1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Feb 22, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    298
    If your opponent is half-smart enough to realize you're probably going to switch out your Ninetales when standing in the rain, your opponent can switch back to Scizor as well. You are now losing the weather-wars in that all your momentum has left you. You can switch into another mon and then back into Ninetales, but likewise they can switch into Scizor and then Politoed, so you're at a loss for keeping the sun up. Now let's assume we don't even have Rapid Spin. Our momentum is not only lost, but Stealth Rocks are chewing out Ninetales on each switch in, meaning Politoed will eventually win out. We could switch to something else with Rapid Spin, but that still means your opponent still has a couple of turns to set up whatever they please while Ninetales and CAP5 are sitting out in fear. It becomes an ugly situation. All because we can't make the opponent wary of the potential of a Fire-type move.

    Give CAP5 a Fire-type move, and no longer can the opponent just send in Scizor and U-turn without a care in the world. We lower Scizor's usage, we heighten sun's usage, and we start to balance the weather war situation. Profit.
  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,588
    Why do people worry about Scizor? Doesn't any Pokemon get HP Fire, which when boosted by sun will surely take down Scizor?
  3. Sound

    Sound

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    218
    I really don't see the point in threatening Scizor. Most common Sun members either have a fire STAB, or carry a fire coverage move. I may be a bit rusty with sun (BW1), but I distinctly remember having an easy time with Scizor. This pokemon's purpose is to help Sun, giving it a way to beat Scizor would be redundant as Sun doesn't have trouble with Scizor to begin with. Not only that, but letting CAP 5 beat Scizor means it becomes better on weatherless and sand as well. Oh, how the plot thickens! If CAP 5 can beat all of rain single handedly, well, why not use it as your Rain counter on Sand/weatherless (other than one redundant STAB with Tyranitar, though we're going on the assumption that this thing beats Lati@s, so I'm guessing either high speed or SP, which combined with a Grass STAB that would differentiate it from Tyran)? This thing needs to be reliant on Sun somehow, and I see no better reason than Scizor weak.

    Also, if you can't tell from the above, I firmly believe we should be able to threaten Politoed, and the Lati@s. Keldeo? I'm iffy. It wasn't around when I played sun. I know that I despise it when I play weatherless (or Tyran disrupter weatherless). I'm of the opinion that CAP 5 should, under no circumstances, give Keldeo any switch ins. However, we also shouldn't be able to stop one that's already. Most sun teams have Ninetails, along with Volc and/or Venu. If used along Venu, a fighting move would let Venu come in and force Keldeo out. If they go for an HP Ice to hit both CAP and Venu, they risk giving Ninetails (or the less risky for sun player Volc) a switch in to bring back sun. While this means the Sun players needs to predict to win, which is risky, it's not like its an unwinable scenario.

    For steel types. Heatran yes, Ferro and Skarm no.
  4. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    7,171
    The 4x weakness will absolutely force CAP5 to switch out, only for Scizor to use U-Turn and switch to a proper counter (read: Politoed summoning Rain back). Rhys DeAnno's example shows how bad things can get; in the end, Ninetales loses 35% HP without Stealth Rock and playing conservatively. And you didn't even really touch Scizor and Toed. That's horrible. CAP5 may be weak to Steel-types as much as it wants to, fine, but Scizor is too good a pivot for Rain teams for us to let it come in on CAP5 any time.
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,588
    Scizor has 65 Base Speed, so outspeeding it will be a non-issue, and if the CAP can tank a BP it will be able to OHKO Scizor with HP Fire, preventing it from mindlessly spamming U-turn.
  6. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    7,171
    Yes, but this will also depend on CAP5 having enough Sp. Atk to kill Scizor with a HP Fire on Rain, won't it? Even Latios needs full investment.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,588
    No it isn't necessary. It would be good, but Scizor will not always have its weather up.
  8. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,530
    My take on this is that we want to be countered by things you'd see on an opposing Sun team, and threaten things you'd see on other teams. To this end, I think we should threaten:

    Scizor
    Jirachi
    Ferrothorn
    Latias
    Latios
    Toxicroak
    Politoed
    Tentacruel
    Gastrodon
    Rotom-W

    And be threatened by:
    Venusaur (check)
    Heatran
    Ninetales
    Volcarona
    Infernape
    Rotom-H
    Hydreigon

    To do this I would support Fire coverage, simply because Rain teams are not going to use Fire coverage CAP 5 to take out opposing Ferrothorn. While there are arguments to be made against CAP5 threatening itself, the brute fact is that Fire/Grass/Dark coverage does fairly well against non-sun Pokemon and is mediocre against sun-loving Pokemon, and there was always the issue of running HP Fire in Sun to take advantage of the boosted STAB and the ability to wipe out Scizor. In this case why not just go indy and make it official. Fire coverage hits the threats we want it to hit, encourages sun, and doesn't hit things we don't want CAP5 to threaten.

    Salamence and Dragonite are kinda neutral since they get powerful physical and water special attacks with the stats to back them up, at least in Rain, whereas Hydreigon really prefers Fire Blast over Aqua Tail or Surf.

    The simple fact is you can't counter all the Dragons, so we should counter the dragons that thrive best in the opposing playstyle to the best of our ability, and encourage Dragons that can thrive in ours. Using out Dark STAB to counter the Latis accomplishes this while leaving Dragons in general to other means. Dragons that choose to run Fire Blast will not generally run on Rain teams.
  9. Ignus

    Ignus

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    124
    One thing we have to remember is that with the typing Grass Dark we almost certainly will be threatened by a variety of types. Being weak to Fire, Flying, Fighting, Ice, and Poison with a 4x weakness to Bug means that no matter what we do our mon will have lots of Problems switching in. Factor that in with the fact any Pokemon will U-turn will basically get a free turn out of whatever you switch in against it.

    In other words, We will almost always loose the switch war without previously gained momentum.

    So, who can a Grass Dark CAP battler gain momentum on, strictly based on typing?
    Water Types
    Psychic heavy hitters (there's a lot of these!)
    Bulky steel types like ferrothorn, forretress (He doesn't learn U-turn), and metagross

    Who can't he?

    Anyone with U-turn, period. This includes Landorous, Scizor, Infernape, Mienshao, Celebi, and occasionally Jirachi, Gliscor, and Hydregion.
    Volcarona eats this typing alive.
    Every single dragon type in OU has a standard set that has a super effective move against it. This came be overcome with high defenses, but that would be both mediocre because of it's typing and somewhat useless because trying to counter every type it's weak against would be a waste of time and a waste of effort. It's Supposed to be weak to certain things. We'll just have to see how this turns out.

    More stuff to consider. Important to know what makes sense just because it's typing is so restrictive.
  10. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    If we want to threaten scizor while allowing other steel types to check/counter us, will-o-wisp. Would be a good option. If you are up against toed, spamming WoW has no real downside and would cause scizor to think twice before switching in
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,588
    WoW is certainly an option, but i don't see how it shuts down only Scizor. Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Jirachi all despise it. If it is ok for CAP to fare this good against Steel-types then by all means let's give it WoW.
  12. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    I thought Will-o-Wisp was a good idea too, until I ran the damage calculations. With 100 base HP and 100 base defense (both uninvested), CAP 5 is always OHKO'd by a burned CB Scizor. I think it is a good idea to look at ways to threaten Scizor outside of fire coverage, but this one doesn't look too promising and I haven't come up with any others yet.

    We seem to have most of Deck Knight's list of rain pokemon countered pretty well. Politoed, Rotom-W, and Gastrodon are probably not going to give us any trouble. With the right speed or bulk, CAP5 can easily kill Lati@s. Tentacruel can be beaten with enough firepower or a boosting move, although we may need to watch out for Scald burns.
    The rest of the list is more problematic. Scizor, Jirachi, Ferro, and Toxicroak take nothing from our STAB attacks. However, the first three are beaten outside of rain by the fire-type coverage moves brought up by a few people, so if we go that route, they're easily taken care of. Honestly, I'm not too worried about Toxicroak; if it actually gets used all the time to beat CAP 5, we can use Dugtrio to beat it just like we do to beat Heatran.

    As a side note, are we going to make CAP 5 both physical and special? Because we seem to be assuming that it is a good user of Pursuit, but HP Fire keeps being brought up as well. This is probably poll jumping, but I thought it might be relevant.
  13. DrRobotnik

    DrRobotnik

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    698
    During the last round of the typing voting I did a rather large write up (that took me almost an hour and was completely removed despite it being crucial to my reasoning) on type frequency in the tier, both in general and usage wise. I'm not gonna redo the chart, but the most used by a significant margin are Water, Steel, and Flying (followed closely by Dragon and Fighting), with the least used being Normal, Ice, Dark, and Ghost. Due to its typing, I can't see this changing much at all.

    Since I can't rely on it countering the types themselves, I must look at why these typed Pokemon are the most used. The answer is pretty obvious, of course, but lets have a look at the top 10 anyway. Let's look at the #1 most used Pokemon, Scizor. Scizor is a Bug/Steel type, great typing with its only weakness being 4x to Fire. Because of its Fire weakness, it benefits from rain, and it can survive perfectly fine in sandstorm due to its Steel typing. This makes it a great choice for those two weather conditions as well as ones fighting weather. Approximately 8 out of every 9 teams would benefit a Pokemon like this (Weatherless is ~49% of all teams, Sandstorm and Rain combined are ~39%, 88% is about 8/9). Politoed, obviously, is all but required to use Rain. Ferrothorn is much the same as Scizor in how and why it benefits from Rain and Sandstorm, and it resists Water, nullifying the power boost Water attacks get. Jirachi, same deal. Dragonite's typing lets it work excellently in both Rain and Sun (and, of course, teams trying to fight those) due to its resistance to both Fire and Water. Heatran is great in Sun because its Water weakness is nullified and it shuts down the other team's Fire boost, as well as Sandstorm due to not taking sand damage. Tyranitar is pretty obvious, same reason as Politoed. Breloom not only benefits from Rain because of its Fire weakness, but also gets STAB super effective against the Water and Steel types you're likely to find there (same with Sandstorm). Latios functions well in Rain and Sun for the same reason as Dragonite, but it also gets STAB super effective on those pesky Fighting types that give the Rock and Steel types that benefit from Sandstorm such a hard time.

    After looking closer at this, I realized that actual typing isn't the reason why they're useful, although it is the reason why they're being used. My point being, the Pokemon and types that do the best usually do it because of weather.

    "Robotnik", you might be asking, "are you saying this Pokemon should counter weather?" Kind of. If you look at my walkthrough of the top 10, you'll notice a lot of mentions to what types of weather it does well in, but also quite a bit about how well they do against the weather. So, I'm not saying it should counter weather directly. I'm saying that it should indirectly counter weather by countering the Pokemon that are good in it. To do this, we'll have to look at what Pokemon are good in weather and why. Let's look at the primary effects of each kind of weather (excluding hail because seriously who's doing that anymore):

    Rain:
    -reduces all Fire attacks' damage by 50%
    -boosts all Water attack's damage by 50%
    -activates certain abilities, alters the effects of certain moves

    Analysis:
    The Pokemon affected the most positively from being on this team are Pokemon that are weak to Fire, have an ability activated by it, and/or can use a move well that's positively altered by it. These Pokemon would usually be Water, Steel, Bug, Flying, Grass, and Electric. The Pokemon that would be best against it would resist Water and have super effective STAB on common Rain types, would also benefit from having an activated ability or a positively boosted move. These types are usually Grass, Fighting, Water, and Dragon.

    Sun:
    -reduces all Water attacks' damage by 50%
    -boosts all Fire attack's damage by 50%
    -activates certain abilities, alters the effects of certain moves

    Analysis:
    The Pokemon affected the most positively from being on this team are Pokemon that are weak to Water, have an ability activated by it, and/or can use a move well that's positively altered by it. These Pokemon are usually Fire, Grass, and Ground. The Pokemon that would be best against it would resist Fire and have super effective STAB on common Rain types, would also benefit from having an activated ability or a positively boosted move. These types are usually Water, Ground, and Dragon.

    Sandstorm:
    -damages any Pokemon that isn't a Ground, Rock, or Steel type or have certain abilities by 1/16th of their health per round
    -boosts the Special Defense of Rock types by 50%
    -activates certain abilities and changes the effects of certain moves.

    Analysis:
    The Pokemon affected most positively from this team would be Pokemon that aren't damaged by the effect and/or have an ability activated. These types are usually Ground, Steel, and Psychic. The Pokemon that would be best against it would have super-effective STAB, aren't damaged by the effect and/or have an ability activated. These Pokemon are usually Ground, Grass, Water, and Fighting.

    "Holy Miltank, Robotnik! That's 11 types, that's the grand majority of them!" Correct you are, me. However, I'm not saying we should have to counter all these types. No, that would surely put us in Uber. Let's look at the types mentioned the most in this:

    Water: 4
    Grass: 4
    Ground: 4
    Steel: 2
    Dragon: 2
    Fighting: 2

    Those were the ones mentioned more than once. Therefore, I think that this CAP should counter Water, Grass, and Ground (which it basically already does), while at least checking Steel and and Dragon.

    As for what it should be countered/checked by, lets see what wasn't here:

    Normal: 0
    Dark: 0
    Ghost: 0
    Ice: 0
    Rock: 0
    Poison: 0

    So, yeah, those. For those, I think it would be most realistic to try for it to be countered by Normal, Dark, and Poison.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,588
    The point is not to tank a U-turn, but to not allow Scizor to switch-in for free.
  15. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    330
    The point of giving CAP 5 will o wisp is to discourage scizor from switching into our mon. It doesnt matter that scizor can still KO us even when it is burned because we can switch out into heatran or whatnot. The real benefit is that no scizor would want to switch into CAP 5 when doing so may cripple it for the rest of the game. So, if we want to prevent scizor from walking all over us, WoW would be a good option

    EDIT: ninja'd
  16. Yilx

    Yilx Sad
    is an Artistis a Smogon IRC AOP

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,179
    One thing I'd like to say this to not think in terms of things like "We want X to counter CAP5." or "We should not give CAP5 move Z in order to let X switch in for free". W should be focusing more on thinking of how CAP5 will interact with the proposed "checks". By virtue of it's typing, we already know most bug-types can switch in and threaten with their STAB, but how many of them can, really? Caterpie aside, all of them can force CAP5 out with a bug move because of the quadraple weakness. Heck, some mons might even run coverage moves in order to do this; we might see HP Bug Keldeo more often for all we know.

    Don't forget our concept too; we're aiming to lower the usage of more popular types while raising the usage of lesser used types.
  17. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    You are completely right, flamerunner. I guess I didn't think the options through enough, Scizor definitely wouldn't want to switch into anything carrying Will-o-Wisp. Actually, it could take care of Jirachi and Ferro pretty well too. This could actually work really well...
    Yeah, basically, I was wrong and WoW looks like a great idea.
  18. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    3,626
    I think some people are completely missing the point of this thread.

    We are not here to discuss HOW to defeat certain pokemon, we are here to discuss IF we should beat certain Pokemon. A small amount of polljumping may be required, but do not do any major discussion of what to give this CAP to cover its to-counter list or how to give it drawbacks that make it lose to its counters list

    For example, I disagree with Deck on a lot of his list. Most of that looks good in theory, but as Ginga pointed out, i am more than a little wary of making cap5 a catch-all rain counter that also sucks against sun, because we definitely don't want to swing too hard in the other direction and break sun. I think giving sun the tools it lacks to be successful is good, but that slapping them all on the same Pokemon is bad—cap5 should be taking a supportin role with its teammates, not stealing the show. I think that situations like Rhys outlined are good, because they show give-and-take between the teams, not sun hanging rain in the town square by its small intestine. As such, i think it is perfectly fine to be countered by certain rain pokemon, like Rachi, ferro, scizor, and loltoxicroak (who if he's threatening your sun team you should rethink your life).

    EDIT: while I'm here I should give a mention to threadhoging. Please don't. Threadhogging is defined as making a flurry of posts with a few other users in response to each other instead of the community at large. I know it's acceptable in other places, but we try to shy away from it here. Just to give you an example there have been two instances already on this page—not to call out these users: between alexwolf and mariowithlasers at top, and between alexwolf, forestflamerunner, and toomuchsugar right above me. It just makes it hard to hear other people amidst the noise. Thanks.
  19. XXTheDingoXX

    XXTheDingoXX

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    32
    Sorry for my late reply, I've had a hectic day.

    Ah, but see there's the problem. Sun teams really need a trump card, not just a small boost.

    What would happen if there were no Stealth Rocks on the field? We'd be caught in an endless loop until Ninetales is defeated and Politoed wins the weather war. We can't let this happen.

    But this is what I was talking about before, with U-turn. If we don't switch pokemon, Scizor can 1HKO our CAPmon with U-turn. If we do switch, (for example into Ninetales) Scizor can then use U-turn (doing low damage) and switch in to something that resists/counters it, like Politoed.

    If we have something like WoW, then it will discourage Scizor from switching in on our CAPmon. while Scizor could still easily beat our CAPmon while burnt, it is shut down when facing things such as Ninetales and Heatran that can resist an attack and then 1HKO it. which it will change the flow of battle, and give Sun Teams the momentum they desperately need.

    As many others agree, I think this is a great post and is perfect for steering us in the right direction.
  20. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Yilx: I doubt we'd be seeing HP Bug Keldeo when it can just throw around its Fighting STAB, surely.

    And for those of you rambling on about killing Scizor with HP fire...

    0 SpA [75 Base Special Attack Pokemon] Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in sun: 288-340 (83.96 - 99.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I'm hoping to make a point here: If Cap 5 ends up being physically offensive, Hidden Power fire isn't going to be OHKOing Scizor, especially if the sun is down.

    Though it'll certainly punish it for switching in, I'm not sure I'd be using an entire attack slot just for that...
  21. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,915
    So, before this thread gets too far, I just want to address some things and give a few opinions of my own. First thing's first: there has been a tendency among people to suggest that we threaten, not just things that we have no way of beating with typing alone, but that we threaten many of these things of various kinds all at the same time. And I want to let you know right here and now that that is not going to work. We have tried that in past project and it never works. You don't get a Pokemon that can stop a large group of completetly unrelated things while still keeping what can beat it under control. While it is fine to threaten some things that its typing has nothing to help us against, deciding that we should be beating multiple different Pokemon, none of whom our typing helps us beat, just begs the question of why we chose this typing to begin with.

    And to start in on my personal feelings, we did not choose this type because we wanted to beat Steels. Sun teams do not have problems with Steel Pokemon. Ninetales (and the other fire partners it typically has) has double STAB boosted fire moves. Venusaure usually runs HP Fire or EQ. Dugtrio is a sun staple. If one thing is obvious, it is that, Sun really doesn't care about any Steel type not named Heatran. So why, when looking at the things that wall us naturally, are we trying to get around Steel types? The way I see it, lacking such an ability to beat them makes us more reliant on team support, which will only make sun teams more attractive to it.

    In particular, I fail to see the reasoning for wanting to beat Scizor. Scizor is probably the best check we could have. True, having Scizor as a counter sucks for any Pokemon, but we are not here to make a generic Pokemon that is not threatened by powerful things. Sun teams don't care too much about Scizor, and it is not like beating Scizor will help sun or cripple rain or anything. Scizor is one of those generically good Pokemon, and it will see a ton of use on every single team type regardless of its interaction with CAP5. I refuse to let us fall in the trap of trying to do too much and simply giving our Pokemon everything. As such, we have to pick our battles carefully and go for what we really need for the concept. And I am having a hard time seeing how removing Scizor as a counter does anything to this effect.

    Now, as for what we should beat, water types are probably the most obvious, followed by Latios and Latias. These are what we chose our type for, and I don't think anyone will dispute the usefulness of doing it. I'd also like to see us threaten electric types, along with some ground types. Psychic types such as Alakazam and Reuniclus I also see as a good targets.

    By now you have probably noticed one thing: everything that I would like to threaten we are helped out against by our typing in some fashion. This is very much intentional. As I have said a few times already this project, we will best help sun by freeing up teamslots. And, in order to do that, role is the most important thing. I don't think we need to go very far beyond what our typing naturally threatens in order to do this. Threatening waters and Lati@s already does a ton of good things for sun. And simply trying to threaten every single Pokemon that gives sun trouble is not only unfeasible, but fails to address the real needs of this concept.

    On the flipside of things, I feel it is fairly obvious what we should want to threaten CAP5. Pokemon with Bug moves, Steel types, Breloom, Volcarona. Toxicroak is another other good example. While it may be only seen in rain, if we are forcing rain to run a Poison typed Pokemon more often, then are we not acomplishing the goal of raising a lesser used type? Now I don't expect that simply being countered by Toxicroak will have a noticable effect on its usage, but I think that this is a much better attitude to have towards this concept than "It's good in rain. Kill it."

    Now, this is by no means a decision on what our counters will be. I urge anyone who disagrees with any of the above to try and convince me why something different is necessary to the concept. In addition, moving along, I'd like to hear more thoughts on other Dragon types outside of Latios and Latias, as well as any other Pokemon not yet addressed.

    EDIT: You should also listen to this:
  22. nyttyn

    nyttyn Blink Blink
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    925
    I think we're going to have to be really careful of Kyurem-B in the dragon department as he can completely and totally wreck a sun team's day. We're going to want to kill this motherfucker, and he should be put on the "want to beat" list. Anyone who's ever fought a Kyurem-B with a sun team can agree with me here.

    this might seem light on reasoning as to why we want Kyurem-Bastard dead, but his bulk, resistances, and the fact that sun teams are damned helpless against him when he's behind a sub all scream problem. Especailly since he can either fuck you with dragon claw and mostrous power or just nail your venusaur and other chlorophyl abusers with ice beam. Very nasty mon, crushes sun teams, needs to be handled since sun teams don't really have any nice way of handling him.

    I'd say also do something about Garchomp but honestly w/e fuck Garchomp we won't be able to nail him without lowering out checks and counters too much. As they say you can't win em all.
  23. DrRobotnik

    DrRobotnik

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    698
    If we're not supposed to be taking on large groups of Pokemon (types), then why is the goal to reduce usage of large groups of Pokemon (types)?
  24. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    544
    With an extra team slot for sun teams i don't think dragons will be as much of a pain as they are now for sun. The reason lati@s is so threatening to sun currently is that the only thing that outspeeds it on a sun team is venusaur, which cannot ohko it. And on top of that sun teams usually have room for only one steel (heatran) so once that is taken out of the way lati@s will just have a field day.

    This extra slot plus being able to shut down lati@s with cap5 should be all we need to make sure dragons don't destroy sun teams. I could see us running plenty of things in out extra slot that will help us put pressure on dragons such as mamoswine, terrakion, landorus-i, additional steel types, or dragons of our own are just a few viable options. And if worst comes to worst we can run hp ice on venusaur to take out all remaining dragons besides the kyurems. Plus with cap5 not hitting any other dragon super effectively, and obviously not resisting any dragon moves (and being weak to common ice or fire coverage on dragons) i would say that it is fine for use to be threatened by all dragons besides the lati twins. Specifically, we should be cleanly 2hko'd or potentially ohko'd after hazards by any unboosted high base power dragon attacks with little coverage to threaten back outside of hp ice, but be able to potentially end a sweep through a status move or something along those lines.
  25. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    142
    While Kyu-B is a total jerkwad, I think we might want to choose our battles and not try to fight him with CAP5. He's very bulky, and we don't have a SE attack on him with our stabs. He often runs either Ice Beam or Outrage, both of which are probably going to be unpleasant for CAP5 to tank at best. SE coverage options on him include Rock, Fighting, Steel, and Dragon:

    • Steel doesn't really advance CAP5's other goals at all and likely wouldn't find a place in his moveset
    • Fighting is its own can of worms, but I'm more and more of the opinion that CAP5 shouldn't counter Steels directly so that's probably out
    • Dragon is a bit counterproductive because we're already looking to threaten Lati@s with our Dark STAB, so it's going to be tricky to fit a traditionally poor attacking type (nonSTAB Dragon) onto our movesets.
    • Rock could be an interesting option if we also wished to check Mence and Dnite, though it might be tough to fit on a lot of sets
    So it looks like if we check Kyurem-B, we're bringing Salamence and Dragonite along for the ride, along with anything else that's weak to Rock (Ninetales, Volcarona, Tornadus, Thundurus-T maybe some other stuff).
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)