1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Oct 27, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,902
    So, I want to start out the same way nyttyn did here:

    94 Speed.

    Yes that is right, "only" 94 speed. Only faster than nearly 55% of OU, and 100% of unboosted OU after a very easily obtainable boost. The only "flaw" with this speed is that there exist Pokemon that are faster. That is not a flaw, that is just a fact. Yes, it can be a problem as scarfers can revenge us even after a boost. But really, is that a actually a problem? We decided we wanted no counters, yes, but to think that having no one revenge kill us is necessary is removing checks as well. We do not want that and we do not need that. The only way that this would even be a problem at all though is if we pigeonhole ourselves into the "fast offensive sweeper" role. We have to remember that our stats do not force any such thing. Sure, our typing is not conducive to defensive sets, but that does not mean we lack any bulk or that we are forced to run 0/0/0 in our defenses.

    Lets look at the actual stat. Any set counting on a boost has little reason to ever fully invest in speed. With 160 EVs and a neutral nature, you outspeed the entire unboosted metagame at +1. With Timid and 196 EVs, you outspeed Choice Scarf Rotom at +1, the fastest common scarfer below you. And in the very likely case that you can achieve 2 speed boosts, only 156 EVs and a neutral nature are needed to beat everyone up to Choice Scarf Latias, the fastest scarfer that anyone will ever likely run. All of these leave many EVs left over to invest in Aurumoths bulk. And let us remember that while many Quiver Dance supporters seem to claim that our bulk is sub-par and not worth anything, in actuality, we have better physical bulk than Gliscor, and our special bulk, while certainly not amazing by any means, is by no means worthless. And, after a boost from Quiver Dance, that mediocre special defence is now on par with its amazing physical bulk, and we can invest some in bulk without sacrificing our boosted speed tier.

    As you can see from all of the above, running Quiver Dance is an incredibly safe option. Even among the common scarfers who can outspeed you at +1, who can actually KO you? Some of them? Sure. However, not as many as you might first think. Common Scarf Genesect for example has a 0% chance to OHKO you with +1 SpD unless it carries Bug Buzz, killing its own coverage. Sending in Gene is not a way to stop a sweep, it is a way to guarantee that the opponent can set up another boost if they so choose.

    However, safeness is only relative. We need to compare this to other sets. Now, simply put, any non QD set will not be boosting SpD, so Gene and other special scarfers can revenge. As such, Quiver Dance is strictly superior to other boosting moves in that way. Compared to other set up moves, the while Quiver Dance does not provide the power of something like Tail Glow, by not having a speed boost, the ability to actually use that boost is greatly diminished. Now, I am not saying this is a bad thing. In fact, I think the power of a Tail Glow set is more than enough for our purposes. However, in comparison to Quiver Dance, the QD set is once again strictly superior. It can take out more threats, and is harder to beat. There is very little reason to use Tail Glow when Quiver Dance is around. But what about Physical sets? We have more Attack than SpA, so won't those have use too? If there is anything that we should have learned from Pokemon like Lucario and our first CAP, Syclant, it is that a higher stat does not mean it will get used. Sure, a powerful STAB megahorn is very nice, but other than increased ability to beat Tyranitar in one hit, what does it really give you? Nothing. You have less accurate, less powerful secondary STAB, and fewer useful coverage options. Quiver Dance sets provide more power, more reliability, more bulk and more versatility than any physical set could possibly provide. Even Dragon Dance pales in comparison when you consider the all the benefits that special attacking provide it. Once again, Quiver Dance is strictly superior.

    Now I kept using those same words over and over again for a reason. "Strictly Superior". One of the conditions you had asked me to prove regarding Quiver Dance is that is would result in "the emergence of a standard, reliable set". No matter what angle you look at it, Quiver Dance would do this. Now I'm not saying that there will be 4 moves and 1 EV spread every Aurumoth would run. Indeed, the plethora of coverage options we have means that there could be many possible moves you could throw in there. However, the overall structure of every good set would be the same. And what is worse, these sets have very little that they would even teach us about risk.

    Why? Volcarona exists. When you think of risky Pokemon in OU, Volcarona is one of the first that comes to mind. A awful typing offensively and defensively with mediocre at best coverage, made up for by great offenses and Quiver Dance. With Quiver Dance, Aurumoth would just be a less risky Volcarona at best. At worst, it would be strictly outclassed. Either way, it is not showing us anything we don't know. We are less risky that Volcarona due to our better offensive and defensive typing, better bulk on the side that is not being boosted, and significantly better coverage movepool. At the same time, we are both weaker and slower, providing us with less reward. For a concept that is all about risk, it seems odd that we would strive to make a Pokemon whose best possible set could only ever be seen as a less risky version of something we already know all about.

    Now, the last thing I want to address here is simply the overall reliability of using Quiver Dance. Some QD supporters have stated how Quiver Dance is by no means a guarantee, and that it will be a chore to get it up. However, lets look at this realistically: over 50% of OU is slower than you, and plenty of those Pokemon cannot do to much to you. In addition, 2 of our three abilities make setting up boosts a breeze. With Weak Armor, the majority of the pokemon you would switch into provide you with a boost. Sure, they could stay in and attack you, but in doing so they risk being outsped and KOd. Boosting on switches is a key part of Pokemon. All boosters do it. This is not some new uncharted territory. This is something OU pokemon do every day. On the other hand, we also have Illusion. And speaking of forcing switching, this ability is the king of that. Not only can it force one, but when that first one turns out bad, it has the potential to force two. Yes, it is not a something you can pull of every time, but it is not actually difficult. If my experiences with Zoroark have taught me anything, it is that most people are bad at using Illusion. However for those who know how to use it well, there is no ability more powerful or more versatile. In the hands of a skilled player, grabbing a boost with Illusion requires no effort at all. And if that last sentence tells you anything it is that using Illusion to grab boost is not a risky task. Indeed, it is overwhelmingly safe. Having a safe method to grab a risky boost such as tail glow could be an interesting concept and one that itself could work well in OU, but grabbing a Quiver Dance would always be the strictly superior option, and doing that does not show risk in any way whatsoever.

    So, when you look at the big picture, what do you get? With Quiver Dance, you get an incredibly safe way to grab incredibly safe boosts on a set which strictly outclasses all other sets, resulting in a Pokemon that is a safer version of one that already exists. You asked me to prove how Quiver Dance goes against the concept. This is how. It is plain as day. There is nothing that would be risky about an Aurumoth with Quiver Dance. The only other thing it has the potential to be other than safe is outclassed at its best set. Nothing that can come of it would be positive. Nothing that can come of it will help the concept. And nothing that can come of it is needed for Aurumoth to be viable.
  2. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,286
    Well that was kind of a predictable response wasn't it

    Anyway. Easy bits first (or, not easy, but say, less controversial). I am going to move Substitute from Required to Allowed. Hopefully this will satisfy everybody. On the one hand, if you want it on your movepool, you can have it. If you don't want it, you don't have to include it. I could honestly go either way on this move and to be perfectly honest I am so little concerned by its relative importance that, really, I'm prepared to put this up to the discretion of the movepool creators, and naturally, the taste of the masses.

    Second... Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance. Largely I'm placing these two together because, well, they're really quite representative of the same thing. The Metagame versus the Concept. This is something that has cropped up in some form or another in every CAP, and here, I find it hard to arbitrate between them, as I'm sure you all know. Both sides make excellent points... too many excellent points. I am not even convinced any more that they defy the concept, nor that they are remotely necessary to grant Aurumoth a niche in OU. My nature on this point has always been to favour the concept, wholeheartedly. And yet, such an approach has in the past led to Kitsunoh and Krilowatt as often as it has led to Fidgit or Necturna. Is conservatism correct in this instance? Honestly... I don't know. And I'm prepared to admit that I don't know.

    So all I can do is to fall back on the old British tradition of "fair play, old bean". I have two decisions I could make. One of these decisions will lead to half of the people in this thread being able to make the movepools they want to. The other will lead to all of the people in this thread being able to make the movepools they want to. It's not scientific or rigorous, but then, I do not want to unfairly limit movepool diversity by making a decision that I myself am not sure of. Ergo... I will Allow Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance.

    Kindly don't see this as a slight or any other such unfortunate gesture, as it is little more than pragmatism on my part. Please rest assured that I will do my utmost to ensure that only those movepools that have a cohesive, competitive vision for this CAP that correlates to my own - a Pokemon that can sweep, that can support, that can act as a bulky attacker, each with its own modicum of risk attached, and crucially, that can run each of these sets with equal viability - will be selected for the final poll. I realise the risk I myself am taking with this decision and hope that the trust I place in the CAP Community to shatter existing preconceptions is not groundless.

    There is no reason to discuss any of the above moves any further. I would be lying if I said I was happy with this state of affairs, but again I would be lying if I thought that any other decision would result in a better one - and I do not wish to trust to the roulette of the bold vote. If said vote would result in a difference in this decision, well, we shall see it played out between final, fully cohesive movepools, rather than the vague ideas we have at present. That's my final word on the matter and I would encourage you all not to grumble. There's little good it will do.

    Next on the agenda:

    The Waste of Time

    Trick / Switcheroo
    Circle Throw
    Dragon Tail
    Roar / Whirlwind
    Gravity
    Taunt
    Encore
    Block / Mean Look / Spider Web
    Perish Song
    Magic Coat
    Endeavour
    Destiny Bond
    Rapid Spin
    Knock Off
    Haze

    --------------

    So I stuck all of these in one big pile and to be perfectly honest I don't have any real opinion on most of them. They're all rank outsiders as far as VGMs go, and unlikely to be anything more than movepool filler - so I may well find myself disallowing more than a few if there is no legitimate reason to have them.

    And if you think of any other moves... well, I don't particularly want to hear about it, but if you think it will generate good discussion then feel free to chuck it into the ring.

    Anyway... discuss.
  3. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    298
    Taunt and Destiny Bond both come to mind as things that still provide thought.

    Taunt requires good prediction and will not always get use, but if you land it on an opponent expecting to be able to set up safely, you gain a great deal of momentum with an unexpected Taunt that could potentially turn the tide of the entire battle around. High risk--you could end up losing a harsh amount of momentum, high reward--you can single handedly shut down the Forretress, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, etc. expecting to shrug off hits and set up. I'd say to allow Taunt.

    Destiny Bond is an excellent contrast to Taunt. Note the competitive description of Destiny Bond on the on-site analysis.
    It specifically makes it a point that Destiny Bond is hard to use, but pays off well if used correctly. It has good duality with Illusion and Weak Armor, too. The former benefits from being able to potentially kill the opponent in a completely overwhelming surprise early-game, while the latter can deal with revenge killers expecting to 2HKO you after the defense drop. It won't see use on every set, but regardless it can definitely lead to some very interesting options. Allow Destiny Bond.
  4. srk1214

    srk1214 You are people yes ou no?
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,056
    The only things on this list I find particularly important are as follows:

    Allow Trick, Taunt, and Encore
    Moves that help eliminate counters/checks and enable easier set up opportunities.

    Disallow Rapid Spin
    One of the least applicable moves in the game to the concept.
  5. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,286
    So the whole "Smogon being down" thing was a bit annoying but hey we're all here now

    So anyway, it seems that due to the above, not everyone has had a chance to say their little piece, so I'll give this thread a crisp 24 hour warning to give people a bit of time to gather and post their thoughts, after which we'll move on to the next step... unless of course something of interest comes up, in which case I'll grant an extension.

    I'll give an opinion or judgement on what's up there once this thread has a chance to run for a bit. Cheers.
  6. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    774
    That's a shame about Quiver Dance being allowed but I totally understanding where you're coming from bmb.

    Out of the remaining moves I feel like we really should allow Magic Coat. It is best when it comes as a complete surprise, and on a lead - a situation which Illusion Aurumoth can easily bring about. It's also useless if the opponent doesn't use the move you expect them to, making it pretty risky.

    Destiny Bond, Taunt and Trick also work well with Illusion and the former two are pretty risky to use. Destiny Bond could also be used on Weak Armour Aurumoth to screw over faster pokes due to its mechanics of carrying over to the next turn.
  7. Verminator

    Verminator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    96
    Well, it looks like there was some confusion with my post, it seems like I was posting around when the server started to go wonky and I posted twice. I deleted the second and it seems like the first was deleted by a mod at the same time. Oops. Anyways, I ran by these options one by one so here I go again.

    Trick / Switcheroo. Great for catching a wall on the switch and ruining it. Aurumoth seems like it might make a fairly decent choice user, and this should enhance that. Not sure if its going to be a great option, but still, allow.

    Circle Throw / Dragon Tail seems kind of shit on a poke with a bad defensive typing. However, it could let you grab free turns to set up by shuffling out someone's counter to something you can set up on. I say disallow, but I don't feel that strongly about it and I certainly don't foresee anybody seriously using it if it were allowed.

    Roar / Whirlwind seems more or less the same as above to me.

    Gravity seems really pointless on a no-guard poke with no ground STAB. You could use it as a supporting move for teammates, but there are better users of the move in OU. Allow it I guess but I don't see the point.

    I say allow Taunt. Aurumoth's good mixed attacking stats and passable speed ought to allow it to function as a nice core-killer or stallbreaker, and allowing Taunt ought to allow it to fulfil that role nicely. Stopping your opponent laying hazards or setting up is a nice reward, but it carries the risk of allowing your opponent to switch to a scarfer and kill you. Plus, this would allow Auru to function as a nice countermeasure to Deo-D, making it a little more viable in OU.

    However, I think Encore shouldn't be allowed. You can use this to easily buy yourself free turns and set up easily, and with QD on the table that's potentially really dangerous. I dunno, this just seems like the definition of a safe move to me, though again, you do risk your opponent just switching out to their scarfed revenge killer.

    I guess Block / Mean Look / Spider Web is kind of similar, and I guess trapping a defensive poke that can't really hurt you and then setting up QD / DD X6 on them would be pretty beastly, but I'm going to say allow just because it seems kind of gimmicky and hard to pull off.

    Perish Song to me seems the kind of move that doesn't really go against the concept but doesn't really work with it either. I guess we could allow it, but Aurumoth doesn't seem a particularly good user of it. I'm struggling to think of a good use for this in OU. Allow, even though it doesn't seem that good.

    I'd say Allow Magic Coat for the same reasons that I'm for allowing Taunt. Reward of bounced hazards or status, potential risk of a wasted turn.

    We allowed priority attacks if I remember rightly. So I say allow Endeavor. To me, nothing screams Risk / Reward better than a gimmicky FEAR set with a focus sash, endeavor and extremespeed. Luring the pokes that are supposed to beat you, like scarfed Terrakion, and taking them out of the picture seems like a barrel of fun to me.

    Allow Destiny Bond too while we're at it. Using DB forces your opponent into a tough decision, ie; do I kill this thing but also sacrifice my poke, or do I run the risk of letting it set up all over me? I guess this might be seen as kind of "safe", but when you consider Auru's meh speed and the fact that it still doesn't protect you from death I don't think it is, at least not to a harmful degree.

    A Rapid Spinner weak to SR and every other hazard with a bad defensive type? Seems reeeeeally appealing. Still, I guess you could allow it as you can bluff an offensive set to force a switch and grab a free spin, which could be a nice reward depending on what the rest of your team looks like, and I guess Starmie and Excadrill show that offensive spinners aren't necessarily a bad idea, but tbh I think Auru would be happier setting up or firing off a strong attack with that free turn.

    I kind of like the idea of Knock Off. Auru's arch-nemesis is faster scarfers, right? Knocking off that scarf could really throw a spanner in the works for your opponent, although I'm not sure if your opponent would switch directly into you instead of opting for a free switch and a revenge kill. Still, allow it.

    Haze seemed really pointless to me at first. Auru's not a defensive poke, and I just couldn't think of a good use for this, as most of the pokes you'd want to clear stat boosts on are ones you can probably defeat anyway with the right move (Conk, Keldeo, Reuniclus, Breloom) or pokes that are apt to just kill you outright if they grab any boosts at all. (Volcarona, Terrakion, Gyarados, Mence) However, I can see this being useful on an Illusion set. You could bring it in disguised as another poke and trick your opponent into using an ineffective attack so you can wipe their boosts and stop the sweep. Risky, as if your opponent doesn't buy your clever ruse then you're up shit creek, but rewarding if you can pull it off. Allow it.

    Looking over my post, I realise I've said Allow to all but one or two, but I think that a wide array of options is important for Aurumoth to succeed. I doubt any of these will see that much use on Aurumoth's flagship sets, whatever those turn out to be, but they can potentially be rewarding for people who think outside the box, especially on Illusion sets.
  8. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    Let's see... start with the obvious. Gravity is completely useless on Aurumoth, it can just run No Guard and get another coverage attack. You can allow it, but no one will use it.
    The rest of these I don't have a problem with, although the only really good ones that I see are Trick and Taunt. These also encourage a Tail Glow/Swords Dance wallbreaking set over the QD set that everyone seems to be worried about. Come in, cripple a wall, boost up and kill it.
    Magic Coat looks good if you can pull it off, but really dangerous, just what Aurumoth is about. I personally like Mean Look, since you could accidentally trap the wrong pokemon and get forced out (taking more SR), but it could also be seen as too "safe". I'm on the fence about it, I guess.
    Oh, and Rapid Spin... OK, why not. I think that there are too few spinners out there anyway, and who knows, it could be interesting.
  9. nyttyn

    nyttyn Congratulation
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    924
    Trick / Switcheroo
    Sure, if Aurumoth has the balls to use a choice set then I see no issue with giving it trick.

    Circle Throw
    Dragon Tail


    No, kind of distracts from the concept, Aurumoth doesn't really have the bulk, and overall they're just really bad moves on Aurumoth.

    Roar / Whirlwind

    See above

    Gravity
    I could see some interesting uses for this move, but No Guard Aurumoth still exists, and Gravity as a whole is kind of a bad playstyle. Disallow, if only because it'd only add negatively to this CAP

    Taunt
    Encore

    A lot of risk, but very high reward (Especially if you encore, say, a Dragon Dance. Also, tons of pokemon are TAUNT WEAK). Encore is a far worse move in B/W, but it's still a good one, so I'd say Allow both of them.

    Block / Mean Look / Spider Web


    Sure. Trapping's pretty good in B/W, and I see no reason why not to allow these moves.

    Perish Song

    No, Aurumoth doesn't really have the bulk or speed to get a perish song off, it has better things to do with its time, and honestly Perish Song is a last resort at best. Tentative disallow, might have interesting perish trapping applications.

    Magic Coat / Counter
    Yes. Counter Coat illusion sets could work very well with illusion moth.

    Endeavour
    Endeavor Extremespeed illusion lead, anyone? Allow, if only because lol suicide mons are fun.

    Destiny Bond
    Sure. Can get a surprise KO but you completely reveal your hand if you don't get the KO that turn.

    Rapid Spin
    God no. Not everything in the game needs rapid spin, and Aurumoth will never be even a decent spinner with it being SR weak, vulnerable to every other hazard, status, and passive source of damage in the game. Disallow, it only distracts from the concept.

    Knock Off
    No. Knock off only works on bulky mons who can get free turns - Aurumoth would much rather set up a screen or dance or fuck even attack.

    Haze

    When the hell will you have the time to get a haze off? Disallow. Haze isn't even a good move.
  10. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    565
    switcheroo is not a signature move.
  11. nyttyn

    nyttyn Congratulation
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    924
    Ah, my bad. Edited that out.

    Anyways, why not Flame Charge? Dealing a decent chunk of damage as well as boosting your speed by a good chunk at the same time could have utility on several sets, much like how Flame Charge Genesect works. It'd be worth a shot, at least.
  12. Legend13

    Legend13

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    Allow Trick
    This is actually a pretty good move; if Aurumoth were to trick correctly, the target would be crippled, and Aurumoth would get something okay like leftovers or life orb. Trick incorrectly, and Aurumoth could be left with the wrong choice item (band for special set), or even worse, so there is a nice risk vs. reward.
    Disallow Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, Roar, and Whirlwind
    A negative priority on a frail pokemon? NO.
    Disallow Gravity
    Since Aurumoth doesn't have Ground STAB, this is pretty pointless.
    Allow Taunt
    Great move; shuts down utility pokemon and sweepers requiring more than one setup. Or Aurumoth gets KO'd by the attack the target was going to use anyway.
    Allow Encore
    Can easily shut down sweepers attempting to setup alongside Aurumoth, or once again, can just KO Aurumoth if mispredicted.
    Not Sure About Block, Mean Look, Or Spider Web
    Disallow Perish Song
    Perish song is only used by pokemon who don't have a phazing move as an alternative, so this is pointless on Aurumoth, as with phazing.
    Allow Magic Coat
    This is a perfect move for the concept; can be used to great effect against non-damaging moves, and useless for everything else. One prediction seperates the two.
    Allow Endeavor
    Why Not? It's not OP, nor is it Pointless. It's risky in it's own way, so there is no reason this should be disallowed.
    Allow Destiny Bond
    If used correctly, gets Aurumoth one final KO. If not, too bad.
    Disallow Rapid Spin
    A spinner Vulnerable to every hazard in the game, not even bulky enough to survive long enough to spin, and weak to spinblockers? No, just no.
    Allow Knock Off
    Should be allowed for the some reasons as Trick.
    Disallow Haze
    Aurumoth has much better things to do, and doesn't benefit from Haze (if it can use it in time).
  13. Scoopapa

    Scoopapa
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    972
    I say allow Rapid Spin. As many people have pointed out, Rapid Spin isn't all that appealing on a pokemon who is SR weak, has low SpD, and is vulnerable to all Spikes. That said, Rapid Spin is very appealing on a pokemon with Illusion, because you aren't inviting the opponent to switch in a Spin Blocker against you. This may seem silly considering that something like Starmie can simply kill spinblockers instead, but consider this: often, your opponent can switch in their Ghost, block the spin, and then revenge kill your Starmie when their Ghost falls. In the fast-paced BW2 metagame, this can amount to a failure to spin altogether. Forcing an incorrect switch and getting your spin immediately will in many cases be a better outcome.

    Thus, even though Illusion Aurumoth has its fair share of weaknesses as a spinner, I think the combo has a lot of potential if used right and would fit the concept extremely well. Finding the right pokemon to masquerade as will be tough, but that (among the other weaknesses), balanced by the potential to spin despite the presence of a spinblocker and without losing momentum; all makes it exactly a high-risk high-reward dynamic.
  14. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,523
    Allow Circle Throw / Dragon Tail

    Aurumoth is not "frail" at all, it's actually pretty bulky, and has resistances to Fighting (4x), Grass, Ground, and Psychic. It has 110 / 99 / 60 Defenses. These are superior to Mamoswine on the whole and better than Conkeldurr (105 / 95) physically. In addition Dragon Tail would allow it to bluff for several Pokemon n conjunction with Dragon Dance.

    Whirlwind / Roar are similarly useful, and Illusion allows us to use the turn to stack up damage.

    Anyone arguing Aurumoth is frail is nuts, it's objectively not true.
  15. Verminator

    Verminator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    96
    Has Snatch been considered? It's not a very common move, but the gist is is that it's a priority move that can steal enemy boosting moves as well as certain status moves that affect the opponent's side of the field, like Substitute, Screens, Recovery moves etc. etc, although it doesn't work on entry hazards and status moves like T-Wave or Toxic, ie; the stuff that Magic Coat would effect. You essentially cancel the opponent's move and use it yourself. It sounds trollish as fuck on paper, and has the potential to be amazing for illusion sets. Hard to pull off, and heavy risk, but the priiiiiize...
  16. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,902
    Ok, so I don't really have much thoughts on the rest of the moves out there. I am not a fan of Encore, Taunt or Rapid Spin, but, along with all the rest of the moves up there, I don't really think any of them will make or break this CAP.

    Really, the main reason I am posting is because while looking for flavor moves I came across some VGMs that have not been brought up yet. While, as with the moves already being discussed, I don't think any of them will matter all that much either way, I just wanted to bring them up so movepool makers would know if they can be included or not. Specifically the moves I was looking at are Amnesia, Barrier/Iron Defense/Acid Armor, Confuse Ray, Refresh and Trick Room.

    Trick Room is kinda odd and while we can't really use it all that well, I am not sure if it would be good for this concept. Refresh is another one I am not completely sure of, but I don't think it would make a huge impact on Aurumoth either way. As for the other ones, they all seem fine to me. But either way, I just wanted to bring them up.
  17. Rediamond

    Rediamond

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    3,168
    Trick / Switcheroo: The only real use these moves have is on TrickScarf sets, which are all about prediction and calculated risk: lose the scarf and switch moves, or retain the speed? It fits the concept decently. Allow.

    Circle Throw / Dragon Tail / Roar / Whirlwind: I think people are forgetting a crucial aspect of the use of these with Illusion: you run the risk of whirlwinding in either a counter or something it can set up on. While these don't explore risk to exactly the same degree as a TrickScarf set, it does help explore another subarea of the concept. Allow.

    Gravity: Honestly has no relevant use bar making No Guard less useful. Disallow.

    Taunt: As others have noted, the relation this has with setup sweepers is quite interesting. I would be very much interested in exploring this, as it also makes it easier to get past a few remaining defensive walls that CaP4 could otherwise struggle against. Allow.

    Encore: Same boat as Taunt. Allow.

    Block / Mean Look / Spider Web: These distract from the concept and honestly don't do much in terms of risk, bar making Illusion sets that much better. Disallow, as it skews the ability relations.

    Perish Song: Bar making it easier to stop slower sweepers that can somehow destroy your team... which there are very few of... Yeah, this more or less has no use and is just a distraction. Disallow.

    Magic Coat: Gives it something of an interesting relation with walls, but I could never see it getting use. With that said, it could help to play mindgames with Deo-D, so allow.

    Endeavour: Only possible use is in a low health or suicide situations, both of which personify risk. I approve.

    Destiny Bond: Predict correctly and get an extra kill. Predict incorrectly and the opponent is on to you. It's pretty good for exploring risk. Approve.

    Rapid Spin: A distraction from the concept, distinctly favors Illusion... no reason for it. Disallow.

    Knock Off: Why is this a VGM? It's more of a distraction than anything. Disallow.

    Haze: See above.
  18. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    On paper, Mean Look and company seem like very powerful moves. However, in practice, the opponent will almost always switch in a counter to your sweeper. This is why Gengar never uses mean Look: trapping Jirachi doesn’t help its case at all. Similarly, Landorus does not carry Block because it would rather Stone Edge Skarmory than essentially give it a free switch in. Indeed, basic strategy makes Mean Look pretty useless on most Pokémon. If opponents didn’t always switch in their hard counters, these trapping moves would be great. These moves could then allow you to set up six dragon dances without so much as an ounce of fear.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, Auramoth has Illusion, and the sole point of illusion is to force your opponent to make a bad switch and to then capitalize. If we give Auramoth Mean Look, it could very well trap forretress or breloom or something else that can’t threaten it and then start racking up boosts with Dragon/Quiver Dance and Proceed to sweep. Yes, on the one hand you give up valuable coverage to run both Mean Look and a boosting move, but this prospect is scary. I’m sure the Illusion+Mean Look combination will inspire some nasty set, and honestly I’d rather not find out what it is. Therefore, I ask BMB to disallow Mean Look/ Block/ Electroweb. Too much can go wrong and not a whole lot can go right. Just my opinion.
  19. YuuchyShi

    YuuchyShi

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    24
    Trick / Switcheroo
    Well... I see no reason not to allow these, so why not? But, having both would be redundant, so I'm going to support the one that goes with his typing. Allow Trick. Not Switcheroo.
    Circle Throw / Dragon Tail / Roar / Whirlwind
    I think the first two, Circle Throw and Dragon Tail, aren't good for Aurumoth. Roar... I can't imagine Aurumoth roaring, while Whirlwind, perhaps it could whirl those wing things? And personally, I think these moves are all useless on Auru, so just allow Whirlwind as an option and never use it.
    Gravity
    Gravity is a decent option on something that either gets STAB Earthquake or (Toxic) Spikes. Otherwise, no one really bothers. Allow it or Disallow it, I don't think it matters.
    Taunt
    A HUGE necessity, building up a +3 in Speed and +2 in SAtk and SDef and getting Roar/Whirlwinded? Nah. Sometimes, you don't have the space for it though, so I say Allow.
    Encore
    Encore would allow it to set up, particularly in the lead position when something uses SR or Spikes or something. So I say Allow.
    Block / Mean Look / Spider Web
    Unless we're going to baton pass these, there really isn't any point in using these. Another thing I don't really care about.
    Perish Song
    I don't find it necessary, and it isn't amazing in any one thing, apart from preventing last pokemon sweeps. Disallow.
    Magic Coat
    Bouncing back Taunt, Toxic, Thunder Wave, SR, Spikes, Spore, and other unappealing things make this a great choice, but the threat of wasting a turn is a risk as well. Allow.
    Endeavour
    Being sand, hail, and every entry hazard weak, it won't see much use, even with a focus sash. Disallow.
    Destiny Bond
    It has the speed to use it, but not the room. I don't care, again.
    Rapid Spin
    I think we should Allow Rapid Spin, because Illusion Aurumoth is probably the single best Rapid Spinner in the game. Fool your opponent into thinking it's something that threatens ghosts, like Scizor, and spin away all hazards. The illusion would be broken, but at least the hazards are off. Also, Aurumoth can function much like Kabutops: Spin, set up, and (hope to) sweep.
    Knock Off
    Against Eviolite Chansey, this is amazing. Otherwise you should trash it.
    Haze
    Better than the phazers. Allow.
  20. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    This is exactly why I feel we should allow it. Something we have to remember while building this capmon is this isn't a pokemon just about risk, it needs reward as well. Illusion is an ability that takes considerable skill to use (at least I assume it does as no one seems to use it right.) It will be difficult, if facing a competent oponent, to properly set up in the manner you described. This will be, I beleive, due to the metagame shift that happens when Aurumoth is released. Especially if it gets both Quiver Dance and Mean Look people will begin to use entry hazards even more then they already do and will undoubtedly begin setting them up earlier than they do now in attempt to see differences in stealth rock or spikes damage on switch in. So, to sum this up, yeah, it will be good. It will, however, be within the confines of the concept, if not encouraged by it.


    Tl;dr allow Mean Look
  21. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,828
    So I've been absent for a while and it actually wasn't because of Sandy. It was because of schoolwork. And now I see that the thread is on 24-hour notice!

    So let's talk about these stragglers. Trick and Magic Coat were moves I had my eye on, though I was pretty sure they'd be very situational. Magic Coat is still a pretty cool move for fitting the concept, in fact one of the best of all of these, imo. I am strongly against the phazing moves because their use involves a significant amount of luck and other moves can achieve what they would strive to achieve. I think I could have actually used Trick to argue for stunting the physical attacker role, since a Chansey Tricked into Life Orb (or anything, really) is quite crippled indeed... but the process order didn't allow for that, so you take what you take. Rapid Spin is dumb because it's "risky" in theory but there isn't nearly enough of a spinblocker/spinner dynamic in OU to justify making another one.

    The discussion on the speed boosters and Substitute are over despite my wanting to say stuff on them :( I might have planted a "seed" here regarding them, but nah... I'll let the submissions do the talking, even if it's less likely to spark more discussion there.
  22. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    The spread of opinions on these moves is impressively wide. O.O Also, good decision leaving QD to the voters BMB. It's for the best.

    Before this starts I might want to add that 'risky support' being on the list, I can see Aurumoth foregoing its offense almost completely (maybe aside from Megahorn/Psycho Boost to have one strong attack to fire off) and running 3 supporting moves, which is enough to get some sort of combo going. Although we all know Aurumoth can sweep things, the threat of the sweeper might work to the supporter's advantage because people wasting turns checking its predicted boosts will be giving free turns to support the team and switch out. With Wish already allowed (and Wishes from base 110 HP will make teammates happy and Aurumoth lasting despite passive damage) I don't think we risk making someone outclassed. With that in mind I've barely disallowed anything, at least we can leave it to movepoll creators to pick and choose what they like.

    Trick / Switcheroo
    I can see Aurumoth using these moves to good effect, it has the right stats to be a choice user and it can cripple a wall getting in the way. Really simple choice here, allow.

    Circle Throw / Dragon Tail / Roar / Whirlwind
    Phazing on the switch can shuffle your many checks till enough hazard damage piles on to bring them into KO range, however Aurumoth's strengths don't lend themselves to sitting there and phazing, and it can't afford to lose HP each turn before the negative priority move catches on. At least having the option would be nice, so allow Whirlwind and disallow the rest.

    Gravity
    Maybe Aurumoth isn't the ideal abuser but supporting the team with Gravity should be cool, especially when you can use it from under Illusion. I could say the same about Trick Room really, maybe it ain't for Auru itself, but I'm sure it can find a free turn to support the team with it. So please allow.

    Taunt
    Lead Aurumoth Taunting to prevent hazard setup when they were certain it'd switch out? Yes please. Also important to counter phazers once you're set up, although the 4MSS will be terrible, but for Stored Power in particular, this'd be a big one. Allow.

    Encore
    Even if it won't be a popular option, the threat of Aurumoth staying and Encoring a setup move when it should've switched will nag at the minds of players who'd want to boost on its switch, so increase the need to fire attacks its way for an ally to make a resistance-entry to capitalize on. And if you do trap a sweeper into its boosting move? Free boosts until they switch out. Suits the concept in my book, so, allow.

    Block / Mean Look / Spider Web
    They can be used. In fact, I think aside from Illusion Aurumoth, we don't really have any real OU user that can use these to proper effect. Don't just look at Aurumoth in isolation too - imagine, if you can, a Pokemon with the same blocking move that Aurumoth shares no counters with, and of course you disguise as it and trap on the switch. If your opponent guessed right, you must switch out, but if they switched the wrong counter - and this goes both ways - you can set up all over them and win the match. This seems enough of a reward to warrant use. Allow (probably Mean Look makes the most sense).

    Perish Song
    If we're allowing the trapping moves might as well allow this one for the combo, so it plays a totally different role from being a pseudo-phazing move. Another move important because people often won't see it coming. Allow please.

    Magic Coat
    Embodies risk and reward on a turn-by-turn basis. I had my eyes on this and Snatch both and wanted Aurumoth to have access to them, now it's time. Allow.

    Endeavour
    I don't like this move that much but I see no good reason to disallow it, and let people add as they like when constructing the movepolls. We already got Extremespeed and potentially Weak Armor's Speed boost too to guarantee the first hit next turn. And if they predict and switch, but you outpredict and Endeavor again? That reward - allow.

    Destiny Bond
    The very threat of this move and trading a valuable team member of theirs for Aurumoth even when it's on its last legs will have an impact. Also a move that synergizes well with Illusion and Weak Armor both. Allow.

    Rapid Spin
    Aurumoth has all the offensive presence it takes to force switches and capitalize on them with Rapid Spin, Illusion just makes it better. Allow.

    Knock Off
    Definitely has potential, Knock Off the scarf the first time the counter switches in, boost on the switch next time. Whoops. Suddenly not even naturally faster Scarfers can stop Aurumoth at its +1 Speed, whether it's achieved from Weak Armor or DD/QD. I've no idea what people see wrong with this move, since it's really just another form of setup Aurumoth packs, which when done right, lets it sweep teams. There's your reward. Allow.

    Haze
    This is, like, the one I don't get... even if you surprise someone from behind Illusion. You use Haze, then what? You probably took a hit and are low enough to get KOed next turn, but if you switch out to save your life, the opponent can boost again. You're back where you started, really... UNLESS Psycho Boost + Haze combo, in Dragonite's style? Naaah.... disallow.

    Of the extra options jas mentioned, besides Trick Room that I talked about under Gravity, I think at least Confuse Ray deserves a closer look, with Mean Look available confusion suddenly starts working like it should (and Mean Look Glare/T-Wave+Confuse Ray can demolish just about anything). Although it's not a VGM, as I'm a fan of parafusion (and confatuation) I'd like to see Aurumoth be able to give that set a try. If nothing else, that's another angle to dealing with its counters, whatever they may be, and having it as an option helps the other sets from increased unpredictability.
  23. scorpdestroyer

    scorpdestroyer is a pious radio
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    1,753
    Trick / Switcheroo

    Using either of these moves usually with a choice item... I don't see much of a risk in it. If anything, it will probably just cripple the opponent while potentially getting a beneficial item. Not much risk involved so I'd say disallow.

    Phazing moves

    I don't see why not. The negative priority runs the risk of being hit hard before the move is executed and also might force out a good counter. The phazing moves require prediction on when the opponent sets up and thus I say allow Whirlwind, but not any of the others. After all, how can Aurumoth throw opponents or roar or knock them away with a tail?

    Gravity

    Pretty much pointless. Aurumoth is not a support Pokemon and Gravity does not benefit it in any way. Disallow.

    Taunt

    This requires accurate prediction. Does the target have moves that could kill Aurumoth? Is it better to prevent it from setting up and risk getting badly damaged? There are questions to ask when considering using Taunt. Allow.

    Encore

    Similarly, prediction on the opponent's next move is key and I say allow.

    Trapping moves

    Using Illusion and causing a switch to something harmless and trapping it? Sounds good to me. Allow it.

    Perish Song

    Disallow it because Aurumoth is supposed to be a high risk guy and if we're giving it a trapping move the combo will be too easy to win with.

    Magic Coat

    Sure, why not? Bouncing back status is appealing but with the added risk of a wasted turn. Allow.

    Endeavour

    Worth considering. After all it certainly sacrifices a moveslot and requires Aurumoth to be low on health. We should allow it, though I don't think it will be used at all.

    Destiny Bond

    Disallow it. Because it allows you to get a cheap win.

    Rapid Spin

    As I mentioned, Aurumoth is not a support mon. So no. Anyway, I cant imagine how it can spin. I mean, look at it... Not really something that looks like it can spin, no? Disallow.

    Knock Off

    Is it worth a wasted turn to knock off an item and sweep? The user must consider carefully. I'd say Allow it.

    Haze

    The Phazing moves should already be enough but for those who find it worthwhile using up a turn of potential entry hazard damage to avoid the negative priority, they can consider using Haze. I'd say allow it as an alternative to the phazing moves.
  24. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    I like the idea of Aurumoth being able to run a support set in addition to its set up sweeper and wallbreaker sets. It would have a pretty fast taunt in comparison to, say, Deoxys-D, and would scare stuff out often, giving it a chance to spin or set up the field condition of your choice (although they're all pretty much useless for Aurumoth itself). Speaking of rapid spin, as far as flavor goes, I can definitely imagine Aurumoth spinning its wings at high speed to blow away hazards. But flavor is irrelevant at this point anyway, right? Oh, and for the "field condition" category, has anyone considered Tailwind? That could be interesting.
  25. JamesSonofBaboonzo

    JamesSonofBaboonzo

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    75
    I have very little time, so I'll keep this short, and maybe add more if the deadline gets extended. Sorry for any poor spelling/grammer/etc.

    I really like Trick Room and Tailwind for this CAP, because of how they help Aurumoth counter some of its checks, and support the rest of the team. At first glance, you may think that Aurumoth would be too fast to use Trick Room effectivley, but if it was used in conjunction with Hammer Arm, it could be able to sweep. TR has a -7 priority, meaning that your oponet will always cansel it going into effect with Taunt or a phazing move.

    I have no more time, but I want to hear more discusion about these moves.

    TL;DR, Allow Tailwind and Trick Room.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)