CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 4 - Tertiary Ability Discussion

[Blackhawk11]

I'm not sure exactly how Weak Armor will play out on this CAP, but I think it may be necessary to give CAP4 a third ability (that doesn't automatically reveal itself) that would see use alongside Weak Armor and Illusion. My reasoning is that if the opponent sees a un-Illusioned CAP4 right off the bat, they'll know that it has Weak Armor (assuming NTA or a terrible tertiary ability) and refrain from hitting it with a physical attack until they can properly handle it. A third, viable ability such as No Guard will give Weak Armor a better chance to be successful.

 

[Devidra]

Well since the abilities I wanted weren't slated ill go with what I've always backed up.No Guard the reasons have been stated so many times I won't bore you. Multiscale sounds interesting, but it just doesn't seem to fit the concept as well.

 

[Theorymon]

(Sorry if this is sloppy and short, I'm really sleepy atm!)

As capefeather said, he did sorta get the idea of a third ability from me. Personally, I feel that going with no competitive ability is a real cop out for this concept, because there are many kinds of risk left to explore. At the moment, we currently only have a focus on short term risk (one being early game, the other late game). I think having a third competitive ability is a great way of pushing this concept so we can learn more about the concept of risk in Pokemon. I have 3 main kinds of risk in my mind at the moment that I think would be a good idea to explore.

No Guard
Kind Of Risk this ability could help us explore: Coverage Risk

I'll admit, I use to be very against No Guard, since I simply felt that it didn't fit the concept of risky business. Now that Weak Armor AND Illusion are the abilities though, NOW I think No Guard actually fits the concept pretty well. Yeah as we all know, a bunch of inaccurate moves destroy CAP 4, but that's not the main reason I'm interested in No Guard as a risk. The main reason I'm interested in no guard now is because its interaction with CAP 4's movepool will actually give more risk to Illusion. Currently, the only real risk for Illusion is "The opponent will react more strangely because of the fear of Illusion", other wise its the obvious go to move if you don't want to risk Weak Armor. No Guard changes that. Excuse me for being a bit poll jumpy here, but No Guard allows us to give this mon easy coverage with inaccurate moves, thus giving a new risk to Illusion and maybe Weak Armor: Are you willing to give up reliable coverage to play mind tricks or get the speed to destroy common Choice Scarfers, or is No Guard just THAT reliable? I think this could help us learn more, is there a risk with so much payoff that its worth the consequences, or is the safe option the option players are always going to gravitate to regardless of the massive pay offs of the risk? So TL;DR: No Guard's interaction with Illusion and Weak Armor can let us truly gauge what risks players are willing to take on a given Pokemon instead of forcing the risk.

Sturdy and Multiscale
Kind of Risk this ability could help us explore: Team building risk

The idea with these two is pretty simple: The risk of these two abilities is that without proper support (aka Rapid Spin and Weather support), they are both dead weights. Now assuming CAP 4 gets multiscale and no recovery like Bugmaniacbob suggested, I'd like to note that I don't think CAP 4 would be like CB Dragonite as much as you guys are thinking for one reason: the typing.
Not only does Dragonite have a better defensive typing than CAP 4, it also has that sexy STAB Outrage to work with. Meanwhile, CAP 4 is stuck with Bug and Psychic-type moves as stabs, potentially making a choice multi scale set a lot less appealing than it was on Dragonite. I actually have a slight preference for Sturdy currently though. It's not as good as Multi Scale obviously, but It also isn't as restrictive movepool wise as Multiscale, which I think is pretty nice! Most of all for these two abilities though, is that I think they are the closest we have to abilities that offer mid game risk due to their KO avoiding properties, and thats something we just don't have with Weak Armor and Illusion!

Flare Boost and Toxic Boost
Kind of Risk this ability could help us explore: Long term risk, and the risk of pissing off bugmaniacbob!

YEAH YEAH I KNOW, YOU PROBABLY AREN'T GOING TO SLATE THIS, but hear me out at least! When it comes to looking for an ability with long term risk, I can't think of any as good as these too. Notice that I didn't mention guts btw: The reason for that is because I want to make sure that these abilities encourage the use of an orb. Now I know what many of you are thinking "BUT BUGMANIACBOB SAID HE DIDNT WANT A GLASS CANNON" or "BUT ORBS SUCK ON SR WEAK POKEMON". Now first of all, I think the latter can be patched up with stats and ability. Secondly, I think a Pokemon that's a glass canon depending on the ability gives us some very interesting questions to learn the answer to! The biggest question I have in mind is "What kind of risks do players prefer? Do they prefer to risk the Pokemon's lifespan with the reward of a large amount of immediate wall punching power? Or do they prefer risking switch-ins to raise their speed and beat scarfers near the end game? Or finally, does the player prefer to play mind tricks with the opponent instead of outright sweeping?" Yeah I know that just describes the kind of risks each of these abilities are, but thats the point: The relationship of having these 3 abilities between each other is that we can learn what kind of risks players prefer to take!

So yeah there ya have it, my sleepy thoughts on the third ability for this cap!

 

[Mari]

I propose Anger Point.

Sure, it may be one of the less competitive abilities at the first view, crits are rare and moves like Frost Breath never used.

But if it is played right and a little luck is involved, this ability can be overwhelming.

For example with SubSalac you could create a "better Belly Drum", which also increases your speed and protects against status-inflicting moves - but perhaps you don't take a crit ...

If CAP4 had good defensive stats (which is oblivious with Weak Armour), Substitute may take some non-crits, however.

Anger Point, in conclusion, would be a slightly better alternative to No Competitive Ability. Let's give it a try.

100th post

 

[meteor64]

So no love for Motor Drive? Noone else has mentioned anything. I don't see whats wrong with it... it creates a lot of risky situations for both sides, with the benefit being the same goal as Weak Armor, whilst not being superior or inferior. As for achieving a balance between itself and Illusion- you lose an overall paralysis immunity and the potential to sweep with a speed boost to gain the ability to completely pull the wool over your opponents eyes and score a crucial KO- both abilities are tied with their own risks- Illusion can be rendered ultimately useless once damage has been dealt, while Motor Drive has to predict EXACTLY an electric move to get its boost- predict wrong and its game over for our bug. And can you run the same sorts of sets with both abilities? Of course- however, the weay they would play would be different- Illusion would work as probably the wiliest and riskiest wallbreaker OU has to offer, whereas Motor Drive would run almost exactly the same as our Weak Armor sets, which, as I've stated, both have their own benefits and drawbacks.

As far is I'm concerned, "Triality" is achieved.

 

[Mari]

Motor Drive or Sap Sipper really sound nice. While Motor Drive protects against paralyzing moves and increases the Speed, Sap Sipper protects against some sleep-inflicting moves and Leech Seed and raises the Attack stat. Motor Drive, however would give CAP4 another immunity - even if it doesn't have it noone would attack it with an Electric move (see Heatproof Bronzong and Ground moves). Sap Sipper's Grass immunity has less meaning, because CAP4 already resists Grass moves. However Sap Sipper increases the Attack Stat and not the Speed, Grass moves are seldom (maybe Ferro's Power Whip: Amoon's Spore or Saur's Solar Beam). If Sap Sipper would increase the Speed instead of the Attack stat, i would prefer Sap Sipper over Motor Drive.

 

[jagged_angel]

Only if somebody actually makes a good argument for something else. ....No Guard now forms compelling dualities with both current abilities, with Weak Armor in terms of their relationship in trading bulkiness for sweepiness and with Illusion in terms of their opposite approaches to examining prediction-based risk...Right now, I think that bmb's slate look exactly as it should, though I would be interested to hear better arguments for Multi-Scale, specifically with regards to its relationship to both of our existing abilities.

I don't actually think I've seen any good argument for No Guard synergising well with the other two Abilities. It just happens to be BMB's clear favourite.

Any Ability that gives a boost to attacks while not dropping defence has the same relationship with Weak Armour "in terms of their relationship in trading bulkiness for sweepiness" - the exact same thing could be said for Moxie, for example. It provides a situational Attack boost instead of a situational Speed boost, asking the player to choose wisely which type of boost will be better for their CAP on their team. I am sorry I didn't fully explain why Moxie synergises well with Weak Armour before, I thought it was patently obvious given all the discussion in the Secondary Ability thread about having a choice between Attack boosts or Speed boosts. That both Abilities are situational, but for different situations, is the icing on the cake of their complementarity.

Multiscale has a different variation on this relationship, increasing bulk instead of decreasing it (and therefore giving CAP4 more chance to sweep.)

Flare Boost has a third variation on the 'trading bulkiness for sweepiness' interaction with Weak Armour: It doesn't reduce bulk but it reduces HP (through Burn) in order to increase sweeping ability, so you forego the chance for a speed boost from Weak Armour in exchange for being in control of your own boost, and accepting the risk imposed by the countdown timer from the Burn. You also have the potential for interesting and risky predictions given from Trick and Psycho Shift that could make or break the match for you.

So, all 3 of the above Abilities complement Weak Armour and should be slated. I won't expand on Multiscale as I find it the least interesting and other people are discussing it plenty.

Now, you also say that:

....No Guard now forms compelling dualities with .... with Illusion in terms of their opposite approaches to examining prediction-based risk...

This is a pretty ill-formed and vague statement so I am not really sure what you mean, Illusion is so completely different from any other Ability that it's pretty impossible to say it is the opposite approach of anything. Anyway, Illusion is as you say, all about prediction-based risk. The prediction is mainly on the opponent as they have to decide how to respond to the possibly disguised pokemon, in this way, Illusion is a fairly safe Ability to use. I have already written at length about how No Guard is even safer (to the point of being a boring choice) and if you re-read Theorymon's advocacy of No Guard you'll see (s)he's also saying No Guard is very safe and reliable.

The main reason I'm interested in no guard now is because its interaction with CAP 4's movepool will actually give more risk to Illusion.... Are you willing to give up reliable coverage to play mind tricks or get the speed to destroy common Choice Scarfers, or is No Guard just THAT reliable? I think this could help us learn more, is there a risk with so much payoff that its worth the consequences, or is the safe option the option players are always going to gravitate to regardless of the massive pay offs of the risk?

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but we Don't Want to give CAP4 another safe Ability. Illusion is already a safe-enough option for those that deem Weak Armour too risky. No Guard is the epitome of safe Abilities, basically guaranteeing that neither you nor the opponent can lose because of miss-hax. Theorymon's point was that it would be interesting to see which people want more - quite reliable Illusion, or super reliable No Guard. This is not an interesting opportunity to learn something people. If we as a community decide we Want to give CAP4 a competitive third Ability, it should be risky as hell!

For me, Flare Boost is the riskiest of the options and you only have to read Deck Knight's posts to see why. Now, does it synergise with Illusion? As much as anything can - you give yourself a guaranteed advantage (SpA boost, chance to Trick or Psycho Shift the Burn to cripple Scizor etc.) for a guaranteed risk (HP loss). Illusion's benefit and risk are entirely dependent on the guessing game between player and opponent, and clever play with entry hazards/weather.

In this way, you choose your Ability depending on whether you whether you want to be in control of the risk/reward (Flare Boost), whether you want the opponent to have to do most of the risky predicting (Illusion) or whether you want a middle ground (Weak Armour). This nice interaction is the case for Flare Boost and for any other risky Ability where you are self-imposing the risk and reward by choosing it.

Moxie is also risky for the user in a different way to Illusion. Illusion's effect is immediately activated for the CAP4 user - apart from getting rid of hazards etc that would betray the disguise, you don't have to do anything to set it up. Illusion makes CAP4 a great early-game pokemon that must use boosting moves in order to be able to sweep, but you don't need any effort to make Illusion useful. The opposite is true for Moxie, anyone who uses Heracross in UU will know that Moxie makes for a great late-game sweeper which doesn't need boosting moves, but the player must work to get rid of Bug/Fighting resists, eliminate revenge killers and reduce the opponents' health enough to have a chance for a Moxie sweep. I really like how Moxie encourages almost the total opposite team role to Illusion and in this way, they've a high degree of complementarity.

Once again, I CBA to argue for Multiscale's synergy with the other Abilities.

TLDR: Flare Boost and Moxie are popular, fulfill the concept more than No Guard, and synergise well with Weak Armour/Illusion. They provide opportunities to explore different kinds of risk and for CAP4 to fulfill different team roles. Please slate/vote for them.

 

[Sulticune]

Since NCA seems to be out of the question, I'm liking the idea of Flare Boost

 

[CiteAndPrune]

I agree with jagged_angel's support for Moxie, Multiscale, and Flare Boost. I won't repeat his reasons as they should be clear enough.

Instead I want to say something about this 'duality-triality' relationship that AR brought up: that's not what CAP is about. What should be first in our minds is how each ability relates to the concept we're working with. Arbitrarily bringing that up and making it a condition abilities must fulfill is not helping us do justice to the concept. If we wanted a sweet triality we could just go ahead right from the start with Storm Drain / Lightningrod / Flash Fire to have three immunities and make enemies guess which one it is, or go Guts / Marvel Scale / Quick Feet to benefit from status in three different ways. But that's not the point - and we're losing sight of our goal if we go down that route.

The reasoning behind No Guard's wonderful 'triality' may look pretty to you, but it's not convincing everyone as you imply, since people are still speaking against it. If people oppose No Guard it's most likely because they have a good reason to do so - even if you dismiss it or pretend to not understand it.

Arguments for No Guard were repeated over and over. I still haven't found one convincing reason why riskimon should have No Guard. Illusion is already far safer than Weak Armor because it has no Def -1 drawback.

That's not even to mention that No Guard outclasses Weak Armor outright; there were abilities disqualified because of that, including Simple after Weak Armor won, which would've made it redundant. The same should've happened to No Guard - its benefits are well known and any mon with this ability and the moves to abuse it with, will do so. We don't need CAP to repeat that old lesson.


I'm not that eager to select NCA/NTA in the poll, but if that'll be the only option other than No Guard, then I'll vote so. If NCA isn't slated at all, then whatever ability makes it (unless something crazy like Huge Power or Imposter out of the nowhere) will get my vote.

I know in the end I'm just one voice in the crowd... but if enough people think like me and the No Guard supporters are a minority, then No Guard will lose for the third time. It's that simple. And if I'm right in thinking that Illusion won because some people chose it as the lesser evil compared to No Guard... well. Then it'll have an uphill battle, so to speak.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Well. Bugmaniacbob already stated for no custom abilities / Flare Boost / Guts etc. So I'm gonna root for NCA. I think the other abilities are good enough and playing safe would be an option for some players and the NCA would help.

 

[paintseagull]

I think Korski and Theorymon have made some really good points here. Having three abilities on CAP4 adds another dimension to each of them, potentially furthering our risk and hopefully enhancing our reward if played correctly. This also allows different players to choose their preferred strategy (and later for us to determine which is the most effective overall and most fitting to the concept).

I think some folks are forgetting that resolving the debates we have during these stages of the process are part of the point of CAP -- if 50% of us think No Guard is a bad choice and 50% think it's a great choice, isn't that just a reason to put it on CAP4? That way we can learn and reflect on our misconceptions during this speculative stage.

One thing I am wondering is if we end up with three abilities that are too different from each other (and especially considering one of them is Illusion), will the advantage gained from the indecision of the opponent as he/she tries to figure out what set we're running overshadow our risk/reward tactics?

 

[Bughouse]

Paintseagull, by that logic, If 50% think that a coin will be heads and 50% think it will be tails, we should just assume decide before flipping it that it will be heads, that way we can see who was right? While coin-flipping hardly is the best analogy it's all I could think of right now. I'm just trying to show that it is possibly the most flawed argument I have ever seen.

Meanwhile that's not even a relevant comparison, as it's not 50%. Count the number of people advocating NCA/NTA.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Right, I'm locking this. When influential people begin suggesting things like Hustle, I honestly don't know how many people in this thread are trolling or not. I wanted this thread to be a bit more lighthearted, and I'm not certain that it's working. So, I'll make my thoughts clear before the polls go up.

I honestly don't know if people are deliberately ignoring me or simply haven't had time to read my posts, but know that I am annoyed when people bring up posts that were made in the previous thread, without even acknowledging my thoughts on the same matter, or simply believing that I am supposed to treat those words as gospel. I did read those posts, and I ignored them because frankly, their arguments were greatly flawed at best. So repeating them is, if anything, more likely to make me ignore your points - almost as much as the blatant appeals to popularity that have been flying around everywhere. I will say it for those of you who don't get it: popularity is not an argument.

I feel obliged to repeat my remarks that I made before. If Colossoil and Krilowatt taught us anything at all, it's that haphazardly slapping abilities on that could be used for one function, pertinent to the concept, does not mean they will be used in that way. Flare Boost could have a trillion applications or just one, but it comes down to the same thing - by selecting it we adopt the mindset that the timer-tornado is a valid path to walk for this CAP. That is not something I can accept. Moxie works, true, but the stat spreads are already thoroughly bound up by so many considerations - adding yet another one, so strong as Moxie, introduces more problems than it solves. From a process standpoint I can't justify its inclusion. As for Multiscale and Sturdy... I liked them to begin with, but I fear I may have underestimated the strength of a guaranteed turn, or guaranteed switch-in, with relative safety. As such, I have decided that none of these abilities deserve inclusion on the slate, but I thank all of you who debated and argued for them.

If you're still ignoring - or even not responding to - arguments for No Guard, then I'm not sure what I can say. Most of the posts I have seen (not all) have consisted purely of "I don't like No Guard and here's why". And that's fine, but it'd be nice if you addressed the arguments of others as well. Now look - No Guard is solely a prior-battle risky ability. The risk is in choosing No Guard - in effect, to remove the uncertainty factor from the game. If you do not think that that is risky - to my mind, it is, in a far deeper manner to that which those supporters of Flare Boost seem to be fixated upon - then I can't see anything I can say that will help. The choice to remove uncertainty is one which affects both teams, for the entirety of the time that CAP4 is out - while Illusion is most effective at the beginning, and Weak Armour at the end, No Guard's risk is perpetual. Why is No Guard's uncertainty-removal any different to that of any other abilities you are certainly itching to name? Because No Guard only removes the uncertainty that is outside the player's control, and no more. Certainly, those of you who believe that risk is solely defined by player-player interactions within the game itself will fail to understand this argument, and I'm sorry for that. There is nothing else to be said. I could go on to other arguments - that No Guard's effective power-boost as an ability also extends to support moves, for example - but I feel my words would be wasted.

Oh, I forgot the ludicrous argument that No Guard is inherently overpowered on anything it touches. I'm not sure if you've heard of Golurk, but it has Dynamicpunch and Stone Edge and yet, as far as the OU analysis is concerned, Iron Fist is the ability of choice. This CAP will not receive anything even remotely close to the strength of Dynamicpunch if No Guard is chosen. That is my final word on the matter. Furthermore, Guts wasn't exactly uncommon on Machamp in DPP either - it is almost certain that Weak Armour and Illusion will easily justify their use over it.

Finally, a word on "triality". I took this to mean that every ability would see use on similar sets, with its own technical, inherent advantages. Flare Boost is best used on a set with Flame Orb - you cannot have a Flare Boost Abuse set with Weak Armour. It does not satisfy my criteria for triality. No Guard, Weak Armour and Illusion can all theoretically be used on a similar set, for better or for worse. At the same time, any arbitrary ability does not satisfy the criteria because they do not necessarily change the way that one would play the similar set. If you don't understand my meaning of triality I encourage you to discard it - it was meant to simplify things, but if it is complicating things instead it is best to do away with it.

With all that said, here is the slate for CAP4's Tertiary Ability.

No Guard
No Competitive Ability

I haven't changed anything from last time. If I had desperately wanted No Guard, or possibly been a less scrupulous person, I may have run No Guard against something that could never win, such as Mummy. But I do believe that you have a right to vote for no ability at all if you wish - and that as one who believes that I must do what is best for the Project and the Community, I should not slate something I would not want - so as No Guard is the only ability that, to my mind, currently satisfies everything I am looking for, it is the one to be voted upon.

Please keep this in mind when you inevitably complain in the voting thread. At any rate, I will know who did and didn't read this post.

Poll will be up shortly.