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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Movepool Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Apr 12, 2013.

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  1. Homeslice

    Homeslice

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2010
    Messages:
    537
    Final Submission
    VGM's bold, repeats/outclassed italicized
    Level Up:
    Show Hide
    - Tackle
    - Leer
    - Vine Whip
    - Wrap
    4- Leer
    7- Vine Whip
    10- Wrap
    13- Lick
    16- Poison Fang
    20- Bite
    24- Magical Leaf
    26- Mega Drain
    30- Thunder Fang
    34- Aromatherapy
    40- Seed Bomb (Leaf Blade)
    46- Crunch
    52- Wring Out
    58- Synthesis
    64- Sucker Punch
    70- Leaf Storm
    Learn levels and moves are simply a mixture between Serperior, Seviper, and Arbok, with competitive needs thrown in. Nothing too extreme.


    TM/HM:
    Show Hide
    TM 5- Roar
    TM 6- Toxic
    TM 10- Hidden Power
    TM 11- Sunny Day
    TM 12- Taunt
    TM 17- Protect
    TM 21- Frustration
    TM 22- Solarbeam
    TM 27- Return
    TM 41- Torment
    TM 44- Rest
    TM 45- Attract
    TM 46- Thief
    TM 66- Payback
    TM 72- Volt Switch
    TM 81- X-Scissor
    TM 82- Dragon Tail
    TM 84- Poison Jab
    TM 87- Swagger
    TM 90- Substitute
    HM 01- Cut


    Egg:
    Grass/Field Groups
    Show Hide
    Grass:
    -Wood Hammer (Torterra/Abomasnow)
    -Power Whip (Ferrothorn)
    -Aromatherapy
    -Spikes (Ferrothorn)
    -Encore (Chain breed Victreebel/Whimsicott)
    -Leaf Blade
    Field:
    -Glare (Smeargle/Arbok/Serperior)
    -Rapid Spin(Smeargle)
    -Pursuit (Smeargle/Tauros/Umbreon)
    -Mean Look (Smeargle/Umbreon)
    -Slam (Smeargle/Arbok)
    -Snatch (Smeargle/Weavile)
    -Punishment (Smeargle/Weavile/Seviper)


    Tutor:
    Show Hide
    -Gastro Acid
    -Bind
    -Sleep Talk
    -Snatch
    -Snore
    -Worry Seed
    -Dark Pulse
    -Last Resort
    -Giga Drain
    -Endure

    60 Total, 31 VGM

    Notable Exclusions:
    Baton Pass- I really don't like the idea of Malaconda turning into a berry-boost passer, as someone (I believe it was Deck Knight) pointed out that with Harvest mechanics and a Starf berry, it is possible that you can get two 2x boosts in one turn. If one of those is Speed or Evasion, the baton pass can become easier, or you can just use Synthesis and continue repeating the process if you get SpD/Def/Evasion.

    U-Turn- U-Turn, to me at least, is also with Baton Pass on a move I wish was purely a momentum move in the sense you pretty much just switch out with no added bonuses. I used Volt Switch instead because I'd rather have him not be able to switch out on ground types (Ice Fang/Glare/Grass STAB take care of it) and not do a significant amount based off the poor SpA. I'm all for momentum, just not momentum that could be easily abused by Malaconda. U-Turn does 4x damage to things like Celebi. 100 Atk honestly isn't that bad, most sweepers on the frailer side won't enjoy getting hit by it for neutral damage.

    Notable Inclusions:
    Glare/Ice Fang- I'm including these together because the basis of my argument comes from their pairing. You don't need only one to stop Ground/Flying types. Landoruses both outspeed. Both can U-Turn for significant damage. Gliscor is a physical wall with Poison Heal. Status won't really stop it, and it can Protect spam its way out of huge damage. Most Pokemon in general outspeed Malaconda, not just Ground/Flying types. Glare helps even up the competition.
    Ice Fang also helps with the slowing of Sandstorm which I could argue is more prominent now than Rain. It turns Malaconda into a solid check or decent Counter to things like Gliscor and Hippodown.

    Encore- I personally never saw the usefulness in encore, but then again I've never really tried it. All I know about it is that it can force Pokemon out, which is what we want Malaconda to do. Imagine Encoring a CM Latias into CM, then proceed to Pursuit. It helps with the combination.

    Dragon Tail/Roar- Phazing is hands down my favorite strategy in the metagame. Spreading damage through hazards is invaluable nowadays. Dragon Tail and Roar both bring different aspects of Phazing to the table. One allows for even more residual damage, and one hits through subs. Both stop Baton Pass chains and set-up sweepers.

    Spikes- Spikes is a good combination to go along with phazing. Spikes is a blessing to sun, as sun really needs all the help it can get as the worst viable weather. One layer of spikes alone cause turn 2HKO's into OHKO's, and 3HKO's into 2HKO's. That sort of power is desperately needed to help Sun with that little push forward to become the best weather and house the new best types in turn.
  2. Homeslice: Just skimmed yours, but a couple of quick notes:

    The VGM list is static. Special VGMs are still VGMs even on this CAP.
    Smeargle is in the field group, so right now you have no illegal egg move combinations.
  3. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    122
    Final Submission

    Level Up moves (open)

    (16 total moves, 8 VGMs)
    -Sunny Day
    -Wrap
    -Leer
    4. Vine Whip
    7. Sweet Scent
    10. Bite
    13. Glare
    16. Poison Tail
    19. Taunt
    22. Seed Bomb
    26. Torment
    31. Sucker Punch
    36. Mean Look
    41. Crunch
    46. Synthesis
    51. Power Whip

    Malaconda's level up moves demonstrate his deceptive nature and reliance on the sun. Like any reptile, Malaconda is a cold-blooded creature. Giving him Sunny Day as a remembered move allows him to activate his own ability and regenerate massive HP with Synthesis, while also serving as a polite reminder that he favors warm weather. Even at lower levels, this slippery snake is a master of deception. He likes to lure in prey with the sweet aroma of its apple and trap them within its coils. Like any good basilisk, Malaconda's eyes are dangerous weapons themselves, capable of striking fear into its prey's heart and preventing its escape. Malaconda also likes to play mind games, taunting and tormenting foes and using sneak attacks, rather than having a fair fight.



    TM moves (open)

    TM/HM Moves
    (25 total moves, 12 VGMs)
    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM12 Taunt*
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 Solarbeam
    TM27 Return**
    TM32 Double Team
    TM41 Torment*
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM63 Embargo
    TM66 Payback
    TM67 Retaliate
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM82 Dragon Tail
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM89 U-Turn
    TM90 Substitute
    TM93 Wild Charge
    TM95 Snarl
    HM04 Strength

    Pretty standard fare here. Our snake fiend gains a few new STABs. Being the coward it is, it also learns Dragon Tail for scaring off things it can't defeat mono a mono, and U-Turn for a hasty retreat from danger. It also gets Wild Charge for grass resistant water types like Tentacruel and Gyarados.



    Tutor moves (open)

    (15 total moves, 8 VGMs)
    Bind
    Covet
    Dark Pulse
    Gastro Acid
    Giga Drain
    Heal Bell
    Iron Tail
    Knock Off
    Outrage
    Sleep Talk
    Seed Bomb*
    Snatch
    Snore
    Spite
    Super Fang
    Synthesis*
    Worry Seed

    Malaconda learns a few neat tricks here, such as the deadly Super Fang which has some decent utility in wall breaking, and Knock Off, to remove the precious Evolite Chansey and Porygon 2 like to use to wall Malaconda's sun team allies. Malaconda also learns Heal Bell here allowing it to cure itself from status and live to fight another day. Not that it truly cares about them, but Heal Bell also has the side effect of curing its allies status, as well. With Iron Tail, the snake's golden apple becomes as hard as steel, resulting in a nice attack on the ice types who might otherwise try and give Malaconda the cold shoulder. Other moves like Covet, Snatch, and Spite, depict Malaconda's vengeful and greedy nature, and with Worry Seed, Malaconda's foes will be hard pressed to sleep soundly at night.


    Egg moves (open)

    Dragon and Field Egg groups
    (8 total moves, 5 VGMs)
    Endure
    Ice Fang
    Leaf Blade***
    Pursuit
    Rapid Spin
    Take Down
    Thunder Fang
    Wring Out

    Malaconda fits right in with fellow snakes Arbok and Seviper in the Dragon and Field egg groups. This allows Malaconda to pick up some handy dragon attacks as well as the elemental fangs. Proving that the good die young and devils live forever, Endure is a nice move on Malaconda, allowing the beast to cling to life long enough for its pinch or Custap Berries to activate, and wreaking some last minute havok on its enemies. Perhaps most importantly, through unholy hybrid breeding, Malaconda can learn to forget its low speed momentarily, learning to spin about rapidly, clearing the way of hazards and learn to quickly pursue its escaping prey.

    It is also worth mentioning because Smeargle is also in the Field egg group, Malaconda suffers no move set restrictions.


    Exclusion analysis (open)

    Baton Pass: We already hollowed out the best potential Baton Pass had by disallowing Ingrain and the good boosting moves, and no one will ever bother passing Magnet Rise. As a pure pivot move, U-Turn is superior to Baton Pass and always will be. As far as boost passing is concerned, Malaconda has no boosting moves and pinch boost passing is overly complicated and will never work in a practical battle. Also, since Glare is allowed, Baton Passing speed is unnecessary.

    Destiny Bond: I feel Destiny Bond is a move that slipped through the cracks in the discussion phase without really being discussed or analyzed. Suicide does not benefit Malaconda’s main role as a bulky pivot. With the unlimited priority of Custap Berry and Harvest Malaconda has some great potential for late game cleaning/sweeping. Permitting Destiny Bond would allow Malaconda to suicide bond and bypass some of its important counters, namely steel types, which it shouldn’t be able to beat.

    Extremespeed: I opted to exclude Extremespeed for a few reasons. For priority, Malaconda already has Sucker Punch, which has the same base power as ES plus STAB, but can also be played around with good prediction. Allowing Malaconda to have two different priority moves on one set would give it too much versatility as a bulky attacker and a late game cleaner, especially when you potentially add the attacking power of a Liechi Berry into the mix. Extremespeed also would allow Malaconda to outpriority and kill a weakened Breloom or Conkeldurr, which is very anti-concept, as these two are supposed to be very clear cut checks to the snake. I also feel Malaconda should be vulnerable to Pranksters to some degree. If Malaconda is allowed to attack them with Extremespeed before they can begin their trickery, their effectiveness is weakened substantially. Sucker Punch avoids this problem, as it only works if the opponent attacks, which the Pranksters rarely actually do. A Prankster could even Encore Malaconda into Sucker Punch, and continue not attacking, forcing Malaconda to switch out.

    Foul Play: Allowing Foul Play encourages the use of a potentially broken Glare Swagger set in conjuction with the unlimited Substitutes provided by Harvest and Sitrus Berries.

    Healing Wish: Again, suicide doesn’t benefit Malaconda’s role as a pivot. The combination of Rest Ninetales and Heal Bell will allow Malaconda to maintain its Drought buddy’s health, and without killing itself. HW is unnecessary and anti-concept.

    Magic Coat: I excluded Magic Coat on the grounds that Malaconda should be vulnerable to Taunt and Encore, is basically invulnerable to status already with Lum Berry and/or Heal Bell, and has Rapid Spin for hazard defense.

    Memento: Again, suicide moves aren’t going to be Malaconda’s thing. At low HP, Malaconda would be too slow to use Memento before being killed, and you wouldn’t want him to kill himself at high HP would you?

    Roar: Forfeiting Roar was one of the harder choices I had to make, but one I made for several reasons. Malaconda has so many different options to deter set up, including its decent attack coverage, Dragon Tail, Glare, Taunt and simply U-Turning to a counter. In spite of all these moves, I feel some things should be able to set up on Malaconda, and taking away its full-fledged phasing move is the best way to prevent it from being OP. Dragon Tail still allows phasing, but rewards prediction more than Roar. Having to use Dragon Tail over Roar makes Malaconda more susceptible to Substitute sweepers, and is the most reasonable way I can rationalize it having Glare. I also feel Malaconda’s parashuffle set will be more easily countered if it has to run Dragon Tail over Roar. Accidentally shuffle into a sub user it can’t break in one hit with DT and Malaconda’s party is over. Finally, if you want to discuss flavor, snakes don't roar. They aren't very vocal animals. They are silent, stealthy predators.

    Spikes: I don’t buy the argument, “if Malaconda can’t do everything Forretress can, then it automatically sucks.” Malaconda is already a slow pivot who can spin, in addition to having many other roles Forry can’t perform. Giving Malaconda hazards just takes one more step towards making Forretress completely obsolete. And while Spikes is a great goodstuff move, it doesn’t add a whole lot to the offensive play style of sun. Spikes setting is a sure fire way to lose momentum, which sun thrives on.

    Stockpile and other defense boosting moves: I excluded Stockpile on the grounds that after a few defensive boosts, Malaconda will become an unbreakable wall, especially in conjunction with Lum+Rest. Malaconda should not be thought of as a true wall, but a defensive pivot that can hop in the battle, do a specific job, and then run away again.

    Wood Hammer: I went back and forth between allowing and disallowing Wood Hammer and ultimately decided to lose it. Power Whip has the same base power at the cost of some accuracy. Power Whip maximizes damage against Politoed and Tyranitar, while also having the risk of missing. While WH’s recoil could be used a tool in helping to get Malaconda’s HP lower enough to activate pinch berries, I found the two moves overly redundant.


    Final comments (open)

    I think I really nailed down Malaconda's cunning character in these moves, while also giving him a realistic moveset you would except him to have in the games. Malaconda has many roles which will benefit sun including being a rain pivot, special sponge, bulky attacker, trapper, priority killer, phazer, stunner, spinner, status cleric and general SOB.

    Malaconda also has some very realistic limitations as well, such as being a terrible sufferer of four moveslot syndrome. While Malaconda will surely be a great glue-mon for his team, he can't do it all at once. Most of his sets will be largely ineffective against steel types, Pranksters and substitute users. Because of Malaconda's many weaknesses and low speed and low physical defense, he can also easily be forced out. The extremely popular U-Turn pivot move is quadruple effective on him. If you are faced with U-Turner, be prepared to either let Malaconda die or switch to a bug resist and risk losing battle momentum.

    Going back to the original concept, he promotes the use of underused types such as fire, flying, ice and bug, all of which he is weak to, but also assists these types on his own side by clearing the battlefield of rocks. Furthermore, through a combination of good offensive and defensive synergy and being an excellent slow pivot, Malaconda is able to get most of them safely on the battle field. Any team will benefit from his presence, but most particularly sun. The true beauty of Malaconda is that while rain and sand teams might abduct him, Malaconda works best for sun and not against it. Faced with super effective boosted fire moves, Malaconda will become a serious liability. Regardless, I'm really happy with how Malaconda turned out. I think he will balance out the meta game nicely, simultaneously promoting sun and underused types and reducing more common weather and hazards. I am excited to see how he plays.


    Total: 65 moves, 33 VGMs
    (*Taunt, Torment, Seed Bomb and Synthesis repeated.)
    (**Return and Frustration count as one VGM.)
    (***Leaf Blade outclasses Seed Bomb so the two count as one VGM.)

    Notable inclusions: Power Whip, Leaf Blade, Crunch, Payback, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Outrage, Dragon Tail, Wild Charge, Thunder/Ice/Super Fang, U-Turn, Synthesis, Rest, Glare, Taunt, Torment, Mean Look, Heal Bell, Rapid Spin

    Notable exclusions: Baton Pass, Destiny Bond, Extremespeed, Foul Play, Memento, Roar, Spikes, Wood Hammer
  4. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,886
    Just some commentary, based mostly on the submissions that have had positive feedback so far.

    I'm not convinced that Follow Me is appropriate to use to represent a deceptive move. Not a single Dark-type learns this move, and its distribution isn't very impressive to begin with. It seems like a move that should be included with more discretion. After You and Last Resort are in a similar boat, except they do enjoy decent distribution among Grass-types so whatever.

    I'm a bit perplexed at what Moonlight brings to Malaconda's flavour. Moonlight is another move with rather low distribution, and it tends to imply a connection to the moon or being nocturnal. Is Malaconda such a nocturnal Pokemon as to make Moonlight so fitting?

    I'm not really convinced that Recycle has a real connection to "recycling" the tail apple. Harvest already does this.

    Just a reminder, Trick is disallowed.

    Encore seems kind of random.

    Pre-evo moves might not be the best idea when pre-evos aren't guaranteed.

    Competitively, I'm a bit worried about certain pairs of moves that may be included in submissions together:

    • Dragon Tail / Roar / Whirlwind and U-turn / Baton Pass
    • Ice Fang and Glare

    I'd like people to explain why they have both of either pair in their submissions. It seems like they mostly do the same thing. Why use U-turn to "maintain momentum" when Dragon Tail is already included? Why use Ice Fang when Glare cripples so many of the threats targeted by Ice Fang?
  5. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    789
    Final Submission

    Still open to feedback!

    (59 moves, 28 VGMs)

    Level Up (open)
    (22 moves, 8 VGMs)

    0 - Leer
    0 - Bite
    0 - Wrap
    0 - Torment
    0 - Tail Whip
    0 - Astonish
    5 - Bite (repeat)
    8 - Confuse Ray
    12 - Razor Leaf
    15 - Captivate
    19 - Knock Off
    22 - Leaf Tornado
    25 - Covet
    28 - Flatter
    33 - Scary Face
    39 - Leaf Blade
    44 - Aromatherapy
    50 - Foul Play
    55 - Haze
    61 - Sucker Punch
    66 - Punishment
    75 - Power Whip

    Note: the level-up progression is a slightly altered version of Gengar's one, it's meant to allude at my avatar the evil and malice Malaconda represents.

    Malaconda is a nasty pokemon to encounter. While not venomous (as many snakes are), it loves harassing people and other pokemon just for its personal amusement. The apple it carries on the tail has the property to be irresistibly attracting for anyone (like the mythological one, sorta), and that makes easier for it to lure (Captivate, Flatter), deceive (Covet), scare (Scary Face), trap (Wrap), confuse (Confuse Ray, Astonish) or torment (Torment) its target without problems. It defends itself from hostile individuals smart and wise enough to not fall into its traps by using its fangs (Bite) or by using the grass and the nature it lives within to its advantage (Razor Leaf, Leaf Tornado, Leaf Blade).

    After leveling up a while, Malaconda starts tiring of simply playing with its victims, and starts using a more brutal and direct approach. Its tail is now stronger, and Malaconda uses it to slam and whip (Power Whip). It still uses cheap tactics like ambushing (Sucker Punch); it's also very hard to scare, and is sometimes brave enough to face against stronger foes, just to turn their own strength against them (Punishment, Foul Play). If everything else fails, it just runs away with the help of a thick Haze it can generate from its mouth.


    TMs and HMs (open)
    (18 moves, 9 VGMs + 1 equivalent)

    6 - Toxic
    10 - Hidden Power
    11 - Sunny Day
    12 - Taunt
    15 - Hyper Beam
    21 - Frustration
    22 - SolarBeam
    27 - Return (equivalent)
    32 - Double Team
    41 - Torment (repeat)
    44 - Rest
    45 - Attract
    46 - Thief
    66 - Payback
    68 - Giga Impact
    86 - Grass Knot
    87 - Swagger
    90 - Substitute
    93 - Wild Charge

    The TM / HM move list is not really that interesting. Besides required moves and obvious ones, Malaconda can also learn anything that can link to deceptive, malicious intents or tactics (like Thief, Torment, Attract...) besides from another couple of STAB options that don't really add a lot (but there's also no reason to deny them to Malaconda: they're either required (Payback), or fitting for the concept (Grass Knot, SolarBeam also fits since it hints at Malaconda being able to use solar energy, which will be reinforced by Synthesis later). Malaconda can also somewhat control electricity (to a greater extent that just with Thunder Fang) and use it to strike the opponent, however it hurts itself more often than not while attempting to do so.


    Tutor (open)
    (7 moves, 3 VGMs + 1 outclassed)

    Bug Bite
    Dark Pulse
    Recycle
    Seed Bomb (outclassed by Leaf Blade)
    Sleep Talk
    Snatch
    Synthesis

    Move tutors are even less interesting than TMs / HMs. Malaconda can learn to take advantage of the sunlight even further, learning how to directly regenerate energy instead of relying on Berries it can readily recycle. Speaking of Recycle, some Malaconda learn this technique to avoid losing their favourite Berry's benefit at night or in rainy days. Everything else is not particularly interesting, and somewhat bound to the malicious side of Malaconda (Dark Pulse, Snatch, and Bug Bite, to a lesser extent).


    Breeding (open)
    (12 moves, 8 VGMs)

    [Field group]

    Baton Pass
    Charm
    Crunch
    Encore
    Faint Attack
    Mean Look
    Pursuit
    Rapid Spin
    Spit Up
    Stockpile
    Swallow
    Thunder Fang

    Malaconda can breed with pokemon in the Field group, since it's the one that makes more sense flavour-wise (almost all snakes belong to this group, if I did not make mistakes).

    Egg moves allow Malaconda to learn many interesting techniques. It gets reliable STAB attacks like Pursuit and Cruch, that are obviously connected with its physical appearance and its flavor, other miscellaneous things still connected to its evil and / or deceptive behaviour (Mean Look, Faint Attack, Charm), and something canonical through all snakes (Spit Up, Stockpile, Swallow). It can also learn to co-operate with other Malacondas (or other pokemon it perceives as possible allies in its malicious intents) via Baton Pass, Spin away dangerous field conditions (Rapid Spin) or shock its preys with electrically-charged fangs (Thunder Fang). Encore completes the movepool, I guess it could be interpreted as a way Malaconda has to persuade its target to do the same move over and over again, although any input on how to justify this point flavor-wise is appreciated.


    Competitive reasoning (open)

    Let me start with a note. This submission is pretty minimal, as you probably noticed reading the move lists. This is entirely intended. While building it, I tried to give Malaconda the tools it needs to do its work, and nothing else. This is because Malaconda already has GREAT traits in my opinion: it's a spinner that flat out beats most of the spinblockers, and also happens to be a reliable counter to Specs Latios and a viable switch-in for things like SpecsToed and stuff. It has great tools even before touching the movepool, like status "immunity", a great ability, and a good deal of flexibility thanks to the berries it may use. The already-great traits Malaconda possess convinced me to use a minimalist approach to my movepool submission (this is why I did it in the first place, since I felt most of the other submissions are quite "happy" in giving Malaconda tools it doesn't necessarily need), to avoid producing an overwhelming end result and to avoid supporting sun, an arguably already great playstyle, too much.

    Attacking moves:
    • STABs: Malaconda gets a lot of STAB attacks, either because they're just generally useful for the concept, or they're in line with flavor, or both. Payback and Crunch are the main options, with Sucker Punch as a high risk / high reward alternative. It also gets Pursuit since it needs to trap Latis and get residual damage on switching-out Toeds. On the Grass side, it gets almost everything it could ask for except Wood Hammer (I just felt unnecessary to give it a move with so scarce distribution and basically equivalent, if not worse, than Power Whip. Also, it fits less flavor-wise, I guess). Leaf Blade is an usable alternative if one absolutely does not want to miss: it's still able to 2HKO Defensive Politoed with SR onto the field most of the times.
    • Coverage: Malaconda doesn't have a big selection of coverage attacks. Poison and Steel type attacks have been ignored mainly based on the fact they don't add anything to Malaconda (Iron Tail needs to be super effective while its Grass STAB to be resisted in order to outdamage Power Whip significantly; Poison coverage is generally terrible and may screw Breloom as counter, so there's no reason to give it and one to not give it). Ice coverage is lacking, and it merits a special mention: I just wanted Malaconda to deal with Dragons (and Grass to a lesser extent) in other ways besides directly attacking them. Furthermore, it has the potential to be troublesome when Breloom is supposed to check Malaconda, and since supportive options to deal with loss of momentum will be included, I avoided giving any unnecessary coverage. Electric moves are included to better deal with Water types that have a secondary type resistant to Grass, like Gyarados and Tentacruel; it doesn't hurt any of our counters significantly, so no problem here. Malaconda also gets a very niche option in Bug Bite; while mostly useless, it has a neat interaction with opposing Malacondas, and to a lesser extent Hydreigon and Celebi; since it's ok flavor-wise and it's not going to break anything anyway, I decided to give it this (very minor) opportunity. I actually don't expect it to be used at all, but if someone is so desperate to hit those pokemon to give up a valuable move slot, I'm not preventing them to do so.
    Non-attacking moves:
    • Stat-boosting: Malaconda carries Stockpile mainly for flavor reasons, however it's quite a bad move on it since even at +1 and full invested, Scizor OHKOs easily and any U-Turn user can deal a respectable amount of damage (not to mention it cannot handle strong SE special attacks anymore). Even considering it can use Baton Pass, I think it's largely harmless.
    • Recovery: Malaconda gets only Rest and Synthesis. Not much to discuss here. Rest is pretty much mandatory after having seen how we built Malaconda right now, and Sun-based recovery is an ok alternative since it ties Malaconda to the Sun anyway.
    • Utility: Malaconda gets a major supportive option in Rapid Spin. I felt unnecessary to overload it with other options; it's already great as-is. Aromatherapy is another option it can use: it's balanced in the sense Malaconda can already remove its own status in multiple ways (Lum, Rest, whatever), so using an extra moveslot to heal its team is not that great, thus there's no reason to deny it.
    • Momentum: Malaconda gets Baton Pass; it allows to escape from predicted switch-ins, does not break Balloons, and is an elegant way to avoid giving it status options like Sleep or Paralysis that could screw its counters just to give us a way to prevent complete momentum loss. I don't think SubPass or Starf / pinch berry abuse can be gamebreaking at all (there's quite a number of differences with Moody, and I think it would just be a not-so-effective gimmick compared to it). Malaconda also gets Encore, which forces the opponent into a mindgame when deciding to set up on Malaconda. A mispredict would probably mean a complete loss of momentum, while a correct prediction is likely to result in a dead Malaconda. While a niche option, it's great to keep the opponent guessing, in my opinion. Malaconda also gets Taunt, mostly for flavor reasons, but I guess it can't hurt anyway, especially considering its low Speed and the fact it'll be a lesser Encore most of the times.
    • Phazing: For a variety of reasons, Malaconda only gets Haze as a phazing option. I avoided Dragon Tail since it could hit things like Salamence, Dragonite, & co a little bit harder than I was comfortable with; I already decided to avoid Ice Fang, so an option that would deal a good chunk + 25% for another switch into SR seemed excessive too. Roar / Whirlwind are excluded mainly for flavor reasons (yeah sorry jas for preferring flavor to competitive reasoning on this, but I can't see a snake Roaring at all, and it cannot create a sufficient airflow to blow opponents away except maybe a Caterpie or something...). Anyway, since it already has a number of options to avoid set-ups, it's not a big deal in my opinion.
    • Hazards: Malaconda doesn't get any hazard to use. While I can see the argument "we're going to replace Forretress / Donphan, who will set up hazards for us?", I just respectfully disagree. Forretress and Donphan cannot deal with spinblockers, mostly, cannot deal with Politoed, cannot Pursuit trap things, cannot heal, etc... tl;dr we're NOT replacing those pokemon. Malaconda is an entirely new entity that replaces their Spinning function, but that do not mean it must cover their functions 100%. I'm sure Sun teams will find other hazard setters without much troubles, giving those to Malaconda seems unnecessary and threatens to produce a borderline-OP mon.
    • Status: Malaconda gets Toxic, and Confuse Ray if you're desperate about statusing something. It already has enough options to avoid being dead weight against dangerous switch-ins that I felt unnecessary to give it Glare or Stun Spore (not even going into Sleep moves, that sorta guarantee a KO) just to screw on some counter. Toxic does that fine anyway, for the most part.

      This should be all. For anything I forgot or not explained adequately, please let me know and I'll address that to my best.



  6. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Because.

    We must be as MYSTERIOUS AS THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOOOOOOOON.

    Movepools should also include Swift (as a coursing river), Force Palm (of a great typhoon) and Strength (of a raging fire).
  7. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
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    122
    Snakes are cold blooded and active in the sun and inactive at night.

    Malaconda is a grass type.

    Dark typing be damned. Synthesis makes more sense.

    Also Syntheisis still sounds evil. Sin-thesis...

    Edit: Also @ capefeather, in regards to Glare and Ice Fang together, many Dragonite and Salamence carry Lum Berry. Glare doesn't stop them, but Ice Fang does. And I doubt you'd ever see the two moves on the same set.

    But then again Roar/Dragon Tail.

    Edit 2: Actually come to think of it, Ice Fang wouldn't necessarily stop Multiscale Dragonite either. :D
  8. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    882
    I can see what you mean about Moonlight, it doesn't actually make sense for an anaconda all things considered. I like After You and Follow Me though, although Last Resort is admittedly more sketchy. I might just replace Moonlight with Follow Me on the level-up list.
  9. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
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    Ok, so let me take some time to give a few comments myself. First off, I'm not going to chat too much about flavor. I have my opinions, but so does everyone else, and I am no more of an expert than the next person. I don't personally agree with all of capefeather's assessments (by which I mean that I love Moonlight here), but to each his own.

    What I more want to talk about is the competitive side of things. Unlike capefeather, I am not so concerned about any pair or group of moves, but I really want to see explanations of why, especially for things like the groups he pointed out. When moves serve similar purposes, why did you choose the ones you chose? Just as importantly, why didn't you choose the ones you left out. This latter part is especially important. In my experience with movepools, I have often found the explanations for why something should not be in a movepool to be the most convincing arguments in the entire posts.

    Basically, what I want to emphasize is that all competitive moves should have competitive reasoning behind them. I would like to see reasoning for every single competitive VGM you include, and for controversial or generally accepted move that you chose to leave out. Now, I don't mean that you need to explain why you didn't put in Leaf Blade when you have Power Whip and Seed Bomb, but if you decided to leave out Power Whip, then I want to see something as to why. Additionally, for things like Ice Fang and Glare, I would like to see people give reasoning for why they did what they did no matter what it is. Remember, while this stage may be a mix of flavor and competitiveness, competitive aspects should always come first, and I want to see that movepool makers are keeping this in mind. I don't care what arguments were made in the moves threads, if you cannot defend Glare/Ice Fang/Power Whip/Whatever for your own movepool, you will not get very far. The fact that "its good flavor" and "people made arguments for having it already" mean nothing if you cannot prove it fits competitively on YOUR movepool.

    That's about enough from me. I don't want to sound condecending or anything here, I'm just trying to make sure people are making movepools that have real competitive thought behind them. So, just remember, if you are ever not sure if something is obvious or not, take the time to explain it. You don't want your movepool missing out on making a poll because you forgot to explain why Spikes makes competitive sense.
  10. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Re: Follow Me -

    Considering our artwork is a played-with interpretation of the biblical serpent of Eden, e.g. Lucifer, "Follow Me" seems very appropriate as a base move. 2/5's of the Pokemon lines that Learn Follow Me are also in the Field Egg Group, which is irrelevant for Egg legalities due to Smeargle but not in justifying a relationship as I currently have it.

    I excised Moonlight since it was taking up moves I could have used elsewhere, and I removed Trick since it was disallowed.

    RE: U-turn + Dragon Tail - these both fulfill very different roles for a sun-team, and momentum is only tangentially related to the latter. Dragon Tail and Rapid Spin allow Malaconda to stand in for Donphan (esp. along with Ice Fang over Ice Shard) while U-turn + Rapid Spin allows it to stand in for Forretress. While you could use all 4 moves together, you'd never be able to defeat the key threats you're trying to target. Ice Fang cannot break through Latis.

    The two are also impossible to split realistically, but are not designed to be used together anyway. Spin + Phaze (+ Ice) is one set, Spin + Turn is another. It needs those 1-2 slots for a STAB to actually do its job. The goal here is to open up roles for sun, and allowing both makes room for a change on either side.

    RE: Glare + Ice Fang: Realistically the only way this works is if you Glare the target on the switchin and get the flinch with Ice Fang. Gliscor can stall you out, while Landorus-T can KO with U-turn. It is I submit more helpful against Dragonite, but again relies on Glare hitting on the switch. Either way the biggest targets here are the most popular types in OU, and per our concept we should be aiming to reduce them. The rest of the set would depend on the Berry you are using, which would be Rest and a Grass STAB with Lum (using Glare + Ice Fang to try and overcome Latis) or with Sitrus you might opt for sun-based healing. Either way the set still targets what we designed it to and lowers the viability of common OU types.

    If your issue is their being used simultaneously, I can certainly move it to Egg Moves and alter them do so by making the group Grass/Monster, where it would get Glare from Serperior/Druddigon and Ice Fang from Feraligatr/Tyranitar/Exploud/Rhyperior.
  11. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    The only argument I can come up with myself for Last Resort is flavour in that grass types get it somewhat and that the snake in the Garden of Eden used his Last Resort to get Eve to bite the apple. I'll probably end up just taking it off if it seems everyone agrees it's not good
  12. srk1214

    srk1214 Only the horses can bring us back home tonight
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    Final Submission

    full movepool (open)
    63/32

    VGMs

    Crunch
    Dark Pulse
    Dragon Pulse
    Dragon Tail
    Energy Ball
    Facade
    Foul Play
    Frustration
    Giga Drain
    Glare
    Grass Knot
    Haze
    Hidden Power
    Iron Tail
    Knock Off
    Leaf Blade
    Mean Look
    Nasty Plot
    Outrage
    Payback
    Power Whip
    Protect
    Pursuit
    Rapid Spin
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Spikes
    Substitute
    Sucker Punch
    Synthesis
    Taunt
    Toxic

    Other moves

    Attract
    Beat Up
    Bind
    Bite
    Cut
    Double Team
    Giga Impact
    Hyper Beam
    Leer
    Punishment
    Return (duplicate of Frustration)
    Rock Smash
    Round
    Scary Face
    Seed Bomb (outclassed by Leaf Blade)
    Slam
    Snarl
    Snatch
    Snore
    SolarBeam
    Spite
    Strength
    Sunny Day
    Swagger
    Thief
    Torment
    Twister
    Vine Whip
    Worry Seed
    Wrap
    Wring Out
    the breakdown (open)
    Physical Grass STAB:
    Leaf Blade
    Power Whip
    Seed Bomb

    Physical Dark STAB:
    Beat Up
    Crunch
    Foul Play
    Payback
    Punishment
    Pursuit
    Sucker Punch

    Special STAB:
    Dark Pulse
    Energy Ball
    Giga Drain
    Grass Knot
    Solarbeam

    Coverage:
    Dragon Pulse
    Dragon Tail
    Facade
    Frustration/Return
    Hidden Power
    Iron Tail
    Outrage

    Support VGMs:
    Glare
    Haze
    Knock Off
    Mean Look
    Nasty Plot
    Protect
    Pursuit
    Rapid Spin
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Spikes
    Substitute
    Synthesis
    Taunt
    Toxic

    Flavor:
    Attract
    Bind
    Bite
    Cut
    Double Team
    Giga Impact
    Hyper Beam
    Leer
    Rock Smash
    Round
    Scary Face
    Slam
    Snarl
    Snatch
    Snore
    Spite
    Strength
    Sunny Day
    Swagger
    Thief
    Torment
    Twister
    Vine Whip
    Worry Seed
    Wrap
    Wring Out

    level-up (open)
    14 moves (6 VGMs)
    0-Leer
    0-Vine Whip
    0-Wrap
    4-Leer
    8-Vine Whip
    12-Wrap
    17-Scary Face
    21-Bite
    26-Rapid Spin*
    33-Crunch*
    39-Slam
    44-Leaf Blade*
    50-Glare*
    56-Wring Out
    63-Nasty Plot*
    72-Power Whip*
    79-Punishment

    TM (open)
    27 moves (12 VGMs)

    HM01 Cut
    HM04 Strength
    TM06 Toxic*
    TM10 Hidden Power*
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM12 Taunt*
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect*
    TM21 Frustration*
    TM22 SolarBeam
    TM27 Return (duplicate of Frustration)
    TM32 Double Team
    TM41 Torment
    TM42 Facade*
    TM44 Rest*
    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round
    TM53 Energy Ball*
    TM66 Payback*
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM82 Dragon Tail*
    TM86 Grass Knot*
    TM87 Swagger
    TM90 Substitute*
    TM94 Rock Smash
    TM95 Snarl

    tutor (open)
    15 moves (9 VGMs)

    Bind
    Dark Pulse*
    Dragon Pulse*
    Foul Play*
    Giga Drain*
    Iron Tail*
    Knock Off*
    Outrage*
    Seed Bomb (outclassed by Leaf Blade)
    Sleep Talk*
    Snatch
    Snore
    Spite
    Synthesis*
    Worry Seed

    egg moves (Dragon/Field) (open)
    7 moves (5 VGMs) yay no illegalities!

    Beat Up
    Haze*
    Iron Tail (repeat of Tutored Iron Tail)
    Mean Look*
    Pursuit*
    Spikes*
    Spite (repeat of Tutored Spite)
    Sucker Punch*
    Twister


    explanation (open)
    Competitive Explanation

    This is a pretty basic movepool that should lead to Malaconda having probably only 2 notable roles. Offensively, Malaconda has basically all the Grass and Dark Physical STABs it could ever want. Between Power Whip/Leaf Blade and Crunch/Sucker Punch/Punishment/Pursuit, Malaconda can run whichever move is best for the team to its heart's content. Aside from that, though, Malaconda's only coverage is Normal/Dragon/Steel, unless you would use something as pitiful as Rock Smash (lol). The only extra coverage is Hidden Power, a Special move, which should be pitiful in the vast majority of situations.

    Absent from the offensive movepool are Ice Fang, Thunder Fang/Wild Charge, Super Fang, and U-turn. The inclusion of the elemental fangs seems unnecessary for what Malaconda wants to do. Taking on Landorus on the switch is niche at best and distracts Malaconda's moveslots. Hurting Landorus-T on the switch is already accomplished by Glare, paralyzing Landorus-T, making it easier to deal with later. Landorus-I isn't a great switch-in anyway. Power Whip deals nearly half damage. True, no Ice Fang means Gliscor is now a hard counter, but I think that's a fair sacrifice to make considering we never were setting out to specifically beat Gliscor or anything. Similarly Thunder Fang/Wild Charge are distractions that are unnecessary in the movepool and I excluded them in favor of other VGMs that I thought more necessary or flavorful, once Ice Fang had been excluded (once you exclude one unnecessary fang, exclude em all). As for U-turn and Super Fang, it's either a useful move to take counters down by 50% on the switch-in or a way to switch out and keep momentum. I chose however to include Dragon Tail instead as a kind of middle ground between the two. This also enables me to skip out on Roar later. Support-wise, also Malaconda gets Haze as more reliable defensive alternative to Dragon Tail, though lacking in the offensive, momentum driven potential of the latter. The main thing to note is that Malaconda has no Physical move to hit Steels neutrally (bar Dark moves on the Steel/Psychic mons).

    As mentioned before, Malaconda gets Glare and Haze. Other support moves of note is where Malaconda defines its sets, since the offensive range is essentially Grass move/Dark Move/Dragon Tail. As a result of Malaconda's poor offensive range, Malaconda gets most any support move it could want. First, the cornerstone, Rest is included for the same reasons everyone else includes Rest. Synthesis is a mostly inferior option to Rest that is there more for flavor reasons than anything. It could see use on Malaconda not running Lum or Sitrus Berry however (not that I see a reason for Malaconda to run much any other item, though maybe a resist-berry could work). Malaconda gets Toxic as a status alternative to Glare, which can help against things we wish to beat, but more importantly is a required move to include lol. Substitute and Protect both are natural inclusions that can feed into Harvest continuing to be useful even if you lose the weather war, while also providing good scouting for the team, such as seeing if Scizor is U-turning, leaving Heatran an option, or Superpowering leaving Xatu an option, for example. Taunt is included to help with something that gets in on Malaconda safely and threatens to set up, such as SubCM Rachi, which Dragon Tail cannot beat. Malaconda's other tricks include Knock Off and Sleep Talk, which both offer incredibly niche benefits, but make flavor sense more than anything.

    That leaves the two big kahunas in Malaconda's support movepool: Rapid Spin and Spikes. In my opinion, these are the two most important factors on any Malaconda movepool. Hazard control is incredibly important in general and even more true on a Sun team. There's a reason that Sun runs Espeon or Xatu sometimes despite their utter mediocrity. They need hazard control. The main thing to keep in mind is that Malaconda cannot comfortably run both Rapid Spin and Spikes if it wants to carry recovery. That would leave Malaconda as a mono-attacker which will be countered, or worse, set-up bait for so much of the metagame that it's not even funny. For example, no Dark move means that Latias can Calm Mind for free. No Grass move means that Tyranitar and Politoed have a safe switch-in, once that's revealed.

    This basically means that most Malaconda will have to choose between either of two general sets both with Recovery, Dark STAB, and Grass STAB. They will be either a general team momentum supporter (Glare, Dragon Tail) or a specific hazard helper (Rapid Spin, Spikes). The alternative option allows Malaconda to run Dual STAB with both hazard controlling moves, forfeiting strong reliable recovery (Sitrus Harvest can still help), though this leaves Malaconda weak to all strong threats, just as other recovery-less spinners like Forretress or offensive Starmie must cope with. This Malaconda would operate as Forretress largely does already on Sun teams, though hopefully without the serious momentum drain that using Forretress can cause.

    The concern about Spikes+Rapid Spin leading to Malaconda's use on Rain I think is overblown, since Rain has Ferrocruel, which is a dominant defensive core. And since my submission lacks many useful offensive moves, I have a hard time seeing Malaconda fit in on an offensive team any better than Ferrothorn already does, especially since Ferrothorn has Stealth Rock and Malaconda does not.

    All in all, competitively, this Malaconda is generally restricted in what it can do. It can however fill one of a few vital roles on a Sun team.

    Flavor Explanation

    Flavor-wise, I hate to shove everything in a short few sentences at the bottom, but that's the case. This movepool's flavor is largely based around Serperior's in general shape. This helped justify my lack of including the Fangs. Serperior doesn't get em either. I did however feel compelled to include all of Glare, Scary Face, and Mean Look. This was my main nod to the design. I opted to not include moves that may allude to the design such as Follow Me (the apple distraction) in favor of not actually bloating the movepool. I try to never ride the limits on either moves or stats, so that was a deciding factor for me to stop once I hit 63/32 of the allowed 65/33.
  13. XXTheDingoXX

    XXTheDingoXX

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    32
    Final Submission

    I'm quite happy with this, but I welcome suggestions and feedback.

    56 Moves, 33 VGMs
    (VGMs are highlighted in Bold)

    Level-Up Moves (open)

    -Wrap*
    -Constrict
    -Leer
    -Sleep Talk*
    6 Torment*
    11 Vine Whip
    15 Pursuit
    21 Sweet Scent
    26 Assurance
    30 Flatter/Swagger*
    35 Slam
    39 Seed Bomb*
    44 Crunch
    47 Charm/Captivate
    51 Power Whip
    55 Wring Out
    61 Foul Play*
    66 Nasty Plot

    Explanation:
    Malaconda starts with the weak snake-y moves first, and very early on it learns Torment, its first "influence" move. After experimenting for a few levels, it realises it can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar, so it learns Sweet Scent. At level 30 it has becomes quite skilled in influencing peoples emotions and feelings, and it learns Flatter and Swagger. Essentially the same move, they focus on making the other person like them more, continuing on from its "catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar" technique. It then focuses on its combat for a while, learning a powerful Normal move that expresses its snake-y looks and learning two reliable STABs. It then learns Charm and Captivate. These two moves are the peak of Malaconda's abilty to influence people through it's words. After this, it learns it's best STABs and an even more powerful Normal move, also with a snake-y theme. It is only after this that Malaconda learns Nasty Plot, which is pretty self explanatory.


    TM/HM Moves (open)

    TM6 - Toxic
    TM11 - Sunny Day
    TM12 - Taunt
    TM17 - Protect
    TM30 - Shadow Ball
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM41 - Torment*
    TM42 - Facade
    TM44 - Rest
    TM45 - Attract
    TM46 - Theif
    TM53 - Energy Ball
    TM54 - False Swipe
    TM56 - Fling
    TM63 - Embargo
    TM66 - Payback
    TM67 - Retaliate
    TM76 - Struggle Bug
    TM82 - Dragon Tail
    TM84 - Poison Jab
    TM86 - Grass Knot
    TM87 - Swagger*
    TM89 - U-turn
    TM90 - Substitute
    TM95 - Snarl

    Explanation:
    Not much to explain here. I added most of the moves for flavour, but there were also some for competitive viability. U-turn I put there because I feel it sits very well with Malaconda. With its bulkiness, it can take an opponent's scald with ease, and then bring out Ninetales afterwards, leaving her safe from a super effective water attack the opponent might get out on the switch. Dragon Tail is great for getting rid of any Calm Mind Lati@s or Swords Dance Scizor hanging around, provided it can take Scizor's 4x effective hits. (Tanga Berry anyone?)


    Egg Moves (open)

    (Field/Dragon)

    -Leaf Blade
    -Bite
    -Iron Tail*
    -Poison Tail
    -Rapid Spin
    -Ingrain
    -Baton Pass
    -Glare
    -Aromatherapy
    -Super Fang
    -Hyper Fang
    -Yawn

    Explanation:
    Obviously since its in the Field egg group, there aren't any restrictions. (Yay Smeargle!) I put Malaconda in the Field/Dragon group over the Field/Grass group because I feel Malaconda, with it's sinister typing and moveset, fits in better with the likes of Arbok and Seviper than it does with Serperior. Anyway, the moves I placed in this section were pretty much the flavour moves and STABs that I couldn't find a place for anywhere else. I also added some of it's most passive moves in this section. Rapid Spin, Aromatherapy, Glare, Yawn, Baton Pass and Ingrain are all included here. Ingrain is a good staple for bulky grass-types, Baton Pass works like U-turn, but in exchange for the extra damage it gains the ability to pass Ingrain. Yawn and Glare are it's two status inducing moves, Toxic notwithstanding. Both are good in many situations, with Yawn forcing a switch and Glare crippling any fast rain sweeper like Scizor. Aromatherapy, much like Ingrain, is a good move for any bulky grass-type. And Rapid Spin has already had countless arguments for and against it, but I think the general consensus is that it should be present on Malaconda.


    Tutor Moves (open)

    -Bind*
    -Covet
    -Foul Play*
    -Giga Drain
    -Iron Tail*
    -Seed Bomb*
    -Snore
    -Worry Seed

    Explanation
    Sorry, but there isn't really much competitive reasoning behind these moves. Snore is a reasonable move to put on this CAP provided you're not using LumRest, but otherwise, all the other moves on this list can either be learned some other way or are not very helpful competitively to Malaconda.


    *Moves that can be learned multiple ways
  14. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
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    The main reason I'm focusing more on flavour is that most of the competitive arguments have already been laid out in the discussions. A lot of the competitive aspects at this point come down to opinion about as much as the flavour aspects do. I think that both are important, something I learned myself after winning a movepool submission for agreeable competitive reasoning despite the really trolly flavour. It may also seem like I'm fixating on minor details, but really the minor details tend to have the same root problems as the major ones that make movepools the butt of jokes and criticism.

    That said, I don't want to linger too long on any one move without good reason. People do have different opinions on Moonlight; I just gave an evidence-based argument as to why it doesn't seem appropriate to me. I get that this is a game that has Groudon and Donphan at the same time (for those who don't know, the elephant is the most probable candidate for the mythical "behemoth"), but I just like to have a sort of biological consistency at least between non-legendaries.

    All I'm saying about Follow Me is that it's difficult for me to make the stretch that a move that no Dark-type gets is a "deceptive" move. There are so many actual Dark-type moves (and even Grass-type moves) out there that explicitly symbolize deception that I feel like Follow Me puts Malaconda on its own pedestal. It's fine for people to disagree, but it disturbs me in general when people just decide that evidence brought up doesn't matter to them. Same goes for moves like Bestow.

    I'm not sure what people's justification is for moves like Echoed Voice and Pain Split. I guess I can infer Spite, though.

    You know, a lot of the move choices in submissions (particularly scantly explained moves) seem to subconsciously connect Malaconda to Liepard of all things (and of course Serperior).
  15. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    565
    Follow Me isn't a "deception" move, it's a "temptation" move. That's a pretty big component of Malaconda's flavour, and one that it doesn't really share with most Dark-types. I get wanting to pay attention to precedent, but it seems pretty obvious how Follow Me (and Bestow for that matter) fit Malaconda and not other Dark-types. After all, none of them have apples growing on their tails.
  16. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
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    Did a major revision and improvement of my submission, if anyone of you can leave a feedback would be greatly appreciated since it's the first time for me to try to submit a movepool submission (it was considerably harder than expected!). Thank you!
  17. Mari

    Mari

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Here comes my movepool (final submission)

    * = VGM
    Return+Frustration count as one move.

    Whole alphabetical list (Total: 65/VGMs: 32) (open)

    Aromatherapy*
    Assurance
    Barrier*
    Bide
    Bite
    Bind
    Block*
    Body Slam*
    Clear Smog*
    Dark Pulse
    Defense Curl
    Destiny Bond*
    Double Team
    DragonBreath
    Dragon Tail*
    Electroweb
    Faint Attack
    Flatter
    Fling
    Foul Play*
    Giga Impact
    Grudge
    Gyro Ball*
    Hidden Power*
    Hyper Beam
    Ice Fang*
    Iron Tail*
    Knock Off*
    Leer
    Morning Sun*
    Payback*
    Poison Tail
    Power Whip*
    Protect*
    Punishment
    Pursuit*
    Rest*
    Return/Frustration*
    Rollout
    Roar*
    Round
    Scary Face
    Seed Bomb*
    Slam
    Sleep Talk*
    Snatch
    Snore
    Solar Beam*
    Steamroller
    Stun Spore*
    Substitute*
    Sucker Punch*
    Sunny Day
    Swagger
    Sweet Scent
    Tail Glow*
    Taunt*
    Thief
    Thunder Fang*
    Toxic*
    U-Turn*
    Volt Switch*
    Wide Guard
    Wrap


    Sorted List (open)

    Physical STAB
    Bite
    Faint Attack
    Foul Play* (does not depend on user's attack stat)
    Punishment
    Power Whip*
    Payback*
    Pursuit*
    Seed Bomb*
    Sucker Punch*

    Physical Coverage
    Body Slam*
    Gyro Ball*
    Ice Fang*
    Iron Tail*
    Poison Tail
    Return/Frustration*
    Steamroller
    Thunder Fang*

    Special STAB
    Dark Pulse
    Grass Knot
    Solar Beam

    Special Coverage
    DragonBreath
    Electroweb
    Hidden Power*
    Hyper Beam (lol)

    Utility
    Aromatherapy*
    Clear Smog*
    Destiny Bond*
    Dragon Tail*
    Knock Off*
    Morning Sun*
    Protect*
    Rest*
    Roar*
    Sleep Talk*
    Stun Spore*
    Substitute*
    Sunny Day
    Swagger
    Taunt*
    Toxic*
    U-Turn*
    Volt Switch*

    Flavor
    Assurance
    Bide
    Bind
    Block*
    Defense Curl
    Double Team
    Flatter
    Fling
    Giga Impact
    Grudge
    Leer
    Rollout
    Round
    Scary Face
    Slam
    Snatch
    Snore
    Sweet Scent
    Tail Glow*
    Thief
    Wide Guard
    Wrap


    TM Moves (Total: 22/VGM: 13) (open)

    Double Team
    Dragon Tail*
    Fling
    Giga Impact
    Grass Knot*
    Gyro Ball*
    Hidden Power*
    Hyper Beam
    Payback*
    Protect*
    Rest*
    Return/Frustration*
    Roar*
    Round
    Solar Beam
    Substitute*
    Sunny Day
    Swagger
    Taunt*
    Thief
    Toxic*
    U-Turn*
    Volt Switch*


    Tutor Moves (Total: 11/VGMs: 7) (open)

    Bind
    Block*
    Dark Pulse*
    Electroweb
    Foul Play*
    Iron Tail*
    Knock Off*
    Seed Bomb*
    Sleep Talk*
    Snatch
    Snore


    Level-Up moves (Total:18/VGMs:6) (open)

    1 Flatter
    1 Sucker Punch*
    1 Steamroller
    1 Bide
    1 Assurance
    1 Leer
    1 Sweet Scent
    5 Leer
    11 Sweet Scent
    15 Bite
    21 Slam
    25 Wrap
    33 Poison Tail
    39 Pursuit*
    47 Snatch (repeated from Tutor)
    53 Grudge
    55 Power Whip*
    61 Clear Smog*
    67 Punishment
    75 Destiny Bond*
    81 Solar Beam* (repeated from TM)


    Egg Moves (Groups: Grass/Dragon) (Total: 12/VGMs: 6) (open)

    Aromatherapy*
    Body Slam*
    Defense Curl
    DragonBreath
    Faint Attack
    Ice Fang*
    Morning Sun*
    Rollout
    Scary Face
    Stun Spore*
    Thunder Fang*
    Wide Guard


    Dream World/Event Moves (Total: 1/VGMs: 1) (open)

    Tail Glow*
  18. Basileus

    Basileus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    279
    Hey guys, huge update. Did some final brush ups and took out a few VGMs to balance power a little bit. I think I am done with finalizing the final moveset. All I need to work on right now is the justifications and stuff like that. However, I don't want to go into final submission until I here maybe a little bit of feedback on my move set. All I really need to do is explain a few of my inclusions and exclusions (which I will do after I finish homework) and I will be practically done. Please offer any advice if you can, this is my first cap and I am still pretty new here. Any comment is appreciated (you can even PM me if you want). Thanks :D
  19. yoshinite

    yoshinite

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,016
    WIP, Finalizing
    VGM
    Repeat
    Outclassed/Equivalent VGM
    Level Up (open)

    0-Spite
    0-Captivate
    0-Follow Me
    0-Bite
    0-Nasty Plot
    0-Assurance
    3-Wrap
    5-Vine Whip
    7-Poison Tail
    13-Glare
    13-Scary Face
    18-Crunch
    23-Pursuit
    29-Flatter
    32-Hypnosis
    35-Foul Play
    37-Punishment
    42-Leaf Blade
    56-Nightmare
    64-Memento
    19 Moves, 6 VGMs
    My Level Up movepool is trying to tell a story. The devil cooks up his Nasty Plot because of Spite towards God's favored crreation, and then Captivates Eve and tells her to Follow Me, and Assures her it's ok. She thinks about not doing it, but his Scary Face and Glare force her to. He then Flatters her into tricking Adam as well, Hypnotizing them. Finally, God's Punishment came, forever leaving a Nightmare and a Memento on the people of Earth. Bite and Wrap are there because it's a snake, and Leaf Blade/Crunch are there for powerful STAB. Foul Play because it is obviously not going to be a fair fighter.

    Tutor (open)

    Covet
    Super Fang
    Seed Bomb
    Iron Tail
    Foul Play
    Dragon Pulse
    Dark Pulse
    Synthesis
    Worry Seed
    Spite
    After You
    Giga Drain
    12 Moves, 5 VGMs

    TMs (open)

    Roar
    Toxic
    Hidden Power
    Sunny Day
    Taunt
    Hyper Beam
    Protect
    Return
    Shadow Ball
    Frustration
    SolarBeam
    Double Team
    Rest
    Attract
    Thief
    Round
    Fling
    Quash
    Embargo
    Payback
    Giga Impact
    Flash
    Dragon Tail
    Poison Jab
    Substitute
    Cut

    26 Moves, 12 VGMs
    Explanation:
    Double Team, Echoed Voice, Substitute, Protect, Toxic, HP, Return, Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, and Frustration because they are pretty much on every mon. Sunny Day because it's based on sun, and Solarbeam because I can see the apple absorbing energy from the sun and shooting it. Poison Jab, because I can see it stabbing something with a poison spike. Embargo and Quash because I can see Malaconda convincing you to not use items/go last. Dragon Tail so it can get rid of threatening mons. Flash because the apple is shiny and can glint light. Attract and Thief because of it's sneaky nature. Roar so it can switch out threats 100% of the time. Fling because it can fling it's apple at you. It can Cut with it's tail.

    Egg (open)

    Egg Group: Dragon/Grass
    Aromatherapy
    Ice Fang
    Sweet Scent
    Synthesis
    Dragonbreath
    Power Whip
    Spikes
    Wring Out
    7 Moves, 5 VGMs
    Explanation:
    Ice Fang to get rid of dragons, plus snakes bite (maybe with the cold of death, idk). Synthesis because it can absorb energy through it's apple. Dragonbreath because it is dragonlike, Sweet Scent because it can lure other mons. Spikes for hazards. Synthesis for a reliable recovery move, and Power Whip for a powerful stab move. Wring Out because other snakes learn it. Aromatherapy so it can be a cleric.
  20. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    927
    Rapid Spin is for BABIES

    move list round two electric boogaloo (open)

    65 Moves Total
    32 VGMs (VGMs are marked with ** unless duplicated)

    Level Up:
    0 - Poison Tail (get it, poison apple reference, I feel witty)
    0 - Wrap
    0 - Bite
    0 - Sweet Scent
    0 - Pursuit
    7 - Sweet Scent
    11 - Pursuit**
    15 - Magical Leaf
    19 - Taunt**
    23 - Glare**
    27 - Crunch**
    32 - Night Shade**
    36 - Foul Play**
    40 - Flatter
    45 - Power Whip**
    49 - Nasty Plot**
    57 - Memento**
    63 - Punishment

    Egg Moves - Grass / Dragon Egg Groups:
    Aromatherapy**
    Sucker Punch**
    Scary Face
    Tickle
    Rage Powder
    Captivate
    Wring Out
    Spikes**

    Legal Combinations
    Aromatherapy+Spikes (Roselia)
    Aromatherapy+Tickle (Vileplume)
    Aromatherapy+Rage Powder (Parasect)
    Aromatherapy+Wring Out (Event Serperior)
    Rage Powder+Tickle (Tangrowth)
    Scary Face+Wring Out (Seviper)
    and a bunch of useless ones lolololol

    Tutor:
    Seed Bomb**
    Sleep Talk**
    Worry Seed
    Foul Play
    Iron Tail**
    Bind
    Snore
    Sucker Punch**
    Gastro Acid
    Spite
    Dark Pulse**
    Giga Drain**
    Synthesis**

    TMs/HMs:
    TM05 Roar**
    TM06 Toxic**
    TM10 Hidden Power**
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM12 Taunt
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect**
    TM21 Frustration**
    TM22 Solarbeam
    TM27 Return
    TM30 Shadow Ball**
    TM32 Double Team
    TM41 Torment
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest**
    TM45 Attract
    TM46 Thief
    TM48 Round
    TM53 Energy Ball**
    TM56 Fling
    TM66 Payback**
    TM82 Dragon Tail**
    TM85 Dream Eater
    TM86 Grass Knot**
    TM87 Swagger
    TM89 U-turn**
    TM90 Substitute**
    TM93 Wild Charge**
    TM95 Snarl


    So I was thinking: man, Rapid Spin is such an awkward move to fit in, do we really need it?

    HELL NO

    Why? Know what else likes Rapid Spin? Dragonite. And Salamence. And Gyarados. And Tornadus. And Thundurus-T. And Kyurem-b.

    "But wait Draco, those aren't sun pokemon!!!"

    EXACTLY. What are we doing with Rapid Spin? Is the benefit of helping Volcarona and Ninetales worth the cost of helping a bunch of rain Pokemon? I DON'T THINK SO, BUB. Now when we decided in concept assessment to make a Pokemon that helps sun and eliminate threats to sun, we essentially established that we DON'T want to encourage Malaconda's use on rain teams. With Rapid Spin, rain just picked up an incredibly specially defensive spinner that resists Water, Grass and Electric and can reliably take out the Lati twins. SOUNDS LIKE MY KIND OF MON.

    With that being said, I decided to remove Rapid Spin from my movepool and focus more on making Malaconda tied to sun at the hip...tail...elongated body! To do this, I wanted to encourage sets that completely rely on Harvest's 100% berry recovery.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Set One:
    Aromatherapy / Substitute / Toxic / Night Shade @ Sitrus Berry

    This set is a basic SubStall set designed to be used on SunStall teams. Aromatherapy provides support for the team while Malaconda slowly whittles down the opponent's HP through the combination of Toxic and Night Shade! However, this set is easily walled by Steel-types and Chansey.

    Set Two:
    Spikes / Synthesis / Glare / Crunch @ Resist Berry

    Malaconda has a number of weaknesses. Thanks to Harvest though, it can patch up any of those weaknesses with a handy resist berry! Fighting-type blues? CHOPLE BERRY. Ice-types keeping you down? YACHE BERRY. Malaconda provides support with Spikes and Glare, allowing a Pokemon like Venusaur to easily come in and clean up! Crunch for the Lati twins, because they're dicks.

    Set Three:
    Rest / Glare / Crunch / Power Whip @ Lum Berry

    MR. UTILITY COUNTER, AT YOUR SERVICE. This set is designed to take out Politoed, the Lati twins and other notable threats to sun teams, like Landorus. With Glare crippling fast sweepers and allowing Malaconda to LumRest stall them or hit them with its STAB moves, your opponent will be a bit more careful about letting Latias in! Breloom and Scizor don't really gaf about this set though.

    Set Four:
    Tickle / Wild Charge / Power Whip / Sucker Punch @ Sitrus Berry

    ITS THE TICKLER SAVE YOURSELVES.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Rapid Spin is such a valuable assest that I think giving it to Malaconda would just make it overall better for every kind of team and not promote it being used on sun anymore than rain. And that is no good because we want it to be used on sun because that's our concept! Or was it to equalize types? I'm not sure nowadays. Also, I gave it Scary Face because he's a meanie and likes to scare people.

    Free toast :toast:
  21. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    COUNTER ARGUMENT

    The concept is to increase the usage of underused types of pokemon.

    Stealth rock is one of the biggest factors limiting the use of specific types of pokemon; having an SR weakness is a huge flaw that often banishes otherwise good pokemon to the lowest tiers.

    Stealth rock contributes to the use of steels especially, and to a lesser degree types like ground and fighting, and holds back the use of fire types (RELEVANT), ice types (which, granted, aren't huge fans of son), bug types (Ehhh, not fans of sun either, other than Volc), and flying types. I want you to go look at those types and tell me how many of each there are in OU. It's not many, except for maybe flying types, but that's a very common type and thus it's not shocking there would be a decent selection good enough for OU. And yes, Mence and Dragonite contribute to that, but they're just two pokemon.

    There's the argument that it gives the pokemon too much general utility, but I wouldn't put to much weight into that. The benefits to sun are huge, more than enough to outweigh any benefits it would have to teams that don't need to deal with an SR weak weather starter as the weakest link.

    Wait shit Hail has an SR weak weather starte-
  22. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2013
    Messages:
    105
    Final Submission
    Right now I have 31 VGMs, and 65 moves total.

    Moves will be bolded if they are VGMs
    Moves will be underlined if they are repeated or clone VGMs.
    Moves will be italicized if they are outclassed VGMs

    Level Up Moves (open)
    0- Absorb
    0- Constrict
    0- Lick
    0- Tail Whip
    0- Wrap
    0- Captivate
    0- Charm
    5- Razor Leaf
    11- Mega Drain
    16- Bite
    22- Fake Tears
    27- Glare
    33- Ice Fang
    33- Thunder Fang
    38- Slam
    44- Giga Drain
    49- Crunch
    55- Nasty Plot
    60- Sucker Punch
    66- Power Whip


    TMs & HMs (open)
    HM01- Cut
    TM05- Roar
    TM06- Toxic
    TM10- Hidden Power
    TM11- Sunny Day
    TM12- Taunt
    TM15- Hyper Beam
    TM17- Protect
    TM21- Frustration
    TM22- SolarBeam
    TM27- Return
    TM32- Double Team
    TM41- Torment
    TM42- Facade
    TM44- Rest
    TM45- Attract
    TM46- Thief
    TM48- Round
    TM66- Payback
    TM68- Giga Impact
    TM82- Dragon Tail
    TM86- Grass Knot
    TM87- Swagger
    TM89- U-turn
    TM90- Substitute


    Tutor Moves (open)
    Covet
    Dark Pulse
    Foul Play
    Giga Drain
    Seed Bomb
    Sleep Talk
    Snatch
    Snore
    Synthesis
    Worry Seed


    Egg Moves (Field/Grass) (open)
    Aromatherapy
    Extrasensory
    Follow Me
    Leaf Blade
    Punishment
    Pursuit
    Quick Attack
    Rage
    Rapid Spin
    Scary Face
    Sweet Scent


    Notable Inclusions:

    Dragon Tail/Roar
    I included both of these phazing moves because to difference of damage and hitting through subs makes them both different options for different sets. Let's say you were to run a spread with attack investment, you could take advantage of the damage you might be doing with dragon tail, but Dragon tail is still also viable whether you've got attack investment or not. The decision is up to the Malaconda user. Do they want to be doing damage, or do they want to phaze through subs? Both options of phazing allow for a wider variety of viable sets with phazing moves, which allows for a wider range of choices for spots on sun teams to free up.

    Glare
    Glare keeps malaconda from being set-up bait. With how many support pokemon are easy set-up bait already, Glare can keep malaconda from being set-up bait. It will not make malaconda OP, especially since it has to use up space on its moveset to fit glare anyway, so glare becomes more of a support move to help the rest of the team. It can't do much to save it from its counters, and it can keep pokemon like landorus-i from thinking they can come in and set up on malaconda. Glare will only work on the switch in, and even then it won't always work due to not having perfect accuracy. All of its threats can still counter it, even scizor who ends up slower than it (if glare even hits).

    Rapid Spin
    The top spinner used on sun teams right now is Donphan. Lets face it, Donphan is really a bad sun suporter. It can't switch in to anything. Malaconda can switch into stuff, and it has viable reliable recovery options unlike donphan, who like I said before, can't switch in safely. Giving malaconda Rapid Spin will free up the space donphan takes up as a spinner.

    Notable Exclusions:

    Spikes
    Spikes has its pros and cons, and claimed OP attributes. I really don't want spikes on malaconda, I mean I really, really don't want it, and I'll tell you why. Malaconda would make a pretty below average spiker imo, and spikes just makes it set-up bait. Spikes also hits everything except flying types, and lets say scizor comes in, HP worn down by spike damage, malaconda can OHKO with HP Fire on the switch in, and that is not the direction we want to go with this CAP. Spikes allows us to threaten things we shouldn't, and allows us to threaten things that should be threatening malaconda, and not the other way around.
  23. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    Final Submission

    VGMs marked in Bold
    Repeated, Equivalent, or Outclassed Moves marked in Italix


    Level Up
    Show Hide
    Total VGM: 7
    Total Moves: 12

    1 - Rapid Spin
    1 - Vine Whip
    1 - Pursuit
    1 - Wrap
    6 - Pursuit
    12 - Wrap
    18 - Grass Knot
    25 - Sucker Punch

    30 - Slam
    36 - Leaf Blade
    42 - Crunch

    48 - Wring Out
    57 - Power Whip
    66 - Punishment

    Every move in Malaconda's Level Up list is a damaging move, and that's a conscious decision on my part. There's a flavor reason for giving Malaconda an aggressive streak despite its bulky stats and Harvest ability, but there is a more important, competitive reason too: I wanted to make players choose between Malaconda's different support and coverage options, as far as they exist. That's why I loaded up the Level Up list with Grass and Dark STAB moves, to give Malaconda access to as many as necessary, anything to get the job done.

    It's a short list with only 12 moves total, following a Normal->Grass->Dark progression. Here come Leaf Blade and Power Whip for Grass STAB and Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Crunch and Punishment for Dark STAB. Rapid Spin is also here because it's essential for Malaconda's role, as I see it, a pivot, a spinner and a Pursuit trapper, so here comes the spin. The rest are present for flavor - Wrap, Slam and Wring Out are common among Pokemon with snake-long bodies, including the Snivy line, while Vine Whip and Grass Knot are both alternative Grass takes on how Malaconda can use its tail.



    TMs/HMs
    Show Hide
    Total VGM: 16 (1 repeat, 1 equivalent pair)
    Total Moves: 29 (1 repeat, 1 equivalent pair)

    TM05) Roar
    TM06) Toxic
    TM10) Hidden Power

    TM11) Sunny Day
    TM12) Taunt
    TM15) Hyper Beam
    TM17) Protect
    TM21) Frustration

    TM22) SolarBeam
    TM27) Return (= Frustration)
    TM32) Double Team
    TM42) Facade
    TM44) Rest

    TM45) Attract
    TM46) Thief
    TM48) Round
    TM53) Energy Ball
    TM66) Payback
    TM67) Retaliate
    TM68) Giga Impact
    TM82) Dragon Tail
    TM86) Grass Knot
    (Repeated from Level Up)
    TM87) Swagger
    TM89) U-turn
    TM90) Substitute
    TM93) Wild Charge

    TM95) Snarl
    HM01) Cut
    HM04) Strength

    The TMs were, for the most part, required moves, including a fair few Special moves that Malaconda can't use well due to its unimpressive SAT stat. Nonetheless, it picks up Payback for another Dark STAB option, as well as Electric coverage in Wild Charge, U-Turn for pivoting, Dragon Tail AND Roar for phazing, Rest for the HarvestLumRest, Sunny Day to support its team, plus Toxic, Taunt, Torment, and Swagger to attempt some disruption. It's pretty minimalist without giving up on even the special moves because I really don't think Malaconda needs more than the basic tools it gets.



    Move Tutor
    Show Hide
    Total VGM: 9 (1 outclassed)
    Total Moves: 12 (1 equivalent pair, 1 outclassed)

    Bind (= Wrap)
    Dark Pulse
    Foul Play
    Giga Drain

    Heal Bell
    Iron Tail
    Knock Off

    Seed Bomb
    (counted here, but not in total since it's outclassed by Leaf Blade)
    Sleep Talk
    Snore

    Spite
    Synthesis
    Worry Seed

    These are all the moves I could give Malaconda from the Tutors list with an honest feeling they belong here. Dark Pulse and Giga Drain because of Typing and despite SAT stat, Seed Bomb is here despite being outclassed by Leaf Blade. Foul Play and Knock Off are good pick ups though, Iron Tail for flavor and because Steel coverage doesn't matter to our many counters, Sleep Talk and Snore are given to pretty much every Pokemon already, Spite and Worry Seed are flavor, Bind is a repeat of Wrap.

    Finally, however, Synthesis appears here, giving Malaconda an alternative form of recovery besides (Lum)Rest. I feel that's alright so that regardless of its STAB, coverage, or support options, Malaconda players will be able to choose its form of recovery freely, whatever best suits their strategy. Both of them reach their maximum potential on Sun teams so I'm not afraid of Malaconda becoming too alluring for other teams.



    Egg Moves
    Show Hide
    Total VGM: 4 (1 equivalent pair)
    Total Moves: 8 (1 equivalent pair)

    Egg Groups: Grass/Dragon
    Avoiding the Field group where Smeargle would make Move Illegalities obsolete, Grass/Dragon were the two groups that made the most sense next.

    Aromatherapy (= Heal Bell) (Vileplume, Paras, Chikorita, Roselia, Petilil, Deerling, chain breed from Hoppip or Cherubi)
    Beat Up (chain breed from Ekans)
    Glare (Ekans, Seviper, Snivy or Druddigon)
    Haze (Ekans, Seviper, chain breed from Dratini, Swablu, or Feebas)
    Night Slash (chain breed from Seviper, Axew, or Druddigon)
    Poison Powder (Bulbasaur, Oddish, Paras, Bellsprout, Exeggcute, Tangela, Chikorita, Hoppip, Shroomish, Cottonee, chain breed from Foongus)
    Scary Face (Charmander, Bagon, Axew, Druddigon, Deino, chain breed from Ekans, Seviper, or Gible)
    Screech (Ekans, Treecko, Seviper, chain breed from Paras or Deino)
    Sweet Scent (Bulbasaur, Oddish, Bellsprout, Chikorita, Roselia, Tropius, Carnivine, Maractus, Foongus, chain breed from Paras, Sunkern, Lotad, Cherubi, Snivy or Petilil)
    Stun Spore (Oddish, Paras, Bellsprout, Exeggcute, Tangela, Hoppip, Shroomish, Roselia, Cottonee, Petilil, chain breed from Carnivine or Foongus)

    Glare and Stun Spore are both in Egg Moves and counted as separate VGMs due to different cross-legalities, though basically picking up other Grass moves means the player will add Stun Spore, while picking up snake moves they'll choose Glare.



    Overview
    Show Hide
    Total VGM: 32/33 (35 when including 2 equivalent pairs and 1 outclassed move)
    Total Moves: 62/65 (including 3 equivalent pairs and 1 outclassed move)


    Physical Attacking Moves:
    Power Whip
    Leaf Blade
    Seed Bomb

    Vine Whip

    Foul Play
    Crunch
    Sucker Punch

    Night Slash
    Payback
    Pursuit

    Punishment
    Thief
    Knock Off
    Beat Up

    U-Turn

    Wild Charge

    Iron Tail

    Dragon Tail[/b]

    Giga Impact
    Frustration
    Return

    Retaliate
    Facade
    Strength
    Slam
    Cut
    Wrap
    Bind
    Rapid Spin


    Special Attacking Moves:
    Solarbeam
    Giga Drain
    Grass Knot
    Energy Ball

    Dark Pulse

    Snarl

    Wring Out
    Hyper Beam
    Round

    Hidden Power


    Other Moves:
    Rest
    Synthesis
    Protect
    Substitute
    Aromatherapy
    Heal Bell

    Glare
    Stun Spore
    Toxic

    Swagger
    Attract
    Double Team

    Roar
    Haze

    Sunny Day

    Taunt
    Spite
    Worry Seed

    Sleep Talk
    Snore

    Poison Powder
    Scary Face
    Screech
    Sweet Scent



    Noteworthy Included Moves
    Show Hide
    Power Whip, Pursuit, Crunch - Competitively they are the bare minimum Malaconda will need to perform its duties of killing Latis and Politoed.

    Leaf Blade - An alternative to Power Whip with reliable accuracy, and more powerful than Seed Bomb, which I think mattered in terms of EV allocation to 2HKO max/max defensive Politoed. Besides, it also has precedence on the Snivy line so I couldn't not give it to Malaconda.

    Seed Bomb - It was required, so it's in, although Leaf Blade outclasses it.

    Sucker Punch - Access to priority drastically changes how the slow Malaconda plays, allowing it to get the jump on certain threats, as well as deal a final hit before dying when it's been cornered already. Sucker Punch can be worked around when it's Malaconda's sole Dark STAB, however, and Sucker Punch + Pursuit does not exactly substitute for a reliable Dark STAB either, and yet both are often necessary to carry.

    Payback - A required move and potentially Malaconda's strongest Dark STAB against many faster threats, including the Latis. Also Payback+Pursuit provides a fair alternative to Sucker Punch+Pursuit.

    Foul Play - A Tutor move that is valuable for giving fully defensively EVed Malaconda an option against physically powerful Pokemon, who are likely to be its switch-ins considering CAP5's weaker DEF stat. It's still not going to let it sweep teams, but catching a Landorus or Dragonite on the switch with a neutral-hitting powerful Foul Play can leave a dent, if a player really wants to damage them.

    Punishment - To deter SubCMLatias from setting up on Malaconda. A simple move with one job, and it does it well.

    Beat Up & Night Slash - Late additions that aren't absolutely necessary but I prefer to give Malaconda more Dark STAB variety as opposed to Type coverage or support moves.


    Wild Charge - To handle Gyarados and Tentacruel a bit better than our neutral Dark STAB would. It's not a big reason, but better than other moves' reasons to be here.

    Iron Tail - This one is pretty much pure flavor, unless you're deathly afraid of Kyurem, and even then, Malaconda isn't the best answer to it either.

    U-Turn - Essential to allow Malaconda to perform its pivoting duties and maintain momentum for Sun teams. Not much more to add for this move, except that I like it better than its alternatives.

    Dragon Tail/Roar - To give Sun teams a phazing option that they didn't really have before. Dragon Tail works even under Taunt while Roar bypasses Substitutes, I let the players decide for themselves.

    Screech - It gets mentioned here because this one move has flavor ties with snakes and acts as a pseudo-phazing move the way Yawn would, but without giving Malaconda a sleep move. By Screeching the switch-in, Malaconda gets to turn some 2HKOs into OHKOs, especially those hanging on Leftovers/Rain Dish etc. recovery, and combined with Pursuit can checkmate the target (although many foes will outspeed it to at least strike one blow back before dying). It may not see much use, but I definitely prefer it to Yawn.

    Haze - If Malaconda has phazing, Haze is a natural pair to round out the utility, plus it has its precedence on other snakes.

    Rapid Spin - Essential for Malaconda to perform a dual role on Sun teams, being their spinner in addition to being a defensive pivot or Pursuiter. Frankly, I can't see how a Malaconda set could forego this move, it wouldn't be BAD per see with other moves it can use for support, but it would no longer be the CAP5 we had been making for days.


    Synthesis - An alternative healing move that keeps Malaconda tied to sunlight for its effectiveness, even moreso than HarvestLumRest does. I don't believe it'll see too much use when LumRest is also available, but it's there if players want it.

    Aromatherapy & Heal Bell - Lets Malaconda be the team's cleric. Now Sitrus + Synthesis + Cleric move can be a viable alternative to LumRest, maybe, at least the option is there.

    Glare & Stun Spore - I eschewed Type coverage to give these moves precedence because I believe that they better keep Malaconda in its defensive pivot role. You can't slap a Choice Band on Glare Malaconda like on Ice Fang Malaconda and just go for the sweep. Meanwhile, they address the threat posed by many offensive Pokemon without completely crippling them, and since Malaconda already walls Special attackers while fearing Physical ones, its main counters prefer getting paralyzed than Burned by its Sun teammates anyway (except for Fire types that we want to encourage).

    Scary Face - Flavor for the snake and an alternative way of cutting the enemy's Speed, since Malaconda has paralysis already, this one is outclassed but can have situational use, on, who knows... status-healing targets or ones already inflicted with a different status?

    Taunt - A weapon against enemy walls to stop them from healing, spreading hazards, or anyone performing setup, as well as attempts to phaze away Malaconda. Against its counters, this won't matter since they're better off attacking anyway, but it can play mind-games with this move, especially in combination with Sucker Punch.



    Noteworthy Excluded Moves
    Show Hide
    Wood Hammer - It's a good move by all means, but next to Power Whip, one of the two isn't needed. Normally I'd let the players themselves choose but when tight on space I just decided myself, and flavor-wise the Power Whip's vine makes more sense than a hammer of wood anyway.

    Fling - Flung Berries have 10 base power, and Malaconda carrying another item is not making use of Harvest - the ability tying it to sun teams. On that basis I consider Fling anti-concept and excluded it from my TM list.

    Ice Fang & Thunder Fang - Wild Charge available via TM is enough for the Electric move and Ice coverage on Malaconda is more than I can honestly give it; in general what is the point of coverage on a defensive pivot that will carry U-Turn anyway and can just switch out to a teammate that can break past the threat the coverage was meant for?

    X-Scissor & Bug Bite - Their power and utility is inferior next to U-Turn so Malaconda will manage with just one Bug move in its arsenal. Also it's going to be funny seeing which Malaconda risks the speed-tie clash of U-Turns and if it happens who comes out on top.

    Poison moves - They're a flavor consideration either way, but Anacondas aren't venomous while Arbok and Seviper are Poison types to get their moves. Malaconda has Toxic, and that'll have to do.

    Super Fang - Too much of a general answer to every threat Malaconda could face. In particular, Scizor and Heatran that would x4 wall its Grass STAB would really hate to lose half HP on top of hazard damage from just switching into Malaconda. Maybe Super Fang doesn't let it beat them 1on1, but after that exchange they'd be easy pickings for the rest of the team.

    Extremespeed - Sucker Punch is enough, Extremespeed would enable a Choice Band sweeper set with Grass move / Dark move / Extremespeed / U-Turn (or Wild Charge). It's not world-breaking, but I'm not leaving it a chance of happening, either.


    Baton Pass & Volt Switch - I gave Malaconda strictly zero boosting moves, so Baton Pass is entirely inferior to U-Turn in every way, plus it prevents the Pinch Berry abuser set, gimmicky though that may be. I wouldn't feel right supporting that strategy, plus it distracts Malaconda from its role as a sun team pivot. Meanwhile, Volt Switch is a joke with U-Turn allowed, and even its flavor doesn't fit on a grassy snake.

    Mean Look and co - VGM that's simply not worth the slot. Malaconda can try Wrap/Bind instead, but a pivot is not meant to stay in and trap folks, plus it has no setup to do even if it gets the chance.

    Destiny Bond, Healing Wish, Grudge & Memento - Malaconda helps sun teams better by staying alive than by using a self-sacrificial move. If you're on your last legs, you have full recovery with LumRest anyway, and if you'd get outsped before you can heal, then you can't use those moves either and your best chance is Sucker Punch.

    Spikes - A move I initially added that I ended up excluding because it challenged Malaconda's other options: why bother attacking or statusing the incoming switch in when you can just lay down a layer of Spikes for the team? I prefer if Malaconda has to actually address the opponent in front, rather than ignore it and Spike-stack, whether it's by attacking, Pursuiting a guaranteed switch (especially Latis and/or Politoed), U-Turning out for momentum, healing for free, paralyzing, phazing, etc.

    Encore - Unlike Taunt, it can't be thrown on switch-ins and Malaconda is mostly too slow to use it effectively, unless someone is so stupid to set up in its face, and still then, it can Taunt, phaze, or attack, even with Punishment. Plus it'd have to go in the Level Up list, breaking the style I set forth originally (even Rapid Spin there was a stretch).

    Torment - A move I consider overall harmless but a distraction anyway, Taunt outclasses it in most every way that matters while the SubTorment set would distract Malaconda from its pivot role, so, Torment is out.



    Phew.... long post is long, but I wanted to make this from start to finish.
    The movecount should be fine, but if I went overboard, please point it out and I'll think what to cut.
    Next post I make I should probably give comments on people's movepolls, till then, good luck everyone.
  24. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    122
    @ Dracoyoshi,

    You what happens if a non-sun team attempts to use Malaconda against a sun team? Having a defensive pivot/spinner facing a team loaded with that's weak to boosted fire attacks is a serious liability.

    Malaconda works with sun, but not so much against it. Malaconda as a spinner will benefit sun regardless.
  25. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    Just for reference, everybody, these are the moves that are disallowed (I think). Hope this helps! :)

    Disallowed Attacking Moves
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    Flying-type moves (Breloom)
    Psychic-type moves (Toxicroak, Venusaur)
    Fighting-type moves (Normals, Hydreigon, Lucario)
    Ground-type moves (Tentacruel, Heatran, Jirachi, Lucario, Magnezone, Ninetales, Toxicroak)
    Rock-type moves (Ninetales, Thundurus, Volcarona)
    Fire-type moves (Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, Skarmory, Venusaur, Breloom, general sun goodness) (including Fire Fang and any special move stronger than Hidden Power)
    Other Ice-type moves (including Ice Shard)
    Natural Gift
    Megahorn (Breloom, Ferrothorn)
    Final Gambit
    Horn Leech
    Water-type moves


    Disallowed Non-Attacking Moves
    Show Hide
    Disable
    Gravity
    Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled
    Ingrain
    Leech Seed
    Light Screen / Reflect
    Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder / Spore
    Perish Song
    Rain Dance
    Stealth Rock
    Switcheroo / Trick
    Thunder Wave
    Toxic Spikes
    Trick Room
    Will-O-Wisp
    Wish
    Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish
    Belly Drum
    Bulk Up / Coil / Curse
    Dragon Dance
    Flame Charge
    Growth
    Shift Gear
    Swords Dance
    Quiver Dance
    Shell Smash


    Edit: Agile Turtle, I think Extrasensory is disallowed.
    sorry
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