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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, May 11, 2012.

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  1. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Deck, it seems to me like you are missing the point when it comes to arguments against Drought. First, you talk about how sun sweepers can beat it, but really, what does that even mean? Venusaur is the only sun sweeper even in OU (and most are in RU or worse). Unless we are resigned to the fact that Drought CAP3 would be so ridiculous that sun would become dominant and it would pull guys out of the depths of NU (which itself would be a reason not to give it drought), then it doesn't matter if it loses to Exeggutor, cause it will never see it. And even more importantly, this only matters if your opponent has sun sweepers, which they only will if they are running sun themselves. If we are resigned to only beating drought by running drought, then something is wrong. Additionally, as FlareBlitz showed previously, its counters, bar T-Tar, CANNOT take a hit and still KO back. At least not more than one hit. Sure Terrakion isn't OHKOd, but it can only come in once. Switch out after that and Terrakion is no longer a threat to you.

    Also, what you talk about with Dry Skin in sun makes no sense. Drought outclasses it in every way. Everything you talked about is done better by a drought one than a Dry Skin one. The only exception is a double switch vs a chlorophyll sweeper outside sun. But lets think about that one for a second. When will it be outside sun? If its on a sun team, the player will likely set up sun before sending in its sun sweepers. So really, that means this would have to be in rain or sand, most likely with them having just switched out from Ninetales. Its not a common situation, and not one where you will likely be switching in CAP3 anyways. But then, even so, it doesn't matter in the slightest, as the only sun sweeper that matters, Venusaur, still outspeeds anyways. Which means you lose absolutely nothing by running Drought over Dry Skin.

    And finally, as for the typing itself, Toxic and Burn immunities help every Pokemon. Trying to call that more important to weather starters than other Pokemon is just foolish, especially when we have what amounts to an offensive stat spread. In fact, the only actual reasons related to the typing that I have seen people give in favor of drought are just the natural benefits of the typing that are important no matter what ability is chosen.

    All that being said, I cannot possibly see a way that Drought will not completely overshadow Dry Skin in every way. It lets it beat every one of its counters bar T-Tar, and turns a Pokemon its supposed to counter, Politoed, into one that can switch into it and force it out. It is not at all in line with the direction we have chosen, and frankly I cannot understand why we are still considering it in light of that.

    Personally, I support No Competitive Ability. Dry Skin will be enough to give it a niche in OU. There is a reason the vast majority of OU Pokemon only have one useful ability, cause one role is so much better than the other. We chose Dry Skin, and we should not be choosing anything else that will overshadow that.
  2. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    Well, prem's post is the one I'm going to answer here. I argue three points:

    1. CAP 3's stats are more comparable to Gyarados and Volcarona than Tyranitar.

    Straight-up. You can go ahead and use the BSR calculator linked in the stat threads to compare the stats of CAP 3 to stuff like Gyarados and Volcarona, as well as stuff like Heatran, Dragonite and Tyranitar. The latter group has significantly better stats. More to the point, CAP 3's physical bulk is significantly smaller than Tyranitar's, which I think is pretty crucial. Remember also that Tyranitar can actually use both physical and special moves effectively. In making my own stat submission and seeing a very similar submission get slated and win, I'm fairly confident that claims that CAP 3's stats are on the level of Tyranitar are a load of crock.

    Anyway, I wanted to get that point out of the way since I think the other two are more important:

    2. To look at Pokémon that used to be NU but are now OU, and ignore Pokémon that have always been OU probably because of their ability, is rather biased.

    You know Ninetales is "supposed to be bad" because it was bad in previous generations. This is a classic case of confirmation bias. What about Dragonite? Salamence? Tentacruel? Lati@s? Wash Rotom? Sometimes I wonder how many of the Levitate-wielding OU Pokémon would still be OU without Levitate. I'm not sure whether Dragonite and Salamence would be OU or not without Multiscale/Intimidate/Moxie; what I am sure of is that they'd be a lot worse. I also think Tentacruel would have been pretty bad without Rain Dish, if not UU. I mean, it was already flirting with UU last generation...

    3. In a weather war, every % counts.

    This one I guess is also relevant to what jas61292 is saying. A weather starter does not have to be OHKOed to be defeated. As it stands, Politoed is not going to go away just because a new weather starter is in town. It already inherently has an advantage against Ninetales because of the latter's Stealth Rock weakness (which CAP 3 shares) and its lower Speed, which allows it to set up weather guaranteed in the lead matchup (unless it's Choice Scarf) (btw it's also slower than CAP 3). Neither wants to switch into Politoed, not just because they're not great at taking STABs from offensive variants even in the sun, but also because they're going to take at least 25% damage from the encounter, if Stealth Rock is up. To make things worse, entry hazard disadvantages are really compounded for a weather starter, since it has to survive entry hazard damage to set up its weather. Once the weather starter is within entry hazard kill range, Leftovers and Rapid Spin shenanigans notwithstanding, the opponent is free even to risk getting his/her own weather starter killed, because he/she's already won the weather war. Anyone who gets into the habit of switching Ninetales or even Tyranitar into Politoed learns not to do it, or at least not to take such a decision lightly. This is different from more "average Joe" attackers like Haxorus, who doesn't really care as much about taking damage as long as it isn't dead and can start smashing things.

    ---

    Some other random points that I can't fit anywhere else:

    I'm not convinced that Politoed is going to go away just because of Dry Skin CAP 3. Also, jas, didn't we already discuss the matter of why a weather starter would like Toxic immunity more than many other archetypes would?

    Let's remember that CAP 3 is pretty slow. Being slow changes so much about how a Pokémon can use its power that it's not even funny. Just ask Chandelure. Point being, CAP 3 is extremely vulnerable to revenge kills, and that won't change whether it has Dry Skin or Drought or really anything other than Levitate or Wonder Guard. "It's gonna kill everything!!!" sounds a lot scarier when you completely ignore Speed. And yes, the power that it wields with its STAB is scary, but let's avoid exaggeration here.

    I guess I'd like to point out an amusing relationship between Dry Skin and Drought, even if it ends up not being all that relevant or game-changing. With Dry Skin, we check Water-types directly by switching into them. With Drought, we check Water-types indirectly by switching into, say, Ferrothorn.
  3. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    It is very true that it is not fair to look at something and judge it by what tier it is supposed to be. Anyone who has read any of my long posts on banning policy and such would know I am firmly against any such biases. However, what I think you are overlooking is that the difference between those two and the others you put out there is more than just their gen4 tier. You made a BSR comparison yourself earlier in your post, so let me make one here:

    Abomasnow: 250
    Politoed: 268
    Rotom-W: 273
    Ninetales: 276
    Tentacruel: 287
    Tyranitar: 354
    Dragonite: 362
    Latias: 381
    Latios: 393
    Salamence: 395

    Those are the BSRs of the Pokemon you presented and the ones with weather abilities. All but Abomasnow are OU. And yet, the non weather starter Pokemon you presented all outclass the Politoed, Ninteales and Abomasnow in BSR, except for Rotom-W who is slightly below Ninetales. And in that one case, Rotom-W is notable for having a significantly better typing and movepool than Ninetales. While Rotom-W and Tentacruel may not have the greatest BSR and may not be OU without their abilities, the thing that separates the weather starters and the other OU Pokemon is how much they fall without their abilities. I mean, look at last gen, Dragonite was not anywhere near what it is now with Multiscale, but it was still OU, while Politoed and Ninetales were NU.

    Basically what I am saying is that there is a key difference between Drought, Drizzle and other abilities. Sure, Pokemon are OU because of abilities all the time, but only because the abilities supplement what is already a good Pokemon. Only a select few abilities can drag someone from the depths of NU to the top of OU without any other changes. And when you give such an ability to a Pokemon that is already poised to be a decent OU threat? Well, we have ubers for a reason. Now this is not to say it is inherently broken, but the difference between the Pokemon you presented and other OU mons is more than just an ability.
  4. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

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    The Potency of Harvest

    Posting in the hopes of more thoroughly convincing people that Harvest would be a great ability for CAP 3. I know it is a tangent to the debate over drought, but I hope that after reading this, you may feel Harvest may be a worthy and usable ability for CAP 3

    The ability Harvest recollects used berries 50% of the time per turn in any whether besides sun and 100% of the time in sun. This ability has previously only been given to Exeggutor and Tropius. Neither of these Pokémon are competitively viable in the current metagame due to low speed stats and paper thin defenses. In contrast, CAP 3 has the potential to showcase the true potential of this ability by virtue of its bulk and workable speed. It would be able to showcase the stalling uses of sitrus berry+sub+toxic and Rest+Lum Berry (should we chose to give it these moves, and it could provide extra utility by virtually eliminating a weakness via a resistance berry. Also, when stat boosting berries are released, they could be used to increase this CAP’s options and then show us the viability of such berry abusing tactics.

    Now I recognize that the CAP community isn’t trying to create the most powerful Pokémon it can. It wants to learn about the Pokémon metagame, Pokémon abilities, and the different elements that help create competitively viable Pokémon. I contest that harvest will allow us to accomplish this goal. Harvest is a previously unexplored ability, and its possible impacts on the metagame are unknown, and it would allow us to answer several questions concerning harvest such as “is harvest as viable as it seems on paper, or would it be too difficult to maintain”. “what type of berries are the most popular, weakness mitigating ones, status absorbing ones, healing ones, or stat boosting ones”. “will Pokémon attempt to combat harvest with moves such as knock off or trick? Will certain strategies develop to counter harvest”, and probably many other questions that escape me right now. At this point I am going to make a partial statement and submit that I do not believe drought or regenerator could propose as many questions for the CAP as harvest can. Both abilities have viable users and both have known effects. Drought is undoubtedly a very powerful ability; it managed to single- handedly raise ninetails from the depths of NU into the position of a top tier OU Pokémon. By giving CAP 3 drought, the only questions we pose are how effective would sun be given a stronger weather starter, and how often would CAP 3 use Drought over Dry Skin. In regenerators case I honestly cannot think of any questions it would raise. Its only purpose seems to be to give CAP the ability to recover 33% HP. That is not to suggest that giving CAP 3 regenerator is a bad thing; it would give the Pokémon more versatility. It is just I question if we learn anything from this versatility.

    There is another question of whether or not Harvest fits this particular CAP’s goals; its great that we are learning, but if we set out to learn 2+2, we shouldn’t make it a priority to learn grammer rules. For me to address this point, I will reiterate the purpose of this CAP:

    The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.

    If we are going by this standard, and we intend this secondary ability to help this lackluster typing reach stardom by augmenting the typing, not by overcoming it. Harvest can do this. Sitrus berry stalling with harvest seems like it can be very effective. Since CAP 3 is part poison type, it probably will get toxic and will probably get substitute because everything besides magikarp gets substitute, and this combination makes toxic stalling a viable option. And to address the debacle associated with needing a particular move (toxic) to allow this strategy to work properly, it would be fair to note that when you make a poison fire typing, you don’t expect it to have attacks such as hydro pump and rock tomb. You expect it to have poison and fire moves. To a certain degree, movepool and typing are interdependent, and we should be able to expect certain moves out of the typing. To move back on topic, harvest would also help the CAP 3 by allowing it to use a rest+lum berry set to allow for tankier versions of the Pokémon to repeatedly tank hits from the several attack types it resists, such as fighting, fire and steel. Finally, since harvest works best in sun, CAP 3 may often find its way on sun teams where its fire type attakcs receives a serious boost, which is always useful. These are the ways I can that I believe this ability helps CAP 3’s typing, so, yeah.

    To combat any possible arguments stating that my above reasoning is a stretch at best, I would like to point out that Drought mainly helps this Pokémon in two ways: giving it a very powerful support option and by giving it another stab bonus on fire attacks. The support aspect, in my opinion, would be far too polarizing, as I believe I have stated earlier in this post, and the doubling of fire type stab would probably occur with harvest too, since harvest works best in the sun. the ability regenerator seems to help the typing by mitigating its stealth rock weakness, which is useful, but I prefer the harvest idea because harvest poses questions, which is more in the spirit of CAP.

    My final point is that harvest is very unlikely to be overshadowed or overpower CAP 3’s first ability dry skin. Dry skin offers an immunity to water type attacks which is amazing. The best harvest can do is create a .5 resistance through sunlight and a water resistant berry. Dry skin provides the equivalent of two leftovers while harvest can at best restore HP in a pinch with a sitrus berry. Dry skin creates a fire type Pokémon that is a utility counter against common rain Pokémon while still being a potent rain sweeper. Harvest creates a sun abusing Pokémon that allows CAP to glorify its fire type stab while simultaneously allowing increased stalling ability and future sweeping ability if stat boosting berries are released, at the cost of a valuable immunity. These two abilities are very different and help CAP 3 fill two unique niche roles, but neither one seems to be overpowered, and both help the team in a way that a Haxorus outrage helps a dragonite sweep. Not in the way that a politoed drizzle provides for an entire playstyle.
    So that is my case for Harvest. If you have any criticisms or questions please shout them out. They both are equally important and I will try to respond to the best of my ability without being a bigot. Thank you.

    Sorry for the mountain of text. didn't realize it was so long. if you want a more concise version, say so below. i will post one as soon as i can. The above version is more thorough though (obviously)
  5. kevlarscale

    kevlarscale

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    I would like to sagest sap sipper as an ability for two reasons. One it give it immunity to leech seed and therefore another form of residual damage, making it basically a fool proof counter to all ferrothorns with out bulldozer. Also it give it effective immunity to sleep because it removes spore and sleep powder without preventing Cap 3 from using rest for recovery if it happens to want to.
    I would rather see quick feet because I feel it has a better and more useful niche than sap sipper but this is just a superior alternative to vital spirit/insomnia just like quick feet is a superior variant of limber.
  6. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Yes, it is a +1 Def boost on the switch-in, but that doesn't make anything on our Threat list threaten us less. And I thought I covered quite thoroughly in my post that it does emphasize a quality that is very specific and important to this typing - a Fighting resist. Intimidate means that LO stone Edges even from things north of 105 attack don't ohko us. At the same time, Tyranitar's/Terrakion's STAB Stone Edge still utterly destroys us - we will not be threatening those by switching into them. And if they switch into us, Intimidate is pointless.

    I would argue that a much more easily nullified +1 Def that actually clearly benefits from the typing is much more justified conceptually than giving this a +1 boost to its already strong STAB and turning it into a weathermon.
  7. breh

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    Just a note, but Drought allows CAP3 to almost always (99.41%, ignoring accuracy) 2HKO 4 HP Terrakion with Scarf Timid 252 SpA Drought Fire Blast (for the extremely unlucky or paranoid, SR is necessary). In fact, not a single one of the mons on the threatens list can switch in on its Fire Blast bar Tyranitar, Heatran, and Dragonite (assuming no rocks are up); Terrakion also has a chance if it's Scarfed but can't switch in twice.

    Limber seems like a pretty good noncompetitive ability if we're going to go for one (status immunity is pretty neat as well); Intimidate is quite nice as far as relevant abilities go.
  8. psykokitty

    psykokitty

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    I've been away from my computer for the past couple of days but am glad that I made it back before this thread was closed. I want to throw my support behind two abilities - Trace and Regenerator.

    1. Trace - I was extraordinarily pleased to see this get a shout-out in the OP! I stated my support for this ability during the Primary Ability Discussion, and I recall Deck responded with the reasoning that Trace held the potential to be too good on CAP3. Personal circumstances prevented me from being able to craft a timely response before that thread was closed, but I'd like to give it a go now! I continue to support Trace because I see it as a more creative way for CAP3 to succeed in the ways we want it to (for example, CAP3 could come in and get Swift Swim, Hydration, etc), and I understand Deck's reasoning on how it could become a broken ability - CAP3 with Levitate or Solid Rock would be immune to the weaknesses we specifically chose for it. However, I do not think that the threat of too-good-ness is all that great. Trace is 100% situational. To obtain a favorable ability would require great prediction skills, and those same prediction skills could easily prevent CAP3 from getting a good ability via Trace. Think about it: You are battling in the rain. Your opponent sends out Toxicroak. You switch in CAP3 so that you can Trace its Dry Skin, but you end up with Poison Touch instead! Now, I know you're saying "Nobody uses Poison Touch Toxicroak," and I'd agree with that statement, but I'd add one little word... yet. We could see a plethora of secondary movesets enjoying time in the sun (Sniper Kingdra and Overgrow Venusaur come to mind) to undermine CAP3. Outmaneuvering Trace CAP3 would have to begin at the Team Building stage, requiring a whole new level of knowledge of the metagame and demanding a much higher level of skill out of us than Drought or Storm Drain would. Ultimately, it would make us all that much better at what we do here. In this way, I hope I've demonstrated how Trace could be both a blessing and a curse for CAP3; prediction and situational cues are key.

    2. Regenerator - It's all been said above, and I like it. Not as much as Trace, but I definitely think it's a good option.

    .... just not Drought. Please?
  9. Janenmori

    Janenmori

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    Flash Fire - This gives the CAP a foil immunity to the water one afforded by Dry Skin. It allows for more versatility and weather neutrality while boosting Fire STAB. This ability does not favor weakness/resistance as the CAP already resists Fire. So it isn't as though we are giving Golem Sap Sipper or Storm Drain.

    Rough Skin - It seems to fit the theme already established by Dry Skin. It does not immediately do anything, but passively harms an attacker. Basically, it is just annoying. It also has very limited distribution, and could be used on a tank set, especially considering this CAP's relative bulk.
  10. Pokethan

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    Just a last minute post I thought I should put my ideas out there. I was thinking of giving it Solar Power as an ability because then it boosts both STABs and Fire gets an even bigger boost but in both abilities you still suffer in being in the sun and I think this is a nice check so that the CAP doesn't become something we weren't aiming for. Also since Dry Skin helps in Rain and Solar Power would help in Sun then we have two weathers that the cap could function well in, in theory. I think the ability adds enough without not taking away anything and that it fits well with the concept. Maybe it could be given a shot.
  11. Daenym

    Daenym

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    Solar Power was jokingly suggested a while back. cape's post responded to it, tho. That's just more power than something not meant to be a sweeper should have.
  12. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    If we don't choose Drought as the Secondary Ability we'll be squeezing a lot of hope out of using our precious Fire-type in the Sun at all, which may actually end up detracting from the concept (pick a typing and play to its advantages). The concept is to turn a bad typing into a good typing. In the case of the "bad" Fire-typing, why are we debating an Ability that would a) strengthen all Fire-typed attacks, b) weaken SE Water-type attacks, and c) support team strategies that are almost synonymous with the Fire typing (Sunlight)? People seem afraid of a Sunny playtest ladder, but in a way that's what we asked for in the typing poll. Our stats, too, are tailor-made for Sunlight; the Fire-type's greatest weaknesses are Stealth Rock and being outsped, while its greatest strength is offensive output. Trying to divert from this path won't serve the concept well and might instead just confuse the final product.

    For Sun teams, compounding weaknesses with both Ninetales (required) and Heatran (better in Sun) does a player no good and will most likely push CAP out of the teambuilding process. Folks complaining about how strong the CAP's Specs-boosted Fire Blast will be shouldn't think of it in much greater terms than Heatran's (April 2012: Item | 3.1 | Choice Specs). If shit like Dugtrio can switch into CAP confidently then I think we're playing a losing game here. Sure, CAP sets up the Sun itself without terrible Ninetales's help, but we should be lauding that ability as a strength of the typing, not shunning it. If anything, it'll make Sun (7.0% of teams in April) more viable against Rain (20.2%) and Sand (35.4%).

    It's even a little frustrating to me that at this point Drought CAP is still on the losing end of the weather wars; it has to contend with the fact that Politoed will switch into it with glee (most people seem to be interested in a limited movepool now for whatever reason) and that Tyranitar will only ever be threatened by a Burn (in which case we're talking about a defensive CAP and not Specs), which is not only bad news for CAP but for the Sun team as a whole. Add to that CAP's weaknesses to SR, EQ, and offensive Rain/Sandmons in general and it balances out the immediate power boost pretty thoroughly, imo.

    EDIT @below: Dry Skin CAP (which is the setup you'd use to check bulky Waters) checks everything Politoed can throw around besides Psychic; I am only referring to Drought CAP in my post and yes Politoed can switch into it with little problem at this point (pending movepool) and re-setup Rain, forcing the CAP user onto their back foot, which is okay for balance, I guess. The threat list for any Pokemon will change depending on its role or Ability or moveset or whatever, so I think we should stop holding up this arbitrary threat list from before as though it needed to be strictly enforced or is somehow equal to the concept. The way "makeovers" work is they take take a person's best attributes and emphasize them, which is what we would be doing here with Drought and the Fire-typing.

    Second, the Dugtrio line was meant to explain my belief that CAP's nuking capabilities (which we gave it) should be formidable in Sunlight, and that its checks/counters should either trend more defensive or resort to revenge killing or smart switching, in order to emphasize the strengths of the Fire-typing (again, raw damage output) while still keeping CAP in check. The reason I referenced Heatran's Specs usage is because of how similar the two Pokes are and to argue that the threat of SunSpecs CAP on the metagame may be overblown. I'm not sure what you thought I was saying.
  13. Tetrinity

    Tetrinity

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    The problem with Drought is that it completely messes up the threat list we designated earlier. CAP3 is not supposed to be threatened by Politoed. It's supposed to be the other way around entirely. Politoed shouldn't have any business switching into CAP3 at all; certainly not doing so "with glee".

    Honestly, I know I supported Drought in my earlier post, but this sort of thing is why I spent so long um'ing and aah'ing over the issue. When it comes down to it, I'll probably be voting No Competitive Ability (specifically Suction Cups, it's probably not getting slated here), as Dry Skin fits the bill perfectly well already, Drought commits the twin crimes of being unnecessary and undoing past decisions and quite frankly I feel there's more interesting and relevant directions for us to take this project.

    252 SpA Modest Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0/0 Dugtrio (neutral weather): 136.49% - 161.13%

    Assuming any entry hazards at all, Dugtrio can't switch into CAP3's Fire Blast regardless of the item (and even the Specially Defensive set's Lava Plume does a hefty 68.72% - 81.51%). Don't want to rely on Fire Blast? A super-effective Hidden Power does the trick too with 107.1% - 126.06%. Hell, even a non-STAB Earth Power can OHKO if you slap on some Specs. CAP3 gets revenged killed easily, though, which might be what you meant.

    In any case, a Drought Specs CAP3 would have that STAB sun-boosted Specs Fire Blast (equivalent to 540BP) a hell of a lot more consistently than the equivalent Heatran. CAP3 would have it just by switching in (25% SR damage). Heatran gets it by switching in Ninetales (25% SR damage) and then switching in Heatran (12.5% SR damage), possibly via a pivot (even more SR) to avoiding taking a nasty hit that was aimed at Ninetales. In other words, you're spending at least twice as many turns to get that power, and taking more entry hazard damage in the process. Quite a bit more at stake.
  14. Project_Mars

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    The reason why there's a huge debate over Drought seems to be because it's the only other obvious way to shut off the water works threat, which is a goal we have. The question is, wouldn't this be putting all our eggs in one basket? There should be other ways to make water-types shiver in their boots, so I say we should try to make the second ability try to take it towards a different niche, and try to see how a moveset can be crafted with care towards sending the scurvy water-types to Davy Jone's Locker.

    I still say a status-immune ability would be a nice idea for CAP3 (specifically anti-Sleep or anti-paralyze) and should help it be scary towards set-up strategies, as things it hits stay hit. One cool thing is that it is a little bit bulky, so we could give it a more defensive nature to make it a special wall. Regenerator would help with this, and is probably the best option, although i think Overcoat could work, assuming we are okay with it not taking damage from sand and hail. In terms of offensive roles, Unburden may work, however assuming it could live through most earthquakes/stone edges after the appropriate berry then it might be a bit too strong.

    Cloud Nine would be interesting to run too, as its temporary weather shut-down would help a little with taking on rain teams, and allow it to roast Scizor and Ferrothorn with no power drop while on said team. Sure it does nothing for it in the sun, but who cares? The focus is on the typing, not weather. This would also help it against common Sun team sweepers, none of which are supposed to be its main counters anyways.

    Finally on the subject of Non-Competitive Abilities that i would like to see, they are: Illuminate (A fire burning brightly), Liquid Ooze (is it non-competitive? it would prevent sub-seeding tricks), Friend Guard (I like 2v2s), and Damp (Get it? Because it's used on rain teams?) depending on which art we pick.
  15. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

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    Well I just want to make an argument for filter/solid rock since it has barely been mentioned in this thread and but has some potential to be a very helpful ability in terms of usefulness and especially in regards to the concept.

    Major Advantages
    First of all cap3 has 4 common weaknesses and this ability would give it partial immunity to all of them, giving cap3 more options to switch in. I think having more options is a key point as our first ability and drought limit the options for which cap3 can be used effectively. (not saying this is necessarily a bad thing or that I don't support either of them, just that this could offer a better look into how successful cap3 really is). With solid rock or filter we can see how effective cap3 is without making it heavily reliant on weather but still giving it the ability to come in on more attacks and to be able to take more hits. I think that will truly allow us to see how poor the typing is (it still has the same weaknesses just not as profound) by comparing it to dry skin which will definitively answer the question asked from the concept which is "what do we need to make a bad typing good?" basically my argument is that this ability won't make cap3 useless by giving it partial immunities/ more team options, but it still shows us how helpful a great ability like dry skin really is to a poor typing.
  16. Pokethan

    Pokethan

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    Thank you for pointing that out and I see why that would be a ridiculous ability for this CAP to have. Another thing I was thinking of would be Storm Drain if we want Water Types "shivering in fear" because people won't be able to abuse Scald because it could possibly turn it into a Sp.Atk boost for the CAP. I don't know if this has been discussed already so let me know if I have been mistaken with mentioning this ability.
  17. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
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    We wouldn't be undoing anything by picking Drought. Again, the only thing decided in the first ability polls was that Dry Skin should be one of the abilities. Only one could win that poll, and the fact that both were in the poll doesn't mean that having both abilities is somehow against the wishes of the populace (which the second ability polls would decide). If Deck Knight had slated anything else in Ability 1, I wonder if people would make this same protest when it got brought up again.

    I don't think that anyone's been saying that Dry Skin WILL be more popular/usable than Drought. The only thing I meant with the Tomohawk analogy was that the lesser-viewed ability COULD be more popular/usable than the greater-viewed ability. It does annoy me, though, that people have been insisting (and implying) that Drought WILL be more usable than Dry Skin. I'll admit, the playtest will be skewed by bandwagons every which way, and Drought will probably exacerbate this. However, again, I do not believe that the first ability poll somehow "proved" that we wanted Dry Skin to be the only direction to take CAP 3. The science experiment argument could be applied the same way to justify having only one competitive ability on any other CAP project.

    ---

    Finally, I'm going to address the power argument, because it is, to my knowledge, the only major objective matter left to discuss about Drought. Let's look at our intended threat list:

    Tyranitar
    Terrakion
    Landorus
    Dugtrio
    Gliscor
    Offensive Heatran
    CAP 3
    Dragonite
    Gastrodon (wasn't in the original threat list but it's fairly important in this discussion)

    These threats (other than Dragonite) can be divided into two groups: threats that do not resist Fire, and threats that do resist Fire but are weak to one or more of Grass, Ground, and Fighting. Tyranitar and Terrakion are weak against ALL of Grass/Ground/Fighting. I'm going to make the very safe assumption that CAP 3 will have Hidden Power and likely use it.

    At the level of power we're talking about with CAP 3, resisting Fire is going to be crucial to switching into it, regardless of whether it's in sun or out of sun (unless it's in rain, I suppose). This is readily seen with offensive Heatran in real OU. So the Fire-neutral threats are already pretty hopeless for actually countering CAP 3 (notice how they're ALL faster, though). This means we are looking at the other group - Tyranitar, Terrakion, offensive Heatran, opposing CAP 3, Dragonite, and Gastrodon - to hope to "counter" CAP 3.

    Consider how powerful Fire Blast is to begin with, in comparison to Hidden Power. A resisted Fire Blast in neutral weather is 9/7 as powerful as a neutral Hidden Power. A resisted Fire Blast in sun is 27/28 as powerful as a super effective Hidden Power. Ouch. But wait! Doesn't that mean Terrakion is going to be screwed over just the same by Hidden Power Grass/Fighting/Ground? Isn't Tyranitar doubly weak against Fighting, Heatran doubly weak against Ground, Gastrodon doubly weak against Grass? Hell, maybe I'll be a bit crazy and run Ice to hit Dragonite. We shouldn't really be talking about raw power anymore, when we're boosting the main STAB and nothing else, since the Fire resistances are hit the same way by the best attack to use against them either way.

    The real sticking point is the need to choose to hit CAP 3's checks. FlareBlitz has understood this already (which is to be expected, since he did submit an even stronger stat spread) and made his case. Drought may remove the need to choose to hit specific Fire resistances with Hidden Power, when they are hit about as hard by a resisted Fire Blast (though this doesn't apply to Heatran/Tyranitar/Gastrodon). This could be viewed as a bad thing, and I'll accept that it will be a deal-breaker to some people. At any rate, Drought shouldn't just be viewed as a power boost when it only boosts the main STAB.
  18. SunnyE

    SunnyE

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    My idea of Unaware hasn't been very addressed but I'd like to give some sort of reasoning as to why it would be a good Idea.
    In OU we have a LOT of pokemon that like to set up, and despite our massive special attack, CAP3 has a very clear bias to be defensive and not hold much investment offensive-wise, which might make pokemon like Dragonite and other set-upers the idea of doing so against CAP3, but Unaware makes that useless. Other than that, CAP3 can come in against pokemon that have already Set Up and perhaps stop a sweep.
  19. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

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    I think Unaware is kind of useless, unless CaP3 is built like a TechniTop with priority in every form. Given it's base 76 speed, this thing isn't going to be able to deal with set up users as a reliable counter even with Unaware, as it can't break them. You'd need priority to be able to hit back, as most set-up users can still hit hard on zero boosts (Terrakion being a premier wall breaker even without its double dancing set). In that case, why would you run CaP3 over, say, Infernape, who has priority Mach Punch and a much better Fighting STAB (which hits Heatran/Terrakion for SE and Dragonite for neutral)?

    I'd like to suggest a slightly more out-there ability, and that is Download. Yes, I do realise that art-wise this makes little sense, but flavour aside, I see a lot of people in this thread complaint about Drought being able to provide a power boost AND weather, while Deck Knight said he didn't want Adaptability because it's permanent (and boosts both STABS instead of just fire). So why no Download? It provides a power boost without getting weather in play, and it's not permanent (though to compensate it provides a better boost than Adaptability does). It also means we have to be very strategic with CaP3, as we can't just switch in carelessly. It keeps Heatran as a counter (most run Special Defense so you'd end up with an Attack boost from Download, which is useless with CaP3's base attack stat), Dragonite isn't being beaten thanks to Multiscale and its ability to go mixed and even against physically defensive Gliscor (special attack boost from Download), neither STAB is going to do much, while Hidden Power would be a KO regardless of whether it had Download or not. In essence, Download is a compromise between Drought and Adaptability, and while art-wise it may be difficult, competitively it keeps our threat list relatively the same, while giving CaP3 the chance to shine on its own, instead of being reliant on rain-teams to find a niche for itself.
  20. SunnyE

    SunnyE

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    Mach Punch is not very effective on Dragonite, and doesn't kill Heatran or Terrakion. Who said anything about speed being needed? And most boosters need the set up to be able to do something, Terrakion isn't that common as a set up mon, he runs more Scarf/Band, and is NOT the kind of mon we wan't to counter in any way. Pokemon like Volcarona, which NEEDS his Quiver Dance to be worth using would be completely destroyed even running HP Rock (idk about Ground) or Hurricane if stuck on his normal stats, and CAP3 can fight back with a normal effective Fire Blast that most likely will K.O. since Unaware makes defense boosts useless as well.
  21. Tetrinity

    Tetrinity

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    Hmm. Download is actually rather intriguing, and I certainly like that suggestion more than either Drought or Adaptability. It is, as you say, a good middle ground between the two and doesn't smash apart the threats list like Drought does. So I'll go ahead and post my support for Download.

    In terms of art, I know it's just flavour issues, but it could always be explained as CAP3 preying on the foe's weak spots. Certainly fits in well with plenty of the art I've seen.
  22. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Question: Most people who have expressed support for Limber/Vital Spirit support the idea of a 3rd status immunity regardless of whether it is sleep or paralysis. Therefore, if it makes it to the vote, is it really fair to list Vital Spirit/Limber separately since that will, inevitably, split votes unncessarily? I think it'd make more sense to run Vital Spirit/Limber/Insomnia as one entry and then, if it wins, we can decide immediately afterwards which of the 3 abilities is actually our CAP's "ability 2"

    Normally I wouldn't support bundling, but I feel that, with this vote, we are voting on the concept, and the direction that we want to take the CAP with this secondary ability, and all three of these abilities presen an ABSOLUTELY unified direction, theme and concept.

    It may be an unnecessary concern of mine, but I'd hate to see the Limber/Vital Spirit ability concept lose just because its supporters couldn't agree on wheteher to make the CAP immune to paralysis or sleep.


    Now to actually provide some support for these ablities:
    So far, all we have done with Dry Skin is to cover up one of its glaring weaknesses, but we haven't actually made its unique typing "a selling point". Since Fire/Poison creates aunique immunity to both Burn and Toxic/Poison (currently only displayed by heatran) it would be folly not to take advantage of that.
    Limber or Vital Spirit/Insomnia allows our CAP to be completely immune to THREE different status effects allowing it to switch in with virtual impunity against any "disabling" type pokemon.

    In a similar vein, Arena Trap/Shadow Tag also makes use of our special typing: walls often rely on Wil O'Wisp and/or Toxic to whittle down opposing pokemon's HP, but our CAP is completely immune to BOTH of those statuses, and Arena Trap/Shadow Tag ensure that the opposing wall cannot switch out, making our CAP a situational wall counter... especially on Blissey sets which use flamethrower, or Dusknoir sets which use fire punch and ice punch, Our CAP would resist its foe's primary damage ability AND would resist the status effects which the walls generally use to damage their foes, while, likely, being able to inflict some of its own.
  23. Camisado

    Camisado

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    I'm not going to create an argument because, to be quite honest, I'm not informed enough on the topic to give one.

    However, it may be worth considering Creating a downgraded ability similar to Drought that only stays active while Cap3 is on the field, or has a turn cap on it. This may be a way of nullifying some of the cons of Drought, while still providing the benefits.

    To have Drought straight up, simply proves that you can make an average at best Pokemon, and make it OU by giving it one kickass aspect (Which Ninetails and Politoad clearly proved when comparing Gen IV usage to Gen V
  24. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
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    I would just like to post that shadow tag at least, and probably Arena trap too, runs a very large risk of being overpowered. Chandelure with ST absolutely shreds dw ou stall, and with toxic immunity and lack of a pursuit weakness, CAP 3 would likely be even better at trapping and killing. If we were going to go with shadow tag we would have needed much less raw power IMO.
  25. Quilph

    Quilph

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    As far as I'm concerned, Dry Skin has done everything we could ask for concerning the concept, and for that reason I will push for No Secondary Ability at all. The main reason I feel this way is because everyone here instantly assumes that we are obligated--nay, required--to give every single CAP as many abilities as possible, when this is entirely not the case. There are plenty of Pokemon that don't have a secondary ability. When did it become standard procedure to forget this? I suppose I would be willing to give it a DW ability of some sort, but that's a discussion for another day. For now, I'd at least like to have the option of selecting no ability at all.
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