thing I'm going to say against the use of drought is that even with a toxic resistance im pretty sure this cap would be just as easy to get rid of as a ninetales would be. First of all even with drought in place this thing will still take quite a hit from a stab hydro pump as I think someone pointed out earlier. Also, an even bigger counter would be dugtrio. No reason to try and toxic it when you have it arena trapped and have a stab 4x super effective eq. Basically what I'm trying to point out is that drought won't help this thing much more than it would any other poke and that we are basically just going to see more of the same as it should be taken care of easily just like ninetales is now.
  20. The Reptile

    The Reptile AMH REALLY SPHEALING IT
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    Lets look at what we're suppose to threaten, and what threatens us.


    Notice a problem here? While we do technically threaten Water-types and Politoed, Politoed threatens us out by changing the weather and forcing us out with powerful STAB Water attacks in the rain.

    Because of this, Drought does not let us reliably threaten Water-types. In fact we only threaten them out if our Sun is up. A Water-type in a Sand/Team with Ttar also threatens us if our sun isn't up. The only water-types we threaten reliably are those that function in no weather at all (since Sun teams do not use water-types for obvious reasons)

    For this reason, I think that CAP 3 should NOT use Drought as it's main ability.
  21. srk1214

    srk1214 The Wuthering Heights of Billionaire Gay Dinosaur Fiction
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    This^

    If we are using Drought to combat Water-types, it HAS to be able to do so ESPECIALLY against rain teams. If it has to switch out every time the opposing Politoed comes in and resets weather, that doesn't seem like a very good Water-type counter...
  22. Birkal

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    Meh, I don't buy this. Theoretically, Politoed threatens out Tyranitar too. While this may be the case, Toed absolutely hates CB Crunch or some powerful neutral hit from Ttar. Tyranitar can also set up SR on the switch in, which while it doesn't threaten Politoed directly, it threatens the entire opposing team.

    CAP3 could very much fall into the same boat. We could really go a few directions on this, through either giving it a strong Poison-type STAB, letting it set up hazards on the switch-in, or giving it some strong SE coverage to hit Water-types on the switch-in. There are plenty of ways to make a Droughtmon threatening to Politoed; an exercise in creativity in terms of how to do that would be fascinating, in my opinion.

    I am still thinking that Drought is our best ability here. The really cool thing about it is that it allows CAP3 to threaten Water-types as a whole team. This is something significant that Dry Skin, Water Absorb, and Storm Drain cannot do. Furthermore, I have difficulty believe that a "Water-type absorbing" ability would truly threaten Water-types. Look in OU: almost all Water-types have some meaningful way to get around that weakness and threaten CAP3. Slowbro and Starmie both can use Psychic-STAB while Cloyster gets Rock Blast. Gyarados receives Stone Edge, so it can probably just set up on CAP3 anyways with a Sub or DD. Vaporeon and Tentacruel can both set up on CAP3 with Wish and Tspikes respectively. This leaves Jellicent (sets that are only using their Water-STAB) and some sets of Politoed. I'm not convinced that those abilities will adequately do the job of threatening Water-types, when they already have the tools to threaten CAP3.

    Drought, on the other hand, has an incredibly interesting dynamic in stopping Water-types. For example, CAP3 could potentially switch in on a Starmie abusing Hydro Pump in the rain to severely hinder its damage output. Starmie could have the option to switch to Psyshock (if it's running it), so CAP3 has the option to get out of dodge to bring in a Pokemon that normally couldn't have threatened Starmie due to Hydro Pump, like Scizor and potentially Jolteon, to name a few. While that situation isn't always going to happen, it's the study of that flow that highly intrigues me. Threatening Water-types as a team player is what we should pursue, not a simple "water absorbing" ability that doesn't allow us to meaningfully stop Water-types that can dismantle CAP3 without resorting to their Water STAB anyways.
  23. Todd

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    Politoed would still be able to kick it's ass with a water immune ability.

    Choice specs politoed, if running with psychic (which it may start doing quite a bit once CAP 3 goes online) and with a timid nature will more often than not 2HKO a Muk (who has the same weakness as CAP 3 and pretty damn good HP and SpD) with a neutral nature and 252 SpD ev investment pretty often. It doesn't take much prediction for someone sending out a choice specs politoed to predict that the other person will switch in CAP 3 to counter it (since everyone's going o about what a great water counter it is) and use psychic, which would hit it on the switch and then kill it the next turn, and that's with Muk's impressive special bulk.
  24. Kaprikorn

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    I'm a little afraid to bring this up, because I know there's a lot of animosity against custom abilities, but what about something like Drought that only lasts while CAP3 is in? This removes the concern that CAP3's sole selling point will be Drought while still providing the Water-stopping effect of sun.
  25. Deck Knight

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    Good job on the discussion, folks. Time to wrap this up.

    I'll be polling Drought vs. Dry Skin. The fact is, everything is subject to weather in OU because weather is the most dominant playstyle, especially if you aggregate all weathers. This should be fun.
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