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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 3 - Threat Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    I think that for CaP4, the idea of hard counters on top of the hazard weakness and relative low base power of STAB's available. However, I think identifying a list of Pokemon who should retain the ability to destroy CaP4, but risk getting destroyed by the right move on the switch is more important. This makes the Pokemon much more viable, as it means it can sweep under the right circumstances, but risks a number of Pokemon coming in and destroying it if it misplays or does not have the right move in its set to deal with its checks.

    As such, I would like to propose Tornados-T, Infernape, Terrakion, and possibly Volcarona as its situational checks.

    Infernape and Terrakion are taken care of by moderately powerful STAB moves, but I think that leaving CaP4 with the ability to be situationally checked by these Pokemon is important, as these are among the fastest Pokemon with Super Effective STAB that could potentially revenge kill CaP4. This leads to a very interesting dynamic where CaP4 will have to take risks on the possibility that the other side comes in. This makes CaP4 inherently risky, and I do not believe it should have reliable ways to make these two Pokemon a complete non-issue.

    Tornados-T is similar, in that I believe it should be threatened when coming in, but still be able to attack back. Tornados-T is something of a staple in the current OU metagame, and being weak to it is a major risk. However, I believe that CaP4 should still have the ability to hit it back, bringing it into the same situation as Terrak and Infernape.

    Volcarona and Genesect are in a similar vein. I believe they should be threatening if they get in, but CaP4 should have means to deter them from entering play. Of course, it will be hard pressed to run moves to destroy all of these diverse checks in one set, so it may have to bluffs and other means of psychological warfare, or ensure that these checks are all destroyed before CaP4 begins to do its work.

    The problem with the "Pokemon who can kill after switch in" method is that any team with two checks will make it hard for CaP4 to score more than one kill if it has to switch into hazards. This means that spin support and clever play in an attempt to destroy at least all but one of the checks to CaP4 on the other team. This makes it a risk in and of itself to have on the team. But this also means that I strongly oppose any Purusit users (Tyranitar, Scizor... does anything else actually use it in OU?) from stopping CaP4, as that would mean that they would almost prevent it from being viable as it could likely only score one kill per match- a reward hardly worth the risk. In fact, Scizor and Tyranitar should be afraid to switch in even after a revenge kill if this Pokemon is going to succeed.
  2. Juicy

    Juicy

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    Just an idea, I hope I do not tread where I should not.
    While I agree that coverage moves are a fantastic way to deal with those hardy steels I think we have a fantastic opportunity here, taking the element of the concept to a higher level.

    How is this done?
    Through having a pokemon that has the ability to both be countered and not countered by all the aforementioned checks. Psychic/Bug typing has a lot of weaknesses defensively. High powered dark, rock, bug or fire types are going to pose a lot of problems and we could make sure it is susceptible to these problems, through stats or otherwise. This is how it can be checked. If this CAP was given a move or ability that could see one or more of its STAB's unresisted it could fire off high power moves that bypass typing. Hyperthetically this could be done through, for instance, a tilted lens STAB Psycho boost or through a designed move that has the effect of dismissing type. Etc etc. This is how it could also not be checked.

    What does this do?
    This creates that higher and exciting level of risk and reward, giving insight to how a metagame where one move could lose you the battle, takes to a susceptible pokemon that can be countered by and counters numerous pokemon simultaneously.
  3. Devidra

    Devidra

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    Jackm brought up a very good point. We have to look at the whole picture and accept that our CAP4 wil most likely be at 75% health or lower while switching in. Make it too risky and the pokemon may be near unplayable. A solution would be to either grant it perfect coverage or a way to mitigate passive damage.
  4. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Remember, guys, this discussion is about the threats. Your posts should focus on what the CAP 4 should threaten and be threatened by, not how to go about achieving this. I'm not saying that you should never talk about moves/abilities, just that the focus should be on the threats, and the posts shouldn't be about the moves/abilities.

    So, I see some talk about physical versus special, and it would be beneficial to list threats that depend on this consideration. A physical attacker would likely be walled by Pokémon such as Therian Landorus, Salamence and Gyarados, unless coverage moves are designated for them, which leads to moveslot problems. A special attacker would have a hard time against Chansey, Blissey and SpD Jirachi, and it would likely be faced with a choice between Psyshock hitting Terrakion, Dragonite, etc. harder, and Psychic to smack Gliscor and Therian Landorus. So which threat list should we pursue?
  5. Copper

    Copper

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    Honestly, I'm starting to see why Bug/Dragon might've been the better typing. This pokemon has 6 weaknesses, most which are STABs from most of the most popular pokemon of the meta, has weakness to the most common entry hazard used in competitive play, and most of a psychic types move pool still doesn't mean anything seeing that this pokemon can be taken out by priority moves.

    If we want to create a successful CAP our only option is to give it both some sort of priority move AND an ability that allows it to resist most of its threats, or, dare I even say it, make the first CAP pseudo-legendary. This sounds ridiculous but with this many threats without the previously mentioned this pokemons gonna need some seriously good stats if we don't want it to die immediately to a Tyranitar's STAB Stone Edge or Crunch.
  6. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
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    I think a specially based set would be the best option because there are many more options. This goes well with risk and reward, running certain moves will give the risk of not being as effective against the opposing team. For example, running hp fire when the team you face has a heatran. Your set would be completely walled.

    On the reward side though, running certain moves and providing the proper support for having those moves can prove to be very effective. Lets say we take the same example of hp fire against a heatran and your opponent also has a genesect that threatens your team. You know heatran walls your set so you have a dugtrio to trap and kill and after carefully setting up your psychic bug, you can take out the genesect. You could also run hp ground if your team fears heatran. This will limit the amount of pure counters we have and give us more opportunities to reap the rewards of good strategy/ potential sweeping from boosting sets.

    Now, i'm not saying those were likely examples but i think it shows how having more options on the moveset can help cap4 more rewarding if supported properly. Also having the option between psychic and psyshock provides a risk and reward aspect.
  7. BreloomMaster99

    BreloomMaster99

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    I'm sorry I don't have 2,000 posts. I was just stating how hard it would be for a Bug/Psychic to overcome its weaknesses and lack of coverage. SR Weakness, Weakness to Fire, Flying, and Dark attacks really hurt it. A lot of common pokes wall it: Ttar, Scizor, Skarmory, Magnezone, Mandibuzz, Jirachi, Blissey. It will not be an easy task to overcome all these threats. If the risk of having a Bug/Psychic pokemon is going to be worth it, as mentioned above, it will take some amazing stats, expansive movepool, great abilities, or a combination of the above.
  8. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Alright, this is meant to be illustrated by virtue of typing only, so let’s see…

    A heads up – there are 50+ potential Pokemons in both OU and BL, so instead I’m gonna go by playstyle, and debate whether common mons in the said playstyle will have an impact on CAP4. Of course, all the following arguments I’m putting out is based on 2 assumptions – that CAP4 and the OU Pokemon its facing off against have similar statspreads, hence no questions of outspeeding or KO-ing through resistance; also, that CAP4 has nil coverage and has to rely on its STABs and the obligatory Hidden Power.

    Long analysis is long a.k.a. Why am I spending such a long time doing this (open)
    Sun
    Obvious Fire weakness is obvious – Heatran resists both STABs that allows it to come in and simply roast CAP4 with Fire STAB of choice, Ninetales the Sun-starter can come in on resisted Bug STABs and do the same. However, Chlorophyll users (usually being Venusaur, with the occasional Lilligant / Victrebeel) are not going to enjoy being out of the sun against CAP4. Bug is SE against Grass, while Psychic-type attacks SE hits secondary Poison-types for good measure. In the end, I think Sun does not merit much tweaking – CAP4 can take on some aspects of the sun, but not others, and this provides us with an inherent risk versus reward.

    Sandstorm
    CAP4 resists one half of the infamous EdgeQuake combo, and 2x weak against the other half. This makes CAP4 a mixed bag against sand as it was against sun. Hippowdon probably can’t do much except Toxic stall, but the majority of other common sand mons play a gamble against CAP4. Landorus, Terrakion, Tyranitar, probably Lucario – they’ll either tear CAP4 to shreds with the correct tactics, or it goes the other way around. I mentioned Lucario here because of its frailness – either Lucario kills CAP4 or eats a STAB neutral Psychic-type attack that might spell its doom. Sand basically offers us the same in CAP4 as sun does – so I’m okay with that, too.

    Rain
    Rain is probably the only weather where the risks and rewards are not that cut-out obvious – that is, until I looked deeper. Common rain moves are Hurricane (SE against CAP4), Water and Electric moves (which CAP4 takes neutrally). On the other hand, CAP4 STABs hits just about every common rain mons neutrally – only neutrally, though. However, CAP4 does have the benefits of scaring off Toxicroaks that lack Sucker Punch, rare though that may be. With the prevalence of Rain in the current OU meta, though, I think it would be best if CAP4 is able to hold its own against Rain. I’m currently leaning towards checking the Flying-types in Rain, as this will gives us the maximum impact in studying risk versus reward (kill the Flying-type, or get ripped by Hurricane in rain).

    Volt-Turn
    This particular playstyle spells overwhelming risks towards CAP4 explicitly. Most Volt-Turners are decent tanks on their own, being able to take hits while dishing out SE U-turns or STAB Volt Switches. Against a Volt-Turn team, a player who has CAP4 on the team will hardly be able to field CAP4 without sacrificing someone on his/her team. Should CAP4 is on the field against a Volt-Turner, it’s pretty close to a lose-lose situation – the Volt-Turner can simply use the proper move to switch out and gain momentum against the CAP4 player. IMO, we can just let this be – buffing CAP4 against Volt-Turners in general could result in an OP end-product that fails to embody the risk/reward process.

    Dragon / Fighting-types
    With their powerful stats and the raw power of STAB (albeit neutral) Outrage / Draco Meteor, Dragons definitely will pose as a natural check to CAP4. However, it’s still a pretty two-way relationship – CAP4 can turn the tables in its favour by nature of stats and moveset. So I propose we let this continue as it should naturally – let the metagame choose which one to favour after we come out with a finished product. Same goes with Fighting-types really – CAP4 double resists Fighting-type attacks, and deals SE damage in return. But, should we come to the playtest period, it will be likely that most Fighting-types carry Dark or Rock-type moves in order to take on CAP4.

    Steels
    Steel-types are the best when it comes to forcing out zero coverage CAP4 with sheer defenses and regaining momentum. Plus, most OU Steel-types have natural physical bulk (look at Scizor, for instance) so I think we could let this be emphasized so that its much riskier for a player to send out CAP4 as long as the aforementioned Steel-types still at their prime.


    So, after the ridiculously lengthy analysis, here’s what I propose: that we let CAP4 be countered by mons attacking from the physical side of the spectrum. The notable physical moves that give CAP4 trouble are Pursuit, U-turn, and Stone Edge – moves that do not require the weather to work (*cough* Hurricane *cough*). At the same time, we could let CAP4 threaten mons that are weak on the physical side as well. That way, CAP4 can only take its chance to switch-in when (and probably only when) its threats are removed and its checks are weakened enough. How to achieve that, of course, is up to the player.

    Proposed list of Pokemons that CAP4 can threaten (open)
    Chlorophyll sweepers (assume neutral weather) – Venusaur, Lilligant, etc.
    Common sand mons – Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Lucario.
    Non-Physical walls or tanks – Blissey, Chansey
    Fighting-types in general – Conkeldurr, Infernape, Virizion, etc.
    Proposed list of Pokemons that threaten CAP4 (open)
    Common sand mons – Tyranitar, Terrakion, Heatran.
    Volt-Turners – Scizor, Landorus, etc.
    Physical walls (to force CAP4 out and gain momentum)– Skarmory, Forretress.
    Bulky tanks in general – Heatran, Genesect, and Rotom-W.

    P.S. I'm not exactly good at differentiating between checks and counters, so I put all of them as threats.
  9. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    I think we could use a bit more focus here.

    Remember, this is risky mon, so what I think we could do well with this particular typing is work on maximizing its special niches and getting proper coverage.

    For this, I'm thinking Bug/Psychic/(Ground or Fighting)/Electric would be the ideal mix to deal with Steel types. I don't particularly like Fire moves (outside obvious Hidden Power) because relying on them introduces problems with Heatran, and one of the things going for our type that helps circumvent Balloon is U-turn. Otherwise, the fact that so many of these threats run Special Defensive sets means we need the power to break them, and I think the typing is risky enough that Tail Glow or Quiver Dance presents itself as an option.

    So then, what should stop CAP4? I think Fast, Super-Effective Attackers should be at the top of our list. Someone mentioned Terrakion earlier, and I think Terrakion should be a check, but not a counter. Aerodactyl isn't OU, but jumps to the top of my mind as an example of what I'm thinking of. Tornadus-T will also cause trouble if CAP4 hasn't has a speed boost before encountering it. There will be other Pokemon that fit this mold, but the primary criteria fulfilled by these Pokemon is that they will be checks.

    Essentially, my argument would be that CAP4 would have NO Hard Counters, but a plethora of situational checks that, provided they come in on the right move or if CAP4 has not (as per the situation) boosted its speed or offense, it will be countered.

    An example of what I think would be the best solid situational checks includes Terrakion, Tornadus-T, Gengar, Infernape, Volcarona, Scarf Genesect, Scarf Darmanitar, Tyranitar, Scizor among OU, and then among the lower tiers Pokemon like Aerodactyl, Crobat, Weavile, Rhyperior in Sandstorm, etc. I think the STAB combination along with the correct coverage should make it very difficult to take CAP4 out if it comes in on a proper resisted move, and hard to switch in unless you come in resisting one of its attacks, or when it uses the wrong booster (say Speed against Tyranitar or SpA against Tornadus-T). I'm sure a more comprehensive list might present itself, but ultimately I think idling or trying to hazard stack against CAP4 should be dangerous by giving it the opportunity to set up properly against your opponents.
  10. HAiGAizZ

    HAiGAizZ

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    So far I'm liking the idea that CAPmon should be sorta like terrakion, there is no single Pokemon that can reliably counter every single set. Skarmory can handle scarf terrak, gliscor can handle band to an extent, but if terrak starts setting up some swords dances your only hope is to revenge kill it. I think this sort of Pokemon embodies risk. You pick one set and you'll be handled by Pokemon x but will destroy Pokemon y, pick anothet set and suddenly Pokemon y is a check, and Pokemon x is the one being destroyed. this causes a lot of risk in teambuilding, and will force risky decisions in battle as well.
  11. samtheman

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    I'd like to play devil's advocate to all of this talk about coverage. What if we created a Pokémon that doesn't have as wide a variety of different kinds of attacking moves, but had many more non-attacking move options? Too often I think we focus on CAP projects as sweepers, when there are clearly many other roles in the metagame. I'm going to use 3 examples of non-sweepers that I believe embody risk: Ninjask, Whimsicott, and Forretress. The first two are in the lower tiers, but see occasional use in OU, while Forretress is solidly OU. To a certain extent, all of them are risky to use against different playstyles, because their roles are less effective against them.

    Ninjask to me seems like the very definition of high risk, high return. If it is able to pass multiple speed and/or attack boosts to something with better attack and coverage, the opponent is in trouble. However, if SR is up, or an opponent has something like Skarmory to Whirlwind/Roar away the boosts, Ninjask is less likely to achieve its goal. Perhaps with CAP4, we could create a different (or better) kind of Baton Passer than Ninjask.

    Whimsicott is maybe the best punisher of any team that tries to set up, either offensively with stat boots or defensively with hazards. However, against teams that hit hard right off the bat, Whimsicott quickly becomes a dead spot on the team. Perhaps with CAP4, we could create a different (or better) kind of annoyer/disrupter than Whimsicott.

    Forretress is used for two things: spinning and setting hazards. Anyone using it for anything else is using it wrong. For teams that don't set many hazards, Forretress loses one of its roles right off the bat, and if the opposing team has its own Rapid Spinner, Magic Bouncer, or doesn't mind hazards, so is its other role. Perhaps with CAP4, we could create a a different (or better?) kind of hazards controller than Forretress.

    By focusing on what kinds of Pokémon and playstyles counter CAP4 than what types could be more fruitful than automatically assuming that CAP4 can only be risky as a pure sweeper, which will limit its role to just that.
  12. Demist

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    After reading throughout all the comments, I feel as if we are trying to create a less metagame-friendly Volcarona. Please, tell me if I’m mistaken, but I think we can somewhat compare our CAPmon with Volcarona. I do like the idea of CAP4 having no outright counters, because it feels that what our CAPmon would have over Volcarona is less Stealth Rock damage (25% compared to crippling 50%), ability to beat Pink Blobs and possibly Keldeo, and Jellicent with Quiver Dance, while losing to things like Heatran, Scizor, Genesect, Skarmory and Dragons (Volcarona has problems with Dragons too to some extent). What I like about Volcarona is the high risk/high reward factor. And I would like CAP4 to be the same. I find Volcarona having viability in different weathers, with different sets, having different counters. What is more, different options gives Volcarona different counters(Rain Volcarona can get past things like Keldeo; Sun Volcarona can get past Blobs, Dragons, Heatran; while Bulky Quiver Dance is used on more balanced, stall-ish, weatherless teams). What I’m trying to say there is that Volcarona has no outright counter, because they simply differentiate from the set used. I believe we should make CAP4 viable to get through any Pokemon, but as mentioned, having to choose on what it wants to get through. Many situational counters, such as Terrakion, Landorus, Tornadus-T, Gengar (pretty much what Deck Knight mentioned), making the risky play on both sides.

    What I absolutely don’t like as for now is that the CAPmon is stoped by most common Pokemon, such as Tyranitar or Scizor. I think that Tyranitar should be threatened by CAP4 as much as it threatens CAP4 . Let’s say we go something like Volcaron-ish like stats, CAP4 sets up Quiver Dance the turn TyraniBOAH switches in. Lets account we have Stealth Rock or layer/2 layers of Spikes. The next turn is actually dilemma, since if you get high enough damage roll you win, if not you lose a Pokemon who could've potentially won you the battle. While this may seem a little bit luck reliant, it actually plays high risk/high reward game. So, as I finish my (maybe unreasonable) paragraph, my opinion on CAP4 threats/what it threatens is being able to threaten every single Pokemon, while also being threatened by loads of Pokemon, be it switching on resisted move, or just by playing intelligently.
  13. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Many great comments were already made, so I'll keep mine short and summarize my thoughts. Bug/Psychic typing already gives many commong weaknesses, and this means almost every scarfed revenge killer will be able to revenge with the appropriate move. Just to cite some notable examples, all scarfed Landorus, Terrakion, Genesect to an extent, Tyranitar, and many others will be able to easily revenge. Now, about defensive (or just slower) checks/counters, Steel types, and in particular Heatran and Skarmory seem particularly hard to overcome; a Fire coverage move would let Heatran wall it comfortably, while a Bug/Psychic/Ground or Fighting coverage is easily handled by Skarmory.

    In my opinion, we should give CAP4 adequate coverage moves to threaten every check/counter it may have, but it would need to use all its moveslots to do so. For example, a Bug/Psychic/Ground/Electric coverage handles basically everything bar revenge killers/priority. The user must then choose between running a set-up move like Quiver Dance (and thus being walled by something, losing one coverage move), or to go all-out offensive (threatening basically every switch in, but being much more susceptible to faster threats). Both choices are very risky, since a set-up set is still quite susceptible to strong priorities and very fast scarfers, while an all-out offensive set will be worn down fast while switching around (weakness to hazards), by its eventual Life Orb, and is likely to be eventually killed by something faster.

    So, to sum up, depending by the set, CAP4 should have many different checks, but no absolute counter. Heatran and Skarmory will be natural candidates to a full counter if CAP4 decides to use only three attacking moves, while faster pokes with a SE move will easily check any version that is unable to set up.
  14. Heroes and Cons

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    Before we even think of Pokemon that can be a direct counter or check, we need to remember that any entry hazard setter can be a huge problem if rapid spinning proves difficult to achieve. Tentacruel's great bulk and Bug resistance, Ferrothorn's bulk, resistance to Psychic and, potentially, its access to Iron Barbs, Forretress' defensive typing, physical bulk and access to all entry hazards, and Skarmory's resistances and access to Spikes can all indirectly pose problems' As a side, Skarmory can also deal significant damage with Brave Bird to our new CAP (based on typing alone, at least) while resistances to both STABs will almost definitely cause major problems. Of course, as far as entry hazards go, Volcarona proves that even a huge entry hazard vulnerability does not necessarily make a Pokemon unusable, and may actually cause people to underestimate its potential threat level.

    As for direct counters based on typing alone, besides Forretress and Skarmory, two huge potential threats in my eyes are Scizor and Heatran. both of them resist both Bug and Psychic moves, Heatran has good bulk and super-effective fire moves, and Scizor possesses great physical bulk, near-ubiquitousness and a famous penchant for U-turning off of base 130 attack. All of these factors make these two steel types foes to prepare for.

    Volcarona will surely pose a major threat to users of this CAP without some serious preparedness for it. Its two supereffective STABs, access to powerful coverage in Hurricane (made even more dangerous in the rain), resistance to Bug, and great special bulk boosted to phenominal levels by by Quiver Dance, all make it a foe that, if not prepared for, will not only beat the CAP, but the entire opposing team too. While on a lower threat level due to its mediocre defenses and weakness to common coverage, Tornadus-T's resistance to Bug, insane speed stat, and access to STAB hurricane make it another considerable threat (though it may not be able to switch in depending on the final product). As a side-note, Chandelure may not be a common sight in the OU metagame at this point - though that will change once Shadow Tag is released - but its 4x bug resistance, supereffective STAB fire moves and base 145 Special Attack will almost certainly make it a viable check to the CAP.

    Finally, Tyranitar and Terrakion could be dangerous checks. They both resist one of the STABs, while being weak to the other, and possess huge attack stats and supereffective STAB moves to destroy our Bug/Psychic friend. Terrakion is very fast and, while it has to be careful about locking itself into fighting-type moves if it thinks the CAP will switch in, its speed, power and STAB rock moves will put the CAP in a tight spot. Tyranitar has massive bulk on both sides of the spectrum, and simultaneously can potentially damage our CAP with Sand Stream. Furthermore, not only are Crunch and Stone Edge both supereffective STAB moves, but Tyranitar also has access to the most powerful Pursuit (also STAB boosted) in the entire metagame - even stronger than that of Arceus-Dark in Ubers, in fact - which will make switching out an incredibly risky task.

    The fact is, Bug/Psychic is potentially threatened by a whole host of popular and dangerous OU Pokemon, all fo which wil need to be considered when deciding later points of our CAP.
  15. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
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    Seems that there are a lot of people who are leaning towards the situation where CAP4 will have no hard counters, only situational checks. But I'm afraid I want to disagree here, on the basis of a few arguments.

    The first, and lesser argument, is that we've already done it once in Krilowatt, sometimes referred to as Brokenwatt. Granted, CAP4 won't be an exact clone given the difference in STAB typing already, but I think going this route gives us less of an opportunity to explore the balance between risk and reward. Should we walk this path, when we see a finished CAP4 on the opposing game field, it's us who take more risks by deciding who to switch in against the CAP4. The CAP4 player simply bluffs, which is more of a luck gamble to me - less subtle, less eminent long-term effects. What's stopping us, then, from playing against CAP4 the way we played against Krilowatt?

    Secondly, having a hard counter - even if just one - can really force a CAP4 player to assess risks much better than if there are none. The way a SD Scizor plays off against an opposing Magnezone, a battler will attempt to minimize risks via face-off tactics and teambuilding around CAP4. In effect, we'll be studying the risks present in more facets of competitive battling, be it teambuilding, on-the-field strategies, and turn-by-turn prediction. I really feel that having a direct method to shut CAP4 down will provide us with a better platform on which to explore our concept.
  16. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    If we want the risk of using a Bug / Psychic type to be justified, we want a substantial reward. So I am going to go with no counters, a number of checks. Most of these potential checks have already been brought up (Terrakion, Scizor), but there should absolutely be no solid answer to this CAP once it is safely in - it should function like Salamence did in Gen IV, as much as that is possible with a Bug / Psychic type.
  17. jas61292

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    So, I'll start by saying that I agree with a lot of people here that we should be aiming for no real hard counters (to an extent), but a decent number of checks depending on the specific set or situation. Obviously though that doesn't mean it can just come in and set up whenever or even be guaranteed a sweep when it does. What I think we need to do though is make the Pokemon that stop it have to do so offensively, not defensively. Very few Pokemon in OU should be able to take more than 2 hits from it, but I don't think that will be that difficult to achieve with Bug/Psychic's great neutral coverage.

    However, while threatening everyone in OU is important, it means nothing if they KO you first, especially against the tiers top threats. I think the most important Pokemon we need to be looking at in this regard is Tyranitar. Even if we give this thing absurd SpA, it is not going to be beating a bulky Tyranitar on the special side in one, or maybe even two hits, even with SE STAB, and unless we give it incredible physical bulk, it is probably not surviving the return attack. I don't think this is ideal though, as Tyranitar is too important of a Pokemon to lose to so easily, especially when it threatens with Pursuit so you can't even switch out safely.

    Now, while that is just one specific case, I think overall it is true that the Pokemon that our typing has a harder time threatening are harder to break on the Special side. As such, I think that in order to reliably scare most Pokemon in OU, we need to be able to threaten as much, if not more, from the physical side than from the special side. Obviously though, doing so makes Pokemon like Gliscor, Landorus-T and Skarmory natural problems. Personally, I think these guys are good checks to have. While I think we should be able to overcome the easily, either with the appropriate coverage move (Electric and Ice or Water) or mixed offenses. However, these options should be seen as secondary, and by taking them we should open the door to allow other Pokemon to check CAP 4, namely Steel Types. The way I see it, if we naturally supplement its STAB coverage with Electric, Water/Ice and Ground/Fighting, or something to that effect (different types being necessary for if we do choose a more specially based Pokemon) it will force risk into the team building process. You can choose the generally superior coverage of STABs and a steel killing move, and risk losing to more dedicated walls, or take the coverage moves and beating the walls, but lose to those guys who just resist your moves (Steel Types).

    Looking at it from the other side though, we obviously do need Pokemon to threaten CAP4, beyond those that happen to wall a specific set. As I said earlier, I think that we need to make those threats do their job more offensively. One interesting example of this would be Terrakion. Like mentioned with Tyranitar, it is very unlikely that CAP4 will be able to survive the assault of STAB Super Effective hits that Terrakion will throw at it. However, on the same note, it is very unlikely that Terrakion will be able to survive any Psychic attack in return from CAP4. I think this is a good relationship for the two of them to have, and one that we should strive to have between CAP4 and numerous OU Pokemon.
  18. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Briefly, I'd just like to remind us all that we've already decided what roles this Pokemon was going to take going forward, and hopefully we all voted with these roles in mind going into the typing. If anybody has forgotten, I highly suggest they go back and read the Concept Assessment again. Trying to deviate from what we have already decided upon is almost as unhelpful here as poll-jumping. So please, don't do that.

    Anyway I probably have a lot to sift through, but I think I'll start with Deck Knight, who really made the point that I was trying to get across very succinctly and accurately:

    What I envision from this CAP, or at least from its offensive sets, is something of a combination of Hydreigon and Volcarona (in effect rather than in, well, BST, necessarily). Hydreigon is notable in that its movepool is expansive enough to threaten every single possible switch-in with one of its four moves. Volcarona is notable in that it is able to bulldoze through nearly everything in the game after setting up, despite being a challenge to set up successfully. I feel that some sort of combination of the two - while, notably, lacking the high-powered STAB moves of both - best embodies the above. This is, of course, ignoring other roles that may be possible at the same time.

    So I'll just make it official, as it seems we're in agreement on this point. This CAP should not have any hard counters. If you're confused about the definition of a hard counter, CAP provides an excellent one here, and that is the one I am using currently. In fact, I would go further and say the following:
    • Set-up sets should only be checked after one turn of setup, if this CAP is using a fully neutral coverage set in three moves
    • Generic attacker sets should have no totally safe switch-ins
    Feel free to argue with me on these points.

    Now, on other notes, we must remember that this Pokemon isn't existing in a vacuum, and we need to exercise practicality with our principles. While suggesting a more strongly physical Pokemon than special is all very well, we have to remember that it will be a lot harder for CAP4 to be able to deal with threats on the physical side. We are saying that Tyranitar (and probably Terrakion under sandstorm) will be great threats to this CAP if we don't go physical, and that's true. But at the same time, it is impossible to even threaten a good number of physical threats without at the same time opening yourself up to a good deal more - see Skarmory, Gliscor, and the like. As I have said before, while I want there to be teambuilding risk, I do not want to emphasise the idea of success being so heavily dependent on what the opposing team is carrying. Still, on the special side, there is still significant choice-related worry in the shape of Psyshock and Psychic, or indeed any number of other options. Personally, I want to see both special and physical options given equal treatment, that is to say that both are equally capable of pulling off a sweep. Again, I should like to reiterate that this CAP should, after one turn of setup (or more depending on the move), be capable of dealing enough damage through the unresisted combination of Bug/Psychic/Fighting to feasibly construct a sweep - I feel this is the minimum required Reward for the Risk of its use. At the same time, without boosting, it should be able to severely weaken or OHKO many of its usual checks on the switch with coverage that is unavailable to it in a 3-move combination (here I envision a mixed set being useful), but be unable to sweep itself, be it due to low Speed or pure susceptibility to revenge killing.

    Discuss.
  19. ChrisTehAwesome

    ChrisTehAwesome

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    This concept is tricky when discussing threats, because of the nature of its typing. If we go physical, we will have one set of counters/checks and if we go special we'll have another set.

    What if CAP4 had a mixed potential? I envision it being able to hit hard (maybe with some set up) from both sides of the spectrum, albeit not at once. It would help fulfill the risk/reward concept because it would not be able to have both options on the same set without running into some coverage issues. I think it would be cool to run the Bug/Psychic/Fighting coverage but still have counters based on which stat it's using or boosting.
  20. Yllnath

    Yllnath

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    Really, I don't see any viable questions left for this discussion anymore. As evidenced that BMB hasn't posed any questions either, we're just to discuss his given point of view.
    And as such, I think BMB is right. We shouldn't go for full counters, just checks.

    That said, I feel the threats discussion doesn't really have any further goal then. It's to help us define what we should keep in mind in later stat and movepool discussion, as we need to limit moves or stats that may hurt our chosen counters. Since there aren't any, and BMB has explicitly stated that CAP4 should be able to muscle through anything, I feel there shouldn't be any further conclusion from this thread. We just have a lot more leeway in the coming stages when we don't have to think of hard counters.
  21. Zarco

    Zarco

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    Steel Types like Scizor, Skarm, Heatran, etc. will naturally cause problems for CAP 4, due to their resistance to his moves and their ability to hit its weaknesses and vulnerabilities hard. However, I think CAP 4 should be able to threaten everything in OU. Similar to something like CB Terrakion (whose only counter in OU is Gliscor, which can be broken through in the right circumstances), I think it should be able to beat everything somehow when played well with good prediction and risk management. Maybe it can't beat everything at the same time- it could very well come down to 4MSS and Hidden Power choices to determine what each set beats- but it can threaten to beat everything when you don't know exactly what it's going to do. At the same time, it shouldn't be given truly safe switch-ins. CAP 4 could fill a very unique role in that it has no counters, only checks, but at the same time is checked by virtually everything. There's not a lot of risk if CAP 4 beats Pokemon X every time, is there?
  22. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    I think we're going to end up having at least one hard counter, anyway. Unless we make something really incredible, I don't see it easily muscling past all of Jirachi, Chansey/Blissey, the Intimidate users, and other assorted Steel-types. Hell, defensive Politoed is pretty bulky...
  23. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    It doesn't need to be really incredible, just have a moderately high SpA / Atk and good coverage moves combined with some solid boosting options. Not too much to ask for (we've given other CAPs with much better typings as much or more), particularly as the boosting options go, since this CAP really shouldn't be running a choice set...
  24. Zarco

    Zarco

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    Choice might actually work with the concept. It accentuates the risk by making you choose the best move, but also increases the reward so it's not an unthinkable idea. Think CB Terrakion- the right move destroys nearly everything, but so many things can deal with it if the user doesn't predict spot-on.
  25. FlareBlitz

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    This mon is SR weak, pursuit weak, u-turn weak, and has two of the most commonly resisted STABs in OU...that's a lot of risk. There would need to be pretty incredible rewards to justify it.
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