CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 3

Which concept?


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darkie

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#1
Same thing as always. Vote for one (not that you can vote for any more.).

Name: Decentralizer
Description:A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

This is basically what Gormenghast wanted to do with Camerupt, but broader. I feel that specifically mentioning Scizor, Zapdos, and Heatran makes the concept too restrictive, but ideally this would be able to take at least two of these Pokemon on (Blissey does fthis for certain varients of Zapdos and Heatran). Unfortunately, there are very few type combos that do this, which is why I don't want to mention any specific Pokemon in the description.

Concept: The Great Tank of China
Description: A tank designed to take hits, and dish a lot of them out as well

This Pokemon is the one me and tennisace are basically dying for. AKA type1/type2 tank, attacking and walling (most likely specially biased). It would be like Rhyperior in a sense, except it would be aimed for at the special side of the spectrum. The movepool would be able to hit hard, and could probably assist the team with moves such as Spikes / Stealth Rock, as well as status moves such as T-Wave which is a given.

It would be able to counter Heatran (if we add an ability or something, such as Levitate) and it already completely owns Zapdos for the most part (HP Ice may be the only problem). We can make it this fully adapted to the OU environment countering many threats. We can also make it so that it is more like Rhyperior ability-wise being able to actually counter a lot of threats. The typing is really subjective but Electric / Dragon is currently what I am hoping for. The main idea though is a tank, likely special biased so it isn't a mini-Rhyperior.

Lets throw this in:
Name: Tier-Tossup
Description: Something that can handle top tier threats but falls to some lower pokemon

I am rather sick of the same group of Pokemon coming again and again. This could enrich the metagame by bringing some lesser seen Pokes into the OU area while reducing spammage of the EXTREMELY overused Pokes (and you know who I'm talking about..)
Unfortunately I could not cut it down to 2 in this poll, so a fourth will unfortunately have to be done.
 
#3
uh lol I go to bed come on the next day and I've missed a poll :-/

ah well hopefully this brisk pace with keep up the momentum.

The first and last ones are basically the same thing anyway so I just voted for the first at random. I really hope we create something that stops Stratagem cold outside of Blissey.

Not sure about the middle one, it seems that Electric/Dragon is begging for Rhyperior-like stats (Specsmence v2) and Zapdos is a)walled by Pyroak and b) Heatran doesn't give a shit that its walled by almost any special wall or bulky water since it is revenge killing and cleaning all day long. As long as Syclant, Scizor, Shaymin-S exist Heatran will be used a lot so making a pokemon to stop it is pretty meh.
 
#4
Tier-Tossup by TehPiplupMan
if made correctly it would give a challenge to the tops while possibly openning the to lower tier pokes.
 
#5
Tier-Tossup is my choice.

Checking high tiers while being beaten by low tiers should be decentralizing in itself, so no need to vote for decentralizer. As for "Great Tank", I just don't like the idea for some reason. Of course, nothing says that our Tier-Tossip pokemon can't be a tankish sort of thing, anyways.
 
#6
I voted Great Tank of China, because both of the other Pokémon seem like they would require a huge amount of theorymon, and would most likely turn out not to be very good.
 
#8
Once again I voted for the decentralizer.

I don't like the tier tossup one because, if you look close enough, it won't be hard to find counters (using the term loosely here), or at least checks for more powerful pokes, even Ubers. For example, a Choice Scarf Vital Spirit Primeape is an efficient counter against Darkrai, Ludicolo with enough Spdef investment is a nice Kyogre counter, because able to shrug off water attacks with its x4 resistance and fight back with SE STAB Grass Knots. We also have Hariyama as arguably the best tyranitar counter there is, Lanturn as a great counter to most bolt beamers (like Starmie), and the list goes on. And yet, you don't see them on OU/Ubers much, do you? No you don't, since they are not good enough to fight on those tiers.

My point is that a poke designed to play really well against the upper tiers and not well against lower tiers is a dangerous concept, since you need it to be rather centralizing to assure that the weaker pokes will be used to counter it, despite not being efficient enough when CAP6 is not around, and that is not a good thing. The decentralizer has the advantage of restraining itself only to the 5 most used pokes, since they (at least Heatran, who was the most used poke on the cap server on september) are present on pretty much every team, which is rather annoying. It is a clearer concept and easier to develop, which is a big plus.


As for the tank concept...err....the comments given have too much poll-jumping for my tastes, so I will just comment on the "official" description. "A tank designed to take hits, and dish a lot of them out as well" describes a good share of pokes around. We have the likes of Rhyperior, Suicune, Donphan, Togekiss to an extent and some others. They all have good defensive stats (therefore able to take some hits) and are capable of dishing a lot of damage, either through their naturally high attacking stats or stat-up moves like Calm Mind. Bear with me here, but I can't see how the metagame will benefit from a poke designed to take hits well and dish them out as well. But that is me.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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#9
meh, all the interesting and specified ones have been voted out..

Well I can see mild attraction to all 3, reserving my vote until I see some more reasoning.
 
#10
My point is that a poke designed to play really well against the upper tiers and not well against lower tiers is a dangerous concept, since you need it to be rather centralizing to assure that the weaker pokes will be used to counter it, despite not being efficient enough when CAP6 is not around, and that is not a good thing. The decentralizer has the advantage of restraining itself only to the 5 most used pokes, since they (at least Heatran, who was the most used poke on the cap server on september) are present on pretty much every team, which is rather annoying. It is a clearer concept and easier to develop, which is a big plus.
i originally like the decentralizer as well, but then i started thinking that "if it is the perfect counter to the top 5, won't it itself eventually become overcentralized due to its usefulness?" this thought moved me away from it immediately.
 
#11
Great Tank of China.

I do hope to evolve Camerupt someday in CAP 1, and the Decentralizer would kind of take away from that. Plus, an Dragon/Electric would be pretty awesome.
 
#12
Great Tank of China.

I do hope to evolve Camerupt someday in CAP 1, and the Decentralizer would kind of take away from that. Plus, an Dragon/Electric would be pretty awesome.
Somehow I think people have poll jumped this concept so much i'll be surprised if any other types have a chance if it's selected. Shame. Anyway all the more interesting concepts have died out so i'll just wait a while and see how the polls go.
 

RBG

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#13
Ok

1) Tier Tossup requires WAY WAY WAY too much theorymon. You would have to identify what BL/UU pokemon would counter it, and then build it so that it actually counters pokemon in the OU game, as well as fall to those lesser pokemon.

2) I am against the great tank of china for one reason. The descriptions was too descriptive that people are all thinking about this flippin' Electric/Dragon that Tennis and Shik have been wishing for since ever. Just reading the posts in this topic you can tell that people are starting to agree with those types even though a) it hasnt won yet, and b) we haven't gotten to the typing discussion/polls.

3) I support the decentralizer because trying to make one pokemon that counters a majority of the major pokemon in the metgame (3 out of 5) seems easier to do without having half the pokemon in peoples minds already.
 
#14
The reason that everyone who votes for great tank wants an elec/dragon is because the people who don't want one don't vote it :S

I for one am against an elec/dragon tbh :S

But I did vote Great Tank :3
 

RBG

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#15
I'm not saying I don't want an electric/dragon, I think it might be neat, but i don't like the fact that its typing is spelled out almost exactly in the comments of the concept much more than in past ones. CAP4 just mentioned "lack of dark weak" pokemon, and CAP5 mentioned no type at all in the comments.
 
#16
It's not really much of a choice; I foresee Great Tank and Decentralizer ending up at a similar goal; Wall will just be more general than Decentralizer, while Decentralizer, in becoming a counter of many pokemon of varied typing, will likely have to place some emphasis on its special stats to counter physicals and specials among the top 5.

Also, if done right, Decentralizer should require another poll to determine exactly what it counters, considering I've seen some lack of consensus in this area, and it would be difficult for a pokemon to completely counter both physical and special versions of the top 5 threats without itself becoming overcentralizing; this discussion will happen no matter what, but we can affect how organized it is.
 
#17
I'm not particularly crazy about any of the remaining options.
Great Tank could be fun, but it seems like the topic description has made Electric/Dragon a done deal, and that removes a big chunk of the fun again. Tier Tossup is out for the exact reasons said by Frosty, so by process of elimination, I'm voting for Decentralizer. *sigh*
 
#18
Ok

1) Tier Tossup requires WAY WAY WAY too much theorymon. You would have to identify what BL/UU pokemon would counter it, and then build it so that it actually counters pokemon in the OU game, as well as fall to those lesser pokemon.

2) I am against the great tank of china for one reason. The descriptions was too descriptive that people are all thinking about this flippin' Electric/Dragon that Tennis and Shik have been wishing for since ever. Just reading the posts in this topic you can tell that people are starting to agree with those types even though a) it hasnt won yet, and b) we haven't gotten to the typing discussion/polls.

3) I support the decentralizer because trying to make one pokemon that counters a majority of the major pokemon in the metgame (3 out of 5) seems easier to do without having half the pokemon in peoples minds already.
Absolutely agreed 100%. I voted against the first two for the same exact reasons. Tier - Tossup is completely theorized while Great Wall, in my opinion, is strictly over-powered.
 
#19
It was a hard decisioun, but I ended up picking decentralizer. Tier Tossup actually seems a lot like decentralizer, but it seems to be trying to do too much at once. Being able to both simulatiously deter OU top and encourage BL/UU seems like a balancing act that finding a middle ground may end up failing one objecttiev or both. Decentralizer only is tackling on side of the issue, so it seems like a much safer bet.

As for Great Wall, Im a little concerned about all this obsession with a specific typing and build. Its fine to have a certain final product in mind, but you argue for each aspect in there own polls. This final product before we begins is exactly what caused EVO to fail. Also, even if its not the proponents intentions, the fact that it is the exact same type being rallied for, electric/dragon, that many people wanted in the Break the Mold concept makes it seems like the concept is secound to ensuring a electric/dragon will get made.
 

zarator

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#21
It was a hard decisioun, but I ended up picking decentralizer. Tier Tossup actually seems a lot like decentralizer, but it seems to be trying to do too much at once. Being able to both simulatiously deter OU top and encourage BL/UU seems like a balancing act that finding a middle ground may end up failing one objecttiev or both. Decentralizer only is tackling on side of the issue, so it seems like a much safer bet.

As for Great Wall, Im a little concerned about all this obsession with a specific typing and build. Its fine to have a certain final product in mind, but you argue for each aspect in there own polls. This final product before we begins is exactly what caused EVO to fail. Also, even if its not the proponents intentions, the fact that it is the exact same type being rallied for, electric/dragon, that many people wanted in the Break the Mold concept makes it seems like the concept is secound to ensuring a electric/dragon will get made.
Which is a major shame, because there are a lot of interesting unedited walling combinations. Steel/Ghost, Water/Ghost, Fighting/Flying, Dark/Psychic... there are lots of possible combinations. So, even if the Great Tank wins, dont be so quick into your judging. Electric/Dragon may be great, Electric/Dragon may be what "you are dying for", but this is not the only option.
 
#22
Voted Great Tank of China.

The idea of a "decentralizing" pokemon seems logically flawed. Adding an awesome counter for the super used pokemon of CAP would indeed reduce the usage of said super used pokemon a negligible amount. But you know what else it would do? Give us a new super over-used pokemon-- namely the CAP6 omnicounter.

Also, I would predict that we'd end up with fundamentally the same pokemon if we went for either tier tossup or decentralizer, and here's why: Wouldn't a decentralizer that counters the top used pokemon INVARIABLY end up being countered by some obscure ass lesser used pokemon? Wouldn't the tier tossup pokemon have to in some way do well against the top used pokemon to become OU if it were countered by UU pokes?

So, I went for the great tank of china because a defensive electric type would be way cool, which to me is a perfectly legitimate reason to choose it when faced with the wonky alternatives.
 

Mekkah

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#23
1) Tier Tossup requires WAY WAY WAY too much theorymon. You would have to identify what BL/UU pokemon would counter it, and then build it so that it actually counters pokemon in the OU game, as well as fall to those lesser pokemon.

2) I am against the great tank of china for one reason. The descriptions was too descriptive that people are all thinking about this flippin' Electric/Dragon that Tennis and Shik have been wishing for since ever. Just reading the posts in this topic you can tell that people are starting to agree with those types even though a) it hasnt won yet, and b) we haven't gotten to the typing discussion/polls.
My thoughts exactly. Because of this, and because of Decentralizer being a pretty good general goal, I voted for it.
 

tennisace

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#24
What makes everyone think people won't push Electric/Dragon no matter what concept is chosen? Just because Sihk mentioned it in the explanation doesn't mean it's a "done deal", it just means it was mentioned to put the idea out early. Isn't that what all the other people did with their explanations, put things in there just to put ideas in everyone's head? Its no secret that, yes, I would love an Electric/Dragon. But it's kind of insulting to see people think that I would throw away anyone and everyone's opinions just to get what I want.
 

darkie

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#25
I want to bring to attention the wording of the Decentralizer concept.

Notice that it does not say counter; instead, it says the word "check", meaning that this guy would not have to directly switch-in. In effect, a theoretical 4x Fire-weak sweeper could check Heatran if it were fast enough to outspeed Timid Scarfed Heatran, while still OHKOing with some move. For a more realistic example, Garchomp was a good Lucario check. It could not switch-in, due to Hidden Power Ice, Aura Sphere, Close Combat, et al, inflicting heavy damage, but a Swords Dance Extremespeed did not OHKO Garchomp, who outsped and OHKOed with Earthquake.


The idea of a "decentralizing" pokemon seems logically flawed. Adding an awesome counter for the super used pokemon of CAP would indeed reduce the usage of said super used pokemon a negligible amount. But you know what else it would do? Give us a new super over-used pokemon-- namely the CAP6 omnicounter.
I really want to move this discussion away from theorymon. Even if all the arguments presented made sense, there really is no way to tell how CAP6 would really affect the metagame until we create something that is intended to decentralize the metagame.
 
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