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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Mar 11, 2013.

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  1. Spiffykins

    Spiffykins

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    After giving it more thought, I realized Infiltrator could potentially make CAP5 an excellent Banded Pursuit trapper, should it end up with the move. Considering the stat spread, it's very reminiscent of Banded Spiritomb in RU. That isn't necessarily a problem in itself, but unfortunately I fear this too could easily be taken advantage of by rain teams looking to give sweepers, especially Keldeo, an easier time. Potentially limiting our movepool options in exchange for a niche secondary ability doesn't seem worth it to me.
  2. BrianFantana

    BrianFantana

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    What I assume you mean by 'superior' in this case is that LumHarvest makes Leaf Guard (and Water Veil, etc.) completely redundant, and this is entirely not the case - what they give CAP5 is a reduced fear of status while running Leftovers. You might argue that Leftovers recovery isn't a big deal, but it's actually quite pertinent where the most major threats CAP5 needs to address, Lati@s and Politoed, are concerned. When running Leftovers, defensively-invested CAP5's chance of being 2HKOd by Specs Latios Sun-boosted HP Fire and Specs Toed's Focus Blast is pretty low - less than 30% for both last I checked - without Stealth Rock damage, and with Rocks it still avoids the 2HKO from Life Orb Latios's HP Fire.

    On top of the general passive benefits of Leftovers, this makes them quite an attractive option. Harvest/Sitrus is superior in terms of passive healing, sure, but it forgoes any kind of status protection. LumHarvest offers much better status protection, but your only form of healing then is recourse to Rest (or Synthesis, Recovery etc.), which at 55 base Speed aren't always an option. That's why both Leaf Guard and Water Veil are worth considering for CAP5, as I argue on the first page - in combination with Leftovers they offer a reasonable compromise between the benefits of Harvest/Lum and Harvest/Sitrus sets (and without Leftovers, afford some small benefits when running offensive sets or oddities like Heat Rock, which should be unlikely to comprise much of CAP5's usage anyway).

    So, onto Water Veil, the only thing that still 'needs discussion'. I think the best approach to take is to compare it with Leaf Guard, the most similar thing on the shortlist. Literally the only thing I think Water Veil has over Leaf Guard is the ability to stop Politoed's Scald from burning - in every other way, Leaf Guard's sun-dependence is beneficial, keeping CAP5 on-track conceptually. The risk of usage on Sand Teams, who would love a great rain counter and particularly a Scald switch-in, definitely exists with Water veil, and while CAP5 might not be a perfect Sandmon, Sand teams don't lack teamslots the way that Sun teams do, so they can comfortably cover its weaknesses. Politoed's Scald can be protected against by LumHarvest well enough anyway so I don't think Water Veil is really necessary - its fairly minor risks still outweigh its benefits.

    Sticking with Leaf Guard, although everything on the shortlist is a viable alternative - Leaf Guard is simply more obviously directed towards the concept, encouraging sunlight and helping CAP5 perform the role of a pivot by letting it switch in on Scalds and status moves.
  3. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    So, what you're saying is, Leaf Guard would overshadow Harvest? Okay, maybe not, but its possible. I see where you're going at, and I get your logic, but I don't believe Leaf Guard would be the best. As a niche ability, I believe we'd overshadow Harvest and maybe have too many of these running around; granted, not as much as, say, SitrusStall or HarvRest, but still, niche doesn't mean "if you want two options at once."

    Essentially, the proposed Leftovers + Leaf Guard set would act as a recovery berry (not as effective, but still) AND a Lum berry in Sun (just without the guaranteed chance; I'll elaborate on this later), while still leaving 4 free moveslots. One of the best uses of Harvest is a LumRest, but it breaks a moveslot, while with LG + LO, 4 moveslots stand strong. Likewise, it has no negative defects; just keep it in Sun and voila, a more passive Sitrus and free Lum. Who wouldn't want that on a Specially Defensive Physical tank? No burn, recovery...

    Keep in mind one other important factor: Leaf Guard doesn't work in Sun. While this has the bonus of directly encouraging Sun usage, other proposed abilities that don't directly benefit from Sun, such as Infiltrator, still have a better use in Sun than out of it (for the most part). Remember, we want a mon that benefits Sun inside and outside of their preferred weather if possible, and, though you could argue that Harvest does this, this is a niche ability. Niche doesn't mean rendered useless, it means if you feel like it and, from a competitive standpoint, does it benefit your team better or do you use it better.

    Now, ignoring the overkill of italics in the last paragraph, I have one more thing to say: I am not calling Leaf Guard a bad option, I'm calling it an outclassed option, due to how it overshadows the primary if you feel like it. You could argue, "well, it's niche, it needs to be better at something." Agreed, but it basically literally does more than Harvest does. A LumHarvest will be ignored in favour of a LG Leftovers, and that entirely eliminated one good option of our primary, not create another, which kind of makes it not niche but doing it differently, and better at that. Niche should be another option, not outclassing an existing option.

    But, I digress. I wouldn't be mad if LG got chosen, but I think some of the other options are simply better. It wouldn't break it or anything, and it would be fun learning about, I must admit. After all, CAP is about the process, not the result.
    I do agree that we should ignore Water Veil entirely though. I see no reason why it's better than Lum with Harvest, even with Leftovers. That doesn't make up for lacking Poison/Toxic, Para and Sleep protection, among others. I'd be fine with LG, but WV would kind of annoy me. Now it's not niche, but doing it worse, which is the opposite of what I critiqued LG for, but even worse in most battler's eyes.
  4. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    Leaf Guard is amazingly terrible and 100% worse than Water Veil, for the purposes of CAP5. The reason for this is very simple, and mechanical. Read the on-site description of how Leaf Guard works. You can find it here:

    http://www.smogon.com/bw/abilities/leaf_guard

    The key, then, is that if CAP5 gets burned by switching into a Politoed Scald, it will stay burnt. Activating Sun will not get rid of the burn. Considering that most of the point of having an anti-burn ability is to be able to shrug off Scald burns from Politoed, that makes Leaf Guard almost wholly useless to CAP5. Water Veil is much, much better. If people are uncomfortable with allowing CAP5 to avoid burns outside of Sun, No Competitive Ability is really just as good a choice as Leaf Guard, since Leaf Guard does very little for CAP5 anyway. If we do want a competitive ability for use with Life Orb and Choice items (let's face it, those are the only other items that can really compete with the berries; Leftovers is much, much worse to the point of not being worthy of discussion), Water Veil is in my opinion the slam dunk choice; no burns, ever.
  5. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    This also supports my argument against LG (though I disagree with Water Veil, as Burns, though potentially breaking, do nothing to a Lati@s countering specially defensive Leftovers set except nullifying the item, but that's for a different argument (Lums are better!)), which is here if you're too lazy to scroll up:

    I suppose I didn't clarify as well as you did on the topic. I didn't properly remind people of/explain the "doesn't heal, but protects" thing. I still think LumHarvest is vastly better than both proposed abilities, for the reasons that I will be mean and make you scroll up to see. Anyway, Lum heals all status 100% in Sun and still has a chance out of it, Water Veil is just Burn (but you never get burned, even with your item being Tricked or Embargoed or whatever, and it never hinders your attack for even 1 turn, which are pluses I guess), and LG guards in Sun but is useless the moment you are status'd outside of it, and also is easily countered by taking down sun.

    Wow, with all these underdog abilities on the table and Harvest taking the reins, this is similar to Cyclohm's unexplored abilities concept. I'm excited to see the results!
  6. Todd

    Todd

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    That's the point. unoriginal name. The secondary ability, if there is one, is supposed to be worse than the primary one. Water Veil provides focused protection from a prime pokemon we're supposed to check, while not overpowering the fact that harvest does it much better.
  7. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    How?

    Leaf guard isn't going to work unless it's already sunny. How exactly do we pivot in that situation?

    And who is going to be trying to scald us in sunlight unless they are insane? As for fire attacks, if we get hit by one of those in sunlight, a burn is the least of our worries. So this pretty much only helps in the situation where we wouldn't already be running lum berry and the enemy is in such bad shape that he's forced to use scald in sunlight or is trying to will o wisp us in sunlight.

    Leaf guard is, honestly, essentially non-competitive on this pokémon given its role. I mean it can also protect from other statuses, but those aren't really issues our CAP would ever consider giving up harvest for.


    Sheild Dust I think accomplishes what we want leaf guard to do in a better fashion while still being largely inferior to harvest.
  8. Unoriginal Name

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    Wow, after being so inactive during the stat spread, I'm posting huge walls of text frequently here... Anyway:
    I agree with your view on Leaf Guard, but disagree with Sheild Dust. Sheild Dust will encourage use on a Sand or even Rain team, about as much as on Sun, just because of the nature of it:

    As a Sand team maker, wouldn't I love having a mon immune to the omnipresent Scald burns that hinder are team oh so much, even in Sandstorm?

    As a Rain team maker, wouldn't I'd like my mons carefree when faced with Toxic and, in and out of Rain, high-powered or mid-powered Scald burns?

    As a Sun team maker:
    Even outside of Sun, "...a burn is the least of our worries." Different context, but same point. If we're hit by a logical attack, whether in Sun or out of it, and it isn't someone crossing there fingers for a Scald burn for a NFE attack, we're dead. Poison, Fire (which can burn, nonetheless), Bug, Ice and Fighting are our biggest weaknesses (hence why Toxicroak and Mollux will wreck us, and Scizor is a sure counter), and, besides Fire, none can burn. But, as you said, if we're hit by a Fire attack in or out of Sun (especially a high-power Physical one), "...a burn is the least of our worries."

    Again, not saying Shield Dust is a bad option, but there are better ones out there.
  9. alexwolf

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    Let's not forget that many Ninetales use Sunny Day as Politoed comes in, so sun can be up as the CAP switches into Politoed. Also many Politoed carry Toxic, as well as Tentacruel, and both don't hesitate to use it in sun.

    While i do agree that Water Veil is a little better than Leaf Guard for sun teams, because it allows the CAP to switch into Politoed when raining, my problem with it is that it is better than Leaf Guard for non-sun teams as well. A rapid spinner that beats Ghosts and can switch into them with ease without even fearing burns, is immune to Scalds burn and able to beat most Water-types, as well as handle Lati@s could find a really solid spot on sand teams, and i would prefer not taking the chance of the CAP having anything else except for very niche uses in non-sun teams. I prefer to give to the CAP a slightly worse ability both in and outside of sun, than give it an ability that is good both in and outside of sun.
  10. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

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    This argument came up lots in the primary ability discussion thread, but is oddly ignored here. Why not use it with ___ ability on Sand or, heck, even Rain or goodstuffs? In fact, your description of a CAP would be the perfect Rain counter on a goodstuffs, especially ones with a large Stealth Rock weakness. Sure, it'd be mostly used in Sun, but this'd give it more reason to be used outside of Sun, too, and we're already cutting it close with Harvest here. So, basically, I agree. Well, with the above argument against non-Sun, not about Leaf Guard.

    Anyway, last post here for a while, I promise! :P
  11. DetroitLolcat

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    Water Veil has one major problem is that it is a completely viable ability on a non-Sun team. Although Lum Berry and Harvest is still enticing for a CAP5 on a non-Sun team, Water Veil and an item of choice Scald-proof this Pokemon while providing extra power with Life Orb or Choice Band.

    People using CAP5 on a Sun team are not going to give up the godly power of Harvest in Sun (LumRest and Sitrus Abuse!!!) in order to use Water Veil. Non-weather teams, however, are going to be more inclined to use CAP5 because they can get a moderately powered Choice Band user with Scald immunity. Although CAP5's Attack leaves much to be desired, Scald immunity plus the options a Grass/Dark typing will likely have makes this a very good Pokemon to use as a Life Orber or Choice Bander on a Sand team or non-weather team. Sure, Water Veil allows CAP5 to switch in on Politoed, but that doesn't mean Water Veil CAP5 would be used on a Sun team. In fact, it would probably make CAP5 even more enticing to use on a Sand team that has trouble with Politoed since now it doesn't have worry about Scald.

    There is no Secondary Ability that would see use on a Sun team that isn't banned, and there's no point to tack on some fringe option like Water Veil or even Leaf Guard when Harvest is going to reduce those abilities to below statistically significant usage. No matter the ability we give to CAP5 in addition to Harvest, it's only going to be worth using on non-Sun teams (exactly what we set out not to do back in the Concept Assessment). Just keep it simple and move on with No Competitive Ability (unless you really like Leaf Guard)
  12. alexwolf

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    DLC i agree with what you say, but Leaf Guard will have merit in a possible 3 attacks + Rapid Spin set with max HP and Atk. Yeah this set might be rare, but it would still give a degree of versatility to the CAP, which sun teams will enjoy imo, while giving nothing to non sun teams. So even if we only make the CAP ever so little slightly better in sun teams and dont make it any better outside of sun teams, by giving it Leaf Guard, isn't this better than no ability at all?
  13. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

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    That is terrific reasoning.

    Shield Guard and Water Veil both give this mon viability outside sun and we do not want that. Yes, it would benefit sun teams to always have a sure Politoed switch, but we already have that with LumHarvest. Why give it to sand teams for no good reason?

    Besides, if you are running a sun team and you chose to run a Leaf Guard set over Harvest for whatever reason, obviously switching into Scald/Toxic Politoed isn't your biggest concern.
  14. B0B0

    B0B0

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    Isnt harvest outside of sun with lum essentially shed skin ? Im fairly sure sand will already use this if they are that worried about politoeds scalds
  15. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    Sheild Dust may not have any special ties to the sun, but being immune to a burn from scald is something inherently more useful to a rain-to-sun pivot. Does it have use outside of a sun team? Most certainly, but so does the pokémon in general. I mean, honestly there are many pokémon who are OU and who essentially get no use out of their abilities, even in edge cases, so it makes me wonder, if we HONESTY think that Sheild Dust is going to make this pokémon suddenly become a rain and sand team darling, does that REALLY have anything to do with Sheild Dust at all, or is it because the state spread and typing make it attractive. . . And would you really use it in place of, say, ferrothorn on a rain team with ANY ability?

    I am simply not buying that Sheild Dust is going to do anything to tip this pokémon over the edge for use on rain or sand teams. If you were going to use it with shield dust, you were probably going to use it WITHOUT shield dust. And I would like to see proof otherwise here.

    And, with harvest (and presumably fun interactions with natural gift/recycle ) I think that we have ALREADY succeeded in our goal of directing this CAP to sun teams and optimizing it as a rain-to-sun pivot. No one says we need to make it USELESS within other team make ups so long as we accomplish our goal as a sun team pivot
  16. Legend13

    Legend13

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    Shield Dust, as far as i'm concerned, is out of the question, for the same reasons as water veil, except even more so due the power of shield dust (immunity against all secondary effects!). For reiteration, the reason that water veil is out is that it can lead to CAP5 being used on other weather teams, which detracts from the concept.
    As a side note though, we never chose to counter sand; even that falls to rain now, and our concept was to create a type equalizer, not a pure sun mon.
    Since all the abilities that would be superior to harvest are banned (and for good reason), we could just go with No Competitive Ability. Or if we really want a competitive ability, we could just go with Leaf Guard or Sticky Hold.
    If CAP5 proves to be such a threat that Dual Screens become common, then we could use Infiltrator, but that is the ultimate niche ability for this CAP.
  17. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    If it helps sand teams counter rain teams by allowing it to come in on scald as a pivot then it is STILL fulfilling its base concept. If. It let's it function on a weatherless team by allowing it to come in on boosted scald without fear, that helps it fulfill its purpose to some extent. Shield Dust helps it safely come in on scald safely to counter most water types in really any circumstance . . . And that is part of the goal of this CAP which should be viewed as a positive. And that skill is inherently going to be most useful on sun, and possibly sand teams.

    And added plus, though, is that if this CAP alone isn't enough to make sun teams viable or counter rain teams enough, it helps the CAP maintain some level of usefulness at at least countering water types in more general / generic situations, which at least is a consultation that partially fulfills its purpose
  18. Sphoofle

    Sphoofle

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    Hi, long time lurker here. Just wanted to give my two cents on this Shield Dust business.

    IMO, I don't see why Shield Dust shouldn't be used. It has a niche, right, and it is not a sun dependent ability, also right. But be reminded that Harvest is only PARTIALLY a sun dependent ability. Let's be honest: Shield Dust would mainly be used to pivot against enemy Scalds. What else can this do? Fire Blast and Discharge are also 30%ers, but the former is not spammable (and CAP5 would probably die regardless) while the latter is barely seen. The 10%ers aren't even worth mentioning. It also SOMEWHAT gets a niche in helping sun teams against Jirachi, a common rainmon, when sun is not up. Though it has low defense, it can cripple Jirachi with a potential Wisp or Twave if it gets either those in the movepool. Those two are its only viable niches as far as I can think of. Sure, Shield Dust does those better than Harvest, but Harvest is miles better against all threats (Sitrus, LumRest) or against specific Pokemon that you have trouble with. (Resist berries) Shield dust also helps sand and goodstuffs with those niches, but those niches become useless if the other team is faced with sun itself--shield dust is quite useless against sun.

    But what about rain with Shield Dust? Scald is really the most annoying attack with a secondary effect, barring paraflinch. Since scald wouldn't be used against rain, that niche is gone. Again, I can't think of any other secondary effects that would threaten CAP5 other than the ones mentioned before. In fact, I believe that using CAP5 with Harvest is better than using most of the proposed abilities so far! (ie. Natural Cure, Infiltraitor, Sticky Hold) With a 50% chance of getting a berry back, it's a better Shed Skin if you're using LumRest, and Sitrus & co. can just use Protect/Substitute (or not) to sometimes get a berry back. I really think no matter what secondary ability we choose (that we've already discussed as viable; no adaptability or anything like that) Harvest overshadows Shield Dust under sun and in EVERY OTHER WEATHER, rain included, except in Shield Dust's specific niche, which really, would only be used for sand and sun.

    Lastly, more in support of Shield Dust: the abilities like Sticky Hold, Leaf Guard, etc. do have a legitimate niche, yes, but so does Deoxys-N as an offensive dual screener. Though, nobody uses Deo-N; the set was just shoehorn just so that Deo-N could have an analysis. I really don't those incredibly specific and mostly useless niches even making it in OO, while I could potentially see Shield Dust there. Why not put a suboptimal ability rather than a Deo-N level ability?

    tl;dr:
    Shield Dust is, at best, situationally useful both in and out of sun, as a rain pivot; barely has any justification in rain teams.
    Harvest is generally more useful than Shield Dust in almost every case in every weather; even rain.
    Every other ability is just useless + 1, essentially making them a non-competitive ability. To have a viable variety, at least accept a suboptimal Shield Dust.
  19. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP THE FORDS
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    The only reason to attempt a competitive ability is to give CAP 5 a definite niche that Harvest cannot accomplish. I do not believe that Leaf Guard does this. Infiltrator and Sticky Hold do this, but perhaps they are too situational to be worth it. Water Veil is our strongest non-NCA option, imo. I mean, sure, "good physical Grass" is a rare enough commodity that it could see use on arbitrary teams. However, my view on this is, if we screwed up with Harvest (in terms of making a sun mon), then we've already screwed up, and if we haven't screwed up, then Harvest is so good anyway that Water Veil wouldn't do enough to derail us.
  20. Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    So I definitely understand why thick fat got shot down despite being largely inferior to harvest, but what surprises me is the widespread support for leaf guard, not for flavor (which may be good) but because it is honestly being viewed as an acceptable niche ability when, in all honesty, it is essentially a non competitive ability in all situations (worthless outside of sun and wildly inferior to harvest in sun). Is there honestly any situation in which anyone would choose leaf guard over Harvest? (especially since harvest still works when the sun isn't out yet, on or off a sun team.)

    Shield Dust
    Infiltrator
    Sticky Hold
    Water Veil


    Those are abilities which practically define being niche picks in which you give up a large amount of the power and versatility of Harvest in order to not be tied to a berry and not be directly countered by Trick AND not really be made more attractive for a rain team than a sun or sand team.

    I suppose synchronize was borderline to making that list as well . . . But it just doesn't seem to do the job as well as water Veil or shield dust and it does other things better; things we don't want our CAP to do.
  21. Korski

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    It's not necessarily a bad thing to open CAP up to Sand teams and such with a vastly inferior ability like Water Veil. Our concept assessment got us into making a good Sunmon, and with Harvest, this Poke's best sets are still going to be best in Sun, a near-guarantee. However, the main issue for me, which has been brought up in several posts, is that Water Veil is a poor substitute for LumHarvest and covers no extra ground to the effect of pivoting into Politoed. The same charge can be leveled against Leaf Guard, which is a fair criticism; however Leaf Guard makes the slate for sticking to the Sunmon direction more thoroughly and without the weather-based paranoia that accompanies Water Veil. That said...

    The Slate:

    Ineffective Ability
    Infiltrator
    Leaf Guard
    Sticky Hold


    These abilities have received the most intelligent attention in the thread and have clear consensus as ideal secondary abilities, given the current circumstances of the CAP's design. Great work, all.

    This has been a very good discussion overall, with only a few sporadic, off-topic posts. In any case, these two ability threads have been a huge improvement over past projects, imo, to which I credit a more robust concept assessment and the clearer outlines produced by the last round of PRC topics. Jas will post shortly with any edits to the slate he so desires. Beyond that, happy polling!
  22. jas61292

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    Ok, so I'm on my phone, so I'll try and make this brief. Basically, I think that most of the arguments in favor of Water Veil were of equal quality to those of the other abilities. As addressed by Korski and capefeather, I feel concerns about being used in other weathers are overblown. Being used in sand is not bad in and of itself, and if we are used there, it will be with harvest as it is generally superior in any weather. I don't think another ability of the power level being discussed would have I'll effects on the Pokemon, and I think the support for Water Veil has been good enough to warrant a place in the vote.

    So, in short, +1 Water Veil.
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