1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 15 CAP 4 - Playtest [Done! See Post #71]

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    298
    The playtest was fun, and I'm sure we learned a lot. For me, Aurumoth has heavily showcased the risk in the move selection process (which definitely has Four Move-Slot Syndrome). There were many times where I wish I had just one more move to choose from... It made me think. I loved it. Additionally, I think Aurumoth has really, really made is apparent of how important speed is on a Pokemon. When we were designing Aurumoth, we had triality in mind for its abilities: three equally useful abilities for entirely different playstyles. Unfortunately, it's too apparent that Illusion and No Guard made Weak Armor almost completely unused. I believe the sole reason for this is because of Aurumoth's base 94 speed, which many people thought was just right (if on the rather slow side) for Aurumoth. With access to Illusion, Dragon Dance, and Quiver Dance, Aurumoth was more than capable of in terms of removing speed issues, however. Weak Armor became obsolete when we already had those two much safer moves to choose from on a decent base speed. We've learned that as a community, we tend to underestimate Pokemon's speed. The mindset is that if a Pokemon cannot beat another certain Pokemon's base speed, regardless or not if they are checked by said other Pokemon, that it loses to them (exceptions being to specifically slow and bulky mons such as Ferrothorn and Jellicent). Hopefully the playtest has shown us that we need to be muchmore picky in regards to choosing our base speeds for our CAPs.

    tl;dr: Aurumoth has risky 4MSS and has shown how too much speed can mess up the plans for a Poke's use
  2. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,286
    Sorry this is late, just managed to get White 2 set up and, well, you know... priorities...

    First off, a very hearty congratulations to Windsong!

    This is perhaps something that can be visited after the current round of PRC topics as the vast likelihood is that whatever happens there will significantly impact upon any form of this proposal. For what it's worth, I like the idea, though it's not my place to discuss it further and anyway I'm not sure if the current process could support it...

    ---------

    Anyway, the playtest. I won't bore you for too long with what I personally think of Aurumoth's performance - suffice to say that I'm not too happy with it, but on the other hand I think it's about as good as it could have been, given the circumstances. I think it's laudable that we jumped head-first into the Genesect metagame and came up with a rather cohesive Pokemon creation. It's not, perhaps, quite what the concept asked for in terms of "A Pokemon that is very risky to play", except in that there is a rather large discrepancy between its performance in different battles... or so I found. It's not, perhaps, as risky in the traditional sense as some existing OU Pokemon, though I would take issue with those sorts of comparisons. But it does seem to do what I asked of it, in that it does take a bit more thought to use properly to make it worthwhile, and all parts of the Pokemon contribute to this, rather than it being an ordinary Pokemon using a risky strategy (which I could argue is part of the charm of Volcarona and Cloyster). I could go on, but really, I'm sure you don't really want to read through all that. Suffice to say, I myself am far more interested in the community's response than my own opinion.

    So, to start off with:

    These are the big questions that accompanied this concept at the beginning of the CAP. What do we think of them?

    If I may, I'd also like to add a few of my own:

    • Did you feel that you were able to collect wins more consistently using a single or several different sets?
    • How do you think Aurumoth affected the metagame?
    • How do you think the absence of Quiver Dance would affect this Pokemon's performance, particularly with reference to Weak Armour?

    I ask the last question because this is one thing I was really interested in learning from this CAP, in terms of how Quiver Dance affected it in terms of risk. In my own opinion, we could perhaps have learned more had we not had Quiver Dance - but then again, possibly Aurumoth would have then been rendered unusable, at least as a sweeper. Or would Dragon Dance have simply usurped the role? It's a question that doesn't lend itself to an easy answer, and as this is the one part of Aurumoth's build that still irks me, I'd love to hear what the community thinks on the topic.

    The one question I've deliberately left off is "how will it work now that Genesect is gone?". Pertinent, to be sure, but not relevant to the playtest. I can imagine that this will be a rather important question for the CAP metagame players, so I'll leave that to your overactive imaginations. For now, do concentrate on what's up above.

    EDIT: OH, one last thing: If you have any replays, any at all, do please share them with us now! I was rather enthused early on in the playtest with the idea of keeping a library record of some of the playtest battles for future reference, and as such, as many games as possible of any quality would be greatly appreciated. For my own part... I only ever saved one replay, bar the inaugural - here. It's not a great battle, but that's what I'm relying on you lot for.
  3. srk1214

    srk1214 You are people yes ou no?
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,052
  4. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    CAP Head Mod

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,725
    I'll respond to this thread in a bit more detail later (specifically answering the questions bmb posted), but I wanted to let you all know that Antar has kindly pulled the usage stats of the CAP4 Playtest for us. The thread can be found here. If you want to talk about your impressions of usage percentages, go there. If you're desiring to dig into some deeper thought and reflection, this is your thread.
  5. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,733
    I already posted why I don't believe Aurumoth is risky at all, and argubly fails the concept, which makes it pretty difficult to answer capefeathers questions, since I don't really think Aurumoth helps us answer them any better. I will answer bmbs questions tho!!!

    Personally, I mostly spammed Quiver Dance the entire time. A pokemones "best set" is subjective but imo Quiver Dance was head and shoulders better than most of the sets Aurumoth could run. For example I wanted to try a DD + WoW lure set where I could lure out counters to Dragonite by using DD, then burning the revenge killers so Dragonite can have an easier time. But honestly, I just switched to Quiver Dance because it just slaughtered everything and was imo a better set. So to answer the question, using a single set I could was very easy to collect wins.

    Well, the usage statistics answer this question, but I did see a lot of people limiting the pokemon Aurumoth could set up on. For example, I stopped running Tentacruel simply because I couldn't cripple Aurumoth if it switched in, and due to it being so hard to revenge, I just added Head Smash Donphan instead simply to limit the ease of it setting up.

    If Quiver Dance was not a part of this CAP, I firmly believe there would have been a far more diverse range of sets being used. Aurumoth has such a diverse movepool, but Quiver Dance outclassed so many sets, which sorta made it difficult to justify using a different set, like trying to justify using SD Landorus instead of RP Landorus. It wasn't impossible to justify, but it was difficult to do. Without Quiver Dance, DD sets might have been common, and I personally would have felt far more inclination to test lure sets, or more defensive ones (or Scarf Final Gambit or something), especialy as DD isn't quite as strong as Quiver Dance (DD can be countered, while Quiver Dance doesn't really have much).

    Quiver Dance made it not really risky (along with No Guard) simply because Quiver Dance is a safe move. There is no drawback, like Shell Smash perhapes. Quiver Dance boosted its SpA to massive levels (letting it 2KO Jellicent with Psychic), boosted its speed making it hard to revenge kill, and finally boosted its weak special defence stat, letting it tank powerful special attacks with ease. This last point is very telling, simply because the number of special scarfers that can revenge Aurumoth is tiny. I ran calculations and heck, I don't even think Scarf Keldeo can revenge kill under rain if SR isn't up (and Moth is at +1), and its one of OUs best scarfers atm. Even ignoring revenge killers, the special defence boost lets it tank Scalds from Tentacruel from ease, as well as other special attackers (provided it can Quiver before said special attack) making it very easy to set up to +1, or even +2 if you used Illusion right.

    The question as to whether Aurumoth would have been unusable as a sweeper should it have lacked Quiver Dance is an interesting one, but not something I really put high importance too, the goal was not (unless I am mistaken) to create a powerful sweeper, merely a pokemon that helps us understand risk and reward in pokemon. Sure, lacking Quiver Dance might have made it unusable as a sweeper, but on the other hand, a case can be made that Quiver Dance "breaks" Aurumoth anyway, so I guess the point is moot. DD sets would still have seen use I think, even if they might have had a harder time sweeping, I doubt that it would have overwelmed other sets as much as Quiver Dance does, but I guess its hard to know how it could have turned out.

    Its getting late now (midnight) and this post is long enough already and I think I am losing my train of thought / thread here but I want to address Weak Armour in the absence of Quiver Dance. It is possible the ability could have gotten more use (I personally believe it fits the concept best but w/e) but the fact of the matter is, No Guard at least, with the possible addition of Illusion, are more reliable, they are safer, less situational options. No Guard for example, is safe, there are no drawbacks to using it, and it boosts the acc of all the moves I use (yay now I don't miss with Focus Blast / Hydro Pump). Sure, you can claim that the risk "is that your opponents moves are now accurate against you" but Christ, are you really switching into your oppoents inaccurate super effective moves (which was brought up time and time again in support of No Guard) regardless. So anyway, No Guard and Illusion are move reliable, more safe, and are "stronger" abilities (especially when you factor in that Aurumoth already has + spe moves in DD and Quiver Dance further decreasing the effectivness of Weak Amour).

    tl:dr

    Blame Birkal for introducing me to the delights of tl;dr posts
  6. Yilx

    Yilx Sad
    is an Artistis a Smogon IRC AOP

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,176
    the set I used was as follows:

    Aurumoth @ Focus Sash
    Illusion
    Timid, 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    ~Quiver Dance
    ~Bug Buzz
    ~Surf
    ~Thunderbolt

    which ran off my teammates, a generic rain team (toad, landorus-i, jirachi, latios, ferrothorn). I would take the risk of setting up every single match with my lead moth, and 9 out of 10 times it'll work in my favor with it taking out one mon, knocking another down to KO range and sometimes even winning the game without even me switching at all. I remember in one match my opponent switched around aimlessly hoping to do something against my quiver dancing moth, but he basically wiped himself when he switched his toad in, eating a thunderbolt and powering up my surfs.

    my thoughts on moth itself:
    -it had a really exploitable weakness on the special side which in the end does more good than bad for it; i feel that this was a good decision
    -it needs to set up in order to become a threat, but once it does be prepared to receive pain
    -no guard variants were easy to wall as they packed the punch needed to break through dedicated special walls as most of them simply run thunder/blizzard/filler/filler, usually qd or tail glow and something else
    -out of my fourty or so odd matches, I only saw -one- weak armor moth. it was used pretty well too; switching into a predicted ice shard coming off my mamoswine and then sweeping up my HO team.
    -illusion is really fun to play with and i actually went on to make a zoroark team in UU after playing with moth for a while.


    It was fun to use and it taught me alot about how mindg- RISK works in the meta :)
  7. Legend13

    Legend13

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    After I realized i'd be facing politoeds every other match, i started disguising my illusion Aurumoth as Rotom-W, which would force my opponent to switch, giving me a turn to set up Quiver Dance - eventually my opponents would start to recognize me and my tricks.

    The set i used:

    Aurumoth @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Illusion
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    The problem is, Aurumoth, even with the listed EVs and Quiver Dance, Aurumoth still gets speed tied by Genesect, or worse. That one flamethrower could stop Aurumoths sweep outright. Because of that, I would have to risk a second boost in order to beat Genesect.

    At first, I tried a Tail Glow set, but soon realized that Aurumoth could not outspeed anything. Soooo, I spammed Quiver Dance, and swept teams.

    Aurumoths illusion and x4 resistance to fighting made my opponents think twice every time i brought in Zoroark. All in all, Aurumoth promoted Prediction and Mindgames, which is part of what makes the metagame so awesome.

    In the end Aurumoth has turned out to be very much usable, if used correctly, which fulfills part of the concept. However, i almost never saw an Aurumoth with substitute, which means that question is yet to be answered.

    My posts are much too short...
  8. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,154
    I don't have much to add to discussion, 16+ days after the playtesting ended but... after using Aurumoth for a bit / reading through this thread, this entire CAP project has shown us (in my opinion) that Illusion is a ridiculously powerful on something that can take a hit. I'm not trying to say that Illusion was what "broke" Aurumoth, but rather that it can utilize that ability to its full potential (unlike Zoroark, the original Illusion user!) because it can take hits and set up easily (twice if its forced a switch and your opponent brings in the wrong pokemon). I ran Aurumoth on a HO team that focused on preventing SR and by forcing switches with Aurumoth by bluffing so I could set up. In one battle, I brought in Aurumoth disguised as a Terrakion, which made the opponent think "oh shit, better go into Gliscor"

    Something to think about in the future if we ever decide to use Illusion again. It's an ability I want to revisit some day.
    Show Hide
    I just realized that Zoroark was more in lieu with the overall CAP concept than Aurumoth. Hehe.
  9. Eeyore

    Eeyore

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2012
    Messages:
    116
    Late! Sorry!

    Okay, I know I'm a bit late.
    I really enjoy Aurumoth!
    I tried using the No Guard sets, but found it just wasn't worth it... It worked really well with Will-o-Wisp and Skill Swap though.
    So I throw in Aurumoth as Illusion Lead

    Aurumoth @ Iron Ball
    Trait: Illusion
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spd / 252 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Trick
    - Bug Buzz
    - Will-O-Wisp/toxic
    - Quiver Dance

    I know Quiver Dance gives it away, but it is still that one turn that they don't think it was an Aurumoth. Then they usually have to switch and that's another Quiver Dance. Bug Buzz usually wipes enough after that.


    Here was my No-Guard Lead
    (Aurumoth) @ Leftovers
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 152 Def / 252 HP / 104 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Will-o-Wisp/toxic
    - Skill Swap
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam/Overheat/Bug Buzz


    All in all this was a blast!!

    Thanks!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)