Discussion CAP 5th Generation Revamp: Pyroak

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Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
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#1
This thread will discuss the revamping to Pyroak.

The following is all the canonical data for Pyroak line:

CAP 3: Pyroak
Concept: Bulky special-attacker with unique defensive typing

Embirch:


Height: 3’ 3”
Weight: 61.6 lbs / 28 kg
Evolution: Embirch -> Level 21 -> Flarelm -> Level 42 -> Pyroak
Type: Fire/Grass
Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Superior senses in volcanic or brushfire areas.
Grass: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming “powder” attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Superior senses in tall grass and forest areas. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

Abilities:
Rock Head: (Innate) This Pokemon’s hard body prevents it from taking recoil damage from moves such as Double-Edge, Flare Blitz, and Head Smash.
Battle Armor: (Innate) This Pokemon’s thick armor prevents it from taking critical hits.

Stats: 60 / 40 / 55 / 65 / 50 / 50

HP: 90
Atk: Rank 2
Def: Rank 2
SpA: Rank 3
SpD: Rank 2
Spe: 50
Size Class: 2
Weight Class: 3
Base Rank Total: 13

4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
0 Bullet Seed
0 Sweet Scent
5 Growth
9 Ember
13 Leech Seed
17 Flame Wheel
21 Giga Drain
25 Fire Spin
28 Petal Dance
34 Synthesis
37 Lava Plume

Egg Moves:
Aromatherapy
Counter
DragonBreath
GrassWhistle
Psybeam
Revenge
Sand Tomb
Water Sport

4th Gen Tutor Moves:
AncientPower
Block
Counter
Double-Edge
Earth Power
Headbutt
Heat Wave
Iron Defense
Low Kick
Mimic
Mud-Slap
Seed Bomb
Snore
Synthesis
Worry Seed


4th Gen TMs:
TM06 Toxic
TM09 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM19 Giga Drain
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Façade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM58 Endure
TM61 Will-o-Wisp
TM70 Flash
TM75 Swords Dance
TM76 Stealth Rock
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash
HM08 Rock Climb
Flarelm:


Height: 5’ 1”
Weight: 123.2 lbs / 56 kg
Evolution: Embirch -> Level 21 -> Flarelm -> Level 42 -> Pyroak
Type: Fire/Grass
Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Superior senses in volcanic or brushfire areas.
Grass: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming “powder” attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Superior senses in tall grass and forest areas. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

Abilities:
Rock Head: (Innate) This Pokemon’s hard body prevents it from taking recoil damage from moves such as Double-Edge, Flare Blitz, and Head Smash.
Battle Armor: (Innate) This Pokemon’s thick armor prevents it from taking critical hits.

Stats: 90 / 55 / 85 / 80 / 70 / 55 Speed

HP: 100
Atk: Rank 2
Def: Rank 3
SpA: Rank 3
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 55
Size Class: 3
Weight Class: 4
Base Rank Total: 16

4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
0 Bullet Seed
0 Sweet Scent
5 Growth
9 Ember
13 Leech Seed
17 Flame Wheel
21 Giga Drain
28 Fire Spin
32 Petal Dance
39 Synthesis
43 Lava Plume

Egg Moves:
Aromatherapy
Counter
DragonBreath
GrassWhistle
Psybeam
Revenge
Sand Tomb
Water Sport

4th Gen Tutor Moves:
AncientPower
Block
Counter
Double-Edge
Earth Power
Headbutt
Heat Wave
Iron Defense
Low Kick
Mimic
Mud-Slap
Seed Bomb
Snore
Synthesis
Worry Seed


4th Gen TMs:
TM06 Toxic
TM09 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM19 Giga Drain
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Façade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM58 Endure
TM61 Will-o-Wisp
TM70 Flash
TM75 Swords Dance
TM76 Stealth Rock
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash
HM08 Rock Climb
Pyroak:


Height: 6’ 9”
Weight: 369.6 lbs / 168 kg
Evolution: Embirch -> Level 21 -> Flarelm -> Level 42 -> Pyroak
Type: Fire/Grass
Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Superior senses in volcanic or brushfire areas.
Grass: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming “powder” attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Superior senses in tall grass and forest areas. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

Abilities:
Rock Head: (Innate) This Pokemon’s hard body prevents it from taking recoil damage from moves such as Double-Edge, Flare Blitz, and Head Smash.
Battle Armor: (Innate) This Pokemon’s thick armor prevents it from taking critical hits.

Stats: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60

HP: 120
Atk: Rank 3
Def: Rank 4
SpA: Rank 3
SpD: Rank 3
Spe: 60
Size Class: 4
Weight Class: 5
Base Rank Total: 20

4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
0 Wood Hammer
0 Flare Blitz
0 Bullet Seed
0 Sweet Scent
5 Growth
9 Ember
13 Leech Seed
17 Flame Wheel
21 Giga Drain
28 Fire Spin
36 Petal Dance
42 Iron Defense
42 Amnesia
48 Synthesis
54 Lava Plume
60 Zap Cannon

Egg Moves:
Aromatherapy
Counter
DragonBreath
GrassWhistle
Psybeam
Revenge
Sand Tomb
Water Sport

4th Gen Tutor Moves:
AncientPower
Block
Counter
Double-Edge
Earth Power
Headbutt
Heat Wave
Iron Defense
Low Kick
Mimic
Mud-Slap
Seed Bomb
Snore
Synthesis
Worry Seed

4th Gen TMs:
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM09 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM19 Giga Drain
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Façade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM58 Endure
TM61 Will-o-Wisp
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM75 Swords Dance
TM76 Stealth Rock
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash
HM08 Rock Climb


Notes: The pre-vo movepools for 4th Gen are effectively shortened versions of Pyroak's movepool. This will be the case for all of the CAP projects.

1. 5th Generation Moves:

Here is the list of 5th Generation moves.

Level-up movepool:
Are there any level-up moves that fit Pyroak?

5th Gen Moves currently on Pyroak:
Inferno
Incinerate

TM Moves: What TMS should Pyroak learn in addition to any currently existing ones.

Note: Round is the only new universal TM.

5th Gen (and other) added TMs currently on Pyroak:
Brick Break
Reflect
Flame Charge
Low Sweep
Round
Echoed Voice
Incinerate
Dragon Tail

2. Hidden Ability

Pyroak's current Hidden Ability is Chlorophyll, which does fit its typing and is generally conducive to its abilities, especially offensively. Additionally, Embirch and Flarelm were given Leaf Guard in lieu of Rock Head and their limited movepool did not include the high recoil moves. Should their hidden abilities be separated as they have been, or consolidated?

Potential abilities:

This is a list of abilities which fit Pyroak's typing and enhance either its offensive or defensive profile:
Chlorophyll
Drought
Flame Body
Flash Fire
Flower Gift
Harvest
Heatproof
Leaf Guard
Magma Armor
Solar Power
White Smoke

3. Older Generation Moves

Are there any older moves that were missed that might be viable on Pyroak? A check over the moves indicates that Pyroak possesses basically every relevant STAB, so unless there is good reasoning for a move (and remember, weaker moves do have properties in ASB that can be useful in combinations), it will be unlikely that Pyroak gets any other moves.

Discussion Guidelines:

Movepools are assumed to be stripped down to 4th Gen level. 5th Gen added moves are listed for convenience. If you propose an addition of a move, please provide at least two sentences with reasoning consistent with the flavor or competitive needs of the Pokemon. Do the same with abilities: The key here is reasoning. CAPs are already fairly strong, so if you can make a solid argument for an expansion (be it even something as simple as the Pokemon's theme.)
 
#2
Flame burst should be added somewhere on Oak for flavour reasons, but other than that, I'm happy with it's current Fifth Generation moves. It is pretty powerful, but it's average stats prevent it from being amazing. It has a nice movepool, and a fitting (and useful) DW ability.
 
#3
I agree with flame burst, but other than that I personally think Pyroak is fine: large movepool, good abilities, but limited from being truly dominant by subpar stats.
 

jas61292

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Moderator
#4
I agree with Flame Burst, and also, for similar reasons, might suggest Flame Charge, as most fire types get it. But those are both just really for flavor. Outside of that there is not much I think it needs.

As for the abilities, Chlorophyll seems like it was a good choice to begin with. The only other one that I think makes sense both competitively and flavor wise is Solar Power. As Pyroak was obviously designed more with Power in mind than speed, Solar Power might make even more sense. As long as the power doesn't seem like too much (which I doubt it would), then I might say that Solar Power is the best choice, with Chlorophyll being a close second.
 

Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
CAP Head Mod
#6
imo Solar Power is overpowering....think of Sheer Force Cyclohm....but with stronger Fire STAB.
The thing with Solar Power though is its more like a Life Orb to Sheer Force's all-typed Expert Belt.


Solar Power: (Innate) When in bright sunlight, this Pokemon burns solar energy and 1 HP/action to increase the Base Attack Power of all their special attacks by two (2).

So effectively in sunlight Pyroak would have a slow drain on its bulk, but would be more powerful, but only with special attacks. (Solar Power wouldn't boost, for example, Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer) It also loses the HP regardless of whether it attacks or not, although in sun it will have a boosted Synthesis anyway.

For fire moves, Inferno also seems appropriate.

What about grass moves? Leaf Tornado? (older moves: Magical Leaf?)

And as far as TMs for Pyroak, I think Bulldoze would complement Earthquake well. With rare exceptions, everything that learns EQ learns Bulldoze.
 
#7
With solar power, that would be the reason that I would buy pyroak, which not a good thing because that means I think I can exploit its advantage (in the case its DW ability). Basically, I'm trying to imply that the only reason I wold by Pyroak is if some part of it is broken.

Now, after my success with overcoat, I'm going to try and get Pyroak Harvest.

The thing is, grass = plants, plants = harvesting, so it makes sense flvourwise. And if your trying to make it a bulky attack then re-use of enigma berries could be very, very helpful.

Also, I'm not against sheer force, lol.
 
#8
With solar power, that would be the reason that I would by pyroak, not a good thing because that means I think I can exploit its advantage (in the case its DW ability).

Now, after my success with overcoat, I'm going to try and get Pyroak Harvest.

The thing is, grass = plants, plants = harvesting, so it makes sense flvourwise. And if your trying to make it a bulky attack then re-use of enigma berries could be very, very helpful.

Also, I'm not against sheer force, lol.
ummmmm.....what? Im sorry but for the most part i cant really understand what your saying for the first part of that, and i think that harvest should be reserved more for tree-like pokemon, or ones where the production of berries is more prevailant flavor-wise. Honestly i think that Chlorophyll is a fine ability since it rounds Pyroak out nicely, he has decent bulk for survivability, rockhead and very powerful recoil attacks to maintain a strong offensive front, and Cholorophyll to keep speed competitive. It keeps him a very nice, well-rounded poke that doesnt really need a whole lot of tweaking IMO. Flame Burst would make sense though, since its almost like a bomb going off on a foe, which would fit very nicely with Pyroaks arm-cannon concept.
 
#9
The thing with Solar Power though is its more like a Life Orb to Sheer Force's all-typed Expert Belt.


Solar Power: (Innate) When in bright sunlight, this Pokemon burns solar energy and 1 HP/action to increase the Base Attack Power of all their special attacks by two (2).

So effectively in sunlight Pyroak would have a slow drain on its bulk, but would be more powerful, but only with special attacks. (Solar Power wouldn't boost, for example, Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer) It also loses the HP regardless of whether it attacks or not, although in sun it will have a boosted Synthesis anyway.
Not convinced. Essentially Pyroak has to take one action every couple rounds to recover a ton of HP with Sun synthesis. And it's not like all it has is its stupidly powerful Fire Blast-it can make use of its other moves too. Fire Blast is just insanely powerful icing.
 
#10
While i have not a lot of experience with Pyroak, i think he should get Heat Crash, not really overpowered when you have recoiless Flare Blitz and fit's the Tank-like-image of Piroak, Chlorophyll is a nice ability since his speed is the only thing really lacking, but he shouldn't get Solar Power nor Flower Gift, he has enough recovery to easily make up for it (leech seed, giga drain, synthesis (or not at all in FG's case)) and with aromatherapy, Leaf Guard, is fairly useless (more considering Oak's speed to set up the sun), Harvest is the only one i think would be interesting on Pyroak with unlimited enigma berries, but i think Chloropyll is stilll the right choice

PS: +SpA Solar Power Pyroak's FB (in the sun) = (12 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 1.5) = 21.5 (before type effectiveness)
 
#11
I think Fire Pledge might be nice. It'd certainly be interesting to see the pledge moves in actual use, though they would by default almost certainly be used in combination.

Furthermore, I think Leaf Tornado would be appropriate. If we wanted to give it a powerful special move, Leaf Storm, though I feel that might be pushing it.
 
#12
I question why Embirch's family gets Giga Drain via level, but not Absorb and Mega Drain. I know there's precedents for it (Accelgor, Virizion [although it's a legendary with a set movepool theme and doesn't really count]), but it seems odd that we have Giga Drain available as a starting move and not Absorb or Mega Drain.

Leaf Tornado might be cool-it's definitely a nice flavor move and a potential replacement for Giga Drain as a low-level levelup attack. Fire Pledge, however...look, the only things that get it are the 45 starters/evolutions of starters. Not even the elemental monkeys get them-and the monkeys get Blaze, Overgrow, and Torrent via DW. Distributionwise, it makes about as much sense as Cyclohm getting Frost Breath.

As for Chlorophyll...yeah, I agree we should keep this. Makes sense flavorwise, not too broken.
 
#13
Just popping in to add that Leaf Tornado is fine, but under no circumstances should we give Pyroak Leaf Storm. It would basically give Pyroak massive extraordinarily powerful coverage, and one of the main reasons Oak isn't overpowering is because it has a lot of coverage moves with relatively low power (besides Fire Blast).
 
#14
Just popping in to add that Leaf Tornado is fine, but under no circumstances should we give Pyroak Leaf Storm. It would basically give Pyroak massive extraordinarily powerful coverage, and one of the main reasons Oak isn't overpowering is because it has a lot of coverage moves with relatively low power (besides Fire Blast).
He already has Wood Hammer, though (which doesn't have drawbacks thanks to Rock Head), and a lot of people run Brave.
 
#15
Pyroak is much more balanced then Cyclohm, to say the least, so I'd go for keeping him exactly the way he is.

I'm less worried about flavor and more about balance. Just give him Chlorophyll on all three stages as the hidden ability and call it a day.
 

Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
CAP Head Mod
#16
Assessment 1:

Abilities:

Keep Leaf Guard for pre-vos, Keep Chlorophyll as line Hidden Ability.

Non-TM Attacks: Add Absorb (transition to GD), Add Heat Crash, All Flame Burst, Add Leaf Tornado, Keep Inferno. Remove Leaf Blade (Flarelm Lv 0), Remove Blaze Kick (Egg).

TMs: Remove Brick Break/Flash Cannon/Fling/Reflect (not 4th Gen), Remove Echoed Voice. Keep Round, Low Sweep, Flame Charge, Incinerate, Dragon Tail, Add Bulldoze.

Assessment 1 Movepool:

Embirch:

5th Gen Level-Up Moves:
0 Bullet Seed
0 Sweet Scent
5 Absorb
7 Growth
10 Ember
13 Leech Seed
17 Flame Wheel
25 Giga Drain
28 Leaf Tornado
34 Fire Spin
37 Petal Dance
43 Flame Burst
46 Synthesis
49 Lava Plume

Egg Moves:
Aromatherapy
Counter
DragonBreath
Earth Power
GrassWhistle
Inferno
Natural Gift
Psybeam
Revenge
Sand Tomb
Seed Bomb
Water Sport

5th Gen TMs:
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Façade
TM43 Flame Charge
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM47 Low Sweep
TM48 Round
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM59 Incinerate
TM61 Will-o-Wisp
TM70 Flash
TM75 Swords Dance
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
HM04 Strength

Pyroak:

5th Gen Level-Up Moves:
0 Wood Hammer
0 Flare Blitz
0 Bullet Seed
0 Sweet Scent
5 Absorb
7 Growth
10 Ember
13 Leech Seed
17 Flame Wheel
25 Giga Drain
28 Leaf Tornado
34 Fire Spin
37 Petal Dance
42 Iron Defense
42 Amnesia
47 Flame Burst
56 Synthesis
62 Lava Plume
71 Zap Cannon
77 Heat Crash

5th Gen TMs:
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Façade
TM43 Flame Charge
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM47 Low Sweep
TM48 Round
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM59 Incinerate
TM61 Will-o-Wisp
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Dragon Tail
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
HM04 Strength
 
#19
Why would we need to remove Blaze Kick and Flash Cannon? (Flash Cannon in particular is an excellent flavor move for Oak.) Also, Flame Burst seems surprisingly high-level relative to its power.
 
#20
Does he really need to lose Leaf Blade and Flare Blitz? Yes they can be better than FB and WH, but not most of the time.
^Seconding. Leaf Blade is really helpful on Flarelm, since otherwise you have to get Seed Bomb (Egg) for a reliable physical Grass STAB until he evolves. And without Blaze Kick, Pyroak is pretty stuck for a physical Fire STAB should Flare Blitz be disabled (Flame Wheel?). Both uses are situational, but I don't think they really need to go. Otherwise, everything looks fine.
 
#21
^^
I don't like Blaze Kick flavor wise, he has not really Kicking legs, he should be focusing on it's arms (leaf blade is fine), one move i like is Hammer Arm, he has what i would call hammers in those guns, kind of like metagross, and fire/grass/ground hit better anything fighting does (and he already has low kick (which works better than blaze kick thanks to it's legs being "low")), so i think Hammer Arm wouldn't really be such a big move (make it event if you want it to work for it), lotough i undestand if it would make him a little to much
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
#23
Does he really need to lose Leaf Blade and Flare Blitz? Yes they can be better than FB and WH, but not most of the time.
Unless I am missing something, Flare Blitz is still in the movepool.

As for Leaf Blade, I am a huge flavor person, and I see no blade like leaf on Pyroak, so I don't see why he should get it. Besides, Seed Bomb not only is fantastic for flavor, but it is also a perfectly good move.
 
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