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Discussion CAP 5th Generation Revamp: Pyroak

Discussion in 'Policy Center' started by Deck Knight, Sep 9, 2011.

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  1. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    This thread will discuss the revamping to Pyroak.

    The following is all the canonical data for Pyroak line:

    CAP 3: Pyroak
    Concept: Bulky special-attacker with unique defensive typing

    Embirch (open)

    Embirch:

    [​IMG]
    Height: 3’ 3”
    Weight: 61.6 lbs / 28 kg
    Evolution: Embirch -> Level 21 -> Flarelm -> Level 42 -> Pyroak
    Type: Fire/Grass
    Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Superior senses in volcanic or brushfire areas.
    Grass: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming “powder” attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Superior senses in tall grass and forest areas. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

    Abilities:
    Rock Head: (Innate) This Pokemon’s hard body prevents it from taking recoil damage from moves such as Double-Edge, Flare Blitz, and Head Smash.
    Battle Armor: (Innate) This Pokemon’s thick armor prevents it from taking critical hits.

    Stats: 60 / 40 / 55 / 65 / 50 / 50

    HP: 90
    Atk: Rank 2
    Def: Rank 2
    SpA: Rank 3
    SpD: Rank 2
    Spe: 50
    Size Class: 2
    Weight Class: 3
    Base Rank Total: 13

    4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
    0 Bullet Seed
    0 Sweet Scent
    5 Growth
    9 Ember
    13 Leech Seed
    17 Flame Wheel
    21 Giga Drain
    25 Fire Spin
    28 Petal Dance
    34 Synthesis
    37 Lava Plume

    Egg Moves:
    Aromatherapy
    Counter
    DragonBreath
    GrassWhistle
    Psybeam
    Revenge
    Sand Tomb
    Water Sport

    4th Gen Tutor Moves:
    AncientPower
    Block
    Counter
    Double-Edge
    Earth Power
    Headbutt
    Heat Wave
    Iron Defense
    Low Kick
    Mimic
    Mud-Slap
    Seed Bomb
    Snore
    Synthesis
    Worry Seed


    4th Gen TMs:
    TM06 Toxic
    TM09 Bullet Seed
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM19 Giga Drain
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 SolarBeam
    TM23 Iron Tail
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM39 Rock Tomb
    TM42 Façade
    TM43 Secret Power
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM50 Overheat
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM58 Endure
    TM61 Will-o-Wisp
    TM70 Flash
    TM75 Swords Dance
    TM76 Stealth Rock
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM82 Sleep Talk
    TM83 Natural Gift
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM90 Substitute
    HM04 Strength
    HM06 Rock Smash
    HM08 Rock Climb
    Flarelm (open)
    Flarelm:

    [​IMG]
    Height: 5’ 1”
    Weight: 123.2 lbs / 56 kg
    Evolution: Embirch -> Level 21 -> Flarelm -> Level 42 -> Pyroak
    Type: Fire/Grass
    Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Superior senses in volcanic or brushfire areas.
    Grass: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming “powder” attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Superior senses in tall grass and forest areas. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

    Abilities:
    Rock Head: (Innate) This Pokemon’s hard body prevents it from taking recoil damage from moves such as Double-Edge, Flare Blitz, and Head Smash.
    Battle Armor: (Innate) This Pokemon’s thick armor prevents it from taking critical hits.

    Stats: 90 / 55 / 85 / 80 / 70 / 55 Speed

    HP: 100
    Atk: Rank 2
    Def: Rank 3
    SpA: Rank 3
    SpD: Rank 3
    Spe: 55
    Size Class: 3
    Weight Class: 4
    Base Rank Total: 16

    4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
    0 Bullet Seed
    0 Sweet Scent
    5 Growth
    9 Ember
    13 Leech Seed
    17 Flame Wheel
    21 Giga Drain
    28 Fire Spin
    32 Petal Dance
    39 Synthesis
    43 Lava Plume

    Egg Moves:
    Aromatherapy
    Counter
    DragonBreath
    GrassWhistle
    Psybeam
    Revenge
    Sand Tomb
    Water Sport

    4th Gen Tutor Moves:
    AncientPower
    Block
    Counter
    Double-Edge
    Earth Power
    Headbutt
    Heat Wave
    Iron Defense
    Low Kick
    Mimic
    Mud-Slap
    Seed Bomb
    Snore
    Synthesis
    Worry Seed


    4th Gen TMs:
    TM06 Toxic
    TM09 Bullet Seed
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM19 Giga Drain
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 SolarBeam
    TM23 Iron Tail
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM39 Rock Tomb
    TM42 Façade
    TM43 Secret Power
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM50 Overheat
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM58 Endure
    TM61 Will-o-Wisp
    TM70 Flash
    TM75 Swords Dance
    TM76 Stealth Rock
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM82 Sleep Talk
    TM83 Natural Gift
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM90 Substitute
    HM04 Strength
    HM06 Rock Smash
    HM08 Rock Climb
    Pyroak (open)
    Pyroak:

    [​IMG]
    Height: 6’ 9”
    Weight: 369.6 lbs / 168 kg
    Evolution: Embirch -> Level 21 -> Flarelm -> Level 42 -> Pyroak
    Type: Fire/Grass
    Fire: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Superior senses in volcanic or brushfire areas.
    Grass: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming “powder” attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Superior senses in tall grass and forest areas. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

    Abilities:
    Rock Head: (Innate) This Pokemon’s hard body prevents it from taking recoil damage from moves such as Double-Edge, Flare Blitz, and Head Smash.
    Battle Armor: (Innate) This Pokemon’s thick armor prevents it from taking critical hits.

    Stats: 120 / 70 / 105 / 95 / 90 / 60

    HP: 120
    Atk: Rank 3
    Def: Rank 4
    SpA: Rank 3
    SpD: Rank 3
    Spe: 60
    Size Class: 4
    Weight Class: 5
    Base Rank Total: 20

    4th Gen Level-Up Moves:
    0 Wood Hammer
    0 Flare Blitz
    0 Bullet Seed
    0 Sweet Scent
    5 Growth
    9 Ember
    13 Leech Seed
    17 Flame Wheel
    21 Giga Drain
    28 Fire Spin
    36 Petal Dance
    42 Iron Defense
    42 Amnesia
    48 Synthesis
    54 Lava Plume
    60 Zap Cannon

    Egg Moves:
    Aromatherapy
    Counter
    DragonBreath
    GrassWhistle
    Psybeam
    Revenge
    Sand Tomb
    Water Sport

    4th Gen Tutor Moves:
    AncientPower
    Block
    Counter
    Double-Edge
    Earth Power
    Headbutt
    Heat Wave
    Iron Defense
    Low Kick
    Mimic
    Mud-Slap
    Seed Bomb
    Snore
    Synthesis
    Worry Seed

    4th Gen TMs:
    TM05 Roar
    TM06 Toxic
    TM09 Bullet Seed
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM19 Giga Drain
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 SolarBeam
    TM23 Iron Tail
    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM39 Rock Tomb
    TM42 Façade
    TM43 Secret Power
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM50 Overheat
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM58 Endure
    TM61 Will-o-Wisp
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM75 Swords Dance
    TM76 Stealth Rock
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM82 Sleep Talk
    TM83 Natural Gift
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM90 Substitute
    HM04 Strength
    HM06 Rock Smash
    HM08 Rock Climb


    Notes: The pre-vo movepools for 4th Gen are effectively shortened versions of Pyroak's movepool. This will be the case for all of the CAP projects.

    1. 5th Generation Moves:

    Here is the list of 5th Generation moves.

    Level-up movepool:
    Are there any level-up moves that fit Pyroak?

    5th Gen Moves currently on Pyroak:
    Inferno
    Incinerate

    TM Moves: What TMS should Pyroak learn in addition to any currently existing ones.

    Note: Round is the only new universal TM.

    5th Gen (and other) added TMs currently on Pyroak:
    Brick Break
    Reflect
    Flame Charge
    Low Sweep
    Round
    Echoed Voice
    Incinerate
    Dragon Tail

    2. Hidden Ability

    Pyroak's current Hidden Ability is Chlorophyll, which does fit its typing and is generally conducive to its abilities, especially offensively. Additionally, Embirch and Flarelm were given Leaf Guard in lieu of Rock Head and their limited movepool did not include the high recoil moves. Should their hidden abilities be separated as they have been, or consolidated?

    Potential abilities:

    This is a list of abilities which fit Pyroak's typing and enhance either its offensive or defensive profile:
    Chlorophyll
    Drought
    Flame Body
    Flash Fire
    Flower Gift
    Harvest
    Heatproof
    Leaf Guard
    Magma Armor
    Solar Power
    White Smoke

    3. Older Generation Moves

    Are there any older moves that were missed that might be viable on Pyroak? A check over the moves indicates that Pyroak possesses basically every relevant STAB, so unless there is good reasoning for a move (and remember, weaker moves do have properties in ASB that can be useful in combinations), it will be unlikely that Pyroak gets any other moves.

    Discussion Guidelines:

    Movepools are assumed to be stripped down to 4th Gen level. 5th Gen added moves are listed for convenience. If you propose an addition of a move, please provide at least two sentences with reasoning consistent with the flavor or competitive needs of the Pokemon. Do the same with abilities: The key here is reasoning. CAPs are already fairly strong, so if you can make a solid argument for an expansion (be it even something as simple as the Pokemon's theme.)
  2. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    Flame burst should be added somewhere on Oak for flavour reasons, but other than that, I'm happy with it's current Fifth Generation moves. It is pretty powerful, but it's average stats prevent it from being amazing. It has a nice movepool, and a fitting (and useful) DW ability.
  3. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    I agree with flame burst, but other than that I personally think Pyroak is fine: large movepool, good abilities, but limited from being truly dominant by subpar stats.
  4. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    I agree with Flame Burst, and also, for similar reasons, might suggest Flame Charge, as most fire types get it. But those are both just really for flavor. Outside of that there is not much I think it needs.

    As for the abilities, Chlorophyll seems like it was a good choice to begin with. The only other one that I think makes sense both competitively and flavor wise is Solar Power. As Pyroak was obviously designed more with Power in mind than speed, Solar Power might make even more sense. As long as the power doesn't seem like too much (which I doubt it would), then I might say that Solar Power is the best choice, with Chlorophyll being a close second.
  5. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    imo Solar Power is overpowering....think of Sheer Force Cyclohm....but with stronger Fire STAB.
  6. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    The thing with Solar Power though is its more like a Life Orb to Sheer Force's all-typed Expert Belt.


    Solar Power: (Innate) When in bright sunlight, this Pokemon burns solar energy and 1 HP/action to increase the Base Attack Power of all their special attacks by two (2).

    So effectively in sunlight Pyroak would have a slow drain on its bulk, but would be more powerful, but only with special attacks. (Solar Power wouldn't boost, for example, Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer) It also loses the HP regardless of whether it attacks or not, although in sun it will have a boosted Synthesis anyway.

    For fire moves, Inferno also seems appropriate.

    What about grass moves? Leaf Tornado? (older moves: Magical Leaf?)

    And as far as TMs for Pyroak, I think Bulldoze would complement Earthquake well. With rare exceptions, everything that learns EQ learns Bulldoze.
  7. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

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    With solar power, that would be the reason that I would buy pyroak, which not a good thing because that means I think I can exploit its advantage (in the case its DW ability). Basically, I'm trying to imply that the only reason I wold by Pyroak is if some part of it is broken.

    Now, after my success with overcoat, I'm going to try and get Pyroak Harvest.

    The thing is, grass = plants, plants = harvesting, so it makes sense flvourwise. And if your trying to make it a bulky attack then re-use of enigma berries could be very, very helpful.

    Also, I'm not against sheer force, lol.
  8. Ragnarokalex

    Ragnarokalex

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    ummmmm.....what? Im sorry but for the most part i cant really understand what your saying for the first part of that, and i think that harvest should be reserved more for tree-like pokemon, or ones where the production of berries is more prevailant flavor-wise. Honestly i think that Chlorophyll is a fine ability since it rounds Pyroak out nicely, he has decent bulk for survivability, rockhead and very powerful recoil attacks to maintain a strong offensive front, and Cholorophyll to keep speed competitive. It keeps him a very nice, well-rounded poke that doesnt really need a whole lot of tweaking IMO. Flame Burst would make sense though, since its almost like a bomb going off on a foe, which would fit very nicely with Pyroaks arm-cannon concept.
  9. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    Not convinced. Essentially Pyroak has to take one action every couple rounds to recover a ton of HP with Sun synthesis. And it's not like all it has is its stupidly powerful Fire Blast-it can make use of its other moves too. Fire Blast is just insanely powerful icing.
  10. Gerard

    Gerard

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    While i have not a lot of experience with Pyroak, i think he should get Heat Crash, not really overpowered when you have recoiless Flare Blitz and fit's the Tank-like-image of Piroak, Chlorophyll is a nice ability since his speed is the only thing really lacking, but he shouldn't get Solar Power nor Flower Gift, he has enough recovery to easily make up for it (leech seed, giga drain, synthesis (or not at all in FG's case)) and with aromatherapy, Leaf Guard, is fairly useless (more considering Oak's speed to set up the sun), Harvest is the only one i think would be interesting on Pyroak with unlimited enigma berries, but i think Chloropyll is stilll the right choice

    PS: +SpA Solar Power Pyroak's FB (in the sun) = (12 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 1.5) = 21.5 (before type effectiveness)
  11. TravelLog

    TravelLog

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    I think Fire Pledge might be nice. It'd certainly be interesting to see the pledge moves in actual use, though they would by default almost certainly be used in combination.

    Furthermore, I think Leaf Tornado would be appropriate. If we wanted to give it a powerful special move, Leaf Storm, though I feel that might be pushing it.
  12. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    I question why Embirch's family gets Giga Drain via level, but not Absorb and Mega Drain. I know there's precedents for it (Accelgor, Virizion [although it's a legendary with a set movepool theme and doesn't really count]), but it seems odd that we have Giga Drain available as a starting move and not Absorb or Mega Drain.

    Leaf Tornado might be cool-it's definitely a nice flavor move and a potential replacement for Giga Drain as a low-level levelup attack. Fire Pledge, however...look, the only things that get it are the 45 starters/evolutions of starters. Not even the elemental monkeys get them-and the monkeys get Blaze, Overgrow, and Torrent via DW. Distributionwise, it makes about as much sense as Cyclohm getting Frost Breath.

    As for Chlorophyll...yeah, I agree we should keep this. Makes sense flavorwise, not too broken.
  13. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    Just popping in to add that Leaf Tornado is fine, but under no circumstances should we give Pyroak Leaf Storm. It would basically give Pyroak massive extraordinarily powerful coverage, and one of the main reasons Oak isn't overpowering is because it has a lot of coverage moves with relatively low power (besides Fire Blast).
  14. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    He already has Wood Hammer, though (which doesn't have drawbacks thanks to Rock Head), and a lot of people run Brave.
  15. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    Pyroak is much more balanced then Cyclohm, to say the least, so I'd go for keeping him exactly the way he is.

    I'm less worried about flavor and more about balance. Just give him Chlorophyll on all three stages as the hidden ability and call it a day.
  16. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    Assessment 1:

    Abilities:

    Keep Leaf Guard for pre-vos, Keep Chlorophyll as line Hidden Ability.

    Non-TM Attacks: Add Absorb (transition to GD), Add Heat Crash, All Flame Burst, Add Leaf Tornado, Keep Inferno. Remove Leaf Blade (Flarelm Lv 0), Remove Blaze Kick (Egg).

    TMs: Remove Brick Break/Flash Cannon/Fling/Reflect (not 4th Gen), Remove Echoed Voice. Keep Round, Low Sweep, Flame Charge, Incinerate, Dragon Tail, Add Bulldoze.

    Assessment 1 Movepool:

    Embirch:

    5th Gen Level-Up Moves:
    0 Bullet Seed
    0 Sweet Scent
    5 Absorb
    7 Growth
    10 Ember
    13 Leech Seed
    17 Flame Wheel
    25 Giga Drain
    28 Leaf Tornado
    34 Fire Spin
    37 Petal Dance
    43 Flame Burst
    46 Synthesis
    49 Lava Plume

    Egg Moves:
    Aromatherapy
    Counter
    DragonBreath
    Earth Power
    GrassWhistle
    Inferno
    Natural Gift
    Psybeam
    Revenge
    Sand Tomb
    Seed Bomb
    Water Sport

    5th Gen TMs:
    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 SolarBeam
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM39 Rock Tomb
    TM42 Façade
    TM43 Flame Charge
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM47 Low Sweep
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-o-Wisp
    TM70 Flash
    TM75 Swords Dance
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM90 Substitute
    HM04 Strength

    Pyroak:

    5th Gen Level-Up Moves:
    0 Wood Hammer
    0 Flare Blitz
    0 Bullet Seed
    0 Sweet Scent
    5 Absorb
    7 Growth
    10 Ember
    13 Leech Seed
    17 Flame Wheel
    25 Giga Drain
    28 Leaf Tornado
    34 Fire Spin
    37 Petal Dance
    42 Iron Defense
    42 Amnesia
    47 Flame Burst
    56 Synthesis
    62 Lava Plume
    71 Zap Cannon
    77 Heat Crash

    5th Gen TMs:
    TM05 Roar
    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 SolarBeam
    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM32 Double Team
    TM35 Flamethrower
    TM38 Fire Blast
    TM39 Rock Tomb
    TM42 Façade
    TM43 Flame Charge
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM47 Low Sweep
    TM48 Round
    TM50 Overheat
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM59 Incinerate
    TM61 Will-o-Wisp
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM75 Swords Dance
    TM78 Bulldoze
    TM80 Rock Slide
    TM82 Dragon Tail
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM90 Substitute
    HM04 Strength
  17. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    Looks great Deck. I'm happy with this, no other suggestions.
  18. Arcanite

    Arcanite

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    Does he really need to lose Leaf Blade and Flare Blitz? Yes they can be better than FB and WH, but not most of the time.
  19. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Why would we need to remove Blaze Kick and Flash Cannon? (Flash Cannon in particular is an excellent flavor move for Oak.) Also, Flame Burst seems surprisingly high-level relative to its power.
  20. Dummy007

    Dummy007

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    ^Seconding. Leaf Blade is really helpful on Flarelm, since otherwise you have to get Seed Bomb (Egg) for a reliable physical Grass STAB until he evolves. And without Blaze Kick, Pyroak is pretty stuck for a physical Fire STAB should Flare Blitz be disabled (Flame Wheel?). Both uses are situational, but I don't think they really need to go. Otherwise, everything looks fine.
  21. Gerard

    Gerard

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    ^^
    I don't like Blaze Kick flavor wise, he has not really Kicking legs, he should be focusing on it's arms (leaf blade is fine), one move i like is Hammer Arm, he has what i would call hammers in those guns, kind of like metagross, and fire/grass/ground hit better anything fighting does (and he already has low kick (which works better than blaze kick thanks to it's legs being "low")), so i think Hammer Arm wouldn't really be such a big move (make it event if you want it to work for it), lotough i undestand if it would make him a little to much
  22. Metal Bagon

    Metal Bagon

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    ^
    Seconding, I did have a rant but I stuffed up and it got deleted. Gerard sums it up better anyway.
  23. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Unless I am missing something, Flare Blitz is still in the movepool.

    As for Leaf Blade, I am a huge flavor person, and I see no blade like leaf on Pyroak, so I don't see why he should get it. Besides, Seed Bomb not only is fantastic for flavor, but it is also a perfectly good move.
  24. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    Im pretty sure Arcanite meant Blaze Kick instead of Flare Blitz (which imo should have been kept, no reason at all to take it off).
  25. Temperantia

    Temperantia

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    Namely because Pyroak looks as if it would try to kick something, it would likely end up tipping over from its upper body weight.
    That's just my impression.
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