Discussion CAP 5th Generation Revamp: Colossoil

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Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
CAP Head Mod
#1
This thread will discuss the revamping of Colossoil.

The following is all canonical data for Colossoil:

Colosshale:



Height: 6' 11"
Weight: 1205.6 lbs / 548 kg
Evolution: Colosshale -> Level-Up with Dig -> Colossoil
Type: Dark/Water
Dark: Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks, better performance in all darkened and especially twilight conditions. Can use any Dark-type attack regardless of Attraction.
Water: Water STAB; Can breathe and have excellent mobility when underwater, are less capable on land unless they are entirely amphibious. Ice Moves have Energy Cost reduced by one (1).

Abilities:
Rebound: (Innate) When this Pokemon is released into battle, it senses the hazards the opponent has laid on the field and thrusts them to the other side of the arena where they will affect the opponent's Pokemon. The Pokemon does not suffer the effects of these hazards when it switches in.
Storm Drain: (Innate) This Pokemon lures all water attacks to itself, altering their course away from partner Pokemon. It absorbs the water and increases its Special Attack by one (1) stage. This boost is maintained at the end of each round.
Flare Boost (DW): (Innate) This Pokemon's Body can harness the heat from a burn into internal energy, fueling its mental capabilities. When Burned, the Pokemon's special attacks do two (2) more damage.

Stats: 83 / 42 / 52 / 71 / 62 / 85

HP: 100
Atk: Rank 2
Def: Rank 2
SpA: Rank 3
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 85
Size Class: 4
Weight Class: 9
Base Rank Total: 16

4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
0 Leer
0 Peck
6 Bite
11 Rapid Spin
17 Body Slam
22 Pursuit
29 Bounce
35 Dig
41 Stockpile
41 Swallow
41 Spit Up
48 Crunch

Egg Moves:
Double-Edge
Encore
Fake Out
Fire Fang
Fissure
Flail
Horn Drill
Sand Tomb
Screech
Sucker Punch
Thunder Fang
Aqua Tail
Bite
Dive
Earth Power
Magnitude
Water Spout

4th Gen Tutor Moves:
AncientPower
Aqua Tail
Bounce
Dive
Earth Power
Knock Off
Rollout
Snore
Sucker Punch

4th Gen TMs:
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM23 Iron Tail
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM49 Snatch
TM58 Endure
TM63 Embargo
TM66 Payback
TM78 Captivate
TM79 Dark Pulse
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
TM87 Swagger
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash

Colossoil:



Height: 8' 8"
Weight: 1504.8 lbs / 684 kg
Evolution: Colosshale -> Level-Up with Dig -> Colossoil
Type: Dark/Ground
Dark: Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks, better performance in all darkened and especially twilight conditions. Can use any Dark-type attack regardless of Attraction.
Ground: Ground STAB; Immune to all electrical attacks, can Dig through almost any substance, Evasive Digging reduced from 3 per action Energy Cost to 2 per action, superior senses in darkened cave surroundings.

Abilities:
Rebound: (Innate) When this Pokemon is released into battle, it senses the hazards the opponent has laid on the field and thrusts them to the other side of the arena where they will affect the opponent's Pokemon. The Pokemon does not suffer the effects of these hazards when it switches in.
Guts: (Innate) This Pokemon is tenacious and will work ever harder when under a status condition, raising the base attack power of all its physical attacks by two (2). Pokemon with Guts ignore the attack drop from burn.
Pressure (DW): (Innate) This Pokemon’s presence fills the air with intense anxiety, and any damaging or status attack launched at this Pokemon costs the opposing Pokemon two (2) more energy to perform.

Stats: 133 / 122 / 72 / 71 / 72 / 95

Colossoil
HP: 120
Atk: Rank 5
Def: Rank 3
SpA: Rank 3
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 95
Size Class: 5
Weight Class: 10
Base Rank Total: 22

4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
0 Leer
0 Peck
6 Horn Attack
11 Bite
17 Rapid Spin
22 Body Slam
29 Pursuit
35 Bounce
42 Magnitude
48 Stockpile
48 Swallow
48 Spit Up
55 Crunch
63 Megahorn
70 Horn Drill

Egg Moves:
Double-Edge
Encore
Fake Out
Fire Fang
Fissure
Flail
Horn Drill
Sand Tomb
Screech
Sucker Punch
Thunder Fang
Aqua Tail
Bite
Dive
Earth Power
Magnitude
Water Spout

4th Gen Tutors:
AncientPower
Aqua Tail
Body Slam
Bounce
Dive
Earth Power
Knock Off
Rollout
Snore
Sucker Punch
Superpower

4th Gen TMs:
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM23 Iron Tail
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM37 Sandstorm
TM42 Facade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM49 Snatch
TM58 Endure
TM63 Embargo
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM78 Captivate
TM79 Dark Pulse
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
TM87 Swagger
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash


Notes: The pre-vo movepools for 4th Gen are effectively shortened versions of Colossoil's movepool. This will be the case for all of the CAP projects.

1. 5th Generation Moves

Here is the list of 5th Generation Moves
.

5th Gen Moves currently on Colossoil:
Mud Shot (Level-Up)
Bubblebeam (Level-Up)
Mud Bomb (Level-Up)
Muddy Water (Level-Up)
Water Spout (Egg)

TM Moves: What TMS should Colossoil learn in addition to any currently existing ones.

Note: Round is the only new universal TM.

5th Gen (and other) added TMs currently on Colossoil:
Venoshock
Rain Dance (added TM)
Smack Down
Sludge Wave
Sludge Bomb (added TM)
Round
Echoed Voice
Quash
Retaliate
Bulldoze
Dragon Tail
Poison Jab
Snarl

2. Hidden Ability:

The concept for Colosshale was to be a threatening special attacker the way Colossoil was a threatening physical attacker. To this end, Colosshale has Storm Drain and Flare Boost as its non-Rebound abilities., with Flare Boost being the Hidden Ability. Colossoil for its part was given Pressure for a Hidden Ability, since the other Whale mon Wailord gets it and there is some precedence on Dark types as well. I'm open to discussions on these, but do remember Colossoil is very powerful.

3. Older Generation Moves

Are there any older moves that were missed that might be viable on Colossoil?
When Colosshale was created I filled it out with several "Mud" themed moves as well as Water Spout to round out its Water STAB. It's also the reason Colosshale recieved Poison coverage instead of Ice coverage, following Seismitoad and Keldeo in that regard. In doing the revamp, all of these are back on the table for discussion as to how best make Colosshale a water Pokemon that evolves into a Ground type without expanding the Water movepool too far out. And yes, before anyone mentions it, Drill Run will be in the revamp.

Discussion Guidelines:

Movepools are assumed to be stripped down to 4th Gen level. 5th Gen added moves are listed for convenience. If you propose an addition of a move, please provide at least two sentences with reasoning consistent with the flavor or competitive needs of the Pokemon. Do the same with abilities: The key here is reasoning. CAPs are already fairly strong, so if you can make a solid argument for an expansion (be it even something as simple as the Pokemon's theme.)
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
#3
How does it Dragon Tail if its tail is always underground? In addition, is there any particular reason it can't Hone Claws?

Wide Guard deserves consideration—Colossoil is a large, heavy mon capable of anchoring its allies against such attacks.

(Diglett is an exception and you know it)
 
#5
Why doesn't Colosshale have Surf? I understand a swimming land whale makes absolutely no sense, but it wouldn't be overpowered or anything.
I think it's because Water Spout is good enough, powerful, but because of it losing power over time, it's less powerful on average than surf (and aqua tail is there)
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
#7
RE Surf: I agree with this, entirely. The fact that it also learns Dive also further reinforces this, cconsidering practically every other mon that learns Dive also learns Surf as well, iirc.

RE Dragon Tail: Aqua Tail, Bounce, & any other Tail-based moves say hi, so Dragon Tail certainly makes sense.

RE Drill Run: Yay...

Some of my thoughts on some of the moves...
 

Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
CAP Head Mod
#9
The original flavor behind not giving Colossoil Surf was that it was a landlocked Pokemon as Colosshale who bllied everything in shallow waters but didn't go out to sea. Granted these were off hand flavor discussions but still, Surf was not on there for flavor reasons, and I'm still inclined to go the Poison > Ice route on the TM movepool.
 

Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
CAP Head Mod
#10
OK, so no one has posted on this:

Abilities:

Do you have any suggestions for the non-Rebound abilities on Colosshale and Colossoil's Hidden Ability.

I'll be working on movepool options, but otherwise people haven't contributed much outside reaffirming Drill Run.
 
#11
He's already good with Pressure, if i had to go with good flavor abilities I suggest Arena Trap (He's like a big Dugtrio, and, with him being a someone who would fight supporter, trapping them really helps him doing that), Defiant (not Overpoweredand he seems like the kind of poke that would really like to fight back), or Unnerve (on the vain of Pressure, could be interesting against enigma berries but not overpowered), or my personal favorite Truant (yeah, I don't particulary like Colossoil, and he seems to be a bit of a slacker, or a fat bully)
 
#12
I don't mind Pressure.

Very briefly though...

http://veekun.com/dex/types/water
http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search?move=@us,move:Surf&move=&move=&move=&type=Water

It appears that of all Water-types, only Magikarp, Wingull, Rotom-W, Rainy Castform, and Surskit fail to learn Surf via HM. Of those, only Surskit and Wingull really seem like a valid precedent for witholding Surf from a Water-type that evolves into a non-Water-type (Magikarp is Magikarp, while Rotom-W and Castform are outliers anyway), and keep in mind Bugs traditionally don't get many of the "movement" HMs anyway. Even Tympole's family still gets Surf.
 
#14
I honestly feel Pressure doesn't make much sense of Colossoil. It doesn't quite fit him or the concept imho. Sand Strength, however, seems to fit the whale better. It's a narwhal thing that burrows through ground. That makes it have perfect sense imo.
 
#17
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OK, now serious. Colossoil was never given pressure, that's why we're discussing it. Also, juts because Wailord gets pressure (amusing you're right about that), that doesn't mean we need to give it to Colossoil. Finally, have you even looked at CAPASB before posting this?
 
#18
now, i happen to disagree with everyone here on the ability.
sure, pressure is a fine ability and all, and sand force is good too, but what about intimidate?
i mean, it has the same flavour as pressure (scaring/intimidation), its more useful for collosoil in the long run, and unless your giving colloshale scald as an egg move, then i say intimidate.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
#19
OK, now serious. Colossoil was never given pressure, that's why we're discussing it. Also, juts because Wailord gets pressure (amusing you're right about that), that doesn't mean we need to give it to Colossoil. Finally, have you even looked at CAPASB before posting this?
now, i happen to disagree with everyone here on the ability.
sure, pressure is a fine ability and all, and sand force is good too, but what about intimidate?
i mean, it has the same flavour as pressure (scaring/intimidation), its more useful for collosoil in the long run, and unless your giving colloshale scald as an egg move, then i say intimidate.
I'm going to be brief: 'Soil is one of those CAPs. The last thing we need to do is make Colossoil stronger.

Pressure is plenty on something as ludicrously difficult to kill as Colossoil. And yes, MB, I am sure the maker of CAP ASB has looked at CAP ASB before.
 
#20
The dude deleted his post.

EDIT: To make this post actually be helpful, I agree with Its A Random on all counts but just adding on to rain dance, make it available on Colosshale but not Colossoil imo.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
#21
Keep Pressure on Colossoil, definitely imo. Pressure is more than enough on something like Colossoil, also, I would keep Flare Boost on Colosshale as well, considering its concept & it would also fit flavour wise (A Whale using a burn as fuel to become stronger).

Although Pressure would also be acceptable alternative DW Ability on Colosshale as well, considering all the other whale-mons get it. It also would make sense flavour wise as well, because its size & bulk would make anything attacking it nervous & put them under pressure, like all the other Whale mons (Colossoil & the Wailord Line).

No Intimidate or Sand Force for Colossoil's DW Ability, as it would make a powerful mon like Colossoil even more overpowered. Sand Force in particular, & we wouldn't want another Sheer Force Cyclohm, wouldn't we?

Venoshock - Keep, makes sense with Colosshale
Rain Dance (added TM) - Doesn't really make sense imo on something like Colossoil, but Colosshale, I guess...Personally, I wouldn't keep this, being a land-locked line & not really enjoying water...
Smack Down - I can see Colossoil using this move, so keep
Sludge Wave - Poison > Ice for TM's on Colosshale, keep
Sludge Bomb (added TM) - See above
Round - Universal TM, keep
Echoed Voice - Makes sense, keep
Quash - Can definitely see Colossoil using this, keep
Retaliate - Most mons can use this, & Colossoil would be no exception, keep
Bulldoze - This line also learns Earthquake, so I cannot see why neither can't use Bulldoze, keep
Dragon Tail - Aqua Tail, Bounce...No reason why neither cannot use this, so keep
Poison Jab - This is fine as well, keep
Snarl - Same as Echoed Voice, etc. keep
 
#22
EDIT: To make this post actually be helpful, I agree with Its A Random on all counts but just adding on to rain dance, make it available on Colosshale but not Colossoil imo.
This isn't really possible, since if a pokemon learns a move at an early evolution but not a later one, it can still pick up the move in its later one.
 
#23
If we're discussing abilities, then I'd like to propose an alternative that doesn't boost 'Soil too strongly.

LightningRod.

Flavour-wise, I do feel that 'Soil has more in common with Rhydon than Waillord, looking at their movepools and Ground-typing, with limited manipulation of water-type attacks. Just the other side of the "Grounded Whale" Coin.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
#24
Are we still doing this? If so, I'd consider a retool of Rebound. Automatically Magic Bouncing hazards after they've been laid is just a bit horrendous—especially in tournament play, where matches tend towards the larger side (3v3 or higher) with switching permitted.
 
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