CAP 6 CAP 6 - Attacking Moves Discussion - See Other Thread

[darkie]

This is our Pokémon:

Name: Decentralizer
Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

Type: Water / Fight
Ability: Unaware
Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe

For the record, the current top 10 on the CAP server are:

1. Stratagem
2. Revenankh
3. Fidgit
4. Tyranitar
5. Zapdos
6. Syclant
7. Blissey
8. Heatran
9. Scizor
10. Pyroak

An "Attacking Move" is a move that deals significant damage to an opponent. All other moves are considered "Non-Attacking Moves". As a general rule, any move that can be used under Taunt, is considered to be an Attacking Move. However, there are a few exceptional moves that deal a small amount of damage, but their primary battle purpose is based on a secondary move effect, and Are therefore considered Non-Attacking moves. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered to be Non-Attacking Moves, even though they can be used under Taunt. The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered Attacking or Non-Attacking Moves for a given pokemon.

All moves will be categorized as Competitive, Non-Competitive, or Required.

• Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given pokemon. This categorization is applicable depending on the pokemon. Sometimes a move will be competitive on one pokemon and non-competitive for another.
• Required moves are moves that must be included in the final movepool, and are generally not up for discussion. A list of commonly Required moves can be found in X-Act's movepool guide.

Here is a list to get the discussion started:
-Waterfall
-Aqua Tail
-Close Combat
-Brick Break
-Aqua Jet
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Punch
-Hydro Pump
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-ThunderPunch
-Ice Punch
-Stone Edge

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Because darkie locked the thread before I can comment in it.

Just a thought; how much damage would earthquake do to a roosting zapdos? Enough to kill after a stone edge on the switch?

Adamant CAP6 using Earthquake vs 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Zapdos: 45.83% - 54.17%

Adamant LO CAP6 using Earthquake vs 252 HP / 220 Bold Zapdos: 59.38% - 70.31%

I won't go into Choice Band since you can't switch moves as easy as the other two scenes. It could take a Zapdos out with a well-placed SE/EQ combo, but Water/Fight moves already covers what Earthquake would take out so it probably rare to see an earthquaking CAP6 anytime soon.


I like to throw special attention towards Cross Chop, Fire Punch, and Fire Blast. All three of those moves are competitive viable for CAP6. Cross Chop get's mad attention because it doesn't craps all over it's defensive stat unlike Close Combat does despite it's accuracy. Fire Punch and Fire Blast get mentions because they deal with Skarm, Meta, Jirchai, Scizor, and Forrty. All of them can potentially wall this Pokemon to hell and back with they're defensive stat if not for the help of a fire move.

 

[Hyra]

I'll support pretty much everything on there fully besides Mach Punch combined with Aqua Jet, which I am iffy on. Besides that, a nice defensive Fighting move like Cross Chop would be nice to see.

 

[Kharozz]

What about Focus Punch? Most pokemon have it anyways, and be good for subpunch tanking sets, IMO. Not so sure about bullet punch, but possible. Aside from that, all of the other moves sure look okay for CAP6

 

[Tsukikage]

-Waterfall- Yes, its an HM, so it won't affect the movepool, and is an overall good STAB

-Aqua Tail- It won't be used as much as Waterfall anyway

-Close Combat- I wouldn't mind seeing this, but I doubt it would be very useful because of the defense drops, this being a bulky Pokemon and all

-Brick Break- Yes

-Aqua Jet- I'd like to see some kind of priority whether it be this or Mach Punch

-Mach Punch- see Aqua Jet

-Bullet Punch- I doubt it will ever be used. It doesn't get STAB, and could possibly get STAB on priority moves

-Hydro Pump- Sure, but I don't think it would see as much use as Surf even with the higher BP because of the PP and accuracy issues

-Surf- I'm pretty sure every Water type gets this, so I don't see why not

-Ice Beam- See Surf

-ThunderPunch- The only thing this would hit is other Water types, and if we want them to be a check, I don't think it should get this

-Ice Punch- Ice Punch, I can see however. It gives a physical Ice move, allowing it to deal with dragons and flyers somewhat.

-Stone Edge- I know this was somewhat controversial, so I added it. I absolutely think it should get Stone Edge. Helps deal with Gyarados, and a host of other threats. Zapdos can take a Stone Edge, so it is not the end of the world if it gets hit.

 

[darkie]

Feel free to bring up other moves, too, guys. I just listed a couple off the top of my head.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

No one ever said these would be its only attacks. This is the topic to discuss controversial moves. I think only Superpower and Grass Knot could be controversial from your list.

 

[Bass]

Let's not merely list moves here. Try to back up your move choices with solid reasoning, be it "Non-Competitive, Competitive, or Required", according to the OP.

 

[tennisace]

How about Low Kick? Heavy damage on most of it's targets, and nearly matches Close Combat in power with most of it's targets (save Jirachi, but it's kinda dumb to stay in on it, for fear of Psychic/Zen Headbutt).

Anyway, I'm against more than one priority move. This would allow it to run a -speed nature, and go mixed. I think we should force it to go physical. Besides, Aqua Jet takes care of Fidgit and Stratagem, while Low Kick takes care of things like Metagross, Tyranitar (!!), Heatran (!!), and possibly Scizor. It would be super-effective against Blissey, but it's full of hot air and only about 81 lbs.

 

[Solstice]

I would like to suggest Body Slam, because the chance of paralysis can benefit the Pokemon when its counter switch it. Competitively it could help against Zapdos and Togekiss, and is overall a good tool for an offensive tank.

 

[tennisace]

I would like to suggest Body Slam, because the chance of paralysis can benefit the Pokemon when its counter switch it. Competitively it could help against Zapdos and Togekiss, and is overall a good tool for an offensive tank.

I'm against this, if only for reasons of space. It isn't a TM, Tutor, or Egg move, therefore it would be taking a level up move spot, which could be better used by something else. Plus, where are you going to fit it on a (Water Move)/(Fighting Move)/(Support/Coverage Move)/(Recovery Move) set? Its viable but pretty unnecessary.

 

[flu]

I will add the addition of Cross Chop, if someone doesn't mind the defense drops on CAP6.

I will also add Water Spout, it would be pretty good and something new. Not many have water spout.

I'll suggest Ice Shard also I think it would be very useful, especially finishing off Sr switch in Zapdos that try to outspeed you.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Anyway, I'm against more than one priority move. This would allow it to run a -speed nature, and go mixed.

Wouldn't it use a -Speed nature anyway in order to go mixed and still keeps it's defense in prefect shape?

having more than one priority move doesn't necessarily seem bad to me. Most of it's check/counter can easily handle taking a stabbed Aqua Jet and/or Mach Punch to the face and slap it stupid with SE/Powerful stab attacks. I'm don't see the harm in having two priority moves within one set, but maybe they're a scenario I'm not seeing yet.

 

[billymills]

Yes to all the moves in the opening post, yes to earthquake.

No to fire blast/flamethrower. Even Fire punch is pushing it (vote on this one).

I'd like to add Vacuum Wave, not exactly a crucial move, nor really all that competitive, but better off mentioned. Could work on a more special based set.

I'd rather the only priority moves this gets are STABs, but Ice Shard and Bullet Punch are generally useless. They aren't necessary to remove.

I'd also mention Double-Edge and Outrage, decent 120 moves that would help with type coverage. Waterfall/Outrage works great. Better off everything gets mentioned quickly.

 

[RobertM]

How about Hammer Arm? With unaware the defense boost ignoring effect of a boosted CH rate matters less and I'd prefer the higher accuracy of hammer arm. Maybe High Jump Kick as a riskier STAB option? And if we're going to give it Surf and Hydro pump, why not give it Aura Sphere for full special STAB?

 

[Bass]

I'd rather the only priority moves this gets are STABs, but Ice Shard and Bullet Punch are generally useless. They aren't necessary to remove.

How can you say that Ice Shard is useless? It does give our Pokemon a viable option against Salamence, who can generally switch in to our Pokemon's STABs with impunity. Yes, it will probably get other ice moves, but the priority in this case is something to consider when facing the DD and Roost sets in particular.

I'd also mention Double-Edge and Outrage, decent 120 moves that would help with type coverage. Waterfall/Outrage works great. Better off everything gets mentioned quickly.

Outrage is really only going to hit one Pokemon (Salamence, which Ice moves will do more damage to anyway), not to mention that being trapped kind of hinders our Pokemon's tanking abilities. I don't really think Double Edge improves type coverage either.

 

[nardd]

Would counter be viable as long as CAP6 got some form of recovery? I know it's common on a lot of bulky fighters (i.e. hariyama) so couldn't ours pull it off as well? Or perhaps it's more of a gimmicky move

 

[Lawman]

I will go over my arguements and several other moves soon, but here is just a quick overview of my opinions, which i will be able to back up later. (Its just because it is getting late.)

-Waterfall - I feel that this would be perfectly viable, and will most likely be one of the main STABs.
-Aqua Tail - Depends on the Art imo, I would rather use Waterfall for the flinch and accuracy anyways.
-Close Combat - I am not completely sure about this, but again it wouldnt be overpowered at all with it.
-Brick Break - Screen Breaking is useful, so I can see this move being used often.
-Aqua Jet - see below
-Mach Punch - I fully support this, as long as the priority moves are either one or the other
-Bullet Punch - Prolly not it is rudundent with Fighting in terms of SE hits.
-Hydro Pump - Why not? it would be useful on mixed sets and not too powerful as to be used often
-Surf - IIRC every evolved water pokemon gets it anyways
-Ice Beam - see above
-ThunderPunch - Bulky Waters like Suicune and Slowbro won't be taking much from it anyways, but I feel that Gyarados could be a potential counter without this. I am somewhat on the fence with this move
-Ice Punch - I don't want CAP to be dominated by flying types, so yea, i support this.
-Stone Edge - I have had a change of heart on stone edge and also support it. Zapdos will be smart enough to not switch in to it, and even then it will be able to roost of the damage and stall it out with pressure, allowing it to still counter CAP6. Plus, flying types are a bitch on the server, and nailing that togekiss on the switch-in would be oh so sweet.
Fire Punch - I would be willing to give cap6 this as it would wall several steels types anyways, and the ones that could threaten it are physically bulky enough to take a nonstab se move anyways.

I'll post more arguements with possible calculations later, im out for the night now

 

[tennisace]

Un-STAB Outrage sucks, it's been proven time and again. Double-Edge falls into the same category as Body Slam. I'm also against all fire moves, there's barely any precedent, and this can slap steels silly either way.

No Aura Sphere, really exclusive and not needed. Plus where are we going to fit it?

@nardd: this is offensive moves only.

 

[Lawman]

tennis, I think he meant Counter as an attack move but best used in conjunction with a healing move. He wasn't saying give CAP6 a specific support move, just stating an potentially effective way an offensive move could be used.

 

[ferron]

aqua jet, mach punch, bullet punch, etc.- a priority move is always a good thing, but lets not go overboard. one would be good, two would be pushing it. to those mentioning vacuum wave, its a tutor move that it is pretty much guarrenteed to get but would be useless without nasty plot.

fire moves-ummmm...no. this poke will have enough coverage without these moves.

ice punch-i prefer this over ice shard due to the power and that (rather low) chance to freeze. plus getting this instead of ice shard would help with the number of priority moves.

close combat-this poke needs to be able to take a hit and this move hurts that idea. remember that unaware only ignores the opponent's stat changes, not it's.

cross chop-great move, but lets face it, its a bit over used. why not use something like vital throw, jump kick or sky uppercut which are used less often but are still good enough to find a home here.

stone edge and rock slide-i approve of both. they help out with the coverage without over powering the poke.

brick break-amazing move. and it might be necessary on this poke to check some pokes that might try to sweep behind a double wall.

waterfall and aqua tail-i prefer waterfall both for the better accuracy and the chance to flinch slower pokes.

thunderpunch-is countering other bulky waters that important?

ice beam, surf, hydro pump, aura sphere, etc.- ummm....i doubt how good a mixed attacker this poke will be, nasty plot might be necessary. but who knows, we could have a possible new chainchomp in the making. for that reason i can't say no to these moves.

low kick-would have never thought of this, but if grass knot works than so can this.

outrage-though this is a tutor move, this kills its ability to control its game due to how unspecific this poke may need to check as we wish it to.

 

[RobertM]

Does unaware hit through light screen/reflect? Does unaware affect close combat's defense lowering?

 

[ferron]

unaware doesnt ignore the double screens because they do not affect stats. it also only ignores the enemy's stat changes, not yours.

 

[armogohma]

Just throwing this out there: how about punishment? It could work well with its ability, but wouldn't be too devastating as none of the top 10 are weak to it (and three resist it).

 

[Deck Knight]

Some move arounds for Base Power continuity:

STAB Physical:

Water:

-Aqua Jet
-Waterfall
-Aqua Tail

Fighting:

-Mach Punch
-Brick Break
-Close Combat

Additions:

Double Kick - has the potential to destroy a lot of Substitute employing strategies, especially SubCM Stratagem and Subpunching Tyranitar.

Cross Chop is a decent, non defense crushing alternative to Close Combat.

Focus Punch Part fighting = good move.

Non-STAB Physical:
-Stone Edge
-Rock Slide
-Ice Punch
-Avalanche
-Payback
-Punishment (per ferron)

These are only a few viable moves I support for non-STAB physical. Ice Shard is iffy for me, if only because of how expeditiously it deals with Dragon Dancers. I realize Unaware already curbs their power, but with 75 Base Speed, it still generally has to absorb a hit, even if unboosted.

Thunderpunch and Fire Punch seem too much like needless filler. Granted that Fire Punch would be the final nail in Scizor's coffin, given Unaware ignoring its Swords Dances. Thunderpunch gives it too much power against bulky waters that can otherwise hold it in check.

Earthquake I would be willing to discuss, seeing as it does nothing against the more common AppRotom and Zapdos, though it makes Luxray and Electivire fairly incapable of countering.

I do, however, support Ice and Rock attacks, as well as Payback for an option against ickle ghosties, and Punishment for a big hit on stat-uppers in addition to working well with Unaware. Water/Fighting/Ice/Rock/Dark has good coverage given a choice of any 3.

Special STAB:

Water:
-Water Pulse
-Surf
-Hydro Pump

Fighting:

Additions:
-Vacuum Wave - Special priority move could be useful on some kind of strange Specs or mix set.
-Focus Blast - See Above

Non-STAB Special:
-Ice Beam
-Blizzard
-Ancientpower
-Shadow Ball

Special movepool is pretty much like physical, with the same types, Shadow Ball replacing Dark-type Payback.

This should be enough for it to do some good things competitively without completely being able to outflank its checks.