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Discussion CAP 5th Generation Revamp: Colossoil

Discussion in 'Policy Center' started by Deck Knight, Jan 8, 2012.

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  1. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    This thread will discuss the revamping of Colossoil.

    The following is all canonical data for Colossoil:

    Colossoil Family Data (open)

    Colosshale:

    [​IMG]

    Height: 6' 11"
    Weight: 1205.6 lbs / 548 kg
    Evolution: Colosshale -> Level-Up with Dig -> Colossoil
    Type: Dark/Water
    Dark: Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks, better performance in all darkened and especially twilight conditions. Can use any Dark-type attack regardless of Attraction.
    Water: Water STAB; Can breathe and have excellent mobility when underwater, are less capable on land unless they are entirely amphibious. Ice Moves have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

    Abilities:
    Rebound: (Innate) When this Pokemon is released into battle, it senses the hazards the opponent has laid on the field and thrusts them to the other side of the arena where they will affect the opponent's Pokemon. The Pokemon does not suffer the effects of these hazards when it switches in.
    Storm Drain: (Innate) This Pokemon lures all water attacks to itself, altering their course away from partner Pokemon. It absorbs the water and increases its Special Attack by one (1) stage. This boost is maintained at the end of each round.
    Flare Boost (DW): (Innate) This Pokemon's Body can harness the heat from a burn into internal energy, fueling its mental capabilities. When Burned, the Pokemon's special attacks do two (2) more damage.

    Stats: 83 / 42 / 52 / 71 / 62 / 85

    HP: 100
    Atk: Rank 2
    Def: Rank 2
    SpA: Rank 3
    SpD: Rank 3
    Spe: 85
    Size Class: 4
    Weight Class: 9
    Base Rank Total: 16

    4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
    0 Leer
    0 Peck
    6 Bite
    11 Rapid Spin
    17 Body Slam
    22 Pursuit
    29 Bounce
    35 Dig
    41 Stockpile
    41 Swallow
    41 Spit Up
    48 Crunch

    Egg Moves:
    Double-Edge
    Encore
    Fake Out
    Fire Fang
    Fissure
    Flail
    Horn Drill
    Sand Tomb
    Screech
    Sucker Punch
    Thunder Fang
    Aqua Tail
    Bite
    Dive
    Earth Power
    Magnitude
    Water Spout

    4th Gen Tutor Moves:
    AncientPower
    Aqua Tail
    Bounce
    Dive
    Earth Power
    Knock Off
    Rollout
    Snore
    Sucker Punch

    4th Gen TMs:
    TM05 Roar
    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM12 Taunt
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM21 Frustration
    TM23 Iron Tail
    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM42 Facade
    TM43 Secret Power
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM49 Snatch
    TM58 Endure
    TM63 Embargo
    TM66 Payback
    TM78 Captivate
    TM79 Dark Pulse
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM82 Sleep Talk
    TM83 Natural Gift
    TM87 Swagger
    TM89 U-turn
    TM90 Substitute
    HM04 Strength
    HM06 Rock Smash

    Colossoil:

    [​IMG]

    Height: 8' 8"
    Weight: 1504.8 lbs / 684 kg
    Evolution: Colosshale -> Level-Up with Dig -> Colossoil
    Type: Dark/Ground
    Dark: Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks, better performance in all darkened and especially twilight conditions. Can use any Dark-type attack regardless of Attraction.
    Ground: Ground STAB; Immune to all electrical attacks, can Dig through almost any substance, Evasive Digging reduced from 3 per action Energy Cost to 2 per action, superior senses in darkened cave surroundings.

    Abilities:
    Rebound: (Innate) When this Pokemon is released into battle, it senses the hazards the opponent has laid on the field and thrusts them to the other side of the arena where they will affect the opponent's Pokemon. The Pokemon does not suffer the effects of these hazards when it switches in.
    Guts: (Innate) This Pokemon is tenacious and will work ever harder when under a status condition, raising the base attack power of all its physical attacks by two (2). Pokemon with Guts ignore the attack drop from burn.
    Pressure (DW): (Innate) This Pokemon’s presence fills the air with intense anxiety, and any damaging or status attack launched at this Pokemon costs the opposing Pokemon two (2) more energy to perform.

    Stats: 133 / 122 / 72 / 71 / 72 / 95

    Colossoil
    HP: 120
    Atk: Rank 5
    Def: Rank 3
    SpA: Rank 3
    SpD: Rank 3
    Spe: 95
    Size Class: 5
    Weight Class: 10
    Base Rank Total: 22

    4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
    0 Leer
    0 Peck
    6 Horn Attack
    11 Bite
    17 Rapid Spin
    22 Body Slam
    29 Pursuit
    35 Bounce
    42 Magnitude
    48 Stockpile
    48 Swallow
    48 Spit Up
    55 Crunch
    63 Megahorn
    70 Horn Drill

    Egg Moves:
    Double-Edge
    Encore
    Fake Out
    Fire Fang
    Fissure
    Flail
    Horn Drill
    Sand Tomb
    Screech
    Sucker Punch
    Thunder Fang
    Aqua Tail
    Bite
    Dive
    Earth Power
    Magnitude
    Water Spout

    4th Gen Tutors:
    AncientPower
    Aqua Tail
    Body Slam
    Bounce
    Dive
    Earth Power
    Knock Off
    Rollout
    Snore
    Sucker Punch
    Superpower

    4th Gen TMs:
    TM05 Roar
    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM12 Taunt
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM21 Frustration
    TM23 Iron Tail
    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM31 Brick Break
    TM32 Double Team
    TM37 Sandstorm
    TM42 Facade
    TM43 Secret Power
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM49 Snatch
    TM58 Endure
    TM63 Embargo
    TM66 Payback
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM71 Stone Edge
    TM78 Captivate
    TM79 Dark Pulse
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM82 Sleep Talk
    TM83 Natural Gift
    TM87 Swagger
    TM89 U-turn
    TM90 Substitute
    HM04 Strength
    HM06 Rock Smash



    Notes: The pre-vo movepools for 4th Gen are effectively shortened versions of Colossoil's movepool. This will be the case for all of the CAP projects.

    1. 5th Generation Moves

    Here is the list of 5th Generation Moves
    .

    5th Gen Moves currently on Colossoil:
    Mud Shot (Level-Up)
    Bubblebeam (Level-Up)
    Mud Bomb (Level-Up)
    Muddy Water (Level-Up)
    Water Spout (Egg)

    TM Moves: What TMS should Colossoil learn in addition to any currently existing ones.

    Note: Round is the only new universal TM.

    5th Gen (and other) added TMs currently on Colossoil:
    Venoshock
    Rain Dance (added TM)
    Smack Down
    Sludge Wave
    Sludge Bomb (added TM)
    Round
    Echoed Voice
    Quash
    Retaliate
    Bulldoze
    Dragon Tail
    Poison Jab
    Snarl

    2. Hidden Ability:

    The concept for Colosshale was to be a threatening special attacker the way Colossoil was a threatening physical attacker. To this end, Colosshale has Storm Drain and Flare Boost as its non-Rebound abilities., with Flare Boost being the Hidden Ability. Colossoil for its part was given Pressure for a Hidden Ability, since the other Whale mon Wailord gets it and there is some precedence on Dark types as well. I'm open to discussions on these, but do remember Colossoil is very powerful.

    3. Older Generation Moves

    Are there any older moves that were missed that might be viable on Colossoil?
    When Colosshale was created I filled it out with several "Mud" themed moves as well as Water Spout to round out its Water STAB. It's also the reason Colosshale recieved Poison coverage instead of Ice coverage, following Seismitoad and Keldeo in that regard. In doing the revamp, all of these are back on the table for discussion as to how best make Colosshale a water Pokemon that evolves into a Ground type without expanding the Water movepool too far out. And yes, before anyone mentions it, Drill Run will be in the revamp.

    Discussion Guidelines:

    Movepools are assumed to be stripped down to 4th Gen level. 5th Gen added moves are listed for convenience. If you propose an addition of a move, please provide at least two sentences with reasoning consistent with the flavor or competitive needs of the Pokemon. Do the same with abilities: The key here is reasoning. CAPs are already fairly strong, so if you can make a solid argument for an expansion (be it even something as simple as the Pokemon's theme.)
  2. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Why doesn't Colosshale have Surf? I understand a swimming land whale makes absolutely no sense, but it wouldn't be overpowered or anything.
  3. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    How does it Dragon Tail if its tail is always underground? In addition, is there any particular reason it can't Hone Claws?

    Wide Guard deserves consideration—Colossoil is a large, heavy mon capable of anchoring its allies against such attacks.

    (Diglett is an exception and you know it)
  4. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    GIVE IT DRILL RUN DAMMIT
  5. Gerard

    Gerard

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    I think it's because Water Spout is good enough, powerful, but because of it losing power over time, it's less powerful on average than surf (and aqua tail is there)
  6. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Deck has Drill Run RIGHT THERE:

  7. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    RE Surf: I agree with this, entirely. The fact that it also learns Dive also further reinforces this, cconsidering practically every other mon that learns Dive also learns Surf as well, iirc.

    RE Dragon Tail: Aqua Tail, Bounce, & any other Tail-based moves say hi, so Dragon Tail certainly makes sense.

    RE Drill Run: Yay...

    Some of my thoughts on some of the moves...
  8. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    We should also add Dig to Soil's levelup movepool-it's odd that Colosshale gets it via level but Soil does not.
  9. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    The original flavor behind not giving Colossoil Surf was that it was a landlocked Pokemon as Colosshale who bllied everything in shallow waters but didn't go out to sea. Granted these were off hand flavor discussions but still, Surf was not on there for flavor reasons, and I'm still inclined to go the Poison > Ice route on the TM movepool.
  10. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    OK, so no one has posted on this:

    Abilities:

    Do you have any suggestions for the non-Rebound abilities on Colosshale and Colossoil's Hidden Ability.

    I'll be working on movepool options, but otherwise people haven't contributed much outside reaffirming Drill Run.
  11. Gerard

    Gerard

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    He's already good with Pressure, if i had to go with good flavor abilities I suggest Arena Trap (He's like a big Dugtrio, and, with him being a someone who would fight supporter, trapping them really helps him doing that), Defiant (not Overpoweredand he seems like the kind of poke that would really like to fight back), or Unnerve (on the vain of Pressure, could be interesting against enigma berries but not overpowered), or my personal favorite Truant (yeah, I don't particulary like Colossoil, and he seems to be a bit of a slacker, or a fat bully)
  12. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    I don't mind Pressure.

    Very briefly though...

    http://veekun.com/dex/types/water
    http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search?move=@us,move:Surf&move=&move=&move=&type=Water

    It appears that of all Water-types, only Magikarp, Wingull, Rotom-W, Rainy Castform, and Surskit fail to learn Surf via HM. Of those, only Surskit and Wingull really seem like a valid precedent for witholding Surf from a Water-type that evolves into a non-Water-type (Magikarp is Magikarp, while Rotom-W and Castform are outliers anyway), and keep in mind Bugs traditionally don't get many of the "movement" HMs anyway. Even Tympole's family still gets Surf.
  13. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

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    IMHO, Collosoil is pretty much fine as he is. Pressure is a good fit for a Dark whale, and he doesn't seem wanting for any new moves apart from those already stated.
  14. UllarWarlord

    UllarWarlord

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    I honestly feel Pressure doesn't make much sense of Colossoil. It doesn't quite fit him or the concept imho. Sand Strength, however, seems to fit the whale better. It's a narwhal thing that burrows through ground. That makes it have perfect sense imo.
  15. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

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    I agree with the above. Pressure is fine and all, but Sand Force is just so much more flavorful.
  16. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    Sand Force is also excessively powerful on Soil, so I'm more inclined to keep Pressure. If not you're going to end up with the Sheer Force Cyclohm problem.
  17. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

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    .................. (open)

    ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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    OK, now serious. Colossoil was never given pressure, that's why we're discussing it. Also, juts because Wailord gets pressure (amusing you're right about that), that doesn't mean we need to give it to Colossoil. Finally, have you even looked at CAPASB before posting this?
  18. the dead mans oddysey

    the dead mans oddysey

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    now, i happen to disagree with everyone here on the ability.
    sure, pressure is a fine ability and all, and sand force is good too, but what about intimidate?
    i mean, it has the same flavour as pressure (scaring/intimidation), its more useful for collosoil in the long run, and unless your giving colloshale scald as an egg move, then i say intimidate.
  19. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    I'm going to be brief: 'Soil is one of those CAPs. The last thing we need to do is make Colossoil stronger.

    Pressure is plenty on something as ludicrously difficult to kill as Colossoil. And yes, MB, I am sure the maker of CAP ASB has looked at CAP ASB before.
  20. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

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    The dude deleted his post.

    EDIT: To make this post actually be helpful, I agree with Its A Random on all counts but just adding on to rain dance, make it available on Colosshale but not Colossoil imo.
  21. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    Keep Pressure on Colossoil, definitely imo. Pressure is more than enough on something like Colossoil, also, I would keep Flare Boost on Colosshale as well, considering its concept & it would also fit flavour wise (A Whale using a burn as fuel to become stronger).

    Although Pressure would also be acceptable alternative DW Ability on Colosshale as well, considering all the other whale-mons get it. It also would make sense flavour wise as well, because its size & bulk would make anything attacking it nervous & put them under pressure, like all the other Whale mons (Colossoil & the Wailord Line).

    No Intimidate or Sand Force for Colossoil's DW Ability, as it would make a powerful mon like Colossoil even more overpowered. Sand Force in particular, & we wouldn't want another Sheer Force Cyclohm, wouldn't we?

    As far as the current new 5th Gen TM's on Colossoil are concerned... (open)
    Venoshock - Keep, makes sense with Colosshale
    Rain Dance (added TM) - Doesn't really make sense imo on something like Colossoil, but Colosshale, I guess...Personally, I wouldn't keep this, being a land-locked line & not really enjoying water...
    Smack Down - I can see Colossoil using this move, so keep
    Sludge Wave - Poison > Ice for TM's on Colosshale, keep
    Sludge Bomb (added TM) - See above
    Round - Universal TM, keep
    Echoed Voice - Makes sense, keep
    Quash - Can definitely see Colossoil using this, keep
    Retaliate - Most mons can use this, & Colossoil would be no exception, keep
    Bulldoze - This line also learns Earthquake, so I cannot see why neither can't use Bulldoze, keep
    Dragon Tail - Aqua Tail, Bounce...No reason why neither cannot use this, so keep
    Poison Jab - This is fine as well, keep
    Snarl - Same as Echoed Voice, etc. keep
  22. Objection

    Objection

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    This isn't really possible, since if a pokemon learns a move at an early evolution but not a later one, it can still pick up the move in its later one.
  23. SimonSays

    SimonSays

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    If we're discussing abilities, then I'd like to propose an alternative that doesn't boost 'Soil too strongly.

    LightningRod.

    Flavour-wise, I do feel that 'Soil has more in common with Rhydon than Waillord, looking at their movepools and Ground-typing, with limited manipulation of water-type attacks. Just the other side of the "Grounded Whale" Coin.
  24. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Are we still doing this? If so, I'd consider a retool of Rebound. Automatically Magic Bouncing hazards after they've been laid is just a bit horrendous—especially in tournament play, where matches tend towards the larger side (3v3 or higher) with switching permitted.
  25. Terrador

    Terrador

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    Aye. Letting Colossoil bounce hazards for free when other mons have to take obscene damage to do so

    (hint buff Rapid Spin hint)

    is absolutely horrendous.
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