thread's wrapping up so final thoughts ganj: an "ultimate spinner" is a powerful tool, but it's far from broken. You simply need to look at all the posters above (reach, lolcat) to see some evidence as to why. Assuming a set of Power whip / pursuit / spin / recovery(or w/e), you allow so many common threats to sun in that it's almost embarrassing—well worth the spin, probably, but not fun. You claim that it's an all around "water counter," but when you look, most waters are only slightly threatened. Rotom-W? We won't enjoy a WoW or Volt Switch. Keld? Physical STAB to the face. Gyara? Physical STAB to the face. Cloyster? Physical STAB to the face. This leaves it beating or kinda beating Tenta, Jelli, Starmie, and Politoed, and considering it loses to most non-waters on a rain team, it's not a "rain counter" at all. CAP5 is fulfilling three very, very specific niches on a sun team—ToedKiller, LatiKiller, and Spinner—all incredibly important niches, but no wide swath of utility that would push it or sun into broken territory (especially when you consider we are surrendering donphan/forry's role of overall dragon check) furthermore, I am not overly worried about cap5 being used on other types of teams /because/ its niches are so specific. i mean in theory, any team that needs a toed killer, a lati counter and a spinner will be able to employ cap5 (not if we give it chloro *rubs hands together evilly*), but what needs all three of those roles? typically, only sun and weatherless balance teams. Tyranitar is the lati counter on every sand team, rain teams don't need a toedkiller, ho teams arent overly worried about spinning. If we increase the usage of only sun and weatherless balance, we will probably end up boosting underrepresented types in the process of boosting underrepresented playstyles. as an afterthought, being the best at removing hazards would boost the usage of fire, ice, and bug, three rare types in ou. and removing hazards 100% reliably may be cool but it's not broken—the colossoil playtest demonstrates this (i know you weren't around for it but ask anyone who was) reach, lolcat, others: See ganj's and ginga's arguments for why i am wary of giving this thing extra coverage. While I just finished telling ganj that its confinement to specific niches would keep it from breaking sun, I'm not about to turn around and give it coverage moves that turn it into a catch-all "we fix every problem sun gives us with coverage!" doug: i already told you on irc, but a great post that i think really does sum up the direction for this concept. as to address your question at the end of the post: "If we end up filling the role of SR Handler, is there anything currently dealt with by existing Sun team SR Handlers that we MUST deal with to fill the role, that is NOT already indicated by Dark/Grass typing or already handled by other members of Sun teams?" Sun teams function via maintaining a frail offensive pressure on their opponent, and if it's reversed at any time, they often crumble. Spinning is the ultimate forfeit of momentum, as erisia and reachzero pointed out above me. As such, CAP5 must be extremely wary of letting in any Pokemon who threatens most or all of a standard sun team which Venusaur (or the rest of the team) cannot handle—these being dragons and Rock Polish Landorus. I would prefer not to have any of these things get free setup on CAP5 (though being able to kill it is OK).