1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 3

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by darkie, Dec 3, 2008.

?

Which concept?

  1. Decentralizer

    38.8%
  2. Great Tank of China

    38.8%
  3. Tier Tossup

    22.4%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Public Relations

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    6,061
    Same thing as always. Vote for one (not that you can vote for any more.).



    Unfortunately I could not cut it down to 2 in this poll, so a fourth will unfortunately have to be done.
  2. Infiltrator

    Infiltrator

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,007
    Voted Great Tank of China.
  3. sbc

    sbc

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    2,061
    uh lol I go to bed come on the next day and I've missed a poll :-/

    ah well hopefully this brisk pace with keep up the momentum.

    The first and last ones are basically the same thing anyway so I just voted for the first at random. I really hope we create something that stops Stratagem cold outside of Blissey.

    Not sure about the middle one, it seems that Electric/Dragon is begging for Rhyperior-like stats (Specsmence v2) and Zapdos is a)walled by Pyroak and b) Heatran doesn't give a shit that its walled by almost any special wall or bulky water since it is revenge killing and cleaning all day long. As long as Syclant, Scizor, Shaymin-S exist Heatran will be used a lot so making a pokemon to stop it is pretty meh.
  4. ferron

    ferron

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    542
    Tier-Tossup by TehPiplupMan
    if made correctly it would give a challenge to the tops while possibly openning the to lower tier pokes.
  5. petrie911

    petrie911

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    859
    Tier-Tossup is my choice.

    Checking high tiers while being beaten by low tiers should be decentralizing in itself, so no need to vote for decentralizer. As for "Great Tank", I just don't like the idea for some reason. Of course, nothing says that our Tier-Tossip pokemon can't be a tankish sort of thing, anyways.
  6. Griffin

    Griffin

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    332
    I voted Great Tank of China, because both of the other Pokémon seem like they would require a huge amount of theorymon, and would most likely turn out not to be very good.
  7. Lightning Storm

    Lightning Storm

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    191
    Decentralizer again.

    Now, If one of the options gets 50% of the votes or more, it is automatically the winner, no 4th poll, right?
  8. Frosty

    Frosty
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2008
    Messages:
    731
    Once again I voted for the decentralizer.

    I don't like the tier tossup one because, if you look close enough, it won't be hard to find counters (using the term loosely here), or at least checks for more powerful pokes, even Ubers. For example, a Choice Scarf Vital Spirit Primeape is an efficient counter against Darkrai, Ludicolo with enough Spdef investment is a nice Kyogre counter, because able to shrug off water attacks with its x4 resistance and fight back with SE STAB Grass Knots. We also have Hariyama as arguably the best tyranitar counter there is, Lanturn as a great counter to most bolt beamers (like Starmie), and the list goes on. And yet, you don't see them on OU/Ubers much, do you? No you don't, since they are not good enough to fight on those tiers.

    My point is that a poke designed to play really well against the upper tiers and not well against lower tiers is a dangerous concept, since you need it to be rather centralizing to assure that the weaker pokes will be used to counter it, despite not being efficient enough when CAP6 is not around, and that is not a good thing. The decentralizer has the advantage of restraining itself only to the 5 most used pokes, since they (at least Heatran, who was the most used poke on the cap server on september) are present on pretty much every team, which is rather annoying. It is a clearer concept and easier to develop, which is a big plus.


    As for the tank concept...err....the comments given have too much poll-jumping for my tastes, so I will just comment on the "official" description. "A tank designed to take hits, and dish a lot of them out as well" describes a good share of pokes around. We have the likes of Rhyperior, Suicune, Donphan, Togekiss to an extent and some others. They all have good defensive stats (therefore able to take some hits) and are capable of dishing a lot of damage, either through their naturally high attacking stats or stat-up moves like Calm Mind. Bear with me here, but I can't see how the metagame will benefit from a poke designed to take hits well and dish them out as well. But that is me.
  9. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    meh, all the interesting and specified ones have been voted out..

    Well I can see mild attraction to all 3, reserving my vote until I see some more reasoning.
  10. ferron

    ferron

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    542
    i originally like the decentralizer as well, but then i started thinking that "if it is the perfect counter to the top 5, won't it itself eventually become overcentralized due to its usefulness?" this thought moved me away from it immediately.
  11. ParadOxymoron

    ParadOxymoron

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    Messages:
    403
    Great Tank of China.

    I do hope to evolve Camerupt someday in CAP 1, and the Decentralizer would kind of take away from that. Plus, an Dragon/Electric would be pretty awesome.
  12. Wyverii

    Wyverii "What I cannot create, I do not understand."
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    798
    Somehow I think people have poll jumped this concept so much i'll be surprised if any other types have a chance if it's selected. Shame. Anyway all the more interesting concepts have died out so i'll just wait a while and see how the polls go.
  13. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
    is a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Facebook Manager

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,336
    Ok

    1) Tier Tossup requires WAY WAY WAY too much theorymon. You would have to identify what BL/UU pokemon would counter it, and then build it so that it actually counters pokemon in the OU game, as well as fall to those lesser pokemon.

    2) I am against the great tank of china for one reason. The descriptions was too descriptive that people are all thinking about this flippin' Electric/Dragon that Tennis and Shik have been wishing for since ever. Just reading the posts in this topic you can tell that people are starting to agree with those types even though a) it hasnt won yet, and b) we haven't gotten to the typing discussion/polls.

    3) I support the decentralizer because trying to make one pokemon that counters a majority of the major pokemon in the metgame (3 out of 5) seems easier to do without having half the pokemon in peoples minds already.
  14. Not Scicky

    Not Scicky

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,310
    The reason that everyone who votes for great tank wants an elec/dragon is because the people who don't want one don't vote it :S

    I for one am against an elec/dragon tbh :S

    But I did vote Great Tank :3
  15. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
    is a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Facebook Manager

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,336
    I'm not saying I don't want an electric/dragon, I think it might be neat, but i don't like the fact that its typing is spelled out almost exactly in the comments of the concept much more than in past ones. CAP4 just mentioned "lack of dark weak" pokemon, and CAP5 mentioned no type at all in the comments.
  16. Darkflagrance

    Darkflagrance

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    793
    It's not really much of a choice; I foresee Great Tank and Decentralizer ending up at a similar goal; Wall will just be more general than Decentralizer, while Decentralizer, in becoming a counter of many pokemon of varied typing, will likely have to place some emphasis on its special stats to counter physicals and specials among the top 5.

    Also, if done right, Decentralizer should require another poll to determine exactly what it counters, considering I've seen some lack of consensus in this area, and it would be difficult for a pokemon to completely counter both physical and special versions of the top 5 threats without itself becoming overcentralizing; this discussion will happen no matter what, but we can affect how organized it is.
  17. dmlaw

    dmlaw

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    32
    I'm not particularly crazy about any of the remaining options.
    Great Tank could be fun, but it seems like the topic description has made Electric/Dragon a done deal, and that removes a big chunk of the fun again. Tier Tossup is out for the exact reasons said by Frosty, so by process of elimination, I'm voting for Decentralizer. *sigh*
  18. Serenity

    Serenity

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    478
    Absolutely agreed 100%. I voted against the first two for the same exact reasons. Tier - Tossup is completely theorized while Great Wall, in my opinion, is strictly over-powered.
  19. Kamen Rider

    Kamen Rider

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    It was a hard decisioun, but I ended up picking decentralizer. Tier Tossup actually seems a lot like decentralizer, but it seems to be trying to do too much at once. Being able to both simulatiously deter OU top and encourage BL/UU seems like a balancing act that finding a middle ground may end up failing one objecttiev or both. Decentralizer only is tackling on side of the issue, so it seems like a much safer bet.

    As for Great Wall, Im a little concerned about all this obsession with a specific typing and build. Its fine to have a certain final product in mind, but you argue for each aspect in there own polls. This final product before we begins is exactly what caused EVO to fail. Also, even if its not the proponents intentions, the fact that it is the exact same type being rallied for, electric/dragon, that many people wanted in the Break the Mold concept makes it seems like the concept is secound to ensuring a electric/dragon will get made.
  20. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Messages:
    4,593
    Went with Great Tank of China again, no need for explantions now. The only thing I'm wondering now is who are the current top 5 OU in CAP?
  21. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,975
    Which is a major shame, because there are a lot of interesting unedited walling combinations. Steel/Ghost, Water/Ghost, Fighting/Flying, Dark/Psychic... there are lots of possible combinations. So, even if the Great Tank wins, dont be so quick into your judging. Electric/Dragon may be great, Electric/Dragon may be what "you are dying for", but this is not the only option.
  22. Drybones

    Drybones

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    128
    Voted Great Tank of China.

    The idea of a "decentralizing" pokemon seems logically flawed. Adding an awesome counter for the super used pokemon of CAP would indeed reduce the usage of said super used pokemon a negligible amount. But you know what else it would do? Give us a new super over-used pokemon-- namely the CAP6 omnicounter.

    Also, I would predict that we'd end up with fundamentally the same pokemon if we went for either tier tossup or decentralizer, and here's why: Wouldn't a decentralizer that counters the top used pokemon INVARIABLY end up being countered by some obscure ass lesser used pokemon? Wouldn't the tier tossup pokemon have to in some way do well against the top used pokemon to become OU if it were countered by UU pokes?

    So, I went for the great tank of china because a defensive electric type would be way cool, which to me is a perfectly legitimate reason to choose it when faced with the wonky alternatives.
  23. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,006
    My thoughts exactly. Because of this, and because of Decentralizer being a pretty good general goal, I voted for it.
  24. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Twitter Head

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    6,655
    What makes everyone think people won't push Electric/Dragon no matter what concept is chosen? Just because Sihk mentioned it in the explanation doesn't mean it's a "done deal", it just means it was mentioned to put the idea out early. Isn't that what all the other people did with their explanations, put things in there just to put ideas in everyone's head? Its no secret that, yes, I would love an Electric/Dragon. But it's kind of insulting to see people think that I would throw away anyone and everyone's opinions just to get what I want.
  25. darkie

    darkie mfw i see alison brie
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Public Relations

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    6,061
    I want to bring to attention the wording of the Decentralizer concept.

    Notice that it does not say counter; instead, it says the word "check", meaning that this guy would not have to directly switch-in. In effect, a theoretical 4x Fire-weak sweeper could check Heatran if it were fast enough to outspeed Timid Scarfed Heatran, while still OHKOing with some move. For a more realistic example, Garchomp was a good Lucario check. It could not switch-in, due to Hidden Power Ice, Aura Sphere, Close Combat, et al, inflicting heavy damage, but a Swords Dance Extremespeed did not OHKO Garchomp, who outsped and OHKOed with Earthquake.


    I really want to move this discussion away from theorymon. Even if all the arguments presented made sense, there really is no way to tell how CAP6 would really affect the metagame until we create something that is intended to decentralize the metagame.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)