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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 5 - Stat Limits Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Oct 6, 2012.

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  1. viashinomage

    viashinomage

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    here's my opinions on CAP 4s defenses, seeing how that's all we're debating since we're mostly all in agreeance with it being a very good mixed sweeper. it's inherent weaknesses are too rock, fire, flying, bug, ghost, dark. all of them have very reliable common/semi-common physical stabs in stone edge, flare blitz, brave bird, x-scissors/u-turn, shadow punch/shadow sneak (ok I lied about ghosts, so sue me), and crunch. while specially they're not as common. one I'd especially like to focus on is stone edge. Terrakion is a premire user of stone edge that takes a stab and a high base attack. I think it would be a folly if we were to build CAP4 to die from an unboosted stone edge from terrakion. Now this means that if Max ATK Terrakion hits it without a SD, LO, or CBand boost that our pokemon, while it's at max hp, should have the means to survive with at least 1 hp. Whether are poke has to be a complete physical tank (I hope not) or theres just some random 36hp/76def rubbish or it comes built in can and has to be decided later, But Surviving that Stone Edge is what we should strive for. Now specially defensive the threats are probably more common in flying, fire and ghosts but those attacks are not nearly as prominant so i think we can risk it there.
    which is why i agree with
  2. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

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    The stat spread I'm currently tinkering with has the following stat limits:

    Physical Tankiness (PT): Amazing
    Special Tankiness (ST): Horrible
    Physical Sweepiness (PS): Excellent
    Special Sweepiness (SS): Excellent
    Base Stat Rating (BSR): Excellent

    Now I know my stat spread submission is bordering taboo, but please hear me out:

    On Tankiness: One of the things I noticed about most CAP creations is that they all tend to be bulky. Sure, one defensive stat is higher than the other, but rarely is the disparity that big. This makes most CAP "safe" defensively in that they could sufficiently take relatively weak physical or special attacks. I'd say that we should explore another facet of Pokemon stats found in the game, and that is in focusing only on one defensive stat and completely trashing the other. This can be seen in Pokemon such as Blissey, Cryogonal and Cloyster. Making the defenses completely one sided makes it a clear-cut reward vs. risk scenario. CAP4 can theoretically take any physical hit with ease (which helps out in activating Weak Armour), but is completely decimated by any special attack. If one uses illusion to disguise as a special wall/tank, then most likely it won't be targeted by those moves. For example, if you manage to disguise as a Blissey against a special sweeper, the opponent may switch into a physical attacker, giving you both advantage and momentum. And No Guard makes Hurricane and Fire Blast all the more a riskier prospect.

    On Sweepiness: I went through the list of Pokemon moves, and I noticed that there really aren't that many "risky" Psychic or Bug moves. No, the risky moves are of other types, and they are all characterized by high base powers (I won't list them down as that would be poll-jumping, but I'm sure you know what they are). So really, my vision for CAP 4 is for it to forgo its STAB moves and make use of these high-powered risky moves instead. |In fact, in the movepool I envision, it doesn't get any relaible STAB attack moves, forcing it to use these risky moves. Due to the lack of STAB, it's important that CAP4 must have very high Attack and Special Attack, which these limits allow. I bet it could be lowered to Very Good once I'm finally settled with my Speed stat, but for now that's that.

    And yeah, for this CAP, I'm all out on having an Excellent BSR.
    Shy Glizzy likes this.
  3. Mari

    Mari

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    I cannot understand why make CAP4 a mixed sweeper - Psychic and PSchock both depend on Special Attack - so it would be a safe option to play CAP4 as a Special sweeper. Since we don't want such safe options I propose PS>SS. It is much riskier to play either a special OR a physical set than e.g. a max SpAtk Psychic/PShock/BBuzz/[HP Water/Electroweb] set ...
  4. meteor64

    meteor64

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    Because we decided a few threads back that we wanted this CAP to threaten everything, and the best way to do that is to give it mixed capabilities. Psyshock alone does not give a pokemon the ability to do that, and without the ability to go specially offensive we cant really threaten things like Skarmory, Forretress, or even Scizor without some strange movepool choices, which would be polljumping at its finest on our part.
  5. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
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    The Bug/Psychic typing is not a defensive typing, plain and simple; it is weak to SR, hit by Spikes and TSpikes, weak to both U-turn and Pursuit, and damaged by Sand, Hail, and Life Orb, including status. It must shove its way into the match through a tiny window of Fighting, Ground, Grass, and Psychic resistances without accidentally stumbling into a Bug, Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Rock, or strong neutral Attack or Special Attack (or switching into too many hazards), things that can only be accomplished simultaneously by superior prediction. In fact, I can't think of a single common Scarfer that doesn't have at least one SE move for our CAP or at least good enough SpA to cleanly wipe it out with CAP's merely Above Average/Good ST, especially considering SR. More to the point, CAP has a primary Ability that makes its defensive capabilities worse and its offensive capabilities better. Oh wait, never mind, ALL THREE of CAP's Abilities make its defensive capabilities worse and its offensive capabilities better. On the offense, at least Bug/Psychic gets decent neutral coverage with its STABs, lukewarm SE coverage between them, poor BP/Accuracy on relevant moves, and a fairly substantial reliance on coverage to get past its checks in the late-game. Based on all this I can literally find no good reason to give this Pokemon high Tankiness at all, especially not higher than either Sweepiness; the only arguments I've seen really have been either "what BMB said" with no further explanation (BMB's original idea was 130/125/80/125/70/70 btw so let's all submit 600 BST mons) or otherwise a semi-agreement based on some wild desire to survive every physical attack that comes our way, even at -1 Def in some cases.

    Question: Are there any relevant calculations regarding what CAP can and can't survive at -1 Def?
    Answer: No.

    We should not coddle Weak Armor to the point where it is the only way to defend ourselves against the all-too-popular 100+ Spe Pokes that infest OU (many of whom are Scarfed). Weak Armor is intended to be used once to facilitate a sweep. That's +1 Spe, only. You could argue for days weather Crobat or Rhyperior would be the stronger Weak Armor abuser, but what everyone should agree on is that between -1 Def and average/good ST, this Poke will most of the time be KO'd by the second move that hits it. The reward here is never having to face that second attack. In-between the first hit and the second is where the reward comes into play: you get a free turn for switching in your Poke well, so you can KO your opponent by outspeeding it, or you can boost up on a predicted switch and sweep, avoiding that second hit via smart playing. I don't care how many stats you throw into HP and Def, but if you have Defense enough to take a couple of attacks but don't have the Speed to outrun key, dedicated revenge-killers at +1, then I don't think there's any reward for that risk. If anything, trading Excellent PT and bad Speed for a +1 Spe boost and bad PT is not a Risk/Reward scenario; it's simply an exchange of stats, a net zero for our Poke and an unhelpful approach to a metagame already chock-full of Scarf Genesect and Terrakion and Salamence and Latios who literally will not give any shits at all when they come in to finish CAP off, even if it did manage to get a Spe boost previously. That is all for Weak Armor and stats: our CAP needs Tankiness enough to survive particular physical (ideally resisted) attacks and then, more importantly, the offenses and movepool enough to capitalize on the boost. I wouldn't call it daring to make CAP's best attribute the same one we are planning on lowering with Weak Armor, nor would I call it daring to make a slow physical tank abuse Illusion in a worthwhile way while being weak to SR, U-turn, and Pursuit and affected by grounded hazards. I would call that a reversal of the direction we've been heading this whole time.

    Anyway, I propose these limits:

    PT: Very Good (150-70)
    ST: Good (120-40)
    PS: Excellent (175-95)
    SS: Excellent (175-95)
    BSR: Excellent (340-70)

    I have played around with the BSR spreadsheet a few times before and I know that these ranges can produce redeemable results for our concept. PT does not need to be out of this world like others have suggested; CAP's resistances usually lie on the physical side, so beefing up that end of the spectrum is a good idea as its value can spread to every CAP build, not just Weak Armor ones. ST has been rightly labeled as CAP's soft-spot; I see no reason to waste too much energy on it beyond taking specific damage from defensive Scalds and other annoying attacks. Where I differ from everyone else except capefeather I think is that we need some legitimate offense to offer in conjunction with low-BAP STABs, high-BAP non-STAB No Guard coverage moves, and very limited setup time, regardless of Ability. Very Good is just not going to cut it here in terms of Sweepiness, especially with the charge of offering usable mixed offenses and not-dreadful Speed and noticeable physical bulk. The BSR I've suggested caps at about 10 points below the 100/100/100/100/100/100 pixie spread (look at what tier Mew, Shaymin and Victini are in and decide if these limits are too extravagant), and since those folks share many of the limitations of our own CAP's typing, they'll be direct competition for moveslots right off the bat. Along that same vein (trying to cover redundancies among our CAP and the rest of the metagame), my suggested PS and SS are roughly 10-15 points higher than the pixies while PT is just a bit lower and ST is a full 30 points down. I feel like this is an appropriate way to look at how to move forward:

    I say if we're going to go for a reward, let's go for the KO, not the cool trick with the sporadic Weak Armor boosts or Blissey Illusion. We want an either-or offensive Pokemon with above-average bulk (for an offensive Poke) to make up for its lack of resistances, that is all. We have a CAP that is in no way suited for taking hits, which is why we have the typing and Abilities we have, all of it. Why waste time beefing up defenses when we actually only want this thing to take one hit before its plan can be revealed (the one hit will activate Weak Armor if its physical, it will unveil the Illusion, and it is guaranteed to hit every time with No Guard)?
  6. scorpdestroyer

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    Well, since CAP4 was made to be a high risk high return guy, I would suggest these:

    PT: Poor
    PS: Fantastic
    ST: Below Average
    SS: Very Good
    BSR: Excellent
  7. bugmaniacbob

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    Oh look. Conflicting points of view. Looks like we may get some interesting discussion out of this stage after all.

    Ok to save time I'll just go over the various categories in order of importance:

    PT: Right, this one seems to be the most, ahem, controversial, I suppose. I'll reaffirm what I said before - I don't want this to turn into a glass cannon, and to be honest, at this point any attempt to make it so will likely spell failure, given the Stealth Rock weakness, Pursuit weakness, U-turn weakness... et ceteri. So I find myself attracted to the idea of, at least, being able to switch in relatively comfortably on neutral hits on at least one side. This is true of everything, not just Weak Armour - though in that creature's case, it's worth having the capability to actually take a physical hit to make the ability worth while. Note that this doesn't mean "make it a physical wall", it means "make it actually capable of switching into physical attacks given Stealth Rock". I am not convinced that Very Good is sufficient for this purpose, especially as it pertains to important moves such as Pursuit and U-turn. Thus I choose to use CB Scizor as the token measuring stick - an Excellent PT, at its maximum efficacy, allows for taking Bullet Punch and Pursuit (if you don't switch out) in relative comfort, while U-turn is always a guaranteed OHKO. To be honest I consider this essential. The only occasion I would consider Very Good PT is if we also had a Good ST rather than above average, so there is less reason to compensate - unfortunately that is outside my power in this thread to specify.

    Oh and do note that "Below Average" for PT basically means "Gengar", for those of you wanting a low PT.

    ST: Everyone seems in agreement that ST should be the weak spot - or at least, all of those who didn't think that PT should be minimised. I don't think there's much to be said on this issue except that if PT is Excellent, ST ought to be Above Average, and if PT is Very Good, ST ought to be Good to compensate - but that's up to the stat spread creators, not myself.

    PS/SS/BSR: Lumping these together because the arguments revolving around them seem to be linked, more so than for the other two. Very Good PS/SS/BSR is perfectly fine for those who prefer lower Speed, but the way that the formulae are structured means that increasing Speed has a marked effect on these values - such that it is difficult to achieve a high Speed stat while retaining the capacity to hurt anything, which ruins the concept of the switch-based prediction game. Which is all very annoying. On the other hand, there are those who want a lower base Speed - which requires Uber-like levels of attacking stats to get it close to excellent. The same is true of BSR.

    As such, we are left with a rather alarmingly wide range of strict limits:

    150 < PT < 200
    100 < ST < 150
    150 < PS < 200
    150 < SS < 200

    300 < BSR < 400


    Well, anyway. These limits I feel are a little too lax, so I limited them a bit.

    160 < PT < 200
    100 < ST < 140
    150-160 < PS < 190-200?
    150-160 < SS < 190-200?

    340 < BSR < 390


    Thus, the following custom limits, which should, I hope, satisfy everybody. One of the big problems with doing a CAP such as this one are that there are so many ways to achieve the same basic aims, which means that having the limits too strict will eliminate one or the other.

    Hopefully the BSR limit given will prevent any abuse of the generous limits. I'd need to play around with the calculator a bit before I can make sure though.

    EDIT: Ugh I had 160-190 in both PS and SS then changed it to 200 then back again

    Need more opinions on PS and SS now. They seem very dubious the way I currently have them set up.

    EDIT2: Yeah and on the minimum too
  8. Deck Knight

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    So I've also been playing with BSR and I've arrived at the parameters for two spreads I like:

    Higher Speed:
    PT: Very Good
    ST: Poor
    PS: Excellent
    SS: Excellent
    BSR: Excellent (340-70)

    Lower Speed:
    PT: Very Good
    ST: Poor
    PS: Excellent
    SS: Very Good
    BSR: Very Good (310-40)

    Basically I max out at Very Good's limit on PT and work around the rest. I think either would be fine, but I would want to test them out later and see what people think, obviously. I'll need to tweak a bit since my SS is below the lower end of the parameter, but it shouldn't be too difficult. I'll work around the new ratings when I get back, but I have a good baseline.
  9. ShinyDreamer

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    I don't have a statspread suggestion, but I do have an opinion:

    Ever since I started looking at abilities that require the opponent hitting the owner for them to activate (Static, Flame Body, Poison Point, Rough Skin), I was increasingly more astonished at how many of those Pokemon were fragile. How did Gamefreak think Sharpedo would survive in battle long enough to abuse the extra damage he's giving? And what about Pikachu - Lightningrod is probably the best thing that's ever happened to him.
    Anyway, seeing those poor Pokemon with lousy defenses for their abilities made me think that if I were creating a Pokemon with an ability that requires taking a hit, I would give it at least the minimum amount of PT to survive a few hits from common moves in whatever tier it's in...and then ST that is either slightly higher or epically higher, thereby making the physical attacks more viable for the opponent because they would do more damage. You know...bait the physical moves a bit because you have this ability that can bite back on the physical spectrum, while still having enough physical power to survive at least one 2x physical (whatever the strongest of those is in the tier we're aiming for).

    For Weak Armour, we would also want speed that would benefit from the boost; depending on how many hits we want this bug taking, something that goes from just below viable to useful with just one WA boost, or up to something that needs every hit it can take from WA to be fast enough. Am I making any sense?
  10. jas61292

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    Woah, hold on there a second bmb. While I have no problem with the defenses or BSR the way you have them, for the offenses that range is simply way too high at its minimum point. Requiring 160 is the same as requiring either high speed or absurd offenses, neither of which is something that I believe this CAP needs. For example, one of the speeds I have been intently looking into is 65 for the key things it outspeeds at +1. I believe slower speeds like this are key to making Weak Armor not be outclassed by the other two. However, with a speed of 65, we would need the absolutely obscene offenses of 141/137 to even crack the very bottom of your 160 limit. Even at the more lax 150 limit, that would still cause what I consider a reasonable speed to be forced into at least 132/127 offenses, which seems incredibly unnecessary. At the same time, I believe that granting this thing 100 speed and nearly 120 offenses on both sides (the upper limits of the range) is way more power and speed than we would want together on this Pokemon. Maybe some people disagree, but with the current limits, you are really forced to choose a ton of speed or power in order to even make the range.

    I feel something more like 130-190 would be a much more reasonable range to choose from. It allows lower speeds without requiring utterly obscene power, and limits fast spreads to from being too ridiculous, in my opinion. While I care less about the upper limit, I feel significantly lowering the lower end to at least 130 is absolutely necessary unless we are 100% convinced that CAP4 needs good speed, which I believe would only serve to make Weak Armor and outclassed ability.
  11. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    I fail to see how a low speed and high offensive stats would necessarily be a bad thing. Consider that even if it gets to +1 speed, it still needs to have the offensive stats to make the risk worth it, probably without further setup. Additionally, a slow Illusion or No Guard set would need to hit hard to make it offensive enough to be a threat if played correctly. While risk is important here, so is reward. If only to keep Weak Armor relatively viable and slower bulky sets poweful enough to be threatening, I do not think that lowering the limits is entirely desirable.
  12. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    Sweepiness limits of 190 disallow builds like Voodoom's and Yanmega's, which I don't think should be considered "ridiculous", especially considering both are balanced at best. In fact, Latias has "Fantastic" SS and so does Jolteon; the latter is pretty much a glass cannon while the former is weak to U-turn and Pursuit and has Dragon STAB. I'm not convinced, then, that "ridiculous" would apply to ~200 Sweepiness ratings on a Pokémon with more problems than Latias, potentially the same level of difficulty as Jolteon, and certainly more issues than Voodoom.

    It's also worth noting that the September stats show Choice Scarf Genesect having more usage than all Latios combined. Basically, that set alone is in the top 15 O.o
  13. meteor64

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    I'm perfectly fine with the limits imposed. I've actually been working with 89 Speed, which isn't exactly a great speed tier at first glance, but with +1 it allows you to outspeed neutral 252 base 110s with no investment at all, allowing us to dedicate EVs into hitting hard from a mixed perspective. Additionally, base 89 essentially guarantees we outspeed any wall to let us threaten it, with the exceptions of Deo-D (who our CAPmon should sufficiently threaten anyway) and Gliscor, yet leaves us vulnerable to a whole host of offensively inclined threats, almost too many to list. I've ultimately decided from this that 89 is as fast as I'd be willing to go, and 71 as the slowest. So I have made spreads for both extremes.
    Base 89-
    PT- Excellent (170-190)
    ST- Above Average (100-110)
    PS- Excellent (190-200)
    SS- Excellent (190-200)
    BSR- Excellent (370- 390)

    Both PS and SS feature attacking stats under 130 in that spread. As for 71 Speed-

    PT- Excellent (170-190)
    ST- Above Average (105-120)
    PS- Very Good-Excellent (160-180)
    SS- Excellent (180-190)
    BSR- Excellent (350-360)
  14. uwnim

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    I agree with what jas61292 is saying. Having 160 as the minimum for PS and SS really limits our options because of how much speed affects it.
  15. jas61292

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    To clarify for capefeather, I have less of a problem with the top of the limit spreads like the ones you provided, even if I personally am not a fan of them. The problem I have is, like uwnim says above, the fact that it forces either good speed or insane offenses. I personally don't think we want good speed. In my opinion, the speed needs to be low enough that people actually want the boost from Weak Armor. However, with the current limits, anything that doesn't have good speed must have ridiculously high offenses, to the extent that it is just not fitting. The amount that speed effects sweepieness really means that they need a wider range, not a narrower one.
  16. CiteAndPrune

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    It's like jas says, the lower speed spreads would have difficulty making the poll at all. And the lower the Speed of CAP4 the more valuable Weak Armor will become for its +1 Speed boost (up to a point, of course, beyond which +1 Speed just isn't enough) and give No Guard and Illusion stiff competition, or make them run different sets (perhaps with Substitute to get around the low speed problem). I don't think proposing wider limits on PS and SS is inappropriate in this case, if it give more opportunities for spreads that truly differ in stats to appear: the extra variety is good and we can always select a narrower group in the next stage.
  17. bugmaniacbob

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    Ugh. See my previous post for various edits charting my indecision.

    Anyway, we have two camps expressing different but entirely reasonable approaches towards the same ends. Which is annoying, because I have no reason to prefer either one over the other, as I believe both are legitimate, and I can't exactly put it up to a vote either (or, I can indirectly...). Which leaves me in a difficult situation. There's one camp that advocates the fast approach, which is limited by the 190 cap to 110/100 or similar, which is... ok but not great. On the other hand, those who advocate a slow approach are forced into high offensive stats to meet the 160 minimum... not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but I'm aware that some people want to place a high disparity between PS and SS. This isn't necessarily something I agree with, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

    Anyway... here are some updated limits. I've kept PS at 150 as I think that should really be the very bare minimum, but I've also dropped SS to 140 to accomodate the above line of thinking. I've also decided to push PS and SS maxima up to 200, which allows our 110/100 to jump up to... 115/100... which I really don't think is that unreasonable (give or take the odd 2 points or so). Finally, in view of these changes I have raised the absolute maximum BSR to 400, with the view that more wiggle room is helpful to enable sufficient bulk (I feel we can afford this, as I will be ironing out overly strong stat spreads regardless).

    160 < PT < 200
    100 < ST < 140
    150 < PS < 200
    140 < SS < 200

    340 < BSR < 400


    On playing with the stat calc a little more, I've found that possibly SS can be lowered to a minimum of 130 without overly impacting on the Pokemon's performance, but I'm still not sure. Any opinions here are appreciated.

    On another note, I'll be closing this in a relatively short space of time. Probably after dinner. That gives you about 3 hours, but I'll say 4 hours for the Americans who haven't got home yet.
  18. Deck Knight

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    The easiest thing to do on Sweepiness would be to make the limits inclusive from the bottom of Good (125) to the top of Fantastic (225).

    Examples at the bottom of Good would be 138 Atk and 130 SpA with 50 Spe, which hits 125 on the BSR, and 116 Atk and 110 SpA with 60 Spe (Hits 125), and its 100 Atk and 95 SpA with 70 Spe. The first is probably too slow to be of use with Weak Armor, but it gives you an idea of the lower limit on power. If you want to make it a rounder number, go with 130. I really don't think we want to go any weaker than Good to fulfill the purpose of this CAP.
  19. srk1214

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    Played around with stat spreads for a bit, and I much more support a BSR of Excellent. Without it, actually, CAP4 is just going to be outclassed by a very wide range of things depending on what it wants to do. I honestly can't even see it getting used without having Pseudo-legendary 600 BST (or close), though of course I'm looking forward to seeing submissions more creative than mine.
  20. pekka1995

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    I am happy with our current stat limits but if I would change anything I feel like the ST could have its minimum a bit lower, like 90 or something. Othervise I feel like it's a good spread and I'm looking forward to the statspread submissions
  21. bugmaniacbob

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    Closing time.

    We'll use these, I think:

    160 < PT < 200
    100 < ST < 140
    150 < PS < 200
    140 < SS < 200

    330 < BSR < 400


    And now, the stat spreads. I can barely contain my excitement.
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