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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 4 - Secondary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Sep 30, 2012.

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  1. Mr Holiday

    Mr Holiday

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    Alrighty.

    If we're talking about "high risk, high reward", I have to agree with Thunderbolta and say Solar Power would be a good idea. When played right, Solar Power can generate ludicrously powerful attacks, but can backfire spectacularly in a number of ways if even a slight miscalculation is made. That definitely fits the concept, and I just like the idea of giving something Solar Power.

    Other wise...Anger Point would be a veeeerrrryyy risky option. Yeah, if it works you can maim just about everything that's not a dedicated physical tank or wall, but how often do critical hits happen? How much of a beating can our psychic bug take on the off chance it'll get a boost? Personally, I think that's a bit to much of a risk.

    Illusion could be very interesting, since you lose your speed boosts in favor of the element of surprise. In all honesty, the only reason I'd be against it is I don't like taking Zoruark's signature ability, though I understand that's not a legitimate reason not to give our CAPmon Illusion.

    What about Flare Boost or Toxic Boost? I'm not sure if those are considered competitively viable abilities, but I think they easily fit our Risk/Reward concept. Both compromise CAPmon's staying power, and being Burned kills physically offensive sets. However, both offer powerful offensive boosts, and if we do Toxic Boost, CAPmon's special offences will be left alone, meaning we could run a similar set for Weak Armor or Toxic Boost.

    Those seem to me to be good choices for risky abilities with high rewards. For the record, my choice right now would be Solar Power.
  2. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    I had a conversation with DarkSlay about this on IRC a few days ago. I'm going to throw out some generalizations that arose from that conversation. I obviously think this stuff is spot on, but I'll leave it up for your interpretation.

    Weak Armor allows us to explore late-game risk. For the most part, you aren't going to be using CAP4 with Weak Armor early on in the game. It simply is going to have too many checks to be of much use. If you do use CAP4 early, you'll get the boost, but your weakened defenses leave you as easy pickings for Scizor, priority, and Scarf-mons. And honestly, if you're running Scarf Weak Armor CAP4, then I don't know what's up with your strategy, haha. In general, you're going to wait until the end of the game to pick up the boost and sweep when your counters are removed. It tests late-game risk.

    Illusion, on the other hand, lets us test out early-game risk. That ability is going to be used early-game, for the most part, due to its weakness to hazards. Illusion allows us to test out the concept of lures, which is something we've lost a little bit of in the transition to Gen5, in my opinion. With just Weak Armor, we won't be testing out early-game risk. That is why Illusion is the absolutely best complementary ability. It doesn't function very well late-game, but it works as an excellent lure at the start of the match. Illusion would allow us to check out risk at the beginning stages of a match.

    Overall, Illusion and Weak Armor complement each other very well. One lets us test early-game risk, while our current ability will be working with late-game risk. I think that these two abilities would absolutely work best in tandem with one another to give CAP4 a plethora of risky situations to test out.
  3. Camisado

    Camisado

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    I haven't thought of anything outstanding to nominate yet, but I would like to throw out the thought that By utilizing Dream World mechanics, 'safer' abilities may be more viable if they have synergy with Weak Armour by limiting the movepool for chosing the other ability.

    The most classic BW1 examples is rewarding players who didn't use Moxie on heirr Salamence with Outrage, but a more appropriate example may be how in BW2 Weather Ball Venasaur can'tt use Chlorophyl.

    This doesn't have to be limited soley by ability ( Rash Aura Sphere Raikou comes to mind, but if DW Raikou was out, you'd still have to use pressure) and I find it interesting I cannot think of a risk/reward situation that a Pokemon has been able to really be successful in, bar maybe BW1 Gliscor, who still had insane playability without the Roost/Stealth Rock/ U-turn that it used so sucessfully in DPP
  4. RabidChipmunk

    RabidChipmunk

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    In that case, BMB, I guess I'll have to give my support to Rivalry. Rivalry is inherently risky, since there's a 50% chance you'll get the boost, and a 50% chance you'll be hindered instead. Neither Rivalry nor Weak Armour are particularly reliable abilities, so each has just about as much competitive merit as the other.

    I'm not really feeling Simple, though. Yeah, a Simple Shell Smash or Curse will hurt to compensate for becoming ridiculously good offensively, but just add White Herb and suddenly you don't have to care anymore.
  5. RavensNation

    RavensNation

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    Going with Deck's idea, Flare Boost and Toxic Boost are both viable abilities, depending on what road CaP 4 takes, offensively. Flare Boost would probably give CaP 4 a higher base Atk (maybe, considering it doesn't nullify the Atk drop from the burn status) while Toxic Boost would give it a higher base SpA, although that stuff is for later polls... but yeah, Flare Boost and Toxic Boost. Me gustan.
  6. heatran1919

    heatran1919

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    Simple is interesting, although I am having a hard time seeing any sets other that choice sets picking weak armour over simple. This could be balanced in the moveset stage, though. Including very few stat changers that would only profit from having simple (Swords Dance, Tail Glow, maybe even Quiver Dance), instead staffing it with moves like Curse and Shell Smash would make Simple less appealing.

    And, while it doesn't exactly synergize with Weak Armour, Trace would be an interesting pick. While it isn't very tactically viable, it has the potential to give a hefty award with a really good ability, like Swift Swim while fighting a rain team, or Heatproof after switching in on a Heatran.
  7. Mr Holiday

    Mr Holiday

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    Wow...fast posts.

    Did not see your post, BMB, before I posted mine. In that case...

    Defiant or Justified could be good. Both rely on circumstantial events (stat drops, Dark type attacks) to net offensive boosts, and while those things aren't uncommon, there's no guaranteeing they'll happen either. Or that they'll happen when you need them to.

    What about Download? You'd have to accurately predict what your opponent is going to send out to get a good boost from it, and if the enemy sends something you weren't expecting, or even a differant set than you were expecting, it could backfire, leaving you with boosted special attack against a special wall.
  8. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    Like MCBarret and AR put it, Analytic can work just fine in tandem with Weak Armor with the right Speed stat. I won't say which one to not poll jump, but I have no doubt that if presented with such a challenge the CAP community would definitely come up with suitable stats.

    I also find Deck's proposal of Flare Boost as fairly convincing, especially given its duality with Weak Armor. I'm still concerned about the damage build up, but weather+Life Orb damage on many other mons is manageable already, if CAP4 gets some kind of recovery (and there's other options than Recover to explore, riskier to use) then it should be workable (especially mixed in with Substitute to use on the switch and buffer against Priority).

    One ability that I believe nobody mentioned is Klutz. This is a very under-appreciated ability, especially since most Pokemon with access to it typically have better options (maybe save Lopunny). Klutz costs a Pokemon its item slot, as well as whatever benefit the other ability would offer, and for what in return?

    Well, paired with Weak Armor it means no Defense drops, for one thing. It also means immunity to enemy Tricksters, or even a more versatile CAP4 Trickster that can bluff for longer before crippling the correct target. There's lots of crippling items that can be tried (Ring Target, Choice items, Iron Ball, a status Orb or Black Sludge, etc.).


    As for Magic Bounce, No Guard, Illusion, or even Download (on a Mixed Attacker it really doesn't matter)... I'd rather not pick those. Especially given that with Weak Armor chosen, they all heavily outclass Weak Armor and would be selected by the majority of players without a second thought. Whatever ability is chosen should synergize with Weak Armor, but at the same time be roughly equal in viability to it - and those IMHO are clearly superior. Don't take my word for it either, but ask yourself and other players: would you really risk using Weak Armor and building a set around it if given the option to instead use Magic Bounce, No Guard, or Illusion?

    As for Birkal's argument in particular: By saving CAP4 until lategame you're instantly giving away you're using Weak Armor over Illusion (unless that's a mind game, but then, you're definitely using Illusion the sub-optimal way). Revealing which ability you're running the moment you switch in will work heavily against the surprise factor you're hoping for.
  9. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    Before we venture much further, I wish everyone would review the primary ability discussion thread. There were a lot of points made on abilities that are being regurgitated in this thread. In that thread, it was generally established that weather-based abilities and ones that require HP loss (Flare Boost, etc) aren't optimal for CAP4. Make sure that your points in this thread build upon our discussion from that thread. The bests posts here will talk about the relationship between Weak Armor and a proposed ability. Just saying "CAP4 with x is cool" isn't going to cut it anymore. Consider the dynamics at play.
  10. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego This is what is technically known as a Firecat
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    I'm still going to back Illusion, for many reasons made in the past thread. Birkal also made an excellent point about early- and end-game risk. They will complement each other very nicely, and if stats are made so that it depends on weak armor to sweep, per se, you essentially give up that ability for a turn or two where you can indeed surprise somebody and support a team--but at the cost of possibly never sweeping in the match.

    Also, Moxie is another interesting ability, trading a speed boost for an attack boost. It could work nicely depending multiple factors. Again, many points were made in the past.
  11. Ewil

    Ewil

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    Actually i like the idea of Flare Boost/Toxic Boost since with Weak Armour we explore the speed increasing risks, and with Flare/Toxic Boost we're going to explore the aggresive side of our pokemon, personally i prefer Flare Boost since our poke seems to screams "SPECIAL SWEEPER" and the Burn damages allows our pokemon to survive at least one hit after 1-2 turns in play and forces the Bug/Psychic to be careful with his switches since he isn't so fast to outspeed the meta, so we have to choose wisely the speed stat.

    Rattled or similar abilities are not good for me since Weak Armour is better then Rattled and the player will always choose the first ability.

    The only speed boost ability that comes to my mind that can be accessable is Unburden, but i think that Weak Armour is already more useful, since you can have the boost multiple times and not only one (if we decided not to give Recycle to him).

    Simple is too safe for this pokemon, so is an obviuous NO.

    No Guard i think is good as a second ability, but is again, too safe (maybe depends from his future movepool).

    Anger Point and other situationals abilities like Rivarly are bad for me and involves the case, not the risk.

    I don't like the idea of Illusion, since, for me it's, again, more or less situanionals, you can bluff more if you prevents rocks or hazards to be off the field, but that can be a challenge, idk.

    So, Long story short:

    Goods:

    1)Flare Boost
    2)Toxic Boost

    Maybe:

    1)Unburden
    2)No Guard
    3)Illusion

    Nope:

    1)Simple
    2)Rattled
    3)Rivalry
    4)Anger Point
    5)Others too situationals abilities
  12. Count Bleck

    Count Bleck

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    At this point, I'm actually surprised no one mentioned sheer Force. Sheer force gives you powered up moves, but no extra effects. No lucky boosts, extra status, no luck. Without these boosts, some moves can actually become less viable, making it much riskier to consider, but also more powerful. The no recoil from Life orb also helps, but that also makes you very predictable on the item list and therefore easily counter able.

    Another one I'm surprised at is Swarm. When our CAP is at a low enough health from SR, Swarm can activate and give it's Bug moves an extra STAB bonus. If it's physical, that means boosted Megahorn, U-turn, X-scissor, and Attack Order. On the special side, we have Bug Buzz & Signal beam. The risk comes with the pokemon who can tank these moves, such as Kitsunoh, Heatran, and scizor, which are all guaranteed threats to our CAP, forcing a switch, and likely killing it if SR is in play.

    My last suggestion is Unaware. Unaware eliminates the threats of boosted killers and can be a decent threat knowing you won't be able to set up against it.In addition, this also mans that other version of CAP4 in a mirror match will lose their speed boosts when your CAP4 comes in. However, this also means that powerful moves like Draco Meteor will continue to crush you until you switch or are dead.

    Also, I'm putting support behind Illusion, Analytic, and Justified. analytic is an ability that isn't appreciated enough by it's regular users, Illusion will be great for the first rounds of the match(until you are discovered.) and Justified because an increased attack in exchange for a decent chunk of health is a major risk.
  13. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
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    I actually have two abilities in mind for the secondary ability.

    First of which is the extreme, the extreme, Contrary. Yes, that ability. Wo wo, put down those torches and pitchforks and hear me out here. If we gave it the proper move to use with it, say, Hammer Arm, then the opponent would be placed in an interesting bind - do they go for the attack, thus potentially giving you the chance to fire off a hammer arm and go faster anyways? Or do they switch to a ghost, attempting to get a free switch for a hammer arm, only for you to set up a tail glow/swords dance/ what have you. This move is simply a example, although I'm not sure how well contrary would work with, say, psycho shift. Even if we don't directly give it a move that drops the user's stats, it would give CAP4 an interesting position as a niche intimidate/stat drop move counter. Yes, I'm aware this isn't the riskiest ability in the game, but both psychic and fighting type moves with stat dropping components would be easily abused by dark/ghost swapins -depending on which type-, neither of which is hard to have on a team. This ability honestly requires a little bit of speculation to explain, so sorry if it's borderline poll jumping.

    Secondly, Marvel Scale is risky in that it absolutely mandates having a condition on you, which can really hurt you in the long run, since Burns neuter your attack stat, Poison deals rapidly stacking damage which can force you out, Paralyzes make you absurdly slow and give you a chance of not even acting, and Sleep gives your foe several free turns, and is easily abused with gen V sleep mechanics. But the payoff is great - a 50% increase to a probably already great defense stat.

    Edit: For the record, I just threw these out as possibilities. My main support is still for No Guard.
  14. Meganium Sulfate

    Meganium Sulfate

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    I would like to once again proclaim my support of Magnet Pull, an idea that was brought up in the first discussion thread. While I believe that it could have been a great primary ability, I think that it has even more potential as a secondary ability.

    Magnet Pull is one of the few abilities that prevent switching, and due to the importance of switching in pokemon battle (and the importance of the Steel types that this ability targets), Magnet Pull is a very significant ability. Currently, it is made less so by the fact that the only pokemon to currently be able to use it in OU, Magnezone, is unable to deal with common steel-types such as Heatran, Lucario, most Scizor, and some Ferrothorn. Its use on a fast, less bulky pokemon like the one we have been leaning towards creating for our 4th project has never been fully explored.

    The overall effect of Magnet Pull is to make players with Steel types on their teams more wary about sending Steel-types against a pokemon with this ability, as good users of the ability will make sure that the pokemon counters as many Steel-types as possible. On CAP4, however, this ability could be challenging to optimize fully, since neither of its STAB types is very effective against Steel-types. This is why giving CAP4 Magnet Pull will be especially risky. It would represent a missed opportunity to keep CAP4 from hunting down Steel-types more easily than most, but it would be risky to actually face any Steel-types with CAP4.

    As a secondary ability, Magnet Pull generates even more risk. While CAP4's main counters are Steel types, players will naturally be hesitant to counter CAP4 with Steel-types in fear of being trapped by Magnet Pull. Thus, if CAP4 can have Magnet Pull, players that use it will have to choose between two risky options: they can either employ a Magnet Pull version, and face Steel-types a bit more reliably while still sending CAP4 directly against its best checks, or have a Weak Armor CAP4 that relies on deceiving the opponent with the threat of CAP4 possibly having Magnet Pull to avoid its checks. This second option is particularly risky, but has the greatest reward; while the gambit falls apart once Weak Armor activates, it allows CAP4 to run its greatest Weak Armor sets while keeping its checks away until the lategame. This only works if CAP4 can avoid activating Weak Armor until its checks are gone, an incredibly risky but worthwhile strategy.

    This combination of abilities therefore encourages risky play, making CAP4 a unique, powerful epitome of risk in the metagame.
  15. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
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    Bandwagoning for Marvel Scale!

    It pairs perfectly with Weak Armor. It's risky (somewhat) and totally usable. I love love love this suggestion.
  16. Himanattsu

    Himanattsu

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    I would like to mention Marvel Scale. With Weak Armor, your biggest threat is residual damage via status, physical priority / attacks in general, or paralysis. Marvel Scale is an answer to all of these downfalls. By utilizing a bulky sweeper set, CAP4 can come in on status and get the Defense boost, so that you're not prone to physical assaults, and then boost up / sweep with a Choice item.

    The risk involved with this is that you will have less turns to sweep once you get poisoned / burned, or you will be prone to being revenge killed if you are paralyzed. One could argue that Marvel Scale is even riskier that Weak Armour in this regard.

    Marvel Scale can have use over Weak Armor if the player does not choose to invest in speed. Furthermore, it does not make CAP4 a one-trick pony; Marvel Scale forces the opponent to think twice when statusing it. If Marvel Scale CAP4 is played well, it can end the game.
  17. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    Going off of what SubwayJ said, Special Hustle would be impressive to pull off. Accuracy loss always seems to revolve around risk, where if this Psybug isn't bulky enough, missing that one clutch move could mean the end of a game.

    I also the idea of Toxic Boost. There aren't many Physical Psychic type Pokèmon, and this one could start a new trend towards bulky Dark-types or something, I dunno. But Toxic Boost seems a lot riskier than Flare Boost, since you could easily regain the lost HP from the burn if the Psybug has Recover or something.

    Last but not least, I've seen a few scorpions floating around the Art Poll, and am thinking that Immunity would at least be an interesting flavour ability. It could be associated with risk in the sense that you could try to come in on a Toxic or something along the lines, and try to set up from there.
  18. Camisado

    Camisado

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    The image I have of a Weak Armour-focused Cap4 working so far is as such: An average-at best- physically defensive Poke switch in on a Fighting attack or other physical attack, takes Stealth Rock damage, taking enough damage that they won't be able to switch in again and take another hit, receive a +1 Speed boost, and using it's offensive typing to deal as much damage as possible.

    The three generic ways I see to countering this strategy is
    A.) Use Residual damage+ a strong-hitting attack to destroy CAP4 before it can exploit it's +1 Speed boost,
    B.) Status it first and nerf it's ability to sweep.
    C.) Priority

    It is in this mindset that I would like to nominate Marvel Scale.

    As a player using Cap 4 I have to make the best judgment "How is the opponent going to use their team to stop my Cap4 Weak Armour sweep? Your offensive sweeper is not going to appreciate getting paralyzed, and regardless of if its' a physically or specially offensive, it's going to hate getting Burn or Poison damage after taking all forms of residual damage, a hit on the switch in, and being even more vulnerable to priority after a -1 defense than a Bug/Psychic already is. Cap4 is clearly going to hate status.

    Creating a stat spread designed to be able to fully exploit Weak Armour will not create a spread that Marvel Scale can excel in. Choosing Marvel Scale over Weak Armour would change the entire function of Cap4 from an offensive force to a defensive pivot, that with a lack of resistances and a huge vulnerability to passive damage, has a difficult time switching in. Very risky indeed. Again, creating a stat spread based around Weak Armour should not create an environment where players "chose a safer ability because it has no drawbacks" because of how vulnerable CAP4 already is to all statuses.

    Even if others felt differently, we could use Dream World mechanics to balance the movepool of selecting one ability over the other.

    In short, Marvel Scale creates an environment where you're measuring the Risk/reward of choosing an ability that will help an offensively-typed Cap4 be able to perform it's role better, verse trying to mitigate one of it's biggest weaknesses with a defensive ability and exploit a riskier, defensive role and to create reward in ways few people have suggested with CAP4 so far.

    Edit: I spend 30 minutes coming up with this post, and two people beat me to it in the time it takes me to type it. V.V
  19. ASB

    ASB

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    I just had an epiphany- Simple would be very fitting (at least as far as the pokemon's design is concerned)- let me explain my reasoning. The pokemon has weak armor, and likely would gave decent or good physical bulk to complement this. As such, the design may have a shell, and shell smash would likely be in its moveset for this reason. Simple would increase both the risk and reward of this move, causing it to take truckloads of damage from pretty much everything and exposing it to priority but also give it a huge reward factor. Also, the Bug/Psychic typing would really make sense with Quiver Dance. The problem is that both of these would be glass cannons, something that we're not going for and I don't think any players would ever opt to use Weak Armor when they're offered a Simple White Herb Shell Smash QD set that could sweep both sides of the spectrum easily after two turns set-up...

    Trace seems really interesting and risky, too. Depending on what ability you happen to get, it could make or break the game (and also make the pokemon's strategies very versatile).
  20. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    I was just wondering is there any particular reason people don't like Harvest? Just wondering why i'm the only person that feels like its a great idea.

    I'm not entirely behind the idea of marvel scale but if we want to go for a defensive ability, i think Multiscale would be the better option. Marvel scale works on milotic because it is a bulky fucker and can handle the hp loss and doesn't really care about paralysis. Our pokemon is going to be more offensive in nature with average defenses at best. It won't be able to establish a solid set around marvel scale because the loss of HP will be too much to warrant "protection" from priority; you'll go down fast anyways. Multiscale can provide a set up opportunity for CAP, and if we dont give it recovery options, could become a hit or miss deal. CAP will have only one shot to set up and abuse its ability before it becomes ineffective in much the same way weak armor variants have only one shot to abuse the speed boost. I'm still not sure i want a defensive ability like multiscale on this CAP, but i feel like multiscale would be a more useable option than marvel scale.
  21. adhdtv

    adhdtv

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    @nyttyn While the concept of contrary is intriguing, its also far from an optimal partner with Weak Armour. First off, you would have to give CAP4 moves like hammer arm, superpower and/or other strong moves that normally lower your stats. If we are using offensive contrary, it implies lower offenses and thus devalues any non-setup variant of weak armor. Intimidate makes you stronger. People have to worry about defense boost hax with shadow ball. Contrary makes tail glow and swords dance lower your stats, so thats not a risk we need to worry about. The only thing you can do AGAINST contrary is swagger.

    Magic Bounce is the furthest thing from risky and contradicts the purpose of Weak armor unless CAP4 has pathetic special defense, as weak armour implies physical bulk. At this point CAP4 becomes a physical espeon, who has psyshock anyways.

    I would advocate Simple as long as CAP4 does not get any defense boosting moves or shell smash(Seriously, white herb=OP). Weak armour is the other ability, which implies relatively high Defense, then if defense is doubled, it only renders Special attacks and critical hits as viable options. This significantly lowers risk. However, a boosted swords dance or nasty plot could be just what CAP4 needs to sweep.

    I'm sad no guard didn't make the cut, but I'd like to back up Sheer Force and introduce Shield Dust. Both of these remove secondary effects from attacking moves. These are more viable with each other than Weak Armour admittedly. However it decreases luck based victories, which was the goal with No Guard. Hopefully No guard advocates will back me up here?

    I like the concept of Harvest too. It makes sense flavourwise, and I like the fact that it encourages Sun, because rain is way too broken. That said, I want to see Custap Berries and Pinch Berries used more. However, it may make Bug Bite Scizor become more common.

    I also think Analytic and Illusion work perfectly with Weak Armour, as it allows for tanking with the former and mind games with the latter. Furthermore, unlike Zoroark, CAP4 may be able to take some hits thanks to its defense.

    I would finally like to back Quick Feet and Marvel Scale. They work well with Weak Armour, and allow for potent Sweeping with the former ability and tanking with the latter.
  22. ??????

    ??????

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    Like these suggestions. In lieu of those who wanted No Guard, I would like to put forth Compoundeyes as a second ability. The argument I saw for No Guard was to reduce luck-based risk, which is what we do not want for this CAP, we want different types of risks highlighted in previous threads, such as team-based and situational risks. Compoundeyes would serve as a buffer to make this CAP fulfill its intended purposes, without the obviously overpowered nature of a ability like No Guard.

    Also works very well flavourwise. Also we could go with Honey Gather as previously mentioned...
  23. General Spoon

    General Spoon

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    I also believe that Birkal's reasoning for supporting Illusion is solid. Weak Armor CAP4 will see more use in the late-game, so it only makes sense that its Secondary ability causes it to see more use in the earlygame.
  24. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    I really believe we're being a bit too tight-assed here about having a "glass cannon ability."

    Does anyone believe Conkeldurr is a glass cannon? After all, its Guts Set relies on it using a status orb. The fundamentals of the set are that you use the status orb to prevent an even nastier status from befalling you, and then you use the moves on the set (in Conkeldurr's case Drain Punch) to keep yourself healthy or sweep over a limited time.

    Now the obvious follow-up is that Conkeldurr isn't weak to Stealth Rock. But Conkeldurr is vulnerable to Spikes and can't sufficiently harm Skarmory unless it runs Thunderpunch or Fire Punch, a suboptimal move because it's not powerful enough as a general attack to justify use over Mach Punch, Payback, or Facade.

    We've already established an element of risk with CAP4's type in that it becomes less valuable with SR on the field. So does its brethren, Volcarona. Now, Volcarona doesn't have a Status Orb set, and yet it survives with a 50% SR weak. Is Volcarona a glass cannon? Because SR + Flame Orb x2 (25 + 12 + 12 = 49) on CAP4 does less damage to it than SR itself does to Volcarona (50). Both Pokemon are much more viable if you can get SR off the field, and while they don't like Spikes, are less affected by it.

    So the entire notion that Flare Boost shunts CAP4 into glass cannon status is ridiculous, and I honestly believe we're being way too tightly would about either of these abilities. We chose a CAP project based around a high-risk concept. The same people getting apoplectic about Weak Armor's Defense Drop being shitty are the same people that SPAM Close Combat without worrying about it, because the Defense Drop never matters until you take a hit. Weak Armor facilitates the not taking of an additional hit.

    What Flare Boost brings is the ability to slaughter priority attackers in the right situation, because without fail priority attacks are physical, (Vacuum Wave is irrelevant based on CAP4's typing alone) and Burn absolutely destroys them. I know this requires assumptions of attacks down the road, but we already have built-in assumptions of set-up sweeper which I don't think are entirely valid or invalid, since Weak Armor lets us use Choice Sets in the hopes of picking up a speed increase that will facilitate the Choice Sweep.

    I believe there is way too much pigeonholing abilities because they lend "too comfortably" to one playstyle or another, in the same exhortation to "think outside the box." Glass cannonry is determined primarily by stats (See Conkeldurr and Volcarona examples above), and the TL has control over that slate, and thus if you want to mandate no defenses BELOW a certain BSR level, you can certainly do so. Would that also be exercising a large degree of control? Yes, but that vicegrip is also showing up in this thread right now.
  25. vonFiedler

    vonFiedler Visualize It
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    I for one am not going to be defeatist about No Guard. It has different risks, rewards, and while Weak Armor will affect the stats portion of this cap, No Guard will affect the movepool. Based on the number of people who think that No Guard is "safe", it still comes across that you guys can't separate the ability from Machamp, a fairly bulky pokemon with great resists. I shouldn't have to repeat that CAP4 is weak to common inaccurate moves like Stone Edge and Fire Blast, but it bears repeating as long people keep saying that there is no risk to the ability. What it offers as a reward in my mind is not simply a little more accuracy on Megahorn, or even gimmick moves like Zap Cannon, but No Guard gives great reward potential when it comes to status effect moves. No Guard and Weak Armor can easily coexist in this fashion.
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