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CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 1

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by jas61292, Jul 30, 2013.

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  1. Harbinger of Peace

    Harbinger of Peace

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    (This is just to point out that Doom desire may be used in multiple ways. I'm not trying to poll jump, just brainstorming on how doom desire can be used)

    I'm really liking the idea of Doom Desire. It can be a move that, stops your momentum, but in return provides you instant momentum. I believe there is some potential to use this in several different ways. Since Doom desire forces switches, maybe you can wear the opposong pokemon down with hazards, toxic, and the incoming doom desire. Or maybe CAP6 can volt switch / u turn out into a check to the incoming pokemon, which is further helped by hazards. Maybe the pokemon can even set up a boost on the incoming pokemon, or phaze, or just hammer on the offense on the dd resist. I think there are several ways to utilize doom desire, and also think that we can somehow use another move alongside it (possibly a move that forces switches)to help.

    (Sorry if I wasn't too concise, I was trying to hurry)
  2. Deoxymoron

    Deoxymoron

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    I think that out of the ideas discussed so far, I am most interested in Doom Desire. I feel like it could create a more interesting metagame, one that has more to do with outsmarting your opponent and predicting switches. Belly Drum, on the other hand, does the exact opposite. If it's given to a pokemon with high Speed or powerful priority moves, then it will always be either devastating or useless. Imagine Crobat coming in on CB Earthquake, getting off a Belly Drum and sweeping. Of course, this specific strategy would be fairly easy to stop, but I digress.

    Here's an example of Doom Desire's unique ability to force switches and break walls. (Sorry, this moveset is a bit specific, but it helps prove my point.) Imagine a Steel/Ground Pokemon with high Special Attack and decent speed, with a Life Orb and a moveset of Doom Desire/Earth Power/ Protect/Volt Switch. Earth Power hits almost everything that resists Doom Desire, and hits a great number of them super-effectively. Protect allows for stall tactics and scouting in addition to ticking down the timer for Doom Desire. Volt switch rounds the set out, serving several functions. It hits Water-types that resist Doom Desire and Flying-types that are immune to Earth Power, it helps keep momentum, and it can escape Shadow Tag Chandelure and Air Balloon Magnezone.

    At the same time, it can be played around with careful switching and prediction. Nothing on this set does much to specially defensive Ferrothorn, and bulky Water-types have a decent survival rate. A clever player can also utilize a series of switches, with almost no drawbacks as long as they play their cards right and Stealth Rock isn't on the field.

    What this means is you have a powerful wallbreaking tool (one that could probably utilize Soak as well) that could work on nearly any team and force players to look two, three, five turns ahead and actually strategize, instead of relying on a Terrakion sweep. In other words, I think that this idea lends itself to an interesting development and an interesting playtest.

    As a side note, I think a pokemon that uses Power Trick to shift between an offensive and defensive presence could be very interesting. Sort of like Voodoom in CAPacity. Something like Toxic/Power Trick/ Earthquake/Recover.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    When thinking about Gravity's usefulness many people make the above question to themselves: ''is Gravity really the move i want to use on the free turn that i get?''. This is a very legit question and probably the most important one to answer in order to determine Gravity's potential. Below i will demonstrate two examples of made up Pokemon that would commonly want to use Gravity and would prefer it over other good boosting moves such as Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Shell Smash, and even the currently popular Belly Drum.

    Example #1
    • Typing: Ghost / Fighting
    • Ability: Anything
    • Stat spread: Preferably all around defensive, slow and a physical attacker
    • Example moveset: Gravity / WoW / DynamicPunch / Whirlwind
    Now let me explain why this Pokemon would commonly want to use Gravity in its moveset and how Gravity helps it enhance certain roles. First of all without Gravity up #1 it cant reliably use D-Punch as nobody wants to rely on a coinflip to do damage. As a bonus, WoW gets perfect accuracy for a few turns as well. Furthermore, #1 can spinblock and thus keep up Spikes, taking advantage of them with Gravity, Whirwind, and DynamicPunch (which forces a ton of switches). Finally, thanks to the lack of a strong Ghost STAB move Flying-types would want to switch into #1 to sponge its Fighting-type moves allowing it to wear them down with Spikes provided Gravity is up.

    Example #2
    • Typing: Ground / Bug
    • Stat Spread: Physically offensive with preferably good Speed
    • Ability: Hustle
    • Special Condition: No move that hits super effectively Flying-types and other types commonly associated with them in OU (Dragon and Ground)
    • Example moveset: Gravity / Earthquake / Megahorn / Rock Polish
    Gravity would be a must on this Pokemon for two reasons. First, without the accuracy boost Megahorn becomes almost unusable due to Hustle. Second, #2 has no move to hit Flying-types for good damage and Gravity fixes that. With Gravity and Rock Polish #2 could act kinda like a double booster. Use Gravity against slower teams and blow past them with huge Attack + high powered STABs + flawless neutral coverage or use Rock Polish against offensive teams for a clean-up (which, however, will be very unreliable). Of 'course Spikes and other moves that benefit from Gravity could be added into the mix to give more versatility to #2.

    As you can see both examples can make good use of Gravity and have reasons to use it over the usually superior setup moves. For example let's compare Gravity and Belly Drum in those two examples. For the first example Belly Drum would certainly be viable but would have an entirely different use, an offensive one, meaning that the Gravity set would still have a unique and useful niche. On the second example Belly Drum wouldn't help at all as power clearly is not the problem, accuracy and coverage are (and while power can make coverage almost a non-issue, Pokemon such as Skarmory, Balloon Heatran, and Landorus-T are still issues).

    Don't get caught up in the specific details i mentioned in those examples, i am not saying that if we chose Gravity those are our only options, i merely wanted to show how Gravity was useful with a few examples that i made up in 10 minutes. I am sure that our community can find more and enough to make for a good and learning CAP experience.
  4. Full_Korbe

    Full_Korbe

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    I'd love to suggest Splash, but I really doubt we can find anything relevant. Oh well.

    Soak has already be mentioned, and I must say it can be really interesting. I fear a bit we overcentralize on it, because on the right Pokemon (and that's what we are aiming), it can be really powerful : if it has enough speed to outspeed most relevant threat, little will stop our CAP.

    Then, there are all the moves which turn from "meh" to "great" with Serene Grace, Technician or Simple like Low Sweep, Bulldoze, Razor Shell, Storm Throw, Dragon Tail, Charge Beam etc...

    To name a few moves less powerful (and in fact, maybe not even viable), I'd say Spite which, with Pressure, can put a quick end to 8 PP Moves (granted it can take two of those hits). Disable is already puts to good use by Gengar, but aside from him, who can use it ? Same for Torment which only user is Heatran, and it's often viewed. Charge has a slight interesting niche : giving this SpDef boost may let our CAP take some hits easier. But it requires good speed. Really good speed (or Prankster). Water Sport and Mud Sport could be more interesting if the types affected were more Spam-able (Water Sport to take a Victini-hits could be quite hilarious though).
    I've never seen good use of Brine, despite having insane power on wounded targets. If a wall comes to take the hit, only to find it even more powerful than Hydro Pump, it makes heavy damages. Combined with hazards, weather or special status, more often than not it will hit at full power.
    Telekinesis seems fun too despite being a poor man No Guard.
    Oh, and who can use Coil well ? All Pokemon having it are generally crappy (with the exception of Elektross who is just not good), so yeah. Same for Belly Drum, with only Linoone as a "not crappy user".

    Snatch looks really great on paper, because not only it neuters a boost (or a Sub, or even an heal) but it gives to you as well. But most users are either too frail to take an hit (and so it becomes really risky), too slow (Spiritomb with a Sword Dance is still not really frightening) or simply don't have the stat / movepool to use it. Blissey is already tight on moveslots and can't use any boosts. The only barely viable user I can see is Crobat, which has enough Atk, Speed and bulk to steal a boost and use it, but it must then forgets one of Taunt / Roost / Brave Bird / U-Turn / Toxic / Super Fang. You can't base a set on Snatch because it depends of your opponent's set / Mons, but to disrupt your opponent strategy.
    The point I really like is that most traits required to pull off a good Snatch-set (good bulk / typing but with some holes to make mons like Terrakion want to set-up on it, correct coverage) are also required for most other moves already mentioned because Torment, Gravity etc... all use a moveslot, so the Pokemon needs to be good with only 3 moves left. Why is it good ? Because we can't base the Pokemon only on Snatch : the strength of Snatch lies in its inpredictability.

    Excuse for the (very) numerous mistakes, English is not my native language.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  5. JacobM

    JacobM

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    I'll bring it up again since it's getting close and yesterday's post didn't get any attention (hey, a new page, new day, perhaps some new eyes), but Dragon Tail has huge potential. Of the moves suggested, I believe it is one that has the most versatility, and one that we could have a solid, 4-move combination. Remember para-shuffler Dragonite? It is the only set I can remember that used DT and it had one "corner" of the move figured out: spreading status. But a Pokemon built around DT would certainly have many routes to explore; a boosting set similar to NU Lickilicky, a hazard abuser, or buying turns by forcing out a counter.

    What gives DT problems? Well Substitutes for one, so we can play with multi-hit moves. And it's negative priority is important, how will we work around that?

    Dragon Tail will give us lots of options to work with; it doesn't even remotely lock us into any typing or ability, or even a playstyle. It can give us room to explore other less-commonly used moves, and it is a move whose mechanics will still be different and fun to play with.
  6. Harbinger of Peace

    Harbinger of Peace

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    Dragon Tail is a phazing move, and it's effects are well known in OU.
  7. JacobM

    JacobM

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    Dragon Tail is a damaging phazing move that cannot be stopped by taunt, but can be stopped by subs. We've seen plenty of whirlwind and roar, but how does this move differ? We've never seen a Pokemon with all the right tools to abuse Dragon Tail (except, as I mentioned, a one-dimensional Dragonite set, which is clearly outclassed by its other sets, and some usage in NU). DT would be a nice springboard to perhaps use moves like Gravity, Bonemerang, and (I hate to even say it, but) a still incredibly unusable Snatch.

    If we look at Explosion, Belly Drum, and Doom Desire, we know what those first two moves generally do; a damaging move and a boosting move. If DT being a phazing move is a problem, those options should be called into question as well.
  8. P2X7

    P2X7

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    Thought I might throw my opinion in on a couple different things:

    First, I support Reflect Type, as we don't really have a pokemon in the current metagame that uses type changing moves, and I think it would be an interesting concept to explore. However, it does have a few notable flaws, specifically losing STAB and relying on the opponent it's used on, which is why I suggest Conversion as an option. Conversion shares some of the same benefits as Reflect Type, BUT it allows the user to have a little more control over which type it becomes, can't be messed up if the
    opponent switches, and allows the pokemon to retain STAB, albeit of a different type.

    Also, I feel that ability changing moves such as Skill Swap, Simple Beam, or Gastro Acid could provide an interesting concept as well, as quite a few pokemon rely on their abilities, and said moves don't really have any users.

    I would also like to suggest multi turn moves like Dig, Fly, or, most notably, Sky Drop. Although these moves are usually regarded as a gimmick, I personally think that they have a little bit of potential, and that a pokemon that utilizes these moves could make for a fun concept.

    In addition, although already discussed for the most part, I feel that Gravity would be a good move to build around, as it could lead to several interesting designs. Also, I
    think that the other field effect moves such as Wonder Room, Trick Room, etc. have a bit of potential for a design as well, although usually being a bit gimmicky.
  9. jynx KB

    jynx KB

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    There is very little that hasn't been said, but just to show that there is more support out there. Doom Desire and by extension Future Sight has a unique niche in that the 2 turn delay can actually be used as an advantage, unlike Fly or Dig in which the obvious move is to switch to a resist. The fact that it hits with a second attack is perfect for pinning, as a Pokemon is unlikely to resist 2 different types of attacks at once.

    The entire premise is based on maneuvering the opponent, and after all, isn't that what Pokemon is all about?
  10. Harbinger of Peace

    Harbinger of Peace

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    Still, Dragon Tail's effects are well known in OU, and this wouldn't be too interesting of a concept to use, because there are plenty of pokemon who phaze already. Snatch is cool, but too opponent-dependent to base an entire pokemon around. I'm all for doom desire, though.
  11. CarbonTheSecond

    CarbonTheSecond

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    Building on this a tad, the potential for these moves to increase the damage done by Toxic/Leech Seed/etc. is out there, and, if coupled with pressure, then can also effectively stall out 8 PP moves. Still, the direct damage done by (most of) these attacks is incredibly easy to counter, so unless we're going to give a variety of trapping moves (which will quickly become predictable) or Shadow Tag (*shudder*) to this CAP , then I don't really see the concept becoming that viable.
  12. Seed

    Seed

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    I really support the idea of using a move like Soak or Doom Desire to force switches and either rack up hazards or set up (Belly Drum). This would bring new life to these moves and it's one of the few concepts that I find genuinely unique.
  13. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    I think the mistake that people are making is that they are neglecting to account for the real OU metagame in talking about various moves. Most of these moves have "interesting" effects and it's easy to come up with possibilities for them when we haven't really seen them in action, thus overrating them. However, the simple fact is that they got their chance, in multiple metagames - and in some cases, several generations. We need to ask why these moves don't work out currently, and come up with plausible ways to make them work out. If that can't happen for a given move, then it's probably beyond saving.
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  14. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

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    It's nothing new but I wanted to add my voice to the horde of people supporting Doom Desire. It's one of the most unique and underexplored move effects in Pokemon, and though I've tried Doom Desire Jirachi myself, I definitely don't think it's an optimum user of the move, nor does it have the potential tools we could give our CAP to fully take advantage of Doom Desire's unique effect. If I talked about the benefits of increasing the pressure on the opponent, or wallbreaking, or the different ways to best use Doom Desire, I'd be treading old ground so I'll simply say it fits the concept very well and move on to other moves.

    I don't like Belly Drum because the idea behind it is too simple. It can be interesting trying to set up the conditions to get a sweep but in terms of how it plays, it's horribly binary as people have said.

    Gravity has an interesting effect and although we probably wouldn't make anything That different to Landorus there are plenty of uncommonly used low accuracy moves that we could partner it with. So I would ask that when people think about the merit of Gravity, they also think of the many low accuracy moves such as Inferno, Zap Cannon, Dynamicpunch etc. that could also be part of this CAP fulfilling its concept.

    I am very strongly against Explosion being a focus for this CAP. As jas said, it's a 4th moveslot move, but unlike jas, I think this is a huge negative in terms of choosing it for this concept. It provides very little direction for the CAP other than making sure that we choose Explosion in battle, it does a decent amount of damage. There's very little to discuss other than how we can give it a decent amount of attacking power. Snore. It's so unoriginal. As Deck said, it covers zero new ground.
  15. Torterragatr

    Torterragatr

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    my quick thoughts on the other moves so I can feel like I contributed :p

    Dig, Fly, Sky Drop: Dig and Fly are kind of bad moves in general so I don't think they could work unless we made CAP a trapper, but if it was a trapper it would have better things to do anyway. Sky Drop seems more interesting, as it makes Toxic/Leech Seed stalling easier and deals damage at the same time.

    Wonder Room is just plain bad, considering we have the moves Secret Sword and Psyshock which do essentially the same thing with less setup.

    Coil is okay, but the problem is that it is basically Bulk Up with an extra accuracy boost, so there is not much more to learn from that. Maybe it can improve Inferno/Zap Cannon? I don't know.

    Gravity: While it's true that there is no Pokémon right now that has Gravity as its most well-known set, the biggest selling point of the move is its surprise factor, and creating a Pokémon based around Gravity makes it much easier to predict and play around. I'm not outright opposed to it, but it's a thought. Snatch is cool too, but it has the same problem as Gravity.

    Brine seems good on paper, but even doubled the step up in power from Hydro Pump is small. I don't think that CAP would use the situational Brine over Hydro Pump unless it didn't get it.

    Gastro Acid is good in theory, but it depends on having the opposing Pokémon being dependent on its ability. Plus, a Pokémon using Gastro Acid usually has better ways to be using its free turns.

    Conversion is a little bit too inconsistent. At least with Reflect Type you can see what type you're turning into without depending on chance.

    As for new ideas, Conversion 2 could force switches, especially against Choice users. If you are slower than the Conversion 2 user (maybe give CAP Prankster?) it would be hard to counter with direct attacks.

    Overall favorites: Sky Drop, Reflect Type, Skill Swap, maaybe Doom Desire, everything else I said in my other post besides Explosion (jaggedangel made a good point about it).
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  16. Scorpio

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    I personally am sorta uncomfortable with Doom Desire, since it's an exclusive move (like jas was worrying about), but I do like Future Sight, for many of the same reasons as many other people put it.

    Also, Conversion 2 would sorta be hard to pull off successfully, especially against Dragon-types, due to A. Dragon-type hitting everything in Gen V neutrally except Dragon (SE) or Steel, and B. Dragon-types always carrying at least one move that can hit Steel-types SE.
  17. SotheBlacKnight

    SotheBlacKnight

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    The Problem about Conversion 2 is that the opponent needs to use a move for you to activate it. And that could mean wasting a move slot with either sub/protect, sack a teammate or letting the CAP take a hit. It's a cool idea but it be very hard to make it viable.
  18. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    A question for all the Doom Desire supporters: what exactly makes jirachi a bad user of the move, and what exactly would make a good abuser of the move? Please don't answer with more power/bulk, because quite frankly, every pokemon wants more power and bulk. Im looking for specific intangibles that make Jirachi a bad abuser of the move.

    I ask this because every time I try to imagine a pokemon who would be a good abuser of Doom Desire i come up with a steel type pokemon with a good special attack stat, either a good special or physical defense stat, and u turn or volt switch, which basically describes Jirachi to the tee. If Jirachi has everything it could possibly need to abuse Doom Desire but still doesn't, then maybe Doom Desire is simply impossible to save. However, if doom desire is saveable, then Jirachi is missing something specific that would help it abuse Doom Desire, and i would like to what yall think that might be.
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  19. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

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    I very much agree with this; people are suggesting moves that have Pokemon tailored to using them already that never use them.
  20. Jaiho

    Jaiho can't stop won't stop moving
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    Jirachi is a bad user of Doom Desire for many reasons, one of which is in fact, that it doesn't have enough power. Base 100 attack stat is not very good in 5th gen, with things like Latios, Scizor, Terrakion, Garchomp and Thundurus-T roaming the tier, yet still not broken. Why would Jirachi use Doom Desire if the Pokemon they want to switch out can take the hits? Secondly, Jirachi has neither a secondary typing nor the coverage moves to hit the Pokemon that would switch into a resisted Doom Desire, which is Water, Fire, Steel, and Electric. The optimal coverage moves would be ground type moves, which Jirachi doesn't have, and would be rather weak when unstabbed and off what is considered a low base 100 attack. Plus, what Jirachi can do abusing Serene Grace+Iron head and paralysis far outshines most of Jirachi's sets, especially a move that Jirachi is unable to use well.
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  21. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    It's not that Jirachi is a bad user of Doom Desire, it's that Jirachi is a much better user of Body Slam, Thunder, Iron Head, Wish, and Calm Mind, Choice Scarf, and U-Turn. The problem is that Jirachi is the best user of ParaFlinch in the entire game and can use so many strategies better than Doom Desire. As an example, take Breloom. Breloom is one of the best users of Focus Punch in the game. It has Spore, priority to pick off opponents that don't need a Focus Punching, and it can heal with Toxic Orb and Poison Heal. However, Focus Punch is a poor choice on Breloom because Breloom would rather be launching nuclear-powered Bullet Seeds and hitting below the belt with Low Sweep. The same problem exists for Jirachi: if Jirachi didn't have anything better to do, it would probably use Doom Desire a lot more.

    However, if you're looking for specific ways to make Doom Desire better, you could give a Pokemon a better secondary typing to punish common Steel-resistant Pokemon, higher Special Attack to hit harder, or Volt Switch to further weaken the opponent. Don't think of Doom Desire as some unknown, mysterious move that needs tons of team support to work. It's just a Special Steel-type attack that can be used in tandem with another attack two turns later, and it can be supported just like any Steel-type Special attacker, except it really enjoys U-Turn or Volt Switch support.
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  22. loco1234

    loco1234

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    The biggest issue Jirachi has is typing and coverage. It won't be hitting most of what switches into DD effectively. Its only real option is to U-Turn out to something else, and that doesn't really put the kind of pressure on the opponent that being able to threaten common DD switch-ins would. Ideally, it would have Special Ground or Fire coverage and STAB on it, but the closest it comes to that is Fire Punch, which does not get STAB. My ideal DD user has either Steel/Fire or Steel/Ground typing, high SpA, decent bulk. Basically, Heatran if Heatran got Doom Desire, or a Steel/Ground type that has a similar stat spread to Heatran.
  23. capefeather

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    All right, let's make this official. Belly Drum will be the main focus of this concept, and we will be discussing this move in more detail in another Concept Assessment thread. Having multiple Concept Assessment threads isn't new; it happened with CAP 2 when Rising_Dusk wanted to explore the possibility of Multitype in conjunction with Sketch. It's kind of ironic that I bring up that example because I'm about to explain why I'm not making Doom Desire the main move.

    Essentially, when we compare Belly Drum to Doom Desire, we're looking at two different approaches to the rest of the process. The unknowns of Belly Drum are more on the building process (i.e. how to make Belly Drum work), while the unknowns of Doom Desire are more on the playtest (i.e. what impact a viable Doom Desire has on the metagame). Considering we're already in Concept Assessment, I think that the process would be served better with the unknowns in the building process. The whole point of Concept Assessment is to determine a concrete goal to take to a playtest, while the rest of the process serves to discuss how to meet that goal. With Doom Desire, we're dealing with a goal that's unfamiliar to the vast majority of people. It just sounds nice, but how many people can actually intelligently discuss how it might work within the context of the OU metagame? We can only really speculate, for the most part. Belly Drum at least has an element of battling that everybody has a surface-level familiarity with - the risk and reward of setting up - and just needs a good amount of assessment.

    Other moves have been discussed in this thread, and I intend for other moves to be part of the next discussion. It's just that Belly Drum will be the foundation.

    and now for a captain falcon video
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